Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tiluvias99 09-02-04, 12:58 PM	Bando Warrior Adventures: As it is forbidden for Bando Warriors to go looking for fights and avoid them if at all possible, few Bando warriors ever become successful adventurers. However, those that do adventure often see such adventures as something that simply must be done, not for combat, but for a cause. Characteristics: Bando Warriors are highly skilled at unarmed combat, and eventually learn to excel at armed combat as well, extending the rigorous training taught for their body to apply to their weapons. They are extremely adept at evasion and counter attack, Bando Warriors gain no magical abilities of any kind, relying completely on their own mental and physical training. Alignment: Because of their strict code, very few Bando Warriors are evil, though they are not unheard of. Non-good Bando Warriors must learn to restrain themselves, if they wish to stay a member of the Bando community. Most Bando Warriors are neutral or good. Most Bando Warriors are lawful, but it is not a requirement. As long as a person can control himself while in the presence of their masters, they have the necessary discipline to train in Bando. Many Bando Warriors live completely separate lives, one in the dojo while the other lives at home. Many people would be astounded at the personality switch some Bando Warriors can make. Religion: While most Bando Warriors do not share a common deity, many practitioners of Bando worship Rao, the god of serenity and peace, or Zuoken. Background: Because many Bando Warriors share two completely different lives, their backgrounds are often completely different. From baker to cobbler, all are open to Bando as long as they have the discipline and dedication to work hard. Races: Among the humanoid races, the most common students of Bando are Humans and Dwarves. Dwarves often have a natural tendency towards law and discipline, and are thus almost perfect for the hard training that Bando requires. However, the study of Bando also leads to discomfort among Dwarves, for it is a natural tendency for them to wield heavy armor and weapons, while Bando focuses on the use of speed and evasion. Humans are the most likely to have split lives between their home life and their Bando life, and often adapt quickly to the change. Among the non-humanoids, Bando is extremely rare except for in the case of Hobgoblins, who surprisingly take extremely well to Bando. Other Classes: Because of their similar characteristics, Bando Warriors and Monks often get along famously, and more often than not become sparring partners. The pairing of a Bando Warrior and Monk in the same party is a deadly combination. Also, like the monk, the Bando Warrior usually has a hard time seeing eye to eye with the barbarian. Bando Warriors normally have a deep respect for Paladins for their fierce devotion and discipline, though can be annoyed at their inflexibility. The Bando Warrior and the Fighter respect each other as well, for they are both known for their combat ability. Role: Bando Warriors often fill the role as a front-line fighter, though not until the mid levels. At the early levels, party members may be annoyed at the Bando Warriors lack of ability, seeing him only as a waste of food and supplies or just plain orc fodder. However, at the higher levels, the Bando Warrior begins to truly show his mettle, and prove a valuable member of the party. Hit Die: d8 BAB: high (as fighter) Saves: poor fort, high ref, high will Class Skills The Bando Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Composure (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Int), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier 1 Unarmed Strike, Technique 2 Combat Reflexes, Roll With It 3 Staff Training 4 Quick Defense, Fancy Footwork +1 5 6 7 Karmic Sunder 8 9 Extension of the Hand 10 11 Stone-Faced Warrior 12 Fancy Footwork +2 13 Staff Mastery, Weapon Training 14 Combination Strike 15 16 Combo Finisher 17 Weapon Training 18 19 Combination Master 20 Fancy Footwork +3 Class Features: All of the following are class features of the Bando Warrior. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Bando Warriors begin their training with no weapon proficiencies except for unarmed strikes. They are not proficient in any types of armor or shields. Unarmed Strike: Bando Warriors are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. All Bando Warriors may choose to apply their dexterity modifier instead of his strength modifier to attack rolls with unarmed strikes. However, they deal the normal damage for a creature of their size, unless they succeed a technique check (see below). All Bando Warriors receive Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and thus does not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents that he attacks and can choose to do lethal or non-lethal damage at no penalty. A Bando Warrior’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or from elbows, knees, feet, his head, or even from hips and shoulders. Thus, a Bando Warrior may make unarmed strikes even with his hands full. A Bando Warrior can make an unarmed strike with his left hand as easily as he could with his right hand. If a Bando Warrior chooses to fight unarmed as if fighting with two weapons, the standard penalties apply, but he can make his primary attacks with either hand or foot and make his off-hand attacks with either hand or foot as well (but they are at 1/2 strength to damage). If the Bando Warrior elects to fight with two weapons with an unarmed strike and a manufactured weapon, the manufactured weapon may make the primary attack or the off-hand attack (even if the manufactured weapon is in the Bando Warrior’s primary hand). If the manufactured weapon is being wielded in both hands (or if he is wielding a manufactured weapon and a shield), then the Bando Warrior's unarmed strikes must be made as off-hand attacks. If the Bando Warrior is fighting with a weapoin in each hand, he cannot make additional unarmed strikes. A Bando Warrior’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells). If the Bando Warrior has a natural attack on a limb that would normally be used for an unarmed strike such as a claw at the end of an arm or a hoof on a leg, the Bando Warrior may use the base damage of that natural attack instead of his normal unarmed strike damage (determined by size) when attacking with that limb. Also, any spell, feat, or other effect that affects the Bando Warrior's natural attacks or unarmed strikes also affects the other. Thus, a Bando Warrior with the stunning fist feat could also make a stunning attack with a claw. This does not allow the Bando Warrior to gain multiple attacks with natural weapons. Also, if the Bando Warrior is using a weapon that serves as an extension of a limb (such as a pair of spiked gauntlets or spiked armor), when using that limb to attack the Bando Warrior may use the base damage of that weapon instead of his normal unarmed strike damage (determined by size). Also, any spell, feat, or other effect that affects the Bando Warrior's weapon or unarmed strike also affects the other. Thus, a Bando Warrior with the stunning fist feat could also make a stunning attack with a spiked gauntlet. Technique: Bando Warriors are taught to rely on speed and technique instead of strength. At the beginning of every combat round, the Bando Warrior makes a special technique check. He rolls a d20 and adds his Bando Warrior level and his intelligence modifier. If the Bando Warrior is a multi-class character, he adds half his BAB gained from other classes to this check. If the Bando Warrior designates that he is going to use the All-Out Defense action that round, he acts as if his Bando Warrior level was increased by 50% for that round (thus a fourth level Bando Warrior would gain a +6 bonus to his check while using the All-Out Defense action, instead of +4). If he has an armor check penalty, it applies to this roll, and if he is not proficient in armor he is wearing, it applies double. If he succeeds DC 10, he adds half his level to damage rolls with unarmed strikes. If he succeeds DC 25, he adds three-fourths his level to damage rolls with unarmed strikes, and increases his threat range with unarmed strikes by one. If he succeeds DC 40, he adds his level to damage rolls with unarmed strikes, increases his threat range with unarmed strikes by two, and increases his critical multiplier for unarmed strikes by one. If he succeeds DC 55, he adds his level x 1 and 1/4 to damage rolls with unarmed strikes, increases his threat range with unarmed strikes by three, and increases his critical multiplier for unarmed strikes by two (etcetera, etcetera). Bonus damage gained from technique checks is not multiplied on a critical hit. Creatures with no discernable anatomy only take half the bonus damage from technique. In any case, if he succeeds DC 10, he only applies half his strength modifier to his damage rolls. Also, if he has one hand free and succeeds DC 15 on this check he adds half his level to his AC as a dodge bonus. If he succeeds DC 30, he adds 3/4 his level his AC, and when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the Bando Warrior, he has a 20 % chance to negate the extra damage (this does not stack with the fortification ability of some magic armor and shields). If he succeeds DC 45, he adds his level to AC, and his critical hit and sneak attack negation increases to 40 % (etcetera, etcetera). In addition, if the Bando Warrior succeeds DC 30, he gains use of another special ability. If he is melee attacked by an opponent and the Bando Warrior successfully evades the attack (his AC was greater than his opponent's attack roll), he may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent. This ability may only be used once in a round. If the Bando Warrior succeeds DC 40, he may use this twice in that round. If he succeeds DC 50, he may use this three times in that round (etc., etc.). Only one attack of opportunity may be made for each attack, and he must make his attack of opportunity with an unarmed strike. The attacks of opportunity are made immediately after his opponent’s attack. Note: unless the Bando Warrior has the Combat Reflexes feat, he may only make 1 attack of opportunity in a round. Note: on this check, a roll of 1 is treated as a 1 (not automatic miss or –10) and a 20 is treated as a 20 (not automatic hit or 30). Technique Checks (1d20 + Bando level + Int) Check Result Bonus Damage Unarmed Critical (Base 20/ x2) Bonus AC Crit Negation Chance Counter Attacks 1-9 - - - - - 10-14 1/2 Bando Level - - - - 15-19 1/2 Bando Level - 1/2 Level - - 20-24 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 1/2 Level - - 25-29 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 1/2 Level - - 30-39 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 3/4 Level 20% 1 40-44 Full Bando Level 18-20/ x3 3/4 Level 20% 2 45-49 Full Bando Level 18-20/ x3 Full Level 40% 2 50-54 Full Bando Level 18-20/ x3 Full Level 40% 3 55+ 1.25 Bando Level 17-20/ x4 Full Level 40% 3 Combat Reflexes: At second level, the Bando Warrior receives Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, regardless of whether or not he has the perquisites. Roll With It: The Bando Warrior's specialized training in evasion and movement enables him to roll with an opponent's attack, thus reducing some of the damage he would normally sustain in combat. These defenses range from subtle body shifts and angular alignments to breakfalls and escaping rolls. As a result of such movements, the Bando Warrior may choose to make a Reflex saving throw to reduce some of the damage incurred in battle (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability). He may only use this in a round where he uses the full-defense action. Each interval of 5 above a base DC of 10 allows the character to reduce one additional point of damage. Thus, a DC of 15 reduces one point, a DC of 20 reduces two points, a DC of 25 reduces three points, and so on. However, each flowing defense attempt (whether successful or not) is regarded as an attack of opportunity and counts against the character's allowed attacks of opportunity for that round. This means that a Bando Warrior can normally make only one flowing defense attempt in a single round (the Combat Reflexes feat, however, can increase this number). If the Bando Warrior can make more than one attack of opportunity in a round, this ability may be used multiple times against a single attack, but the damage reduction does not stack. A Bando Warrior must be aware of the attack and be able to react to it in order to execute a flowing defense- if he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Since a character would not normally be able to make a Reflex save to reduce damage, If the Bando Warrior gains the evasion ability through either multi-classing or items, he does not apply to a flowing defense. In addition, a Bando Warrior cannot use flowing defense while carrying a medium or heavy load. Because of the nature of flowing defense, its effects do not stack with the damage reduction granted by the barbarian and sohei classes. Treat them as separate abilities. Note: This ability is almost directly taken from Heretic888's Shinobi no Mono class. Staff Training: Beginning at third level, the Bando Warrior begins learning to apply his hand techniques to weapons in his hands, specifically the stick. He gains proficiency with the ankus, club, duom, glaive, great-spear, guisarme, gythka, halberd, heavy poleaxe, lajatang, long-spear, naginata, quarterstaff, ranseur, salamander spear, sang kauw, shikome-zue, short-spear, spear, and the trident (also any other staff or pole arm weapons not mentioned, to the DM’s discretion). If these weapons are in his hands, his AC bonus gained from his technique check still applies (even though he does not have one hand free). In addition, with quarterstaff and two other staffs/spears/polearms of his choice, he can choose to apply his dexterity bonus to attack rolls instead of his strength mod, and may use technique checks to increase the damage he deals with them. However, the DC is three points higher. Thus, if Tiluvias, a 7th level Bando Warrior rolled a total of 21 on his technique check, he would add 3/4 his level to damage rolls with unarmed strikes, but only 1/2 his level to damage rolls with the quarterstaff (because the DC for 3/4 would be 23). Quick Defense: Beginning at fourth level, the Bando Warrior may use the All-Out Defense action as a move action instead of a standard action. Thus, a Bando Warrior could use the All-Out Defense action and attack in the same round, but if he chooses to do so, he takes a –4 penalty to his attack roll. Also, the Bando Warrior may still make attacks of opportunity while using the All-Out Defense action. The Bando Warrior may not use this ability more than once per round. Fancy Footwork: at 4th level, a Bando Warrior may take an extra 5-foot step in any round when he doesn’t perform any other movement (except for the previous five-foot step). Like the first, the second five-foot step does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The character can take the extra five-foot step immediately after the first, or wait until the end of his other actions for the round. In all other ways, the rules for taking a 5-foot step apply, as described on page 144 of the player’s handbook. If the Bando Warrior has an armor check penalty, it applies to the number of extra 5 foot steps the Bando Warrior may make in a round. For example, if a 12th level Bando warrior has an armor check penalty of -1, then he may make up to 2 five-foot steps per round (1(normal) + 2(12th level) -1(armor check penalty)). In any case, if the Bando Warrior makes more than one five-foot step in a round, he may not use the full-attack action that round. At 12th level and every eight levels thereafter, the Bando Warrior may make an additional five-foot step. Karmic Sunder: Even when foes do manage to hit Bando Warriors, few will ever want to do so again. At seventh level, a Bando Warrior gains the Karmic Strike feat. However, unless he gains this feat from another source, he may only make sunder attempts with the Karmic Strike feat, and may only use this ability in a round when the Bando Warrior uses the All-Out Defense action. Unlike a normal sunder attempt, even if the Bando Warrior does not have the Improved Sunder feat, he does not provoke an attack of opportunity with sunder attempts (if the Bando Warrior uses a sunder as an attack action, it still provokes an attack of opportunity). If the Bando Warrior already has or later gains the karmic strike, this ability simply provides a +4 bonus on sunder attempts made through karmic strike, and the Bando Warrior never provokes an attack of opportunity on a sunder attempt. This bonus does not stack with the bonus gained from the Improved Sunder feat. Extension of the Hand: Beginning at 9th level, the Bando Warrior becomes proficient with all simple weapons and all martial melee weapons. He may also use improvised weapons at a –2 penalty instead of the –4 penalty. He gains the weapon finesse feat, but he may apply his dexterity modifier to his attack rolls instead of his strength modifier with one-handed weapons as well, albeit at a –2 penalty. If any weapon he is proficient with is in his hands, he can still make technique checks to increase his AC (even though he does not have one hand free). He may also wield any weapon he is not proficient with at a –2 penalty instead of the standard –4. In addition, when wielding the kukri or two other weapons of his choice that he is proficient with (which he chooses upon achieving 9th level), he can choose to apply his dexterity bonus to attack rolls instead of his strength mod, and may use technique checks to increase the damage he deals with these weapons. However, the DC is five points higher. Thus, if Tiluvias, a 9th level Bando Warrior rolled a total of 21 on his technique check, he would add 3/4 his level to damage rolls with unarmed strikes, but only 1/2 his level to damage rolls with these weapons (because the DC for 3/4 would be 25). Stone-Faced Warrior: By eleventh level, Bando Warrior’s have learned to never let their emotions show while they are in combat. They gain a +4 bonus on all checks against an attempt to change their personality. These affects may include fear effects, or spells such as charm person. They also gain this bonus on both Composure and Intimidate checks. Conversely, this makes the Bando Warrior harder to read as well. Any sense motive check against a Bando Warrior takes a –4 penalty. In addition, this can unnerve opponents. Any time the Bando Warrior is struck by a critical hit in combat, the Bando Warrior may make a will save (DC= 10 + damage dealt). If he succeeds, he may attempt to demoralize the opponent that struck him as a free action. See page 76 of the Player’s Handbook for rules on demoralizing opponents. Weapon Training: At 13th level and every four levels thereafter, the Bando Warrior selects one weapon that he is proficient with. He now may use dexterity mod instead of his strength mod on attack rolls with that weapon, and may make technique checks to increase his damage with that weapon. However, for the weapon he chooses at 13th level, the DC is 7 points higher to increase the damage. For the weapon he chooses at 17th level, the DC is 9 points higher (etc, etc,). Staff Mastery: By 13th level, the Bando Warrior has mastered stick fighting. He gains the benefits of the Spinning Halberd feat, though it applies to all weapons listed in the Minor Extension of the Hand ability except for reach and double weapons. If the Bando Warrior already has the Spinning Halberd feat, it is superceded by this ability. Combination Strike: At fourteenth level, whenever the Bando Warrior attacks with an unarmed strike as a standard action, he may choose to take a –5 penalty to his regular attack roll in order to gain a second unarmed strike. This extra attack is made at his normal base attack bonus, with a +2 bonus. If it hits, it deals maximum damage. If the Bando Warrior misses with his first attack, he does not gain the extra attack. If the Bando Warrior does hit with his first attack, he deals half damage with his first unarmed strike anyway. Choosing to use this ability must be made before the attack roll is made. Combo Finisher: If the Bando Warrior uses the full-attack action and hits a single opponent with all four of his regular attacks gained through BAB, he may make an extra attack against that opponent at his highest attack bonus that deals double damage (the bonus to damage from technique is doubled as well). The Bando Warrior’s attacks gained through BAB must all be made with the same weapon for the Bando Warrior to use this ability. Combination Master: By 19th level, the Bando Warrior is a master of the one-two punch. He may now use the Combination Strike ability while using the full-attack action, and he may choose to apply it to any of his attacks. Code of Conduct: Bando Warriors are expected to (though not forced to) follow the orders of any other character with more levels of Bando Warrior than them, and show respect and strict discipline while training. They must also never use any of their offensive abilities unless they must; such as when the life or personal honor of the Bando Warrior or his loved ones are in danger, or when their country is threatened by or at war with a foreign power. Bando Warriors must also not share teachings, principles, or methods of Bando to those outside of Bando (or inside of Bando to lower ranking students) without the permission of an instructor. They are expected to resolve conflicts diplomatically if at all possible, and show respect towards others. They must also never use Bando for commercial purposes; thus they are forbidden from using the Perform (weapon drill) skill to gain money, nor can a Bando warrior teach or train Bando as a full-time job. Bando Warriors are also forbidden to teach Bando to others unless authorized to or until attaining 10th level. The Bando Uniform: Unlike most other styles of martial arts, students of Bando wear a black uniform. Whenever this uniform is worn, it must be worn properly and kept clean. It must never be dropped or laid on the floor, as it is disrespect for one’s self and disrespect for the whole of martial arts, and is an honor to wear. Uniforms must not be worn in public, unless for an authorized demonstration or tournament. Bando Warriors who break this code of conduct may be forced to receive an atonement spell before continuing their advancement as a Bando Warrior, depending on the severity of their actions. Multi-classing note: Monks may freely multi-class with Bando Warriors. Monk-like Abilities: for the purposes of determining requirements for Prestige Classes, the Bando Warrior is treated as having the Flurry of Blows ability. At fifth level, he is treated as also having the still mind class feature as well. In addition, If the Bando Warrior ever multi-classes into a Prestige Class that has the Monk Abilities Class feature, he may choose to instead gain the Bando Warrior Abilities feature. If the Prestige Class increases his unarmed damage and increases his Armor Class as if he were a monk, he may choose to negate this ability and instead treat the Prestige Class levels as Bando Warrior levels for determining technique checks. If the Prestige Class increases his unarmored speed, he may choose to instead add those levels to his Bando Warrior levels for the purposes of determining Fancy Footwork. If the Prestige Class increases his Flurry of Blows ability, the Bando Warrior gains the Flurry of Blows ability and treats the Prestige Class levels as monk levels for determining how many extra attacks can be made and at what penalties must be used. If the Prestige Class grants additional uses of the Stunning Fist feat, the Bando Warrior gains no benefit unless he has taken the stunning fist feat. If the Bando Warrior has the feat, he treats the Prestige Class levels as monk levels for determining how many times he may use it per day. If the Bando Warrior was a multi-class monk he chooses at each level gained of the Prestige Class whether to increase his monk abilities or his Bando Warrior abilities at each level. If anyone has any thoughts whatsoever on flavor issues, balance, or brokenness please comment!
tiluvias99 09-03-04, 03:43 AM	wow, perfectly balanced on the first try :D that's never happened before.
Thorak 09-03-04, 09:29 AM	Normally I rip these variant martial artists apart, because they're just monks with all the reasoning behind the abilities removed, especially the increased unarmed damage. This, however, is refreshingly well-thought-out and balanced. Me likey. Me likey very much. One quibble though, and it's about phrasing more than anything else; Technique: Bando Warriors are taught to rely on speed and technique instead of strength. At the beginning of every combat round, the Bando Warrior makes a special technique check. He rolls a d20 and adds his level and his dexterity or intelligence modifier (whichever is higher). If the Bando Warrior is a multi-class character, he adds half his BAB gained from other classes to this check Note the bolded term. Since you refer later to adding BAB from other classes, and level, I assume you mean class level here, and not character level. So a level 1 BW/10 Wizard isn't getting +11 from level, plus another chunk based on the Wizard BAB. And I would suggest that you change it entirely to make it a bit more 'even', either by changing the multiclass bit to something based on the multiclass levels, or the class level bit to the BW BAB. Just because that keeps everything a little clearer and more concise; the mechanic wouldn't change, just how you're describing it.
tiluvias99 09-03-04, 10:34 AM	Normally I rip these variant martial artists apart, because they're just monks with all the reasoning behind the abilities removed, especially the increased unarmed damage. This, however, is refreshingly well-thought-out and balanced. Me likey. Me likey very much. :D As for technique, changing that right away. I thought that whenever a class or PrC said level it was implied that you use class level, but your right, definitely could be abused as it is. on second thought no it couldn't... because technique's max damage/AC bonus is based on BW level... even with a +40 bonus on technique checks a 1st level BW still only deals +1 damage/+1 AC...I'll change it anyways. As to you normally ripping martial artist classes apart, If anyone has a whole lot a spare time, I would welcome it. I have a feeling that some of the BW's abilities could be abused like hell (perhaps hard blocker or fancy footwork?), and I want to fix that.
Thorak 09-03-04, 11:07 AM	First; I didn't think the Technique bit was potentially broken, just a source of potential confusion. Fancy Footwork seems a bit much, but only because of how many extra steps you eventually get. Every 4 levels turns into 25' of extra, no-AoO-provoking movement. Which seems a bit much. Perhaps every 6 levels instead, maxing out at 3 5' steps? Or perhaps a requirement that, like the Dervish, if they're making the steps within a Full Attack action, they must make at least one 5' step per attack. That at least would prevent the "I 5' step in 25', and then unleash a full attack" which seems a bit silly, especially given the other advantages of 5' steps. For instance, not needing to worry about tumbling past guards to reach the mage behind them. I wouldn't suggest both changes, but either would limit the potential for abuse. Hard blocker also stick out a bit, but only because of the counter-sunder bit. I like the potential to sacrifice your weapons to evade a strike, but it seems too good as written. Perhaps change it so that it can be used to substitute for any successful hit, becoming an auto-hit Sunder instead, and if the enemy misses the attack roll, the block attempt as well is lost. While this will quickly destroy any weak weapons he might have, it's better to lose a tonfa than take the damage in the first place. And it gives him a darn good reason to get some weapons made out of tough material. It's still potentially obscene with an Adamantine weapon, but less so. As it was originally written, take Improved Sunder, get an obscenely high dex and really tough weapons, and Improved Sunder, and you'll mop the floor with almost any opponent, simply because you're unhittable regardless of your AC, and your weapons won't be taking much damage because you keep winning the opposed rolls, because you've got IS and they probably don't. It's too good offensively as written, and IMHO it would be better off purely defensive. Edit: Also, what if they're attacking with natural weapons or unarmed strikes? You can't sunder those. Changing it as I've described avoids that issue, because it removes the counter-sunder option.
tiluvias99 09-03-04, 11:27 AM	thanks again for replying thorak :) the Dervish I don't like, but changing fancy footwork from 4 level to 5-6 level progression certainly sounds reasonable. Which would be better? 5 or 6? if I go for 6, which sounds more reasonable, starting progression at 2nd or 8th? As for hard blocker, changing it to every successful hit I can do. As for natural weapons and unarmed strikes, I assumed there were some rules out there that I just didn't know about (I haven't looked at any of the rules revisions or anything), but I assumed that if you sundered someone's natural weapon or unarmed strike they would just take hp damage, possibly a minus on attack rolls. What are there rules for striking limbs? if there aren't any, there definitely needs to be. I'll change ff to 5 level progression and make hard blocker every successful hit, but I don't know the rules on sundering UA or natural weapons. If anyone does, please post them. And has anyone looked at Combo Finisher? how's the abuse level on that?
Thorak 09-03-04, 12:48 PM	There are no rules for sundering US or natural weapons. It's simply not possible. Though when people ask, I often suggest allowing it, but giving the strike or weapon no hardness and the HP of the creature itself, so there's no difference between it and a regular strike. As for Combo Finisher, I've seen similar types of feats. They don't include double damage, but they often don't have that high a level requirement nor a need for all 4 attacks to hit. So it seems balanced. Especially given the unlikeliness of landing that last attack on an opponent with a good AC.
PurpleFlame 09-03-04, 01:23 PM	This seems real cool... and btw what IS Bando?
tiluvias99 09-03-04, 02:07 PM	This seems real cool... and btw what IS Bando? Glad you asked :D Bando is a martial art system from Burma (now Myanmar). The main focus of Bando is defense and evasion, followed by immediate counter-attack. It goes by the standard belt system, but significantly slower, as advancing a belt normally takes 2-3 years. for weapons, beginners begin training with the long staff, then normally move to the short stick, and once they get to the brown/black belt level they begin training the kukri, sometimes other weapons such as sword as well. Many parts of Bando involve using improvised weapons, using whatever you can find, such as a mop or a broom stick or a briefcase. Bando also revolves around the unneed of strength, as as often more damage can be dealt with proper technique, and using the least amount of energy to get the most results. The advanced styles of Bando often include animal systems, such as boar, cobra, panther, etc., which often emulate the animal. The system itself is much smaller than most of the more public systems like Tae Kwon Do; there are fewer than 1000 people who practice Bando in the U.S., and most schools only consist of 1-5 people. there's a good chance you could get more information about this on the internet, but I'm not really sure of what I'm allowed to say about it. I would suggest googleing Burma and Bando for more info. Always trying to get more students :D There are no rules for sundering US or natural weapons. It's simply not possible. Though when people ask, I often suggest allowing it, but giving the strike or weapon no hardness and the HP of the creature itself, so there's no difference between it and a regular strike. I'm kinda surprised at the lack of rules on "Striking a Limb". how would you house rule if a player said "I attack his leg" or "I attack his arm"?
Thorak 09-03-04, 04:04 PM	I'm kinda surprised at the lack of rules on "Striking a Limb". how would you house rule if a player said "I attack his leg" or "I attack his arm"? No need to houserule. Make an attack roll, deal damage. If you reduce him below 0, you can flavour the death blow however you like. Until you do, he's got just as much ability to say "I nimbly dodge the blow he aims at my leg" as you can say "I attack his leg". Basically because D&D combat is meant to portray fighting, rather than describe it as accurately as possible. And in the current system, true strike combined with any penalties for hitting targets is ridiculously exploitable. -20 to hit to stab him through the eye? Done! And stabbing through the eye's pretty much a death blow. Ergo, when you reduce him to 0 hit points, you can declare the finishing shot is a stab to the eye, but not before unless you're making a coup de grace.
aelryinth 09-03-04, 05:09 PM	I'm always turned off by flavor text that suggests I have the ultimate fighting style. :P First of all, taking an extra 5 feet of move for a 5 foot step is a DC 35 Tumble check ability. Not only are you getting this at level 5, you are allowing the move to be split in two sections...and get more at higher levels! Clearly, this is a no-no. Dex for damage use as a special ability is broken. Your mention of proper technique is BAB...not Dexterity. You covered this more then adequately with Fighter BAB. The level check for dealing damage is just wrong. Sorry. :P This class hits more then a monk...they should be doing LESS damage, not more, in recompense. Especially since fixed damage is multiplied by crits, and so far more powerful then the increased dice of a monk. You note that a Bando warrior can make UA with his hands full, but can't while wielding two weapons. This is a contradiction. If you want to focus on offensive power, the class should suffer on defense. A monk should have a better AC at the same level, since you have the superior BAB, and far better weapon proficencies. The Hard Blocker ability is combat reflexes. If you want to focus on what it is, call it Karmic Strike, because that's what you are making it. The ability to negate armor, and a continual dodge bonus against armor equal to the Armor Check penalty, is just too strong. I'd be trotting your Bando up against my fighter with Improved Armed Strike and see how you like AoO for every unarmed attack you try, IAS or no. This ability completely and utterly devalues armor proficencies. Instead of having a better defense against some idiot attacking me with his open hands, I have less? Dex bonus to damage is, again, not something that should be in the class, being broken on too many levels. Your increased BAB and judicious use of Power Attack take care of all of your explanations and flavor text. I didn't see anything in your text or flavor about Uncanny Dodge, which is a focus on expanded sensory awareness. Reflexes and Agility form a basis for Evasion....Uncanny Dodge is wisdom based, meaning this is a cherry picked skill, a fault of many martial classes. I can see where you want to go with this but...nah, I wouldn't allow this class. ==Aelryinth
tiluvias99 09-03-04, 09:09 PM	First of all, taking an extra 5 feet of move for a 5 foot step is a DC 35 Tumble check ability. Not only are you getting this at level 5, you are allowing the move to be split in two sections...and get more at higher levels! this is taken straight from the elocator PrC, page 143-144 of the expanded psionics handbook. argue balance with that. Dex for damage use as a special ability is broken. Your mention of proper technique is BAB...not Dexterity. You covered this more then adequately with Fighter BAB. ...they don't get dex to damage. they don't even get str. to damage. all they get is their technique bonus. they can choose to apply their dex to attack rolls with UA, but that's just a severly limited weapon finesse. The level check for dealing damage is just wrong. Sorry. This class hits more then a monk...they should be doing LESS damage, not more, in recompense. Especially since fixed damage is multiplied by crits, and so far more powerful then the increased dice of a monk. actually, he hits less than a monk... you underestimate FoB. also, high level monk probably have things like belt of giant strength +6, and other abilities to increase their damage. All the BW gets is 1d3 (for med size) + technique bonus. this is not more powerful, and if it is, not by much. and besides, the monk gains his damage through spiritual training and meditation. the BW gains his through learning the correct way too punch, how much force to use, where to strike, etc. hard work>meditation You note that a Bando warrior can make UA with his hands full, but can't while wielding two weapons. This is a contradiction. he can't make a second chain of off-hand attacks. a character with two arms can make 1 on hand chain and 1 off-hand chain. he could still attack with an UA if he only attacked with one of his two weapons. This is just part of the rules of the game, it applies to any character, monks, fighters, whoever. If you want to focus on offensive power, the class should suffer on defense. A monk should have a better AC at the same level, since you have the superior BAB, and far better weapon proficencies. monks would never use weapons anyways, so it doesn't matter what proficiencies they get. high BAB is equal to med BAB with FoB, if not worse. As for the AC bonus, a martial artist shouldn't need to rely on intuition or magical help to defend himself. It just makes sense that a martial artist (or any other class) learns how to evade or block attacks as he increases in level. BWs just specialize in evading attacks. The Hard Blocker ability is combat reflexes. If you want to focus on what it is, call it Karmic Strike, because that's what you are making it. Karmic Strike is broken and far too abusable. as for the ability, its based on one of our principles: block (noun): something that breaks, smashes, bruises, or destroys your opponent's weapons. block (verb0: to break, smash, bruise, or destroy your opponents weapon. people break arms and legs with blocks. The ability to negate armor, and a continual dodge bonus against armor equal to the Armor Check penalty, is just too strong. I'd be trotting your Bando up against my fighter with Improved Armed Strike and see how you like AoO for every unarmed attack you try, IAS or no. This ability completely and utterly devalues armor proficencies. Instead of having a better defense against some idiot attacking me with his open hands, I have less? continual dodge bonus against armored opponents is a common ability found in many PrCs. they tend to call it "moving the shadow". Also, learning how to out manuever slow or heavy opponents is basic. Dex bonus to damage is, again, not something that should be in the class, being broken on too many levels. Your increased BAB and judicious use of Power Attack take care of all of your explanations and flavor text. like I said earlier, he does not gain dex as a damage bonus. but I do agree, any class that allows that has a strong tendency to be broken. I didn't see anything in your text or flavor about Uncanny Dodge, which is a focus on expanded sensory awareness. Reflexes and Agility form a basis for Evasion....Uncanny Dodge is wisdom based, meaning this is a cherry picked skill, a fault of many martial classes. I actually never thought Uncanny Dodge as wisdom based, I considered it as the character is always ready to dodge an incoming blow, whether hes walking around, working, eating, etc. As for evasion, I considered that to be somewhat magical. If a fireball flew at anybody, they would get burned, I can't see how an area effect such as that can... "miss". If anyone can tell, it is my opinion that monks are not unarmed fighters. to me, they seem like a jumble of quasi-magical abilities with unarmed strike thrown in as an incentive. they get all kinds of immunities, SR, dimension door, supernatural speed, etherealness, wierd instant death move, ki strike... they aren't fighters. I'm trying to create a class that is.
tiluvias99 09-04-04, 11:12 PM	added staff mastery and monk-like abilities. still balanced?
aelryinth 09-05-04, 01:38 AM	DC 20 check at level 20 = auto success = +15 dmg bonus and Improved Crit. DC 30 check at level 20, auto success on a take 10 = +20 dmg bonus and Crit+Keen. DC 40 check at level 20, +25 dmg, + keen, improved crit, superior crit. ALL Fixed dmg applies on crits. Who cares if the base is 1d3? Automatically gets Weapon Finesse/UA. Fighter BAB. AC bonus. Massive AC bonus against anyone who dares to wear armor for protection around him. UD is a sensory skill, not a battle readiness ability...it reflects awareness of surroundings based on paranoia. The Rogue has it, and is NOT a martial class. You cherry-picked the skill. Your view of Monks is very dim. The Monk is a DEVOTED unarmed combatant, who spends his time out of combat engaged in spiritual training as intense as his martial training. The Bando instead learns more weapons and can do anything outside of combat that he pleases. I am not underestimating Flurry. You are underestimating the effect of massive fixed dmg bonuses. Your character benefits from stat bonuses to his technique check to make more dmg...at level 20, he can take 10 on a technique check, and if he has a 30 modified stat, he will always hit it. Then, he can power attack for 5 pts, and every attack is d3+30. There's absolutely no way a monk born can match up to that sheer level of fixed dmg...at the same BAB, no less. You call it Moving the Shadow against Armor. I call my counter move Proficency in Heavy Armor. It isn't a common feature of any published PrC, and the only one I've seen it in is the Daidoji Bodyguard, where it was a broken ability in a broken class. A suit of armor is extremely well-made, balanced, and someone used to wearing it is not at a disadvantage against someone without armor except if the latter is running away. Moving the Shadow is a defensive feat best emulated by something like Dodge, or combat tactics like Defensive Fighting. And on top of this, he can spend a few thousand GP, get a monk belt, d4 dmg, and Wis bonus to AC. You have an obsessive martial artist fighter. Monks are devoted martial artists whose interests also include other things. Your whole explanation of justification falls very flat. As I said at the beginning of my other post, your whole justification of the class is to create a 'better martial artist', which just irks me. The monk is the default and ideal martial artist in the game. Creating a 'superior' version out of your real life experience of a 'superior' martial art system not only spits on the vast martial traditions of China and Japan that the monk represents, but represents an egotistical stance that your view of game mechanics is superior to that of the people who built the monk. So, eh. YOur class not only doesn't impress me, but looks broken at a glance and further analysis. ===Aelryinth
RealMad 09-05-04, 03:19 AM	As I said at the beginning of my other post, your whole justification of the class is to create a 'better martial artist', which just irks me. The monk is the default and ideal martial artist in the game. Creating a 'superior' version out of your real life experience of a 'superior' martial art system not only spits on the vast martial traditions of China and Japan that the monk represents, but represents an egotistical stance that your view of game mechanics is superior to that of the people who built the monk. So, eh. YOur class not only doesn't impress me, but looks broken at a glance and further analysis. ===Aelryinth I do agree with the assessment that "technique" is broken. Anyone who uses the Ray of Frost + Sneak Attack damage combo understands that the actual die used for damage matters very little. What determines how good you are is the amount of damage you do with a hit, outside of the die. This class piles it on heavy and i'm sure it applies to every attack. So no, I won't be allowing a class like this in my campaigns. On that front, I'm with Aelryinth. That said however, I do agree with the assessment that the PH monk is not a finely tuned martial artist. So on that score, I'm with Tiluvias. He's a half and half kung fu specialist monk and meditating mountain hermit. His repeating class ability, Slow fall, is laughable and largely useless unless you have a DM that constantly uses height in his campaigns. SR is nice, of course, but not really in the kung fu fighting theme. This monk may be the default, but he is far from being ideal. He's actually only one prototype of many possible monk flavors. One of my players made the request: Start with a Fighter as your mold, change Fighter armor & weapon proficiency to Monk proficiencies but gain Improved Unarmed Strike. Use the Monk's BAB table. Go down to d8 for HP. Use the monk's unarmed damage die table. Use the Monk's saves table. Use the Fighter's feat progression table. Make available an ability that allows WIS mod to AC that can be taken as a feat after level 5. Be able to use new character's levels for the prereq's of monk feats. Do not be able to use new character's levels for the prereq's of fighter feats. Gain 2+INT mod for skills, but use Monk class skills. No further abilities from monk. So far, that's worked nicely. He's built a pretty nice melee monk with all the feats he's taken. He's not any more effective than the party's fighter and it seems to satisfy his imagination's craving for a kung fu fighter. He's argued that he's basically a Fighter so he should get d10 for HP but I told him that I thought I was generous already, letting him take the monk saves table. He also wants to take Evasion as a feat (which I'm not allowing) but apart from these small requests of his, he's the happiest of my players with his spring attacking, improved tripping, mantis leaping, etc, etc fighter. Sure he has the unarmed damage table but he really doesn't deal any more damage than the fighter, nor does he move faster than 40' (he has that elven regional feat to add 10' to speed). Sure, he doesn't have the flavor of the PH monk but all in all, I thought it was a good compromise to make, especially since he roleplays a kung fu monk prety well.
tiluvias99 09-05-04, 09:32 AM	technique is too powerful. you guys are right. possible ways on how to keep the idea? -change DC increase from 10 to 15, so damage DC would be 10, 25, 40, 55 and AC DC would be 15, 30, 45, 60... -change DC increase from 10 to 20, so damage DC would be 10, 30, 50 and AC DC would be 15, 35, 55... -make technique bonus not multiply on critical hits... your thoughts? As for the monk, I have no disrespect towards it, nor towards its traditions. I just don't think it's meant to be a front-liner, more of a secondary combatant. with the fighter/monk mold, I made one before, you're pretty generous. I would probably get Psi-War feat progression, if at all. It's a good idea, but not what I'm looking for. ...one other thing. you mention the massive AC bonus. which brings up a point. a 20th level fighter will have the same AC as a 1st level fighter if he is denied magic items or armor. does this seem wierd to anyone else? hell, a 1st level commoner can easily hit a 20th level fighter if he doesn't have magic or armor. does anyone else see where I'm going with this?
RealMad 09-05-04, 11:06 AM	technique is too powerful. you guys are right. possible ways on how to keep the idea? -change DC increase from 10 to 15, so damage DC would be 10, 25, 40, 55 and AC DC would be 15, 30, 45, 60... -change DC increase from 10 to 20, so damage DC would be 10, 30, 50 and AC DC would be 15, 35, 55... -make technique bonus not multiply on critical hits... your thoughts? As for the monk, I have no disrespect towards it, nor towards its traditions. I just don't think it's meant to be a front-liner, more of a secondary combatant. with the fighter/monk mold, I made one before, you're pretty generous. I would probably get Psi-War feat progression, if at all. It's a good idea, but not what I'm looking for. ...one other thing. you mention the massive AC bonus. which brings up a point. a 20th level fighter will have the same AC as a 1st level fighter if he is denied magic items or armor. does this seem wierd to anyone else? hell, a 1st level commoner can easily hit a 20th level fighter if he doesn't have magic or armor. does anyone else see where I'm going with this? Well, looking at technique, the big difficulty there is that it produces a way to bypass STR. You could literally dump that attribute and still be as effective, to-hit and damage wise, as the STR based fighters. While I understand that this is the idea, I think game designers are quite right that for balance issues, you cannot allow this too happen. DEX would then be the only attribute necessary for to-hit, damage, and AC. Even if you make people pay feats for this, it's still broken if you ever let that happen. If you want to keep technique, let the attacks get damage mod from STR, but making DC will add portions of DEX mod. You just can't let a DEX-based fighter start dishing out pain like a tank would. The fighter/monk too powerful? Hmmm, maybe my player and I just haven't figured out how to min/max that but he's basically a fighter with better saves and a nice unarmed strike damage die. Actually, I've been thinking of capping the die though...
tiluvias99 09-05-04, 02:30 PM	for not applying str. mod, perhaps I could make it so a bonus gives no bonus but a penalty still gives a minus to damage rolls (like bows)? Also, the thing about technique is that the damage you deal and the AC bonus are governed by your BW level, not your dex. for instance, a 1st level BW with, say, 410 dex (modifier of 200) would recieve something like +7 or 8 damage, and +6 or 7 AC. thus dex is important, but it does not directly tie in with damage. back to the fighter monk thing though, if a fighter could choose to be that, then why wouldn't he? he loses nothing except for a little bit of BAB (which is made up for with FoB), about 1 hit point and some proficiencies. both of those can be made up through multi-classing with 1 fighter level. he gains incredible saves and the ability to deal the most powerful strikes in the game (outside of magic). not exactly balanced.
tiluvias99 09-05-04, 09:43 PM	changed DC increases from 10 to 15 on technique checks, also now extra damage is not multiplied and strength penalties still apply even on a succeeded check. how's it look?
RealMad 09-06-04, 02:33 AM	changed DC increases from 10 to 15 on technique checks, also now extra damage is not multiplied and strength penalties still apply even on a succeeded check. how's it look? Not much better. STR penalty? Even with a class like Bando, it's hard to believe that someone will take STR < 10. Anyway, if the DC is at 15, with decent DEX or INT, a 5th level Bando gets technique applied more than half the time. If you really want to keep the technique feature, I think that an opposed check (factoring in how big you beat the opposing check) is the way to go. It doesn't seem right that it's just as easy for a Bando to apply his techniques on a peasant as a 20th level fighter. Also, the extra 5' step is too big of an advantage. Monks don't gain this and if they don't get it with all their fast movement, Bando shouldn't get it. Actually, you really should test this character out. Take a 5th, 10th and 20th level fighter and match it against the equivalent level Bando. If you get a fair fight, then it's balanced. Personally though, I don't see the fighter winning at any level.
tiluvias99 09-06-04, 05:52 PM	the thing about technique is not that your using them against your opponent, but that your applying techniques to yourself. you would punch a commoner the exact same way that you would punch a 20th level fighter. technique is about making you better. it doesn't matter how skilled your opponent is, you would still try to do the same thing. so opposesd check is out. whether or not you could hit your opponent with your technique is represented by BAB and AC. As for applying it most of the time, that's the point. as you get better, you learn to apply your skills to every punch or every kick, instead of only part of the time. Fancy Footwork... Perhaps every 5 levels is still to much. I'd like to keep the ability, but perhaps moving it to say 4th level, 12th level, and 20th level would be better? I meant to use this as a replacement for fast movement. I did get some dice yesterday, so I'll playtest some fights between BW and fighter. perhaps Barb as well. I'll go with 1st, 5th, 10th, and 20th level. I'll post the results using the current BW.
tiluvias99 09-06-04, 09:42 PM	just finished BW vs. fighter at levels 1,5,10. haven't done 20 yet, probably won't be able to for about 24 hours. the fighter completely slaughtered the BW at levels 1 and 5 (the fighter only lost 1 hp at 1st level, and around 10 at 5th), and at level 10 the BW won but only had 8 hp left. what does this say?
Steelgryphon 09-07-04, 08:56 AM	I dont espicially like this. 1) Why would you play this, No AC bonuses, No extra UA Dice, No Speed enhancements, No Flury of Blows 2) Play a monk, you want weapons waste a feat and 2000g for a ki focus weapon
tiluvias99 09-07-04, 03:22 PM	I dont espicially like this. 1) Why would you play this, No AC bonuses, No extra UA Dice, No Speed enhancements, No Flury of Blows uh... did you even read the class? It gets all of those except for FoB. you skipped over the most important abilities of this class. check out technique... that grants extra damage and AC. and extra AoOs. for speed bonuses... check out fancy footwork. flurry of blows is replaced by higher BAB. It's nice to know that you think it's underpowered, though :D
RealMad 09-07-04, 04:12 PM	just finished BW vs. fighter at levels 1,5,10. haven't done 20 yet, probably won't be able to for about 24 hours. the fighter completely slaughtered the BW at levels 1 and 5 (the fighter only lost 1 hp at 1st level, and around 10 at 5th), and at level 10 the BW won but only had 8 hp left. what does this say? Depends. How did you deck out the fighter and how did you deck out the BW? Losing out at 1 and 5 and drawing (one strike's worth of hp left for winning side is a draw because it is an inconclusive victory) at 10 should be fine. That would be similar to a monk. I'm still surprised though that it came out that way. I would have predicted an outright Bando win at 10.
Steelgryphon 09-07-04, 08:30 PM	:whatsthis Merry f :censored:kin christmas heres the rant ive been working on for the past 45 min If a Bando Warrior chooses to fight unarmed as if fighting with two weapons, the standard penalties apply, but he can make his primary attacks with either hand or foot and make his off-hand attacks with either hand or foot as well (but they are at 1/2 strength to damage). Monks add there str mod on both fists check out technique... that grants extra damage and AC. and extra AoOs A Monk gets more AC perion no check nothing just X+Wis Mod Also, at 6th level a monk can gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat Fancy Footwork +4, and If the Bando Warrior has an armor check penalty, it applies to the number of extra 5 foot steps the Bando Warrior may make in a round. for example, if a 15th level Bando warrior has an armor check penalty of -2, then he may make up to 2 five-foot steps per round (1(normal) + 3(15th level) -2(armor check penalty)). That pales in comparison to a monk, At 20th level a Bando Warrio (with no ACP) can move only 50’ and a monk can move 90’ almost twice and a monk (or a bando warrior) can take the psionic feat Speed of thought to add 10’ to there speed or the Dash feat in CW to add another 5’ to there movement Bando Warrior total speed=65’ (and 20 of that Is in 5’steps signifigantly weaker at times then a base speed of 105’) Monk total Speed=105’ flurry of blows is replaced by higher BAB Ok no no no Full BaB at 20th level 20+str mod/15+str mod/10+str mod/5+str mod Monk FoB (20th level) 15+str mod/15+str mod/15+str mod/10+str mod/5+str mod that’s 5 attacks at a little less then a bandos full attack of 4 attacks Why would you play this, No AC bonuses, No extra UA Dice, No Speed enhancements, No Flury of Blows (that’s me) uh... did you even read the class? It gets all of those except for FoB. you skipped over the most important abilities of this class (that’s him) ok no manufactured weapon is capable of attacking 5(6 times with speed enchanted fists) at 15/15/15/10/5/(15 with speed fists) period but then theres the 2d10 damage at 20th level (15th with monks belt) ok here is the average damage (2x10=20)/2=10 (avg) so that’s (10+str mod)x5(or 6 with speed fists)=50(+str mod x5(or 6)) so lets assume a monk with 26 str (8 mod) (2x10=20)(/2)+8=18 avg dmg 18x5(or 6 speed fists)=90dmg(or 108dmg) in a full FoB hit there fore your points are moot, the class IS underpowered as written, Add in the monks unarmed damage halfed so the progression would go Level Unarmed Dmg 1 1d6 2 1d6 3 1d6 4 1d6 5 1d6 6 1d6 7 1d8 8 1d8 9 1d8 10 1d8 11 1d8 12 1d8 13 1d10 14 1d10 15 1d10 16 1d10 17 1d10 18 1d10 19 2d6 20 2d6 So as ive already stated it is VERY weak, Add some stuff, and maybe if your gonna let them use weapons dont call them unarmed specilists, or if youyr gonna call them unarmed combat specilists do what i do add there unarmed damage dice 1d3 isnt very impressive at 20th level
robitusinz 09-07-04, 09:25 PM	Just wanted to make a small comment in regards to the "Technique" ability. It was a hell of a confusing read. I would not allow this class in a game I run simply because I'd jump out of a window if every round, one of the PCs rolled a die and ended up with some sort of random damage. Personally, I like things simple. Why not a scaling increase to damage? Something that can be written on a sheet and not changed for at least 1 level. That would make my life as a DM much easier when dealing with a Bando Warrior's player. I agree with the poster above me who suggested just giving the BW increased unarmed damage like a Monk. Either that, or swap the monk's AC bonus with a BW damage bonus, so a 20th level BW is adding an extra +5 to his unarmed attacks. Or, perhaps just making it BAB/4. That way, it's multi-class friendly. But, that'd also make it a 1-level-dip class. Hmmmm...maybe just straight BW level/2 could work. You could dip, but won't get any major benefit out of it.
tiluvias99 09-08-04, 03:18 PM	first of all, just finished play testing... BW lost at level 20 vs fighter... as for how I decked them out, I min-maxed the hell out of them, at every level. now for responding :D Monks add there str mod on both fists not on their off-hand attacks. look at some of the FoB and TWF threads for the rules on this. And besides, the BW is not normally applying his Str. mod anyways, he instead applies his full tech bonus to every attack. A Monk gets more AC perion no check nothing just X+Wis Mod Also, at 6th level a monk can gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat at sixth level, the BW probably has a modifier of +9 on his technique check, with 16/17 dex. this means he is always getting +3 bonus damage, and has a 25% chance of getting +4 damage with UA. he also has a 75% chance of getting +3 AC every round. true, its not as high as a monk with high wis, but it gets higher real fast. Bando Warrior total speed=65’ (and 20 of that Is in 5’steps signifigantly weaker at times then a base speed of 105’) Monk total Speed=105’ um, so you know, you can't make 5 ft. steps in a round where you move... but the advantage is that the BW provokes no AoOs whatsoever with his 5 ft steps and can make a full-attack action afterward. ok here is the average damage (2x10=20)/2=10 (avg) so that’s (10+str mod)x5(or 6 with speed fists)=50(+str mod x5(or 6)) so lets assume a monk with 26 str (8 mod) (2x10=20)(/2)+8=18 avg dmg 18x5(or 6 speed fists)=90dmg(or 108dmg) in a full FoB hit heh. you forgot TWF. but, just for grins, at 20th level the BW probably has a mod of +30 to his technique check. this means he always gets +15 damage and +1 threat range with UA, weapons in minorEotH, and weapons in magorEotH, he always gets +15 to AC and DR 1/-, and gets to make an AoO against two of his opponent's attacks. this is assuming a roll of 1. on a roll of 10, he gets +20 damage with UA, increases their threat range by two, and increases their multiplier by one. he also gets a third AoO. on a roll of 15, he gets +20 damage with all weapons, +2 threat range with all weapons, and +1 multiplier with all weapons. and +20 to AC and DR 2/-. plus his three AoOs. so... lets say he hits with all of his normal attacks like in your example...and since were going with averages, lets say the BW rolled a 10. first hit: 1d3 +20. (av. 22) second hit: 1d3 +20 (av 22) third hit: 1d3 +20 (av 22) fourth hit: 1d3 +20 (av 22) fifth hit (via combo finisher): 2d3 +40 (av 44) total... 132 for average. and, if he picks up a monks belt, each of those d3s increase to d8s. I didn't even add in the increased criticals or TWF. and he can also magic his fists to gain speedy fists or whatever to gain a sixth attack as well. technique may be confusing, but once you get, you can understand it easily. It's really surprising how people think its under powered. at the beginning I had some people like it and think it was balanced, then I had people think it was over powered, and now I have people saying its underpowered. If people still think it's underpowered after reading the above, post again... I'll increase the damage die, or give bonus feats or something.
RealMad 09-08-04, 04:52 PM	It doesn't really matter what other people say. In the end, Bando is a homebrew class and that's all there is to it. If it makes your gaming group feel better if its overpowered, then fine. If you have a rule that homebrew should be weaker than core, then that's fine too. Anyway, if the playtesting is done and he comes out doing well enough against a fighter as this is not a finesse/non-combat class, then there's no problem. It's your game, do as you like.
FrogTheMighty 09-08-04, 05:02 PM	First of all, I like that you are trying to make a variant unarmed fighter! Now, second, it still rubs me the wrong way (and your story was a little over the top, gore-wise). I really, really like the Idea of an unarmed warrior with full BAB. I like how the FoB adds extra attacks, but people don't seem to realize just how much more often you hit at a +20 vs. +15. Not sure what advice to give you here, but run with it. The technique thing seems both over complicated, and could be overpowered, especially with things like the feat flying kick. Again, I really don't have a fix for you that fits this flavor, but it definitly needs attention. Personally I'm in the camp that believes that no matter how good you are, if you are in poor shape, you won't hurt anybody. Now, I, being a martial artist myself, understand that there are plenty of martial arts, such as judo, that require very little of the practitioner, as the assailant provides all the energy required to injure themselves. However, trying to introduce this kind of complexity to the DnD combat system, marveled for its simplicity, just seems like a bad idea. Also, many of the posters on this thread seemed to have the preconceived notion that "kung-fu" and meditative, spiritual monk/martial artists are two separate things. That could not be farther from the truth. Chinese Gong-fu (kung-fu is an american term), which I would argue that the monk is based on, was started by the monks and scholars who sought a path to enlightenment. It's combative uses were displayed only in times of great need. Being as it is the oldest martial art (this is the common belief, please don't flame me if you think differently), I'd say the monk's style of unarmed combat is the basis for any others. In that light, I think that if you look a little closer at both classes (BW and Monk) you could really draw out some good ideas, and this class could shine as what it really is: a flavorful monk variant
tiluvias99 09-08-04, 07:25 PM	and could be overpowered, especially with things like the feat flying kick. doesn't flying kick just deal an extra 1d12? I never found the feat to be that important, I would rather spend my feats on other things. But in a flavor sense, flying kick would not fit this class at all. flying kicks could probably do a whole lot of damage, but it seems to me that their pretty easy to evade, and leave you open after the attack. IMO, flying kick should go back to being x2 damage, but provoke an AoO. Personally I'm in the camp that believes that no matter how good you are, if you are in poor shape, you won't hurt anybody. I can see your point, but it seems to me that if your doing martial arts then one would get in shape. martial arts is some of the hardest training one can do out there. Now, I, being a martial artist myself, understand that there are plenty of martial arts, such as judo, that require very little of the practitioner, as the assailant provides all the energy required to injure themselves. However, trying to introduce this kind of complexity to the DnD combat system, marveled for its simplicity, just seems like a bad idea. I agree, but I just had to try :D . BTW, there's a monk PrC out there somewhere on the boards (I can't remember when I read it) that focuses on that. I remember reading it and liking it a lot, but the search function is out :( Also, many of the posters on this thread seemed to have the preconceived notion that "kung-fu" and meditative, spiritual monk/martial artists are two separate things. That could not be farther from the truth. Chinese Gong-fu (kung-fu is an american term), which I would argue that the monk is based on, was started by the monks and scholars who sought a path to enlightenment. It's combative uses were displayed only in times of great need. Being as it is the oldest martial art (this is the common belief, please don't flame me if you think differently), I'd say the monk's style of unarmed combat is the basis for any others. I can definitely see where your coming from, but there were also other forms of martial arts that were constructed solely for the purpose of either defending yourself or battle training for times of war. but yes, I think that all martial arts do have a spiritual part of them, just because of the focus needed for martial arts. the problem with that is that today, while meditation and chi training are a large part of martial arts (including Bando), unfortunatly that part is secondary in most systems, and over-looked. In Bando there are spiritual aspects as well, but those who would focus on that aspect of Bando would (if they were DnD characters) probably more similar to the original monk than this, or be multi-class BW/monks.
tiluvias99 09-10-04, 04:00 PM	so does anyone have any more suggestions, or is this class done? Input would be appreciated.
tiluvias99 09-12-04, 07:51 PM	:confused: hmm, no one seems to be replying... do poeple think it is overpowered? underpowered? balanced? do I need to add something? remove something?
Deladrion Garthin 09-14-04, 12:55 AM	I just read through this. Technique is one massive monster of an ability, heh. Is there any way at all that you could make a table that shows all the benefits a particular result will get you? Heck, I might do it myself if I have some time tomorrow. First of all, I think that this concept would do much better as a PrC than a full 20-level class. My reason being that every core class can be used to represent an unlimited number of role-playing and tactical concepts. There is no single way to play a rogue, or a ranger, or even a barbarian. However, this class pigeon-holes the character into fighting in a very particular way. You could say that the core monk does this, but I think the core monk has more options than the Bando Warrior. A core monk can focus on neutralizing his opponent, he can focus on defense, he can focus on offense, he could focus on grappling, and he might focus on avoiding encounters all together through feat and skill selection. The great thing is that a monk could focus on any of these areas and be successful. I don't really see the Bando Warrior as haveing that kind of versatility. And its that versatility that makes a core class a core class. ((Of course, point out the Samurai or Swashbuckler core classes and this arguement falls flat on its face :rolleyes: )) I could definitely see this being a 15 level PrC. The Void Disciple was like 13, wasn't it? It wouldn't be unprecedented. I appologize :D That's all I have time to say right now. Tomorrow I'll come back and talk about the abilities. I wouldn't give my suggestions/criticisms too much credit, though. I don't have any experience working with core classes, though it technically shouldn't be that different than a PrC I suppose :embarrass Before I go; Technique + Two Weapon Fighting = horrible murdery. Or at least it seems to. Be back to comment later.
Deladrion Garthin 09-15-04, 10:25 PM	Technique Checks (1d20 + Bando level + Dex or Int) Check Result Bonus Damage Unarmed Critical (Base 20/ x2) Bonus AC DR Counter Attacks 1-9 - - - - - 10-14 1/2 Bando Level - - - - 15-19 1/2 Bando Level - 1/2 Level - - 20-24 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 1/2 Level - 1 25-29 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 1/2 Level - 1 30-39 3/4 Bando Level 19-20/ x2 3/4 Level 1/- 2 40-44 Full Bando Level 18-20/ x3 3/4 Level 1/- 3 45-54 Full Bando Level 18-20/ x3 Full Level 2/- 3 55+ 1.25 Bando Level 17-20/ x4 Full Level 2/- 3 Here is a table for Technique. It's a little simplified; it doesn't take into account full defense, or penalties from various things. I hope you find this useful :cool: Just Quote from this post and copy and paste the table, along with the Code tags, if you want to add it.
tiluvias99 09-15-04, 10:26 PM	wow, thanks for doing the table. I'll try to go ahead and put it in. I could definitely see this being a 15 level PrC. The Void Disciple was like 13, wasn't it? It wouldn't be unprecedented. interesting idea, but I think I'd like to stick to core classes. I'm much more familiar with them. Before I go; Technique + Two Weapon Fighting = horrible murdery. I've lost you here. what do you mean? too powerful? On a side note, I was considering giving BWs combat reflexes as a bonus feat at 2nd level, like the monk (but without the option of deflect arrows). seems to me like it would fit, since about a third of technique is AoO based. would the BW stay balanced with this? would it unbalance it? or is it drastically broken as it is, without the feat?
tiluvias99 09-18-04, 08:10 AM	Tiluvias casts "Resurrection" on his post! :angel: still wondering about balance, and combat reflexes as bonus feat. anyone have any thoughts?
Deladrion Garthin 09-18-04, 02:49 PM	Before I go; Technique + Two Weapon Fighting = horrible murdery. I meant that since the technique bonus isn't reduced for off-hand attacks, the downsides of using TWF are minimized by the Techinque ability. at higher levels he'll always be dealing 1d3+~25 damage regardless of whether it was his primary or off-hand attack. 7 attacks with that kind of damage output is terrible. You're welcome for the table... it was a real :censored: trying to get it all to align correctly, but it finally got there. Sorry for the lack of a followup, been super busy. I'm even falling behind on my own projects, heh :rolleyes: Your flavor text is awesome. Anything invovling a person having their lower jaw ripped off by a kick is grotesquely good. :D Looking at a the class as a whole... it seems like it is going to be underpowered for some time early on, almost to the point of being orc fodder. But by mid levels they are holding their own, and they are certainly going to be able to kick some tale toward the end. Unarmed Strie: I'm glad you added all the stuff about TWF with the description :) I'm sure that that is news to many people. Technique: Technique by itself is certainly not overpowered. As a matter of fact, it is decidedly underpowered at low to mid levels. The bonus damage and AC is nice, but all this guy is getting to his AC is dex and maybe some unrestrictive light armor. I personally wouldn't touch this class with a low level character w/o first taking a level or two of Monk for Unarmed Damge bonus and wisdom to AC. Is there any downside to wearing armor other than the armor check penalty? As far as the damage goes, I think strength should still be added to it. In my karate class, my punch (I'm average height and very slim) and the punch of a guy who is 6'4" and weighs 280 lbs might look entirely identical, but I guarentee you he can punch much harder than i can. I've never seen a 'hard' martial art in which size and strength mean absolutely nothing, and I'm inclined to believe that there is no such thing. The increased criticals are insignificant as the ability is written. You don't add strength, and you don't add technique bonus, so all you're multiplying is the creature's base unarmed damage of about 1d3, or it can be weapon damage if he's using one. At higher levels this can include an enhancement bonus. Again, if you add strength to the damage this can be more meaningful. What exactly is the damage reduction representing, out of curiosity? Shrugging off damage, deflecting blows slightly, or perhaps rolling with the blow? (I've had a concept for a fricking long time now of a monk that has DR due to offering no resistance when struck and 'rolling with it'... ::sigh:: been too busy to sit down and write anything up for it though, heh) Last bit. Is technique damage added against opponents with no discernible anatomy? If technique isn't how hard you hit them, but where and how, then that implies some sort of precision attack. If it doesn't stack, it might actually be underpowered at higher levels as well as low levels as its written. Minor Extension of the Hand: I like how they gain proficiencies as they level up, and how they are penalized somewhat when using weapons, but I have a few reservations. I think it's appropriate for them to get some exotic weapons along wtih the simple and martial, but why the Gythka or the Salamander spear?? These are racial weapons that a Bando Warrior is probably never going to have ever seen, especially at this level. Also, I don't really think that the great spear should be on this list... it's too good a weapon to just hand out in a grab-bag of proficiencies. Why would they use a longspear when they can use a greatspear? I think the 1d8 + reach is good enough without giving them a 2d6 reach weapon. Fancy Footwork: This is interesting, but I have a bad feeling about it... I don't know why, but I do. :( Maybe it's just the fact that they can do 25' of free movement and full attack in the same round. I don't know. When they first get it it certainly isn't overwhelming... 10' of free movement at 5th level, no big deal. I guess the ability is fine. Quick Defense: Didn't the All-out/Full defense action used to be a full-round action? Hmmm... I checked the SRD and see its a standard action now. Not sure why they changed it... or perhaps I just never really looked at it? Anyway, I think that if his attacks should suffer a penalty while doing an all-out defense. After all, the defense is all-out, isn't it? There is no reason that he should be able to attack better while doing an all-out defense than if he fights defensively as a standard action. Maybe a penalty to attack equal to half the AC bonus, including bonses from tumble? I also don't like the idea of stacking all-out defenses, but I woulnd't be opposed to it if you add the penalty to attack rolls. That way if he's getting +12 to AC by taking two All-out defenses and having a decent Tumble skill, he's taking a -6 to attack rolls on his AoOs. That's twice as good as Expertise. Hard Blocker: I like the idea. In Shotokan we use our 'blocks' as strikes over half the time, especially in self-defense situations. Several suggestions; clarify what happens when someone is sundering while unarmed, this goes for the attacker and the Bando Warrior. Make this limited by his number of AoO per round instead of just dex. Use the penalty to attack rolls suggestion for all-out defense above. This ability is potentially broken since the bando warrior can render his poor AC meaningless with a good attack bonus on every attack that comes his way (lets face it, his Dex is going to be his highest attribute). You could almost look at this like a constant Karmic Strike w/o the AC penalty, and must use the AoO to make sunder attempts. I'll get back to this later... but for now I have to go.
Deladrion Garthin 09-19-04, 01:22 AM	...aaaaand I'm back after doing some of my own stuff :) Major Extension of the Hand; This could acatually be divided up into several seperate abilities. One would grant quasi-proficiency with improvised and other weapons the BW isn't really proficient with. Another would give finesse with one handed weapons at a -2 penalty. And another would give proficiency with simple and martial weapons. Oh, and the kukri and technique damage bit. Speaking of which, you don't grant them proficiency with the Kukri but allow them to add technique damage to that weapon specifically. You should probably just mention that they gain proficiency with that as well at this point. It certainly isn't wrong to lump these abilities together under one name, I guess it's just a matter of style. I prefer to have each abilty distinctly labled by itself. All in all, none of these features of Major Extension are overpowered, IMO. Uncanny Dodge: Looks good Weapon Training: Looks good. I like that they are constantly adding more weapons to their arsenal. Chink in the Armor: I understand that this has limited uses per day, but what represents using the ability? Does the BW designate an opponent during an encounter and the ability functions against that opponent and he expends one use? Does it function for one round? For one attack roll? For one encounter? How many opponents does this affect per use of the ability? What action is it to activate the abiltiy (I would assume none)? The dodge bonus equal to armor check penalty is understandable, but I agree with those that talked about this earlier. This is already represented by the Armor Proficiency feats, which negate the attack penalty equal to armor check penalty. This amounts to the exact same thing. This ability negates armor proficeincies. The BW's opponents can only hope to have heavily enhanced light or medium armor with no penalties. I don't really think it is fair to other classes simply because it is negating the benefits of a very basic feature of their class. What would you think of a class that gained a +4 dodge bonus against manufactured weapons? That essentially negates everyone's weapon proficiencies and there is nothing they can do about it. Doesn't seem very fair. Staff Mastery; Looks good Combo Finisher; Certainly not overpowered. You should specify that technique is multiplied in this particular instance if that is your intention. Monk Abilities: Looks good, and this is probably the best way to go about using the Bando and Monk interchangably. My only problem is with the Stunning Fist part. I really don't think that going into a monk PrC that allows that to stack should grant him Stunning Fist for free. You should allow those PrC levels to count as Monk levels for determining the #/day, but that is it. and Finally... I think Combat Reflexes would be perfectly fine at 2nd level, especially if Hard Blocker is made to function based on AoOs rather than dex ;)
Deladrion Garthin 09-19-04, 01:49 AM	One more thing and I'll shut up... Looking at Hard Blocker, I noticed something. The more the opponent attacks the BW, the greater the chance that the Bando Warrior will successfully sunder the attacker's weapon(s). What I'm saying that while the attacker and BW's first opposed rolls are at +20 (just an example), the second rolls are at +15 and +20, respectively, and the next is at +10 and +20. And all of that can happen entirely against the attacker's will. What I suggest is that the first time the BW makes use of Hard Blocker each round, he uses his full BAB, he then applies a -5 penalty to the second attempt, -10 to the third, -15 to the fourth and so on and so forth for as many attempts as he has. This way he isn't smashing the everloving crap out of some guy's weapon at a ridiculous rate, and if he's attacked by multiple attackers he'll find it more difficult to smash their weapons effectively, as opposed to being nigh-invulnerable to all but their first attack rolls.
tiluvias99 09-19-04, 02:03 PM	I meant that since the technique bonus isn't reduced for off-hand attacks, the downsides of using TWF are minimized by the Techinque ability. at higher levels he'll always be dealing 1d3+~25 damage regardless of whether it was his primary or off-hand attack. 7 attacks with that kind of damage output is terrible. I see what you mean. That damage is really high. of course, its highly unlikely that he'll hit with all of them, probably only 2-4 attacks, but that's still like 50-100 damage. As far as the damage goes, I think strength should still be added to it. In my karate class, my punch (I'm average height and very slim) and the punch of a guy who is 6'4" and weighs 280 lbs might look entirely identical, but I guarentee you he can punch much harder than i can. I've never seen a 'hard' martial art in which size and strength mean absolutely nothing, and I'm inclined to believe that there is no such thing. that is true. the problem with adding str is that the damage would end up being completely insane, if the BW use magic to boost his str. Maybe he only adds half Str mod? The increased criticals are insignificant as the ability is written. You don't add strength, and you don't add technique bonus, so all you're multiplying is the creature's base unarmed damage of about 1d3, or it can be weapon damage if he's using one. At higher levels this can include an enhancement bonus. Again, if you add strength to the damage this can be more meaningful. I made technique not multiply because I think it would be way too over powered. same deal as str mod. At the higher levels, he'd be dealing like 100 damage or something on a critical hit, even without strength mod, not to mention magic or things like power attack. Should I still allow str mod (or half str mod) or allow technique to multiply? I think it's probably the only thing that keeps the damage of this class in check. What exactly is the damage reduction representing, out of curiosity? Shrugging off damage, deflecting blows slightly, or perhaps rolling with the blow? (I've had a concept for a fricking long time now of a monk that has DR due to offering no resistance when struck and 'rolling with it'... ::sigh:: been too busy to sit down and write anything up for it though, heh) The damage reduction represents rolling with blows. It's really because of the BW's constant motion, and how much harder it is to land a solid blow on a moving target. maybe I should make it so instead he has a chance to negate critical hits? like 10% for every 10 points scored on his technique check? that would work, but it might be over powered. your thoughts? Last bit. Is technique damage added against opponents with no discernible anatomy? If technique isn't how hard you hit them, but where and how, then that implies some sort of precision attack. If it doesn't stack, it might actually be underpowered at higher levels as well as low levels as its written. the damage bonus on technique represents how you strike and how fast you strike. where plays a big part though, maybe make it so creatures without discernable anatomies would only take half the damage rom technique? And yes, it would stack with things like sneak attack. I think it's appropriate for them to get some exotic weapons along wtih the simple and martial, but why the Gythka or the Salamander spear?? These are racial weapons that a Bando Warrior is probably never going to have ever seen, especially at this level. Also, I don't really think that the great spear should be on this list... it's too good a weapon to just hand out in a grab-bag of proficiencies. Why would they use a longspear when they can use a greatspear? I think the 1d8 + reach is good enough without giving them a 2d6 reach weapon. I put in the Gythka because it looks to me that one could use it almost the exact same way as the quarter staff. look at the picture in savage species. looks like a quarterstaff with bladed ends. The salamander spear is pretty much a metal spear, so the only difference is that it is heavier. As for greatspear vs. long spear, I put them both in because while one may be their weapon of choice, if they lose it they can easily just grap a spear from a fallen foot soldier and use it instead. their both virtually the same weapon, just one has a bigger blade. Anyway, I think that if his attacks should suffer a penalty while doing an all-out defense. After all, the defense is all-out, isn't it? There is no reason that he should be able to attack better while doing an all-out defense than if he fights defensively as a standard action. Maybe a penalty to attack equal to half the AC bonus, including bonses from tumble? I also don't like the idea of stacking all-out defenses, but I woulnd't be opposed to it if you add the penalty to attack rolls. That way if he's getting +12 to AC by taking two All-out defenses and having a decent Tumble skill, he's taking a -6 to attack rolls on his AoOs. That's twice as good as Expertise. hmmm... perhaps he wouldn't apply his bonus from technique to damage rolls? or maybe just half? As for stacking, I'm just going to remove allowing it to be used more than once in a round. that will make it much simpler. Several suggestions; clarify what happens when someone is sundering while unarmed, this goes for the attacker and the Bando Warrior. Make this limited by his number of AoO per round instead of just dex. Use the penalty to attack rolls suggestion for all-out defense above. This ability is potentially broken since the bando warrior can render his poor AC meaningless with a good attack bonus on every attack that comes his way (lets face it, his Dex is going to be his highest attribute). You could almost look at this like a constant Karmic Strike w/o the AC penalty, and must use the AoO to make sunder attempts. being sundered while unarmed... I really have no idea how that would work. when I originally made this class, I thought there might be rules on striking limbs that I hadn't found yet, but apparently there isn't :( maybe have it just act like a regular attack that deals half damage? Ideas would be appreciated. And yes, I will make it limited by AoOs instead of dex. Looking at Hard Blocker, I noticed something. The more the opponent attacks the BW, the greater the chance that the Bando Warrior will successfully sunder the attacker's weapon(s). What I'm saying that while the attacker and BW's first opposed rolls are at +20 (just an example), the second rolls are at +15 and +20, respectively, and the next is at +10 and +20. And all of that can happen entirely against the attacker's will. What I suggest is that the first time the BW makes use of Hard Blocker each round, he uses his full BAB, he then applies a -5 penalty to the second attempt, -10 to the third, -15 to the fourth and so on and so forth for as many attempts as he has. This way he isn't smashing the everloving crap out of some guy's weapon at a ridiculous rate, and if he's attacked by multiple attackers he'll find it more difficult to smash their weapons effectively, as opposed to being nigh-invulnerable to all but their first attack rolls. a good point. but If I lower the Atk bonus, he loses the benefit of them as AoOs. I think the best way to do this would be keep the #/round by dex (instead of AoO), but lower the atk bonus with each attack. This could acatually be divided up into several seperate abilities. One would grant quasi-proficiency with improvised and other weapons the BW isn't really proficient with. Another would give finesse with one handed weapons at a -2 penalty. And another would give proficiency with simple and martial weapons. good idea. but unless they were going to be placed at different levels, it's basically just a waste of space on a table. Oh, and the kukri and technique damage bit. Speaking of which, you don't grant them proficiency with the Kukri but allow them to add technique damage to that weapon specifically. You should probably just mention that they gain proficiency with that as well at this point. It certainly isn't wrong to lump these abilities together under one name, I guess it's just a matter of style. I prefer to have each abilty distinctly labled by itself. I thought kukri was a martial weapon :confused: ...atleast in 3.5 it is. I understand that this has limited uses per day, but what represents using the ability? Does the BW designate an opponent during an encounter and the ability functions against that opponent and he expends one use? Does it function for one round? For one attack roll? For one encounter? How many opponents does this affect per use of the ability? What action is it to activate the abiltiy (I would assume none)? yeah, I'll clarify. I'll edit it in, but it's meant to be activated as a free action, it lasts 3+dex mod rounds, and it functions against all opponents. The dodge bonus equal to armor check penalty is understandable, but I agree with those that talked about this earlier. This is already represented by the Armor Proficiency feats, which negate the attack penalty equal to armor check penalty. This amounts to the exact same thing. This ability negates armor proficeincies. The BW's opponents can only hope to have heavily enhanced light or medium armor with no penalties. I don't really think it is fair to other classes simply because it is negating the benefits of a very basic feature of their class. What would you think of a class that gained a +4 dodge bonus against manufactured weapons? That essentially negates everyone's weapon proficiencies and there is nothing they can do about it. Doesn't seem very fair. I see what you mean. maybe they only gain half the dodge bonus? Combo Finisher; Certainly not overpowered. You should specify that technique is multiplied in this particular instance if that is your intention. technique is supposed to be multiplied. I'll edit that. My only problem is with the Stunning Fist part. I really don't think that going into a monk PrC that allows that to stack should grant him Stunning Fist for free. You should allow those PrC levels to count as Monk levels for determining the #/day, but that is it. the PrC levels are treated as monk levels for #/day. should they should still have to spend a feat on stunning fist to benefit? what do you think? I think Combat Reflexes would be perfectly fine at 2nd level, especially if Hard Blocker is made to function based on AoOs rather than dex adding in.
tiluvias99 09-19-04, 02:18 PM	changes made: added combat reflexes quick defense- usable once/round hard blocker- iterative -5 penalty clarified chink in the armor, halved dodge bonus clarified combo finisher
Deladrion Garthin 09-19-04, 04:47 PM	that is true. the problem with adding str is that the damage would end up being completely insane, if the BW use magic to boost his str. Maybe he only adds half Str mod? Half str mod would probably work. That way it probably isn't worth it to the BW to invest resources in his strength score as opposed to dex, so he probably won't ever have an incredibly high str score. At the same time that allows his str to account for something, at least. Especially on critical hits. The damage reduction represents rolling with blows. It's really because of the BW's constant motion, and how much harder it is to land a solid blow on a moving target. maybe I should make it so instead he has a chance to negate critical hits? like 10% for every 10 points scored on his technique check? that would work, but it might be over powered. your thoughts? The critical negation seems like it can represent pretty much the same thing, but I think the DR is fine as it is. I was just curious as to what it was the Bando Warrior was doing to manage it :) the damage bonus on technique represents how you strike and how fast you strike. where plays a big part though, maybe make it so creatures without discernable anatomies would only take half the damage rom technique? And yes, it would stack with things like sneak attack. I think half technique damage to such creatures would be appropriate, without absolutely making the class's core ability useless. I like the quick defense change... but I still think their attacks should suffer somewhat. I don't think halving technique damage would really be representative of what is happening in an all-out defense... I still think the penalty to attack rolls would be the way to go, and it wouldn't be as severe a drawback as halving their damage output. I'd take a -3 to attacks to get a +6 to AC any day of the week. Especially if I were focusing on this guy's AoO and reactive abilities. being sundered while unarmed... I really have no idea how that would work. when I originally made this class, I thought there might be rules on striking limbs that I hadn't found yet, but apparently there isn't maybe have it just act like a regular attack that deals half damage? Ideas would be appreciated. Actually, if the BW fails in his opposed attack roll, he is basically missing their weapon entirely with his attack, isn't he?? That would imply that he gets hit when he fails to smack their weapon away. I think that would simplify this immensely... and dealing half damage to the attack when sundering an unarmed or natural attack would be good. a good point. but If I lower the Atk bonus, he loses the benefit of them as AoOs. I think the best way to do this would be keep the #/round by dex (instead of AoO), but lower the atk bonus with each attack. Fair enough. good idea. but unless they were going to be placed at different levels, it's basically just a waste of space on a table. Agreed. Just a thought. I thought kukri was a martial weapon ...atleast in 3.5 it is. :banghead: It is... I've never had any reason to look up the Kukri, so I've still been in 3.0 world, thinking of it as exotic. Same thing as the all-out defense, hehe. yeah, I'll clarify. I'll edit it in, but it's meant to be activated as a free action, it lasts 3+dex mod rounds, and it functions against all opponents. Sounds good. I see what you mean. maybe they only gain half the dodge bonus? That would be more reasonable. the PrC levels are treated as monk levels for #/day. should they should still have to spend a feat on stunning fist to benefit? what do you think? Absolutley they should have to spend the feat. Not every monk has Stunning Fist, they could have opted for the other feat at that level (Imp. Grapple? Too lazy to look it up...), and there is no reason they'd suddenly aquire it when they go into a class that allows it's class levels to stack with monk for Stunning Fist. But, honestly, such a class shouldn't have a feature like that unless it required Stunning Fist in the first place. :P
tiluvias99 09-20-04, 06:26 AM	don't have much time gotta write fast- putting in half str half/vs. abberation etc. minus to atks for quick d. sundering... I'll get to it later. no changes made yet. stnning fist- any ideas on how to replace it? gotta go
tiluvias99 09-21-04, 06:00 AM	here's an idea- what if the BW got Chink in the Armor increases instead of stunning fist? might that work?
Deladrion Garthin 09-21-04, 10:41 AM	I think that he should simply be able to count those PrC levels as monk levels for determining stunning fists per day should he have or ever get the feat. He shouldn't get the feat for free, and that ability shouldn't progress his usual Bando Abilities. Again, not all monks are going to have Stunning Fist. If you allow those levels to stack with Bando for Chink in Armor on top of everything else he continues to progress in, what reason does he have to not take a prestige class? Weapon training, staff mastery, and improved uncanny dodge. I don't think those three abilities are worth 10 levels when he can get all the abilities of a PrC and still get his other Bando benefits in that time. I think Chink in Armor is necissary as an incentive to stay a core Bando Warrior. I think the problem here is that the Bando revolves around some very basic abilities, gained early on, that just get better and better as he levels up. He doesn't have a bunch of flashy higher level abilities to spice him up the way a monk does, so there really isn't that much incentive to remain a Bando once you qualify for a PrC that allows all your core abilities to continue to progress. Where a monk will miss out on Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Perfect Self, Timeless Body, and other nifty things, the Bando doesn't miss out on that much. That's why I think Chink in Armor should be gained purely through Bando levels and not stack with others.
tiluvias99 09-21-04, 03:13 PM	yeah, I thought about that too. You're right. he still needs an incentive to remain a BW. scratch chink in the armor. What I tried to say about stunning fist in the class description was a BW 10 whatever-PrC 10 would make 15 stunning attacks/day (10 from PrC levels (treated as monk levels), 5 from character level) if he took the stunning fist feat. see what I mean?
Deladrion Garthin 09-21-04, 03:46 PM	What I tried to say about stunning fist in the class description was a BW 10 whatever-PrC 10 would make 15 stunning attacks/day (10 from PrC levels (treated as monk levels), 5 from character level) if he took the stunning fist feat. see what I mean? I understood what you were saying with that and I think that would be fine, but doesn't stunning fist allow 1 use per 4 character levels each day, +1/monk level? Is the 1 use per 2 Bando level progression a feature of Bando Warriors what I missed?
tiluvias99 09-22-04, 06:21 AM	? Is the 1 use per 2 Bando level progression a feature of Bando Warriors what I missed? no, the BW does not normally get stunning fist unless he spends a feat on it. if he takes a PrC that increases stunning fist, he treats the PrC as monk levels. thus, in my previous example, he would get 10 for his PrC (treated as monk) levels, and 5 for character level (+1 at 4, +2 at 8, etc.). he would get none for being a BW. at least this is what I'm trying to say...the class description says "If the Prestige Class grants additional uses of the Stunning Fist feat, the Bando Warrior gains the stunning fist feat and treats the Prestige Class levels as monk levels for determining how many times he may use it per day." I'll change it to: "If the Prestige Class grants additional uses of the Stunning Fist feat, the Bando Warrior gains no benefit unless he has taken the stunning fist feat. If the Bando Warrior has the feat, he treats the Prestige Class levels as monk levels for determining how many times he may use it per day. how's that?
Deladrion Garthin 09-22-04, 09:48 AM	:D Ah, gotcha Just a note though... Stunning Fist in the SRD Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk. The monk levels don't count toward the total character level for the 1/4 character level bit, that would be counting them twice. So a 10 Bando/ 10 Monkey PrC would have 12 Stunning Fists per day.
tiluvias99 09-22-04, 03:14 PM	The monk levels don't count toward the total character level for the 1/4 character level bit oh, my bad. I really haven't looked at the SRD at all, I've just been using the books. thanks for the update. changing now. also added something to Unarmed Strike. check it out, see if it works.
RealMad 09-22-04, 03:49 PM	I'm still convinced this is overpowered. I'm really not understanding how you lost to a Fighter20. If you did the damage as you stated below (22 average/hit) how did you lose? Did you just stand there swinging? What magic items did you give the BW? What feats did each take?
tiluvias99 09-22-04, 04:13 PM	been awhile since I did it, in short: both went for twf. I spent most of the gold on AC boosting items, then weapons. I gave the BW a magic kukri, magic darkwood heavy shield, and magic greaves (shin guards). fighter got 2 magic warmaces + magic armor. I gave them other stuff as well, but those were the main points. I specifically stayed away from all magic items that had a usage/day, like potions. fighter feats were focused on the warmace, twf, power attack, and improved toughness. bw feats were focused on twf. started 30 feet away from each other. the BW hit more often (maybe on an 18-20), but did significantly less damage with each attack. the fighter could only hit the BW on a roll of 20. on that roll however, he dealt huge damage. I forgot to use the massive damage bit though, even though the fighter dealt something like 60+ damage on a hit, and with the BW's fort save, the battle would have ended even faster. the fighter had something like 200 hp at the end of the battle, out of like 350. the fighter outlasted the BW by far. The BW did about 30-40 damage/hit, 45 or so on a crit. the BW only had about 180 hp. The BW ran all over the place, moving with 30 feet/round (from five foot steps) + full attack. both used elite ability score array (15,14,13,12,10,8). I know its just a jumble of info, but I did this weeks ago. Its possible I just rolled better with the fighter, though I doubt it, I used the same dice.
Deladrion Garthin 09-22-04, 05:43 PM	I guess what you added was the bit about 'extensions' of a limb? I really don't think those should be treated as Unarmed Strikes in any way, honestly. They are entirely seperate weapons in the books and I think they should remain as such. It seems like an excuse to give them easy and cheap access to magical unarmed strikes
tiluvias99 09-22-04, 06:05 PM	It seems like an excuse to give them easy and cheap access to magical unarmed strikes 'course they can just get magic gauntlets/greaves. I just think it makes sense that you could still make the same kind of punches with spikes on your knuckles. I mean, why couldn't you?
Deladrion Garthin 09-22-04, 09:48 PM	Bah... I suppose. But I dont' like it. Logically it makes sense, but DnD rules don't always make sense but are in place for the purpose of balance. I think my best argument is that spiked gauntlets are considered light weapons as opposed to unarmed in the weapons table in the book, which implies some degree of encumberance when using them, if only slight. If you punch with even a pound of deadweight attached to your foot or leg you'll find that you can't punch or kick with as much accuracy, speed, or control as you could otherwise.
tiluvias99 09-22-04, 10:12 PM	If you punch with even a pound of deadweight attached to your foot or leg you'll find that you can't punch or kick with as much accuracy, speed, or control as you could otherwise. unless, of course, you train in boxing gloves or the like :D but still, until you get used to them, it does seriously hamper your hands. perhaps make it so he has to be proficient with those weapons? so, unless he multi-classes or spends a valuable feat, he'll have to wait until 9th level. if anything, allowing the BW to use spiked gauntlets would increase his damage by, wow, from 1d3 to 1d4. The only major difference this might make is dealing with opponents that are resistant to certain types of damage. I don't think this is broken, but...
Deladrion Garthin 09-22-04, 11:16 PM	perhaps make it so he has to be proficient with those weapons? so, unless he multi-classes or spends a valuable feat, he'll have to wait until 9th level Requireing them to be proficient would make it fine in my eyes. :D I don't have a problem with the fact that it increases the damage by one die, I just think that it makes it much easier and cheaper to enhance and enchant unarmed strikes, which otherwise requries quite a bit of expense.
Vintar 09-23-04, 12:22 AM	Only overpowering thing I can see is that the Bando, unlike the monk, doesn't hurt from needing high stats in everything in the same way. A monk needs decent Dex, Str, Con, Wis and Int; bando doesn't need Wis or Str. (maybe I just missed something here)
tiluvias99 09-23-04, 06:01 AM	that is true, The BW only really needs dex and con, maybe a medium int or wis. Strength can be good if you already have it, but it really doesn't help much, since technique cuts the mod in half. Also: added stuff to hard blocker. now if you miss by more than 10, the attempt fails.
tiluvias99 09-23-04, 06:21 PM	Thought I might add a couple new abilities: first: change DR bonus in technique to a chance to negate critical hits/sneak attack damage/etc. (as fortification ability), like 10 or 15% for every 15 points or something. Also considering adding this, probably at around 3rd level: Roll With It: The Bando Warrior's specialized training in evasion and movement enables him to roll with an opponent's attack, thus reducing some of the damage he would normally sustain in combat. These defenses range from subtle body shifts and angular alignments to breakfalls and escaping rolls. As a result of such movements, the Bando Warrior may choose to make a Reflex saving throw to reduce some of the damage incurred in battle (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability). Each interval of 5 above a base DC of 10 allows the character to reduce one additional point of damage. Thus, a DC of 15 reduces one point, a DC of 20 reduces two points, a DC of 25 reduces three points, and so on. However, each flowing defense attempt (whether successful or not) is regarded as an attack of opportunity and counts against the character's allowed attacks of opportunity for that round. This means that a Bando Warrior can normally make only one flowing defense attempt in a single round (the Combat Reflexes feat, however, can increase this number). If the Bando Warrior can make more than one attack of opportunity in a round, this ability may be used multiple times against a single attack, but the damage reduction does not stack. A Bando Warrior must be aware of the attack and be able to react to it in order to execute a flowing defense- if he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Since a character would not normally be able to make a Reflex save to reduce damage, If the Bando Warrior gains the evasion ability through either multi-classing or items, he does not apply to a flowing defense. In addition, a Bando Warrior cannot use flowing defense while carrying a medium or heavy load. Because of the nature of flowing defense, its effects do not stack with the damage reduction granted by the barbarian and sohei classes. Treat them as separate abilities. this is basically from heretic888's Shinobi No Mono, with a few things changed to match the Bando Warrior. If you haven't seen it before, I highly suggest you take a look. I haven't added either of these yet, would it be unbalancing? I think it fits in with the class, but it might be too powerful. your thoughts?
tiluvias99 09-26-04, 01:43 PM	wow, I leave for two days and this gets pushed back to page five. still wonderinging about crit negation and roll with it. Also: considering rules for sundering unarmed strikes same as sunder, except: -deals only half-damage -that half-damage is non-lethal damage -creature must make a fort save (DC= damage roll(not halved)) or take a penalty to attack rolls with limb that made UA (or weapon held in hand that made UA) equal to 1/4 damage roll (creatures immune to non-lethal damage still take this damage). if he fails by more than 10, the penalty is permanent until he recieves the benefits of a heal or regeneration spell. if he fails by more than 15, the limb is removed and the creature takes normal damage instead of non-lethal damage. make sense?
RealMad 09-27-04, 04:02 PM	Okay, now your class is starting to get really complicated. It's starting to really lose sight of the d20 system because of too many details and worse, mechanics that don't really fit the system, play-wise. Crit negation: Why bother creating a new mechanic? Give the BW straight out Fortification if that's what's called for. Personally, I think it's unbalancing. Better to give Uncanny Dodge. Roll With It: This is just Damage Reduction with additional rolling in order to get varying degrees of DR. Also, the idea that the use of Roll With It takes away an AofOpp is just thematically wrong. I think it would make more sense if Roll With It could be performed as a full round action applying to Dex mod number of foes for the round. You certainly don't need another extra roll during your turn. Unarmed Sunder: Absolutely forget about it. Limb removal is a game mechanic like called shots to the head, they're better left out. Also, why bother with sundering weapons then? If you sunder one, an opponent can draw the next backup. With Unarmed Sunder, the arm is useless and can't be used for any weapon. Unbalanced for sure. Also, don't forget that the fact that a BW only needs Dex and Con is a class feature. That in itself should severely limit the number of additional class features that you give the BW. Regardless of the fact that the modifier is halved somewhere, you still only need to depend on those two stats. That means less spreading of attribute points around. That means that you need less variety of stat-boosting items. That is a solid argument to deny the BW a full BAB if you give him all these additional class features. Anyway, you really need to simplify. You're forgetting that many DMs will not want to memorize the BW the way you have. Sliding results based on die rolls are avoided mechanics. Most people don't like checks whose results depend on how much you beat the DC but that mechanic is a staple of the BW as written. I think you'd go far in making this class easier to comprehend and use if you stuck with more of the current mechanics. For example: 1. Make a Technique table whose bonuses (to-hit, damage, maybe AC) increase as levels do. Then just have a Technique check opposed by Sense Motive + BAB. You make the check, you apply the bonuses, you fail, you don't. You'll have to let go of the 1d3 unarmed strike damage idea since you'll want improving unarmed attacks (perhaps with the Shou Disciple scale), but I don't think that's any biggie. In fact, to me it hardly makes sense. At least with the Shou Disc table, you're still hitting quite well with a failed Technique check. 2. Use Roll With It as a full round action with a preset DR and AC bonus according to level. The kicker is that somewhere you give Karmic Strike as a class feat. I think it would be better though for BW to have Lethal Riposte but I think that's reserved for the Blade Bravo. If you don't mind scavenging that feat though, I think it's thematically nice. I think that if you start putting BW abilities within the framework of what most players know, it's easier to assess just how effective and/or playable it is. Also, you make a Bando Warrior much less of a headache for DMs, and players too. PS. TWF is thematically lousy for a BW. Get stuff like Fleet of Foot (? - whatever that feat is that gives you additional movement) or Sidestep.
tiluvias99 09-27-04, 05:52 PM	Okay, now your class is starting to get really complicated. It's starting to really lose sight of the d20 system because of too many details and worse, mechanics that don't really fit the system, play-wise. hm... I guess it's really that I don't think some of the rules of 3 and 3.5 fit, and since about half the time I play as a PC I can't make up house rules to compensate, like how a 20th level fighter and a 1st level fighter have the same AC without magic. I don't really like the magic dependency of DnD, one of the major points of my class is that it has absolutely no magical features, and is meant to work fine in a low or no magic campaign. Roll With It: This is just Damage Reduction with additional rolling in order to get varying degrees of DR. Also, the idea that the use of Roll With It takes away an AofOpp is just thematically wrong. I think it would make more sense if Roll With It could be performed as a full round action applying to Dex mod number of foes for the round. You certainly don't need another extra roll during your turn. that's a good idea. perhaps have it work when the BW uses the full-defense action instead of a full-round action? and yeah, the BW is already making one complicated roll every round. Unarmed Sunder: Absolutely forget about it. Limb removal is a game mechanic like called shots to the head, they're better left out. Also, why bother with sundering weapons then? If you sunder one, an opponent can draw the next backup. With Unarmed Sunder, the arm is useless and can't be used for any weapon. Unbalanced for sure. you bring up a good point. perhaps I should just leave it at that the BW can only use the ability if he is wielding a weapon and the opponent's attack is with a weapon. or perhaps just treat it as a normal attack that deals half-damage or something. what do you think? As for only needing dex and con, I was really trying to stay away from MAD. perhaps make it so technique is based solely on int instead of dex or int? for technique, I can see that for others it would definitely be a headache, but I kinda like the system it uses. I was really going for a thing that hasn't been done before. I happen to like having better results for how much you beat the DC, but I guess others wouldn't. I also like bonuses to damage instead of increased damage dice, it just doesn't make sense to me that without magical help a character could deal more damage than a sword with an unarmed strike. not dealing good damage on a failed tech check makes sense to me, it takes a lot of training to get good technique, and until you get there you're bound to screw up a couple of times. I don't remember ever seeing the Shou Disciple, It sounds familiar but I can't remember where its from, or if I even have it. What book is it in? Karmic Strike I had added for awhile, but I realized it really doesn't fit the class. If anything, one should be able to counter attack better if your NOT hit. Both the Blade Bravo and Lethal Riposte I have never seen, but I think I've heard of them before. I think they were in Rokugen. unfortunately I don't have that book. If its allowed, can you post the ability? Fleet of Foot- Are you thinking of the Dash feat? Sidestep- ones that come to mind are hold the line and side-step charge, which is psionic. are you thinking of those?
RealMad 09-28-04, 02:30 AM	hm... I guess it's really that I don't think some of the rules of 3 and 3.5 fit, and since about half the time I play as a PC I can't make up house rules to compensate, like how a 20th level fighter and a 1st level fighter have the same AC without magic. I don't really like the magic dependency of DnD, one of the major points of my class is that it has absolutely no magical features, and is meant to work fine in a low or no magic campaign. Well, a Fighter20 isn't really the same as a Fighter1. Fighter20 has more HP, higher stats, more feats. But yes, without his gear, a Fighter20 needs to run, which i don't really think is wrong. that's a good idea. perhaps have it work when the BW uses the full-defense action instead of a full-round action? and yeah, the BW is already making one complicated roll every round. Well, the key thing here is that I don't think the BW should be allowed to Roll With It while taking a move action. The idea I get is that he's setting himself up to defend and not moving around. That's why he gets both defensive AC bonus and DR. I think that's well worth giving up a move action. you bring up a good point. perhaps I should just leave it at that the BW can only use the ability if he is wielding a weapon and the opponent's attack is with a weapon. or perhaps just treat it as a normal attack that deals half-damage or something. what do you think? Leave it out. You have a lot of class features already. Sunder is just flavoring and the current Sunder mechanic can work for BW. After all, most people don't like the principle of Sunder in the first place. Making it better is just going to irk more people. As for only needing dex and con, I was really trying to stay away from MAD. perhaps make it so technique is based solely on int instead of dex or int? But that's the thing. Not having MAD is a class feature. It's as much a reason to take a class as any feature it has. There is value to not having MAD. If you don't give BW MAD, you have to nerf other abilities. MAD is not a preference, MAD is a game balance mechanic. for technique, I can see that for others it would definitely be a headache, but I kinda like the system it uses. I was really going for a thing that hasn't been done before. I happen to like having better results for how much you beat the DC, but I guess others wouldn't. I also like bonuses to damage instead of increased damage dice, it just doesn't make sense to me that without magical help a character could deal more damage than a sword with an unarmed strike. not dealing good damage on a failed tech check makes sense to me, it takes a lot of training to get good technique, and until you get there you're bound to screw up a couple of times. I don't remember ever seeing the Shou Disciple, It sounds familiar but I can't remember where its from, or if I even have it. What book is it in? But see, you like it, and BW fans would like it, but not everyone is going to be a BW fan. Be fair to DMs who aren't big fans but are willing to allow a custom class. Don't make BW unreasonably harder to handle than other classes. Shou is in Unapproachable East. It has a nerfed Monk unarmed damage table. With regard to failed tech checks, you forget that even if you fail a tech check, you can still make a to-hit roll. So basically, in order to make a decent hit (with decent damage), a BW needs to pass both tech and to-hit? That's not right. You're making things harder for your class. The way I see it, you make a hit, you should do some decent damage. You shouldn't need to make two rolls for one attack to be effective. Karmic Strike I had added for awhile, but I realized it really doesn't fit the class. If anything, one should be able to counter attack better if your NOT hit. Both the Blade Bravo and Lethal Riposte I have never seen, but I think I've heard of them before. I think they were in Rokugen. unfortunately I don't have that book. If its allowed, can you post the ability? Lethal Riposte gives you an attack of opp if your opponent misses you. This is exactly what you're saying, I believe. You can find the Blade Bravo in Races of Stone. Apart from the lookout I mentioned regarding Lethal Riposte being unique to the Bravo PrC is that you open the door to people having both Riposte AND Karmic Strike. Personally, I don't mind but some DMs think that that's not good. Fleet of Foot- Are you thinking of the Dash feat? Sidestep- ones that come to mind are hold the line and side-step charge Yeah Dash. The one that gives you +5' movement, right?. The Sidestep I'm thinking of is the one from the Miniatures book. You basically get a 5' after you take an AoO, I believe. Sidestep though just might be broken with Karmic Strike and Lethal Riposte.
tiluvias99 09-28-04, 06:57 AM	here's an idea- break technique into seperate abilities. damage bonus I'd like to keep ( or at least give a level-based bonus on damage), but other abilities can be changed. change the AC bonus and DR to roll with it, have it work with a full-defense action, but you take a penalty if you make any movement other than five-foot steps, gained around level 5. change technique AoO into lethal riposte, you're right, this is what I was looking for. gah. I have lost the fight to keep hard blocker. is there anything you can think of that keeps the concept? perhaps (as someone previously suggested) give the BW karmic strike as a bonus feat, but unless he spends a feat on it himself he can only use it for sunder attempts. hmmm... I don't have unaproachable east, min. handbook, OR races of stone. could I find the abilities in the SRD?
RealMad 09-28-04, 11:40 PM	break technique into seperate abilities. damage bonus I'd like to keep ( or at least give a level-based bonus on damage), but other abilities can be changed. change the AC bonus and DR to roll with it, have it work with a full-defense action, but you take a penalty if you make any movement other than five-foot steps, gained around level 5. change technique AoO into lethal riposte, you're right, this is what I was looking for. Okay then, assuming that your DM has no problem taking Lethal Riposte from the Blade Bravo, all you have to do is figure out a chart for the Technique bonuses. I do believe that the BW should gain AC bonuses somehow as a standard class feature. Still though, I think that many of your problems would be solved by making Bando a Prestige class. gah. I have lost the fight to keep hard blocker. is there anything you can think of that keeps the concept? perhaps (as someone previously suggested) give the BW karmic strike as a bonus feat, but unless he spends a feat on it himself he can only use it for sunder attempts. Karmic Strike only for sunder seems fine. See, to me, the mechanic of penalizing someone for hitting you, especially after you've given yourself AC bonuses already, is rather unfair. hmmm... I don't have unaproachable east, min. handbook, OR races of stone. could I find the abilities in the SRD? Nope.
tiluvias99 09-29-04, 03:30 PM	you know, I've been thinking about making the BW into a PrC, like you and Deladrion Garthin have suggested. I'm gonna try that, it seems like it would probably work better. So, say good bye to this thread, for soon it shall reside in the bottomless depths of page 30 and below. Thank you everyone for your insight, especially Deladrion Garthin, RealMad, Aelryinth, and Thorak. Expect to see this again on the PrC boards in about a week.
RealMad 09-29-04, 03:51 PM	you know, I've been thinking about making the BW into a PrC, like you and Deladrion Garthin have suggested. I'm gonna try that, it seems like it would probably work better. So, say good bye to this thread, for soon it shall reside in the bottomless depths of page 30 and below. Thank you everyone for your insight, especially Deladrion Garthin, RealMad, Aelryinth, and Thorak. Expect to see this again on the PrC boards in about a week. Coolness. Good luck to you with that, although I think you'll find the going much easier as a PrC. Just remember, there are certain mechanics in place for game balance. I know everyone likes the idea of a stealthy/quick fighter that can kick butt as hard as the tanks but that just cannot be. It would wreck balance, regardless of the fact that historically martial artists were hard punchers/kickers.
tiluvias99 10-03-04, 07:24 PM	how fickle am I. I've decided to work on this class yet again. Made a whole lot of major changes- And I mean major. Flavor Text- gone. I never really liked it in the first place, And I've replaced it with other flavor stuff that makes a lot more sense changed technique- now only relys on int, not dex or int. class now needs dex, con, and int. changed DR to crit negation. added roll with it. changed progression of fancy footwork drastically changed hard blocker to karmic sunder added stone-faced warrior split combo finisher into 3 diff abilities. added defensive master added Code of Conduct (yay!) and by the way, If you haven't noticed I have also made a PrC of this, found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4532113&posted=1#post4532113) They are not meant to be used in the same campaign obviously. replies needed!
tiluvias99 10-06-04, 05:30 PM	hmm, no replies... c'mon people, I really need feedback about the stuff I just added in/took out/replaced... and by the way, I increased the DC for AoOs by 10... thus 1 AoO is DC 30, 2 is 40, etc. and I need to know what people think of the Code of Conduct...
RealMad 10-06-04, 06:26 PM	how fickle am I. I've decided to work on this class yet again. Lordy, why do I feel like you've just taken two steps backward? Flavor Text- gone. I never really liked it in the first place, And I've replaced it with other flavor stuff that makes a lot more sense It's pretty good. I liked the old one though. changed technique- now only relys on int, not dex or int. class now needs dex, con, and int. changed DR to crit negation. First, Unarmed Strike: Again, DEX to Damage = BROKEN. Let it go man. It's been proven time and again. Don't make me get into a discussion that's only gone one way a hundred times before. added roll with it. Again, same old complaints, which I'll get to at the end. But come on, applying multiple AoO to the same blow? So you can dodge the same punch twice? That's a really cheesy munchkin mechanic. changed progression of fancy footwork drastically Actually, now that I think about it. Fancy Footwork isn't bad, just so long as you add the rule: a 5' step beyond the first prevents the Bando from executing a Full Attack option. Otherwise, you'd be breaking another significant game balance mechanic. changed hard blocker to karmic sunder That's fair. added stone-faced warrior The unnerving mechanic is wrong. People can hit undead (who are far scarier and show less emotion) without being unnerved. Besides, doesn't it seem strange to you that a Fighter who knows that he did only, say 4 damage, on a hit be unnerved that you didn't flinch? If anything, this ability should only kick in if the BW was dealt a critical or at least 20 points of damage. split combo finisher into 3 diff abilities. The 2nd step and 3rd step should be revised. The ability to deal Maximum damage should carry a higher penalty. As it stands, you will be using it fairly frequently and it leads to the 3rd step, another attack at highest BAB. The guy was already dealt max damage and you're getting another double damage hit at high BAB? With the right equipment, you're setting up the BW to deal Massive Damage on a fairly regular basis. added defensive master Total defense without the annoyance of actually having to play defense? Please... broken mechanic. So are all your attempts to slip an attack into a Total Defense action. added Code of Conduct (yay!) Interesting. The way Code of Conduct is written, the Bando cannot join any adventure-seekers or treasure-hunters. That should severely limit the number of adventures the Bando can go on, which leads to the question of, apart from tournaments with other Bandos, how does he get XP? and by the way, If you haven't noticed I have also made a PrC of this, found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4532113&posted=1#post4532113) They are not meant to be used in the same campaign obviously. replies needed! Stick with the PrC. Your yen for dice rolling and creating alternate play structures is coming out again. And what's the deal with half of the character's levels from other classes coming into play? You mean a Wiz18/Bando2 acts like a Bando11 for purposes of Technique? Same as a Fighter18/Bando2? Surely that must strike you as wrong. Still though, my biggest complaint stands: Your idea of a DC check is just plain wrong for the simple reason that it is not an opposed roll. You make no allowances for the skills of other characters and act as if the Bando operates within a vacuum, conveniently ignoring whether he's fighting a 1st level Peasant or a 20th level Fighter for purposes of Technique. As it stands this class is: Strictly Homebrew
tiluvias99 10-06-04, 08:42 PM	I agree on dex to damage = broken. but... I don't have dex to damage... where are you seeing this? if it's there, it's a mistake, and I'll change it. Again, same old complaints, which I'll get to at the end. But come on, applying multiple AoO to the same blow? So you can dodge the same punch twice? That's a really cheesy munchkin mechanic.You're not dodging the same blow. well, with roll with it, the DR doesn't stack with itself. so you can waste extra AoOs by using it more than once for the same attack, but you won't get any extra benefit. And even then, if you're using it more than once, if it increases your DR, your simply dodging more out of the way, not dodging twice. However, if this itself is broken then I will remove it. Actually, now that I think about it. Fancy Footwork isn't bad, just so long as you add the rule: a 5' step beyond the first prevents the Bando from executing a Full Attack option. Otherwise, you'd be breaking another significant game balance mechanic. that's actually a very good idea. If I just disallowed a full attack if they take more than 1 five-foot step, then it would make things work a lot better. Besides, doesn't it seem strange to you that a Fighter who knows that he did only, say 4 damage, on a hit be unnerved that you didn't flinch? If anything, this ability should only kick in if the BW was dealt a critical or at least 20 points of damage. true, true. I'll change it to only criticals. The 2nd step and 3rd step should be revised. The ability to deal Maximum damage should carry a higher penalty. As it stands, you will be using it fairly frequently and it leads to the 3rd step, another attack at highest BAB. The guy was already dealt max damage and you're getting another double damage hit at high BAB? With the right equipment, you're setting up the BW to deal Massive Damage on a fairly regular basis. of course, unless the BW gets extra damage dice from magic or something, the only thing that is changed is that he deals 3 points instead of 1d3, for the max damage thing. and of course, to get that extra double-damage attack, he has to hit with all of his attacks, including the attack made at BAB 5, which is very, very unlikely in campaigns high enough level for the BW to get this ability. Once again, if this is still broken, I shall change it, but to what I don't know. suggestions would be appreciated if changes be needed, or should I just remove it altogether? Total defense without the annoyance of actually having to play defense? Please... broken mechanic. So are all your attempts to slip an attack into a Total Defense action. hmm... you're right. I shall remove defensive master. Interesting. The way Code of Conduct is written, the Bando cannot join any adventure-seekers or treasure-hunters. That should severely limit the number of adventures the Bando can go on, which leads to the question of, apart from tournaments with other Bandos, how does he get XP? unless, of course, the Bando Warrior is treasure hunting for the treasure, not treasure hunting just so he gets to fight some baddies. The Bando Warrior just isn't supposed to use his abilities unless he must to defend himself or loved ones (as in CoC). If a warlord is terrorizing the land, the BW will first probably try to tell him to stop or just leave, but if that fails the BW would not be restricted in any way from going to any means possible to ensure his own survival. And honor is not a part of Bando: originally said by Joe Manly: there are three tyes of fighting: dirty fighting, dirty fighting, and dirty fighting the BW would not be restricted from simply slitting said warlord's throat while he was asleep, as long as he had reasons to do so that fall within his CoC. The BW doesn't fight often, but when he does, he's gonna throw sand in your eyes, stab you in the back, and hit you while you're down. You mean a Wiz18/Bando2 acts like a Bando11 for purposes of Technique? Same as a Fighter18/Bando2? Surely that must strike you as wrong. nope. what I meant was that wiz 18/BW 2 would gain a +6 bonus to tech (9 BAB form wiz, divided by two + 2 from BW), but he would still use his maximums based on BW level. thus, if he rolled a 25 total on tech, he would only get +1 to damage (3/4 of 2 is 1, rounding down). bonus is based on BW level + 1/2 BAB from other classes (+ int of course), but maximums are specifically only derived from BW level. of course, said ftr 18/BW 2 would get +11 (18 from BAB divided by two + 2 from BW). his maximums were the same. I did this to prevent 1-2 level dips. see? Still though, my biggest complaint stands: Your idea of a DC check is just plain wrong for the simple reason that it is not an opposed roll. You make no allowances for the skills of other characters and act as if the Bando operates within a vacuum, conveniently ignoring whether he's fighting a 1st level Peasant or a 20th level Fighter for purposes of Technique. I just don't see why it would matter. damage bonus: he deals the same damage- but fighter probably has DR, a lot higher AC, and a whole lot more HP, making this insignificant. AC bonus? 20th fighter has a significantly higher chance of hitting. All the special attacks the BW has would have a far less likely chance of working. the combination moves wouldn't really work against any character with high AC. A 20th level fighter would make the same attacks and deal the same damage against a 1st level peasant as he would against another 20th level fighter. but the 20th level fighter will hit back, and has a lot higher chance of evading the attack. It's the exact same. It's like requiring the fighter to make an opposed check to see if weapon specialization works, it depends upon the skill of the fighter, not the enemy. As it stands this class is: Strictly Homebrew actually, that's why I first made it. I didn't really expect anyone else to know what Bando is or really understand most of the concepts. I just wanted to see if a reasonable DM would allow me to use this in a campaign, or if not what changes I would have to make to make it acceptable. Sorry if I should have said this earlier. I'm perfectly fine with others using it, however.