Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RunLikeHell 07-03-07, 05:07 PM	Straight up lvl 20 humans no feats. who wins. Shifter. 4 shifter feats(at least) DR feats sure help both. Probably with 4 lvls of warshaper also. Barb would probably take 2 DR feats,Bite attack feat and mabey healing factor from shifter tree. Then PA tree and some rage feats, mabey shock trooper and 4 lvls of warshaper for fast healing. Monk would be DR feats,+4 ac while shifting and mabey second trait feat, Then 2WF tree, Snap kick. 4 warshaper also and whirlwind attack to finish off cobra strike fighting style.
solbergb 07-03-07, 05:51 PM	No feats? How can you talk about level 20 without feats? Ok you list feats, but since I don't know precisely what they do it's hard to say. You also can't really talk about level 20 without equipment either. A commoner in level 20 equipment is quite formidable, if bought correctly. If the monk buys a reach weapon and a potion of enlarge and the barb doesn't, for example, the barb is going to have a rough time of it. My money is on the monk, primarily because he can disengage when he feels like it and the barbarian can't, plus he has a bit of self-healing that is faster than fast-healing. Just provoking the barb to rage and then staying out of reach for "n" rounds takes away one of the barb's bigger advantages plus any rage-related feats he took. The monk shouldn't ever be in a position where the barb can do a shock trooper attack unless they're in a confined area with no obstacles, so those two feats are likely wasted (bull rush/shock trooper) (monk speed is 90 with all the tumble/balance blah blah skills, barb speed is 70 with boots haste and without those skills - he can't force anything but a missile battle with the monk and his feat set isn't likely to do much with that) But it totally depends on attribute, feat, equipment choices and the conditions of the fight. (if the monk has to block a doorway or the orphans die or some such, it's much more of a barbarian-favored fight than both start out in the woods and the one theat comes out with the other's head wins) From the monk feats you seem to be figuring a straight up slugfest (both sides full attacking till one drops). That's usually the barb area of expertise, but hard to say without looking at their relative attack mods, armor class, damage output, hitpoint totals and stun fist DC vs barb fort save.
bloodtalon 07-03-07, 06:31 PM	i say whoever goes first if the barb. goes fierst raging with a killer wepon he should be able to take the monk out or hurt him alot go the other way with the monk with his fists
Naaman 07-03-07, 08:09 PM	The monk may be the most well-rounded class available. But feat selection plays a big part. As do the ability scores of the characters. Did the monk place his highest stat in DEX, or WIS or STR or what? The Barbarian's highest stat should unquestionably be STR, but what's his CON score? This will affect his resistance to the Monk's Stunning fist and quivering palm abilities. Also, what sources are availble for feat/skill selection? Have you heard of the Grappling Block feat in Oriental Adventures? A monk of high-enough level basically auto-qualifies for the feat, and using sais, has a decent chance of disarming the barbarian on the barbarian's OWN turn INSTEAD of taking damage from a SUCCESSFUL attack. Though, off the top of my head, it's hard to decide which character would win in a grapple (the monk has obvious advantages here, but then a 20th level barbarian should have a much higher STR-especially when raging-and has a higher base attack bonus, so the numbers would likely work in favor of the barbarian). If the fight is taking place in an open field, the monk's ability to maneuver pretty much trumps the barbarian, but the barbarian has access to better ranged attacks (such as a mighty composite longbow, which will probably have at least some magical enhancement), even though his feat selection is not geared toward it, his attack bonus will be at least +25 or so with it (+20 for the second shot, since the first one will likely be deflected, unless the monk chose Combat Reflexes at 2nd level rather than Deflect Arrows). If the monk goes too far away, sure, he's not in danger from the barbarian, but then, he's not a threat, either. If I were the monk, I'd Spring-Attack the crap out of the barbarian (if I had those feats), or I'd at least try to do as much as possible to widdle away at his HP before going in for a full attack. I'd exhaust my stunning fists hoping to catch him with at least one... As a barbarian, I'd wait till the monk tries to catch me in melee (or I'd wait till he's in range of a charge) and I'd rage and then grapple him (it would be well worth the AoO). Without taking magical items into consideration, that's a +29 grapple check (assuming STR was 15 at 1st level). The monk on the other hand is looking at a +22 grapple check assuming a STR modifier of +3 and the Improved grapple feat (again, no magic items). Now that I that I think about it, a grappling barbarian would be awesome... Anyway, the way I see it, it really depends on the creativity of the players, the available terrain etc...
Twylyght 07-04-07, 04:45 PM	what type of gear are we talking if any? That could be pretty big too. A monk that satys out of range using a flurry of wounding shuriken for example.....
Aryxbez 07-04-07, 06:27 PM	I am guessing you say no feats due to the fact a monk built for stunning could easily own the barbarian. Of course, the barbarian could just take the pounce variant, and then just full-attack the monk to death. So I guess without feats, the Barbarian. With feats and such, which now you actually have a contest. I would then say the monk just because a stun monk would just stun a barbarian the whole fight and then proceed to beat him to death.
The_Unseen_Illusion 07-04-07, 08:01 PM	If these two characters were built fo rthis oncomming fight, I would think it would be the monk. But the lack of feats make it difficult, as I could see the monk just taking the spring attack tree and Stunning the Barb untill it works, then taking his weapon run for the hills with it. Then rinse and repeat, and if it works again do follow up with a FoB, and I'm assuming the monk has equiptment to max his hurt on his damage
Johnny_Angel 07-04-07, 08:11 PM	I also have to go with the monk. Even if the monk only succesfully stuns the barbarian 1 time, being stunned means that you drop anything you have in your hands (i.e. weapon.) So the monk could then just kick the barbarian's weapon away from him. Another tactic would be for the monk to flurry...stunning fist with the first strike, trip with the second stike; pound upon prone helpless barbarian with the rest. Now, everytime the barbarian has a chance to get up he provokes an AoO; the monk can use a stunning attack as his AoO...barb is stunned again; monk starts his tactic all over again. Barbarian goes first? As the monk, if I survive the first hit (which I assume I would at 20th level,) I would use part of my turn to heal; ready a stunning fist or a trip for when the crazy leaping barbarian comes within range. Barbarian leaps toward me; gets stunned; now he can't attack because he's stunned, or the barbarian gets tripped.
torctheorc 07-04-07, 10:43 PM	A 20th level Monk with Improved Natural Attack, Power Attack, and Improved Sunder could go toe to toe with a 20th level Barbarian, for a time at least. Remember the Monk has an extra attack in a full attack routine (due to greater flurry), alot of options to go with that extra attack(trip, stun, grapple etc.), and presumably a much higher AC. Add in Elusive Target (especially for diverting dodge) and you have just neutered the big ol' scary barbarian that everyone was so afraid of. Don't cut and run. Stand and fight!
Fenris_Lathiin 07-04-07, 11:13 PM	I don't understand the question. Do we allow feats or not? Regardless, I'd give it to the Barbarian almost every time. Stunning Fist has a Fort save, which is the Barb's strongest. Con is always a good stat for a Barb, and it goes up when the Barb activates his rage. That'll certainly help the Barb if the Monk tries to use Stunning Fist. Both characters can probably push their ACs to a comparable level, but the Barb has the advantage of a higher BAB. The Barbarian will almost certainly have a higher natural strength, which will increase during the rage, meaning that the Barb's to-hit will skyrocket. As for overall damage potential, all of those dice that the Monk can throw around look nice, but real damage comes from bonuses from things like Strength (in the Barb's case, increased by Rage), Power Attack, etc. If we allow feats, a Barbarian will get great mileage out of Power Attack, Leap Attack, etc. The Monk could possibly be a grappler, but even with Improved Grapple, the Barb still has the Monk beat. Remember, you add your BAB to grapple checks, and at level 20, the Barb is 5 points above the monk, not to mention that the Barb most likely has a higher strength (remember, a Barb can grapple while raging). Granted, the Monk is probably more likely to have Improved Grapple than the Barbarian is, but the Barb's BAB alone gives him a higher grapple check score than the grappling monk.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 03:00 AM	Barbarian, unless they are fighting in a broken terrain (i.e. the monk can climb on trees, that kind of thing). As long as the barb can charge, the monk is in trouble - their AC isn't that high, often enough, and their speed is not that high to allow them to close in to hit, then escaping on a single move action. 2d10 is, on average, 11; only 4 points more than a greatsword can do - which is easily compensated for by the barbarian's higher strength, two-handed weapon, BAB - and rage. Put in the damage reduction, and a barbarian with a greatsword will do more damage to a monk than vice versa. Don't forget that it is easier to get a magical sword than those amulets of mighty fists, by the way, unless the DM allows a necklace of natural attacks - and even then, it is more expensive. Even with Improved Natural Attacks (unarmed damage 4d8, average 18) a barbarian is very likely to come in first, damage-wise. As for power attack... I'd say a barbarian with a better BAB and a likely two-handed weapon can make much better use of it. Stunning looks nice, but it means both hitting and getting through the fort save. If we presume equal constitution and wisdom, and no equipment, a barbarian saves on 60% of the cases (base fort bonus=12, dc before wisdom bonus = 20), if he is hit, which with a medium BAB is not guaranteed at all. This is without the rage on, with it, it gets to be 80% of the time (although he gets hit slightly more often). This is without equipment - chances are even a barb might want to boost his fort save - or all saves (cloak of resistance, anyone?). And tripping... are we talking a strength contest between a monk and a barbarian? Even that +4 from improved trip might not be enough to cut it. Heavens help you if you are against a tripping barbarian. If we include feats and a barbarian built for such a fight, we must include a char with a high fort save and the likes of karmic strike/shock trooper build. PA with penalty to AC rather than attack and getting an AoO every time when attacked = dead monk. Seriously, guys, even with all their tricks, a monk is going to have a problem against a specialized melee combatant.
TheAnthroDM 07-05-07, 03:15 AM	No feats? The Barbarian wins because his higher BAB and Hit Point ensure that he will deal more damage and can take more. If the Monk has Spring Attack? The barbarian is as dead as a doorknob. Also theirs a slight possibility the monk could win with Quivering Palm.
Nexis 07-05-07, 03:39 AM	This isn’t even a contest, Stunning Fist, as already pointed out, is fortitude save, as is Quivering Palm. The Barbarian not only will make that save almost every time, he'll probably laugh at the mere attempt to target his only good save. (Stunning fist isn’t even necessarily a class feature either; some monks might take improved grapple for their bonus feat) Even with spring attack, all the Barbarian has to do is shoot him/ready to action to kill him when he gets near. I can't really see how the monk can even imagine winning this fight.
BW0222 07-05-07, 04:59 AM	Folks, A correction for Johnny_Angel... Even if the monk only succesfully stuns the barbarian 1 time, being stunned means that you drop anything you have in your hands (i.e. weapon.) It does nothing of the sort. You don't get you can't act, you don't get your dex, and you are -2 to AC. Nothing more. As for the battle itself... while it would be hard to predict a winner at those level due to the massive number of magic items, feat combos, build types, etc. possible, I'm still voting for the monk. My reasoning. First, the monk has adamantine fists and often have improved disarm. At five attacks per round, and only needing one or two hits to take out a typical weapon. The barbarian without a weapon doesn't have much of a chance. Second, monks are often have improved grapple. At five attacks per round, chances are that the barbarian can be forced into a grapple and forced to waste half his attacks just trying to break free. The barbarian might be ok in grappling, but really can't damage the monk. Third, the monk can always choose to run away. She can go ethereal if necessary. Heal, then come back later. Forth, the monk could choose to just not fight in melee. Move back and use ranged weapons. Stay say 100' back and use a sling. If the barbarian takes out a bow, the monk can just charge up and sunder it. Next round tumble (or etheral away) and move back 100'. Just keep moving and firing. It might take a long time to take a barbarian with DR 5/- down with a sling, but it can certainly be done.
Bleyn 07-05-07, 06:53 AM	It does nothing of the sort. You don't get you can't act, you don't get your dex, and you are -2 to AC. Nothing more. from the SRD: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 07:03 AM	Some of these strategies are good, but imo the monk needs a little luck even with them. Why: - Sundering weapons: could be good, but the barbarian could just have an adamantine weapon Given that some pretty nasty things have DR/adamantine, and it overcomes hardness - hence doubles as a door opener, among other things - it is always a good idea. Expensive, perhaps, but we are talking lvl 20s and 3000 gp more on a sword is hardly incredible. And then we have the matter of an AoO (unless you have the power attack and improved sunder feats), and opposed attack roll with penalties (unarmed attack is light, a barbarian weapon is at least 1-handed). While possible, it requires a significant feat investment. Or stunning them first, to be honest. - Grappling: while it is a great weapon to neutralize an opponent with a one-handed or two-handed weapon, it has its quirks. Namely, any melee combatant worth his salt will have a light weapon for exactly such purposes, and possibly armor spikes. Even with the -4 to attack, a raging barbarian is a tough cookie, and a backup weapon for a lvl 20 character can be along the lines of a +3 dagger. Not as fearsome as before, sure, but not exactly puny - especially if the monk gets pinned, which is a significant risk. - running away - a viable option, surely. However, unless the barbarian is out of rage attempts he can also heal - unless you swipe his backpack before you run away. Attrition is going to be your friend there, sure, but tireless rage ameliorates one of the barb's worst problems - being winded after raging. - ranged combat: if the barbarian does take a bow, you do have to get in to hit it. Then it is melee territory again.
Johnny_Angel 07-05-07, 07:10 AM	Folks, A correction for Johnny_Angel... It does nothing of the sort. You don't get you can't act, you don't get your dex, and you are -2 to AC. Nothing more. As for the battle itself... while it would be hard to predict a winner at those level due to the massive number of magic items, feat combos, build types, etc. possible, I'm still voting for the monk. My reasoning. First, the monk has adamantine fists and often have improved disarm. At five attacks per round, and only needing one or two hits to take out a typical weapon. The barbarian without a weapon doesn't have much of a chance. Second, monks are often have improved grapple. At five attacks per round, chances are that the barbarian can be forced into a grapple and forced to waste half his attacks just trying to break free. The barbarian might be ok in grappling, but really can't damage the monk. Third, the monk can always choose to run away. She can go ethereal if necessary. Heal, then come back later. Forth, the monk could choose to just not fight in melee. Move back and use ranged weapons. Stay say 100' back and use a sling. If the barbarian takes out a bow, the monk can just charge up and sunder it. Next round tumble (or etheral away) and move back 100'. Just keep moving and firing. It might take a long time to take a barbarian with DR 5/- down with a sling, but it can certainly be done. What correction? :confused: Well, a lot of people have a good point about the barbarian having a high fort save; however, that still doesn't help against other options such as tripping. Stunning doesn't work? Ready a trip attack; barbarian gets knocked down. I think it would be a very close contest, but I'm still giving the monk the edge.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 07:35 AM	Be careful with tripping. Strength is easily the most important stat to a barbarian, and usually not for a monk. In a strength contest, especially with a raging barbarian (mighty rage bonus = improved trip bonus), you might have a problem. I'd say for lvl 20's the barbarian might have a natural strength modifier much greater than the monk's to begin with. - However, iirc one of the options given by the Elusive Target feat could be invaluable here, as it would allow you a trip without the other guy automatically tripping you back if you fail. Seriously, in a monk vs barbarian fight the elusive target feat is simply mandatory. By the way, would an adamantine armor stack with a barbarian's DR? Both are X/-, so I would think yes. Runlikehell, in the shifter case I would drop the whirlwind attack. You have a high number of attacks as a monk to begin with, and if you want to specialize in harassing powerful single opponents it is unnecessary. It could be great with a spiked chain, sure, but that's another topic. Warshaper... maybe; I need to check it out. However, the barbarian does not need anything more than PA. He could get cleave - or improved sunder, for that matter, but they are not as necessary.
Nexis 07-05-07, 07:47 AM	Well, a lot of people have a good point about the barbarian having a high fort save; however that still doesn't help against other options such as tripping. Stunning doesn't work? Ready a trip attack; barbarian gets knocked down. I think it would be a very close contest, but I'm still giving the Monk the edge. I’m really not sure where you got the idea that the Monk would ever win a trip against a Barbarian. The Barbarian only really needs 2 attributes, CON and STR, while the Monk needs everything but CHA and INT, so it’s illogical to assume that the Monk will have a higher STR score than the Barbarian, who is also raging gaining a +8 to his STR score. Also, in a fight with no feats like the Original Poster suggested, once the Monk fails his trip attempt, he's going to get tripped by the Barbarian right back so it’s an even worse idea. Sundering is also a very poor option, considering you not only provoke an attack of opportunity, but the weapon is probably going to take too long to really damage, with all the enchantments it could have at 20th level. Grappling is a slaughter festival with the Barbarian acting as the Grand Poobah. With the Monks 3/4 BaB and lack of huge STR score like the barbarian, he’s going to just get mauled. Disarm is making opposed attack rolls with a Full raging, Huge STR score, two handed weapon Barbarian versus a MAD, medium BaB, Monk, I think we know where that leads to. The only decent argument I've seen is to run away and try to just use your sling, unfortunately it only has a range of 50 feet, so that means taking penalties if you try to get farther than that, and with 3/4 base attack I know I wouldn’t risk it. Going ethereal doesn’t allow you to do anything but heal for 40 damage once per day. That’s basically nothing a level 20 so I don’t even count that as a tactic. I’m still not understanding why some people seem to favor the Monk, I think the idea of a martial artist is cool and all, I just think the class is horrible, and this is one of the worst situations it can be in.
Johnny_Angel 07-05-07, 08:04 AM	Regardless, I'm still favoring the monk.
Iarmeister 07-05-07, 09:36 AM	I’m still not understanding why some people seem to favor the Monk, I think the idea of a martial artist is cool and all, I just think the class is horrible, and this is one of the worst situations it can be in. The Monk is one of my favorite classes to play, because it represents Core's take on the martial artist we're familiar with from Hong Kong cinema. With the advent of ToB - and specifically, the Swordsage class - the Monk has become, at least imo, a great 2 or 4 level dip before taking levels in a Martial Adept class, where you can learn specific maneuvers that only help out a martial artist-type character mechanically pull off in-combat things that could only be flavor texted (my word for today). ToB plug and Class vs Class comparo aside, the Monk is a challenging character class to play well, because you have to really focus in on only one or two things in which to excel. And, due to what the Monk has to work with mechanics-wise to begin with, being a 'tank/damage dealer' isn't one of them. In a straight up fight, a Barbarian packs more firepower than a monk. Period. Aside from all the aforementioned feat-combos and class abilities, can you say D12 HD?? Monk vs Barbarian? Barbarian in one, maybe two rounds. End of story.
Silverthumb128 07-05-07, 09:47 AM	Straight up lvl 20 humans no feats. who wins. Shifter. 4 shifter feats(at least) DR feats sure help both. Probably with 4 lvls of warshaper also. What's up with that? Are they Humans, or Shifters? And why add in a Prestige Class? As for Barbarian vs Monk, I'm going to say Barbarian. Monks don't generally have very high to-hit bonuses, between flurry and their BAB, so that much evens out with Barbarian's generally moderate AC. However, Barbarian is going to be able to land that many more hits, between full BAB & the Strength increase from Rage. If the Monk is gonna use Stun, who's to say that the Barbarian can't Trip/Knockdown? Or Leap Attack/Shock Trooper? Even when Monk starts hitting with his high damage dice, on average, he's still coming up short to Barbarian. Plus, Barbarian has a lot more HP. The Damage Reduction that Monk gets at 20th level is a little higher, but Barbarian still won't have any issues overcoming that.
solbergb 07-05-07, 02:12 PM	I’m really not sure where you got the idea that the Monk would ever win a trip against a Barbarian. . He gets multiple tries. He only has to stick it once to get a full attack vs the barb stand up/5' step/attack. This makes up for not having as good a modifier. Although likely the modifiers are similar, as the barb str advantage (when not raging) is unlikely to be more than +4 more than a monk built sensibly (ie, with strength as one of the four important attributes) and both by level 20 will have identical +6 str belts and inherent bonuses via books. You really can't count the barb rage for much. The instant the barb rages, the monk disengages, waits for it to wear off, then closes "in same scene" so barb can't rage again. Barb won't be fatigued, but he's not going to get the benefit of his main class ability for more than one round of the fight. Which means the canny barbarian will wait until the monk gives him a full attack opportunity to rage, to make the most of it.
Nexis 07-05-07, 05:24 PM	First of all, the Monk and Barbarian wont have the same STR score, I cant stress enough how the Barbarian only has two real stats he needs to pump, plus his huge bonus from raging, while the Monk needs to put points into a lot of things. Next, let’s disregard specific feats and magic items. Not only because the original poster stated that was the set up, but also because it becomes a "Who is built for the fight more" contest which, ultimately, never gets solved. Even after that, say, by some miracle, the monk does get a trip off. Now the Barbarian is on the floor and the Monk gets a nice +4 to his attacks. Now it’s the barbarians turn, he starts smacking around the Monk while on the floor. He gets a -4 to his attacks, but ultimately doesn’t care because he has full BaB and that huge STR score I keep pointing out. Now the monk has options, he can stand there and get whooped on, or he can get the hell out of there. The Barbarian will still be raging, and if the Monk decides not to engage him by running away, he will shoot him with a composite bow. If the monk tries to fight a ranged contest with his little sling, he’s facing a higher damaging weapon that has over twice the range of his own. You also keep mentioning that he could "outlast" the rage. Assuming the barbarian has a +5 CON, in reality it will be MUCH higher including items, stats, and the bonus CON from raging, the Barbarian is raging for 7 rounds. That’s a very long time to try and play the ranged game and survive. If the Monk decides to disengage from the fight, than... the fight ends! The Barbarian leaves and none of this gets solved :rolleyes:
solbergb 07-05-07, 05:34 PM	if the monk trips the barb (and it doesn't take a divine intervention....if you get 6 attacks, if the monk only has a 25% chance to trip the barb, you have 82% chance that the barb will be on his rear at the end of the flurry) then all the monk has to do is 5' step back at end of flurry and the barb loses his full attack. This works better with quickdraw or combat acrobat or some other means of enforcing a trip without risking countertrip. It is also true that each failed trip attempt means lost damage for the monk. And again...don't expect the barbarian to get benefit of rage. Rage once triggered can be evaded by just running around until it wears off, and a barb can only rage once per combat, no matter how many he has per day. The monk can stay in close contact but out of move+attack or charge range. The person with more mobility gets to dictate the pace of the encounter. You only "win" if the monk runs away and stays away for good. The monk only has to find a little cover and the composite bow threat is gone. Just wait it out, there is no reason not to. It's only about a minute. Even in open terrain, both the barb and the monk probably have sufficient consumable healing resources to undo any miniscule damage the other will inflict using a combat approach (bow vs xbow/javelin/sling) that neither does routinely. By level 20 the MAD doesn't hurt the monk as much. He has the cash for the +6 item and +4 book for all four of his attributes. The barb can't use cash to translate it into a larger bonus. He might have +2-3 more strength to begin with and maybe +5 more if the monk put statbumps somewhere other than into strength, but the net/net is highly unlikely to be more than +8 strength total. Even if the barb somehow gets improved trip too, that feat doesn't help you resist trips.
Nexis 07-05-07, 06:02 PM	Healing Consumables?? Stat boosting items??? Combat acrobat??? Cover??? Your doing exactly what I didn’t want to do, make this a "I have the perfect items/feats and perfect terrain so my class is better" contest. Fine if you want all that stuff that clutters this discussion here... The barbarian has Leap attack, the pounce variant, the PhB II rage variant, boots of speed +70, a cloak of flying (because its cool), and the battle jump feat. Now the fight starts and an artificer comes in and kills them both with 112 Disintegrate. This sort of fight proves absolutely nothing except that we can be very creative and keep a fight going endlessly, and how ultimately pointless a duel between two melee characters is when there’s casters about. I think I’m going to bow out of this discussion. Even after I make my points, a big one being no items or feats and that the monk will start off with a lower STR score and won’t raise it as much in favor of other things, you seem to ignore what I’m saying in favor of making up random situations where the monk somehow survives.
solbergb 07-05-07, 06:37 PM	No, I'm not trying to stack it in favor of the monk, I'm just expanding on my first post. The conditions of the fight matter. The exact feats and equipment matter. Level 20 people have huge, piles of cash and there is no reason why either the monk or the barbarian wouldn't have the normal stuff. There is no such thing as a level 20 character without all the statboost items it is possible to buy that are useful to them. They just don't cost that much compared to his 760000gp. Neither is a stack of potions of cure serious wounds and a haversack to carry them in, which is likely all it takes to heal the 1-2 arrows/javelins that hit vs the AC of either the barb or monk if either attempts a missile duel. Neither is going to operate alone without such equipment. The counter to the "barbarians are stronger they can't be tripped" is "they aren't a lot stronger without rage" and "with tactical feats, the d20 looms larger than the difference if you get lots of attacks". This isn't being argumentative. This is an actual class vs class comparison. The counter to "barbarians can rage and it will last a long time" is "the monk is enough faster than the barbarian that he can stay out of reach till rage wears off" and "rage doesn't matter much in a missile duel" and "neither the monk nor the barb is likely to inflict meaningful damage on the other in an extended missile duel" The reason for the last statement is that they both have equipment, presumably pretty good AC and neither is likely to hit the other when not using their primary attack functions (straight up melee for the barb, melee+tactical class abilities and bonus feats for the monk). This is especially true given that the original poster postulated that they both have fast healing. Fast healing means to kill the monk, you've got to kill it in one round, or get it so close to dead that it can be finished off with your relatively weak missile fire. (it can escape without using any consumable resources just by double moving). Fast healing means to kill the barbarian, you've got to get some kind of advantage on it and slug it out over several rounds (most monks can't possibly get through barb hp/damage reduction in one round, even without rage hitpoints). This means you'll need to stick a stunning fist or two, or win the trip+flurry+step away vs "stand up and single attack" duel. Which isn't by any means certain, but it is a whole lot more likely to work than just standing toe to toe and slugging it out. Neither side has a clear advantage. The barb will win if you just stand there and take it, but has a hard time winning FAST ENOUGH to prevent the monk from disengaging, healing and returning or alternately to prevent the monk from sticking a stun (fairly disasterous as he can now steal the weapon you dropped and eventually run you out of big weapons perhaps) or repeated trip flurries. A monk *might* win a grapple contest but it is a risky strategy, as if the barb breaks free he might get the chance to do that "one round kill" if the monk was dinged up in earlier rounds of the grapple. It is likely easier to hit trip+kick+attempt stun once a round on the barbarian than it is to win sufficient grapple check vs 5 higher BAB and 4 higher strength, even though four of yours are at top BAB and only 2 of the barbarian's attempts are. If the fight is underwater the barb has an advantage (most of the mobility of monk is negated, his unarmed strikes are doing half damage vs piercing weapon the barb might have, barb can't be tripped if both are swimming). The barb also gains an advantage if the fight takes to the air, as both characters are now using identical flying devices with identical mobility. If the fight is in a small room, the barb gets full benefit of his rage because monk can't disengage, and the pressure to kill him all at once is reduced. The barb is at his best if the monk is locked in place by need to defend something/someone, where the disenage option is taken away. The barb is at his worst in broken terrain, especially terrain involving balance checks to move or avoid falling down. Much of that risk though is negated by level 20 equipment. Terrain matters mostly in "can the monk find cover long enough to outwait a rage or to heal". If the answer is yes, the monk has a better than even chance of winning. If the answer is "no, but tripping is possible" then I'd say it is a coin toss, depending on whether the advantage in per-round damage by the trip-stun-flurry combo is sufifcient to outweigh the single hit damage he's taking as the barb stands up and swings for the bleachers vs their hitpoint totals. If the answer is "confined area and barb is immune to trip" then the barb probably wins. (there tends to be a trade-off between stunning fist DC and flurry damage. Stun fist will work sometimes, allowing a monk a whole round without counterattack, but it won't work well enough to work all of the time no matter how high you tweak it, so how much damage you do in the meantime matters. If you combine stun fist with trip though, the tradeoff vanishes - a monk built to have moderate stun fist and trip damage will nearly always, in 6 attempts+stun attempt manage to either trip or stun the barb. The question is how much damage will he do once you subtract out the failed trip attempts and will it be enough relative to your hitpoint total vs the chunk you lose each time the barb stands up. 5' steps after you and swings. The question is also in the round where you failed all the trip attempts and did no damage, just how badly are you hurt by a barb full attack...if the fight goes on long enough you'll get a round like that)
Naaman 07-05-07, 08:07 PM	While luck is a big part of role playing games, I think the spirit of posts like this is to encourage discussion that takes the "randomness" out of the equation and compare straight statistical data to see which is more likely to win (that is, given no feats (which is as much an equalizer as saying that both combatants are equipped optimally for the duel, so that their advantages cancel each other out), you wind up with either a melee slug fest or a ranged combat duel. Fact is, the barbarian has better ranged weapons than a monk does, and he is better at hitting and causing damage than a monk is. Many of the monks key abiities rely on opposed strength checks, which he will most likely lose against a barbarian, and an opposed attack roll is definately in a barbarian's favor. As for the monk taking cover, sure. But then, so could the barbarian. The monk can't hide behind a rock and sling rocks at the barbarian without the barbarian also finding a rock and shooting a mighty composite long bow at the monk. Given the better attack bonus, better range, and superior damage, the barbarian again comes up on top. Grappling is also in the barbarian's favor because in order to cause damage, you first need to win an opposed grapple check which the monk is more likely to lose. What we now have left is a melee battle. The barbarian has better attack bonus, about the same AC and more attack options that are LIKELY to be successful. The chances of the barbarian failing his Fort save are not reliable, so the monk has to just get lucky with a stun (if the stun is a crucial part of his strategy, then he will likely fail to beat the barbarian, but if he just throws it in every round just in case, then he may come up with a decent round of damage and a full attack). If the monk disengages, then he's not really defeating the barbarian. Honestly, if I were the barbarian and the monk tried that hit and run crap with me, I'd ready a grapple or a trip attack for when he moved in for his attack (most likely a grapple, though). Then the monk can't go anywhere, and I can crunch on him for subdual damage all day long (or just take the -4 and deal lethal damage while raging.... but this gives the monk a more even chance to win the egrapple check for that round).
Votan 07-05-07, 08:51 PM	I do think that the hit and run stuff isn't that bad. Solberg is right that equipment and terrain really matter. If the battle is a bare handed monk against a barbarian with an adamantium spiked chain and a ring of Enlarge inside a 40 x 40 arena with no terrain I would expect a complete route. On the other hand, if the Monk can ambush and exchange attacks then the Barbarian is likely to have a bad spell of luck sooner or later.
Naaman 07-05-07, 09:51 PM	Right. Variables play a HUGE part of it. But if variables are added in, then we don't have a discussion. The whole point of the question is to see which class can kill the other faster with either the best possible, or worst possible (doesn't really matter, since they both cancel each other out) set up for BOTH classes. Regardless of the variables, each character is going to try and fight the battle on his terms. If the opponent is faster and more mobile, the slow guy's best friend is the readied action. When variables are thrown in, it becomes a matter of strategy at that point. Both at range and in melee, the barbarian has the advantage. The monk's only 1-up is his speed. He has to find some way to use it to negate the barbarian's advantages. Likewise, the barbarian must find some way to use the monk's own speed against him, or else make the speed not matter (as much). Assuming that each class has only it's class features to work with (and equipment typical to it's archetype and level), an interesting discussion can be had.
Silverthumb128 07-05-07, 11:02 PM	On the other hand, if the Monk can ambush and exchange attacks then the Barbarian is likely to have a bad spell of luck sooner or later. All the Barb has to do during an ambush, though, is hold attacks until the Monk attacks/moves within range.