Barbarian damage reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian damage reduction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Odimax
03-21-06, 05:59 AM I am currently playing a Level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian in a new campaign that has run only two sessions so far.

I've never played a Barbarian before, but I have recently been pouring over the special abilities I will be getting later on in the campaign. I was looking at the damage reduction ability the Barbarian gains at 7th level. Damage reduction 1 seems like it will be nearly useless at that level. Eventually, it goes up to 5, but that is not until 19th level. This seems to be a rather weak class feature to me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I understand the Rage ability is very powerful and very cool, as well as other things, such as increased movement, etc. Also, I like the idea of being able to "shrug off damage" via damage reduction, because it just sounds tough. I'm really enjoying my Barbarian so far, and I really like having survival as a class skill.

Anyway, what I am asking is, to any of you guys/gals playing Barbarians out there, do you find that Damage reduction is useful to the Barbarian?
MasterOfPsychic
03-21-06, 06:37 AM I hope you realize that 5/- applies to every attack? So it protects very well against hordes of ennemies, and monks and archers....

It's not that good, but it surely helps you out A LOT...
Rivelstraz
03-21-06, 06:37 AM Take it as some kind of minor bonus. As you said, the scaling makes it kinda weak. 1 less damage at level 7 is somewhat weak, but -5 at 20 is almost useless.
Silverthumb128
03-21-06, 06:47 AM Coupled with the Barbarian's HD and Con bonus during Rage, Damage Reduction is just one more thing that keeps you on your feet. Barbarians are in no way meant to do much more than take damage and deal it.

Damage Reduction gets fairly weak at higher levels, but its still something worth having. Plus, the only thing that pierces Barbarian's DR is magic, anyhow, so while being a small bonus, its got massve utility.

In my experience with Barbarian(I've actually had the most experience with Barb as opposed to any other class), every one of its abilities will be used, and is very useful indeed.

Why, even the minor damage reduction you gain has use against some of the more powerful character builds. Try sending a Barbarian against a Dervish maximised for # of attacks. They attack a lot, but those attacks aren't going to be very heavy hitting, and you'll be shrugging off 5 damage from each hit. Make that Dervish cringe. ;)
Odimax
03-21-06, 06:48 AM Thanks for the replies. I have another question. I know I won't be worrying about this for quite a while, but do you know if there are any feats out there that can improve damage reduction?

Also, just to get a feel for what people think, I am looking at possibly taking Extra Rage and Extend Rage as feats from Complete Warrior, and I am also looking at the Power Attack tree. I personally feel these are good choices, but I'd like to get some feedback from anyone who cares to answer. We aren't a huge powergaming group, but we generally like to take abilities that will help us out as much as possible without trying to go beyond the spirit of the rules.
Odimax
03-21-06, 06:51 AM Coupled with the Barbarian's HD and Con bonus during Rage, Damage Reduction is just one more thing that keeps you on your feet. Barbarians are in no way meant to do much more than take damage and deal it.

Damage Reduction gets fairly weak at higher levels, but its still something worth having. Plus, the only thing that pierces Barbarian's DR is magic, anyhow, so while being a small bonus, its got massve utility.

In my experience with Barbarian(I've actually had the most experience with Barb as opposed to any other class), every one of its abilities will be used, and is very useful indeed.

Why, even the minor damage reduction you gain has use against some of the more powerful character builds. Try sending a Barbarian against a Dervish maximised for # of attacks. They attack a lot, but those attacks aren't going to be very heavy hitting, and you'll be shrugging off 5 damage from each hit. Make that Dervish cringe. ;)

Yeah, good points. I was already thinking that even one hit point could keep me alive in certain situations.
Radijs
03-21-06, 06:55 AM For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing.
MasterOfPsychic
03-21-06, 06:57 AM There is an epic feat which boosts your DR with 3/-, but I can't seem to remember anything except for that...

I think this would be balanced (eg. not overpowered):

Imune To Pain [General]

Prereq.: Damage Reduction 1/- or better as class abillity.

Benefit: Your Damage Reduction increases by 1.

Special: You can take this feat serveral times, each time it adds 1 more to Damage Reduction.
Che
03-21-06, 06:57 AM For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing.
Yes we are... ;)
Odimax
03-21-06, 07:02 AM For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing.

I think that board might be a little too much for me. I've visited there before and I mostly saw crazy stuff with multiple classes like 1/10/3/8/7.

I think I pretty much just want to stick with a basic barbarian with decent melee combat feats. Since we haven't even been playing 3.5 for a full year yet, I want to see what some of the full progression classes are like before I get too crazy with multiclassing. :cool:
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-21-06, 08:18 AM :plotting: DR 1/- is enough to negate a caltrop wound... I wonder how one might optimize having hundreds of pounds of caltrops. :plotting:
runestar
03-21-06, 09:16 AM The Dr, while seemingly insignificant, will add up over time. ;)

There's a regional feat in PGTF that makes you immune to being fatigued. You might want to do something about those crap will saves of yours too. I think you can take power attack and cleave asap and wield a 2-handed weapon.
phelanarcetus
03-21-06, 10:27 AM The Optimization boards won't give you scary insane stuff if you give them parameters within which to work. "Barbarian, prefer single class but maybe one prestige class, these books available, these stats, this is what I've done so far" will get you something very different than "I want the best Barbarian ever!".

That said, in quick review of the mentioned feats, from my perspective.

Extra Rage is very nice early on, when you have very limited uses of Rage. One use per day, 3-4 encounters... you have to pick and choose when you use it. As you level and get more uses, you reach the point where you don't have to make that decision. Extra Rage essentially lets you avoid that decision a lot earlier, and then later you need to find a use for those added rages (or else the feat feels wasted at higher levels). Very useful at lower levels, utility and value decline as you level. Extend Rage... I don't feel it's particularly useful, as 3 + improved Con should be long enough for an encounter. Power Attack is the feat that you don't want to be without.

Damage Reduction is going to be of little use against opponents who hit hard a few times, and great use against opponents who hit a lot, but not very hard. Archers will cry. Rogues are already crying because they can't sneak attack you. Hordes of weak opponents will cry. Other Barbarians won't even notice.
Nephlite
03-21-06, 10:46 AM I am currently playing a Level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian in a new campaign that has run only two sessions so far.

I've never played a Barbarian before, but I have recently been pouring over the special abilities I will be getting later on in the campaign. I was looking at the damage reduction ability the Barbarian gains at 7th level. Damage reduction 1 seems like it will be nearly useless at that level. Eventually, it goes up to 5, but that is not until 19th level. This seems to be a rather weak class feature to me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I understand the Rage ability is very powerful and very cool, as well as other things, such as increased movement, etc. Also, I like the idea of being able to "shrug off damage" via damage reduction, because it just sounds tough. I'm really enjoying my Barbarian so far, and I really like having survival as a class skill.

Anyway, what I am asking is, to any of you guys/gals playing Barbarians out there, do you find that Damage reduction is useful to the Barbarian?

Don't forget Uncanny Dodge: you can't be sneak attacked by any rogue except when they flank you now. And if they flank you:" you can killt hem with your masive strength.
Technically, they could use Feint useage of bluff, but that limits to one attack on you in melee.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: they can't Flank you for sneak attack unless 4 levels higher.
ogg205
03-21-06, 01:13 PM Well, I think that you are right about the damage reduction- it is useless. Even at epic levels, it doesn't quite compensate the way it should. you'd be better off aquiring higher fast healing then. I generally up the damage reduction by about 2-3 to make it a little more worth having.
Ruhl-Than Sage
03-21-06, 01:29 PM Power Attack and Cleave are a must for heavy damage dealing Two-handed weapon wielders. Whenever you charge you can convert that extra +2 to hit to +4 damage and Weapon Focus will add another +2 damage when converted.

If you've got the Complete Adventurer, I would recommend Leap Attack; it should be easy for you to jump that far by the time you get to level 6 as a Barbarian assuming you buy up your ranks of Jump. Brutal Throw (From the same book) might be worthwhile for you too, depending on how much higher your Strength is then your Dexterity.

The Feat Greater Resiliency can be found in the Complete Warrior and boosts your DR by one each time taken. Personally I love Destructive Rage, you can break just about anything with that feat. It might not give much actual benefit, but it's lots of fun. No need for open locks, just break down the door. Someone ******* you off at the bar, break the table before you kick their Ass. And if you do take Improved Sunder, then well...

Also, Improved Toughness would be a good one to pick up later on. Or, if you are worried about your will saves Iron Will's not a bad idea.
Leach
03-21-06, 01:32 PM The DR isn't much, but it can add up. Just last week my level 16 Barbarian (DR 3/-) went up against a marilith that, thanks to lucky rolls, scored eleven successful attacks. At the end of it, I was left standing with 14 HP. Suffice it to say, that DR saved my life, at least long enough to get smacked with a heal spell.
malignor
03-21-06, 02:47 PM I don't know why people say that DR1/- is useless.
How many hits does it take to drop you? 5? 10?
Well in those 5-10 hits you just got 5-10 HP.

What if I gave you an ability that lets you heal 2d4+3 hitpoints as an uninterruptable free action once per day, out of turn? Would you call that useless? I call it saving your arse.

d12 hit dice is only (on average) 1 hp/HD higher than 1d10, and 2hp/HD higher than 1d8... I think DR 1/- makes the toughness feat look pitiful, and is often as effective as getting your hit die raised to a mythical "d14", or getting a +1 hp/HD.

"useless"... pfeh. If it's useless, remove if from your barbarian character and see how well he fares compared to his clone with the DR.

Barbarian DR kicks.
solbergb
03-21-06, 06:00 PM I also think of the DR as a hitpoint bonus.

If in a normal fight you get hit 5 times (not uncommon for a barbarian) than DR1 is +5 hp, DR5 is +25 hp.

This tends to put it in the same area as a feat like improved toughness, which gives +1 hp/level.

It's a class ability that essentially gives you a feat. It will sometimes be a lot better (low grade continuous damage, or some DM's rule swarms don't really penetrate DR, etc), it will sometimes be not so good (the monster will drop you in two hits, with or without the DR...but again, against such a monster, +20hp at L20 vs +10hp at L20 isn't gonna make any diff either).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Odimax 03-21-06, 05:59 AM	I am currently playing a Level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian in a new campaign that has run only two sessions so far. I've never played a Barbarian before, but I have recently been pouring over the special abilities I will be getting later on in the campaign. I was looking at the damage reduction ability the Barbarian gains at 7th level. Damage reduction 1 seems like it will be nearly useless at that level. Eventually, it goes up to 5, but that is not until 19th level. This seems to be a rather weak class feature to me. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I understand the Rage ability is very powerful and very cool, as well as other things, such as increased movement, etc. Also, I like the idea of being able to "shrug off damage" via damage reduction, because it just sounds tough. I'm really enjoying my Barbarian so far, and I really like having survival as a class skill. Anyway, what I am asking is, to any of you guys/gals playing Barbarians out there, do you find that Damage reduction is useful to the Barbarian?
MasterOfPsychic 03-21-06, 06:37 AM	I hope you realize that 5/- applies to every attack? So it protects very well against hordes of ennemies, and monks and archers.... It's not that good, but it surely helps you out A LOT...
Rivelstraz 03-21-06, 06:37 AM	Take it as some kind of minor bonus. As you said, the scaling makes it kinda weak. 1 less damage at level 7 is somewhat weak, but -5 at 20 is almost useless.
Silverthumb128 03-21-06, 06:47 AM	Coupled with the Barbarian's HD and Con bonus during Rage, Damage Reduction is just one more thing that keeps you on your feet. Barbarians are in no way meant to do much more than take damage and deal it. Damage Reduction gets fairly weak at higher levels, but its still something worth having. Plus, the only thing that pierces Barbarian's DR is magic, anyhow, so while being a small bonus, its got massve utility. In my experience with Barbarian(I've actually had the most experience with Barb as opposed to any other class), every one of its abilities will be used, and is very useful indeed. Why, even the minor damage reduction you gain has use against some of the more powerful character builds. Try sending a Barbarian against a Dervish maximised for # of attacks. They attack a lot, but those attacks aren't going to be very heavy hitting, and you'll be shrugging off 5 damage from each hit. Make that Dervish cringe. ;)
Odimax 03-21-06, 06:48 AM	Thanks for the replies. I have another question. I know I won't be worrying about this for quite a while, but do you know if there are any feats out there that can improve damage reduction? Also, just to get a feel for what people think, I am looking at possibly taking Extra Rage and Extend Rage as feats from Complete Warrior, and I am also looking at the Power Attack tree. I personally feel these are good choices, but I'd like to get some feedback from anyone who cares to answer. We aren't a huge powergaming group, but we generally like to take abilities that will help us out as much as possible without trying to go beyond the spirit of the rules.
Odimax 03-21-06, 06:51 AM	Coupled with the Barbarian's HD and Con bonus during Rage, Damage Reduction is just one more thing that keeps you on your feet. Barbarians are in no way meant to do much more than take damage and deal it. Damage Reduction gets fairly weak at higher levels, but its still something worth having. Plus, the only thing that pierces Barbarian's DR is magic, anyhow, so while being a small bonus, its got massve utility. In my experience with Barbarian(I've actually had the most experience with Barb as opposed to any other class), every one of its abilities will be used, and is very useful indeed. Why, even the minor damage reduction you gain has use against some of the more powerful character builds. Try sending a Barbarian against a Dervish maximised for # of attacks. They attack a lot, but those attacks aren't going to be very heavy hitting, and you'll be shrugging off 5 damage from each hit. Make that Dervish cringe. ;) Yeah, good points. I was already thinking that even one hit point could keep me alive in certain situations.
Radijs 03-21-06, 06:55 AM	For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing.
MasterOfPsychic 03-21-06, 06:57 AM	There is an epic feat which boosts your DR with 3/-, but I can't seem to remember anything except for that... I think this would be balanced (eg. not overpowered): Imune To Pain [General] Prereq.: Damage Reduction 1/- or better as class abillity. Benefit: Your Damage Reduction increases by 1. Special: You can take this feat serveral times, each time it adds 1 more to Damage Reduction.
Che 03-21-06, 06:57 AM	For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing. Yes we are... ;)
Odimax 03-21-06, 07:02 AM	For that I'd refer you to the character optimization forum. There they are all experts on that sort of thing. I think that board might be a little too much for me. I've visited there before and I mostly saw crazy stuff with multiple classes like 1/10/3/8/7. I think I pretty much just want to stick with a basic barbarian with decent melee combat feats. Since we haven't even been playing 3.5 for a full year yet, I want to see what some of the full progression classes are like before I get too crazy with multiclassing. :cool:
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-21-06, 08:18 AM	:plotting: DR 1/- is enough to negate a caltrop wound... I wonder how one might optimize having hundreds of pounds of caltrops. :plotting:
runestar 03-21-06, 09:16 AM	The Dr, while seemingly insignificant, will add up over time. ;) There's a regional feat in PGTF that makes you immune to being fatigued. You might want to do something about those crap will saves of yours too. I think you can take power attack and cleave asap and wield a 2-handed weapon.
phelanarcetus 03-21-06, 10:27 AM	The Optimization boards won't give you scary insane stuff if you give them parameters within which to work. "Barbarian, prefer single class but maybe one prestige class, these books available, these stats, this is what I've done so far" will get you something very different than "I want the best Barbarian ever!". That said, in quick review of the mentioned feats, from my perspective. Extra Rage is very nice early on, when you have very limited uses of Rage. One use per day, 3-4 encounters... you have to pick and choose when you use it. As you level and get more uses, you reach the point where you don't have to make that decision. Extra Rage essentially lets you avoid that decision a lot earlier, and then later you need to find a use for those added rages (or else the feat feels wasted at higher levels). Very useful at lower levels, utility and value decline as you level. Extend Rage... I don't feel it's particularly useful, as 3 + improved Con should be long enough for an encounter. Power Attack is the feat that you don't want to be without. Damage Reduction is going to be of little use against opponents who hit hard a few times, and great use against opponents who hit a lot, but not very hard. Archers will cry. Rogues are already crying because they can't sneak attack you. Hordes of weak opponents will cry. Other Barbarians won't even notice.
Nephlite 03-21-06, 10:46 AM	I am currently playing a Level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian in a new campaign that has run only two sessions so far. I've never played a Barbarian before, but I have recently been pouring over the special abilities I will be getting later on in the campaign. I was looking at the damage reduction ability the Barbarian gains at 7th level. Damage reduction 1 seems like it will be nearly useless at that level. Eventually, it goes up to 5, but that is not until 19th level. This seems to be a rather weak class feature to me. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I understand the Rage ability is very powerful and very cool, as well as other things, such as increased movement, etc. Also, I like the idea of being able to "shrug off damage" via damage reduction, because it just sounds tough. I'm really enjoying my Barbarian so far, and I really like having survival as a class skill. Anyway, what I am asking is, to any of you guys/gals playing Barbarians out there, do you find that Damage reduction is useful to the Barbarian? Don't forget Uncanny Dodge: you can't be sneak attacked by any rogue except when they flank you now. And if they flank you:" you can killt hem with your masive strength. Technically, they could use Feint useage of bluff, but that limits to one attack on you in melee. Improved Uncanny Dodge: they can't Flank you for sneak attack unless 4 levels higher.
ogg205 03-21-06, 01:13 PM	Well, I think that you are right about the damage reduction- it is useless. Even at epic levels, it doesn't quite compensate the way it should. you'd be better off aquiring higher fast healing then. I generally up the damage reduction by about 2-3 to make it a little more worth having.
Ruhl-Than Sage 03-21-06, 01:29 PM	Power Attack and Cleave are a must for heavy damage dealing Two-handed weapon wielders. Whenever you charge you can convert that extra +2 to hit to +4 damage and Weapon Focus will add another +2 damage when converted. If you've got the Complete Adventurer, I would recommend Leap Attack; it should be easy for you to jump that far by the time you get to level 6 as a Barbarian assuming you buy up your ranks of Jump. Brutal Throw (From the same book) might be worthwhile for you too, depending on how much higher your Strength is then your Dexterity. The Feat Greater Resiliency can be found in the Complete Warrior and boosts your DR by one each time taken. Personally I love Destructive Rage, you can break just about anything with that feat. It might not give much actual benefit, but it's lots of fun. No need for open locks, just break down the door. Someone ******* you off at the bar, break the table before you kick their Ass. And if you do take Improved Sunder, then well... Also, Improved Toughness would be a good one to pick up later on. Or, if you are worried about your will saves Iron Will's not a bad idea.
Leach 03-21-06, 01:32 PM	The DR isn't much, but it can add up. Just last week my level 16 Barbarian (DR 3/-) went up against a marilith that, thanks to lucky rolls, scored eleven successful attacks. At the end of it, I was left standing with 14 HP. Suffice it to say, that DR saved my life, at least long enough to get smacked with a heal spell.
malignor 03-21-06, 02:47 PM	I don't know why people say that DR1/- is useless. How many hits does it take to drop you? 5? 10? Well in those 5-10 hits you just got 5-10 HP. What if I gave you an ability that lets you heal 2d4+3 hitpoints as an uninterruptable free action once per day, out of turn? Would you call that useless? I call it saving your arse. d12 hit dice is only (on average) 1 hp/HD higher than 1d10, and 2hp/HD higher than 1d8... I think DR 1/- makes the toughness feat look pitiful, and is often as effective as getting your hit die raised to a mythical "d14", or getting a +1 hp/HD. "useless"... pfeh. If it's useless, remove if from your barbarian character and see how well he fares compared to his clone with the DR. Barbarian DR kicks.
solbergb 03-21-06, 06:00 PM	I also think of the DR as a hitpoint bonus. If in a normal fight you get hit 5 times (not uncommon for a barbarian) than DR1 is +5 hp, DR5 is +25 hp. This tends to put it in the same area as a feat like improved toughness, which gives +1 hp/level. It's a class ability that essentially gives you a feat. It will sometimes be a lot better (low grade continuous damage, or some DM's rule swarms don't really penetrate DR, etc), it will sometimes be not so good (the monster will drop you in two hits, with or without the DR...but again, against such a monster, +20hp at L20 vs +10hp at L20 isn't gonna make any diff either).