Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emir 01-04-04, 08:50 AM	Ok, can someone please talk some sense here? My friend is trying to convince me how Barbarian's are perfectly fine while wearing Full Plate (if they take the feat). Help!
Salla 01-04-04, 09:16 AM	If a Barbarian takes Heavy Armor Proficiency, and wears Plate Armor, he'll lose his extra 10' of movement, but beyond that, he is, in fact, fine. If he wears Plate armor sans the Heavy Armor Proficiency, well, then he *is* in deep trouble. I recently played a Fighter 1/Barbarian (everything else) who wore Full Plate because his Dex was a 10, so he had no reason not to wear the heaviest armor he could get his hands on to cover himself while raging (and eating that -2 AC penalty). So, the only problem with a Barbarian wearing heavy armor is the loss of speed.
Sensei Gith 01-04-04, 01:14 PM	I've heard an argument that Dwarven barbarians do not lose their increased speed, although I disagree with it. Also, any barbarian can wear Mithril full plate just fine.
klyre 01-04-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Sensei Gith I've heard an argument that Dwarven barbarians do not lose their increased speed, although I disagree with it. Also, any barbarian can wear Mithril full plate just fine. If he has heavy armor proficiency. Bit of a quibble but it is in the rules (or FAQ, not sure).
Sophus 01-04-04, 08:57 PM	Originally posted by Sensei Gith I've heard an argument that Dwarven barbarians do not lose their increased speed, although I disagree with it. lol! what will they think of next? dwarf barbs still lose the fast movement bonus from the barbarian class when in any heavy armor p 25 PHB. however, his movement is not penalized for wearing heavy armor because of the racial trait of dwarves. p 14 PHB. this holds true for normal, mundane full plate.
Jere_RB 01-04-04, 09:39 PM	Actually, they're right about mithral full plate. The mithral component will make the armor medium instead of heavy, so a barb won't need heavy armor prof to use it and won't lose the extra 10 feet per round, though the barb in question will be moving slower due to being in medium armor anyway. Oh yeah, from a speed standpoint, I'd rather go with a mithral breastplate anyway. Becomes light, so your base speed doesn't drop and you still get your extra 10 feet per round. Much better, Imho.
Sensei Gith 01-04-04, 10:12 PM	Not if it's a Dwarf barb, arguably the best.
Jere_RB 01-04-04, 10:26 PM	Ah. Yup, forgot about that. Even keeps the extra barb speed so long as the full plate is mithral. Man, I'll have to remember that next time I start a campaign.
Sophus 01-04-04, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by Jere_RB Actually, they're right about mithral full plate. full plate and mithral full plate are very different things. my quote now more precisely indicates that i was talking about full plate and not about mithral.............................
prospero63 01-05-04, 12:18 AM	Aside from appealing to his lameness, there isn't much wrong with it.
Raven Dark 01-05-04, 03:27 AM	Originally posted by Jere_RB: Actually, they're right about mithral full plate. The mithral component will make the armor medium instead of heavy, so a barb won't need heavy armor prof to use it and won't lose the extra 10 feet per round, though the barb in question will be moving slower due to being in medium armor anyway. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Mithral Full Plate still counts as heavy armor for the purposes of proficiency. Without the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat you suffer the armor check penalty to your attack rolls and numerous skill checks. However, it is counted as a medium armor for the purposes of restrictions and penalties. For example a barbarian could wear it without losing his extra speed.
Sensei Gith 01-05-04, 07:49 AM	Could you post some evidence on that?
q'afuu 01-05-04, 08:02 AM	There is no conclusive evidence either way. Personally, I require HAP for heavy armour made from mithral if you don't want to suffer penalties. The words 'considered' and 'treated as' don't mean 'is' in my book. Everyone's free to interpret them differently, of course. I hope this gets clarified in the FAQ though.
kami 01-05-04, 09:47 AM	Most things I've seen in WotC books tend to show no evidence that Heavy Armor Proficiency is needed from wearing Mithral Full Plate or the like. Examples: Underdark. Halfweight armor special ability: [...] A halfweight armor is treated as light in every way, except that the protection it provides is not affected. Thus, a +1 halfweight breastplate is light armor and can be used by someone who has proficiency only with light armor. DMG 3.5. Elven Chain (Mithral Chainmail): [...] It is considered light armor and weights 20 pounds. Nothing there about not being able to wear it without having extra proficiency. Also, it all makes sense. A Full Plate _is_ easier (or at the very last, just as easy) to wear than Scale Mail if you neglect the weight. Mostly due to it being crafted to fit your size. A Mithral Full Plate weights as much as a Chain Shirt or Scale Mail. Totally different to move in.
Skaboozh 01-05-04, 10:07 AM	Wizards has unofficially weighed in on the subject about a million times now. You need heavy armor proficiency to use heavy armor made of mithral. From the SRD: Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Emphasis mine. You still need the heavy armor proficiency, because it is still in fact a 'heavy' armor, but it counts as medium armor for anything related to movement.
Sophus 01-05-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by Skaboozh Wizards has unofficially weighed in on the subject about a million times now. You need heavy armor proficiency to use heavy armor made of mithral. From the SRD: Emphasis mine. You still need the heavy armor proficiency, because it is still in fact a 'heavy' armor, but it counts as medium armor for anything related to movement. i'm sorry but the SRD sucks hard. See DMG p.284: Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations (for example, whether a barbarian can use her fast movement ability while wearing the armor or not). The text in parentheses is NOT in the SRD, through no fault of your own. Please look it up in the books themselves when attempting to lookup a rule. so i would say that our mithral full plated barb is allowed his extra movement. i've always thought that the barbarian armor thing was true even in 3.0...
q'afuu 01-05-04, 07:59 PM	The extra movement was never the issue. Proficiency penalties, that's what we're wondering about.
Sophus 01-05-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by q'afuu The extra movement was never the issue. Proficiency penalties, that's what we're wondering about. cartman: *dammit* o well. after looking it over - i would still say that he wouldn't incur any penalties for being non-proficient. after all he gets his fast movement, right? i look at it this way, why would a game designer make it so complicated - to split up the (armor) proficiency from class ability (fast movement)? they only have so many pages to print on. 'other limitations' could mean a ton of things - which is a two-word attempt to cover rules from 2 300-page books! i'll admit that it could mean that you still need the proficiency. however, it seems too nit-picky to be followed in a game: for an item to be double-counted for armor proficiency. it would be too complicated for something with little (game) impact. i understand your point, that the rules aren't very clear - something i didn't notice before. so realize i'm not trying to establish "i'm right, you're wrong". i too will look forward to what they have to say about it. thanx for input.
Eldren 01-06-04, 01:31 AM	If you want to wear full plate, you need the "Heavy Armor Proficiency" feat, hands down. However, wearing mithril full plate gives you the benefit of wearing medium armor, i.e., a Barbarian could still get their increased movement, the armor weighs less (in fact, since full plate weighs 50 pounds, mithril full plate weighs only 25 pounds), and they get more of their maximum Dexterity bonus (if they have one) to their Armor Class. However, obviously, mithril full plate costs a pretty penny. Some Dungeon Masters, because they want to more tightly control rampant munchkinism, are going to make you have valid justification for having mithril anyway. In some campaign worlds (usually ones where DMs tightly control acquisition of items, magical or masterwork), mithril isn't very easy to come by, and even if you have the cash to purchase a suit of mithril full plate, you have to a) Find the metal and b) Find an armorsmith capable of working with it. From a logic perspective, even in worlds where mithril is a little more common, most warrior types who got their mitts on a suit of mithril full plate aren't likely to sell it, so you aren't likely to be able to wander into an armorer's shop, even in a huge city, and find a ready-made suit of mithril full plate that you can purchase off the rack. As for Barbarians wearing full plate in the first place... It's mostly a flavor issue, but an experienced Barbarian is so far removed from their more barbaric origins as to almost make their class a non-issue. They might start out wearing hides, leather armors, or other light or medium armors, but the more they experience the diversity of the world, and the more they see the natural protective bonus of heavier armors, the more they might consider investing in the skill to wear such armor properly. There aren't a huge number of true "must have" feats for Barbarians anyway, even when incorporating stuff like "Masters of the Wild", so using a feat slot for "Heavy Armor Proficiency" probably isn't all that great a cost to the Barbarian, in terms of denying themselves a different feat. The first character I ever played in 3rd Edition was a Barbarian. By the end of his career, while he had quite fully converted over to Chaotic Evil (he was busy destroying planes of existence; it was a rather high-powered campaign, and subject to a lot of house rules from the Dungeon Master since the Epic Level Handbook hadn't come out yet; we kept up BAB progression, spells per day, etc., for levels beyond 20th; I think we ended the campaign somewhere around 36th level), he had learned the merits of wearing full plate, and had spent a feat slot on the ability to do so. He was an artifact greataxe-wielding, plane-destroying harbinger of chaos and death. B'rak Deathwalker was feared through several realities at the time he started questing after Divine Ranks. He was to be the new Power of Strife in my DM's world. :devil: This, to me, is the inherent weakness, from a role playing standpoint, of the Barbarian as a class. The whole concept is more role playing oriented than class-oriented, as most Barbarians would honestly just be Fighters who come from a tribal background. Once they've wandered the world a bit and have experienced a more sophisticated way of life, there's little reason to hold on to more primitive perspectives, or even primitive fighting styles (like getting really ticked off and laying waste to everything in your sight; granted, the additional hit points are nice, but still...). But, 3rd Edition made an effort to bring back some fan-favorite classes that hadn't made the transition from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition, and the Barbarian and the Monk were the prime examples of that. All things considered, I'm honestly surprised they didn't bring the Cavalier back as well, at least as a core class (I'm aware it's a prestige class in one of the books, although which one is escaping me at the moment, and I'm feeling too lazy to go rifling through mine). So there you have it, at least from my perspective. Barbarians can wear heavy armor if they take the appropriate proficiency, but it offends some folks' idea of the "flavor" of the class.
q'afuu 01-06-04, 06:09 AM	Originally posted by Sophus i look at it this way, why would a game designer make it so complicated - to split up the (armor) proficiency from class ability (fast movement)? they only have so many pages to print on. 'other limitations' could mean a ton of things - which is a two-word attempt to cover rules from 2 300-page books! Which makes it all the more suspicious. If mithril armour is to be considered one category lighter for all purposes, it would have been so much simpler to just say that. 'Other limitations' can indeed mean a ton of things. 'All limitations' can only mean one thing.
Sophus 01-06-04, 07:08 AM	has anyone seen an NPC barbarian in any WotC books that has taken the armor prof (heavy)?? i know i haven't. i haven't seen this feat on a char yet. i tried to look some up but only found Drizzt wearing mithral chain, krusk with elven chain, and others with only breastplate...
Sensei Gith 01-06-04, 08:28 AM	So since Drizz't doesn't do it, it's cheesy.:bored: Look at the NPC gold chart. They probably can't afford Mithril full plate.
Sensei Gith 01-06-04, 08:28 AM	So since Drizz't doesn't do it, it's cheesy.:bored: Look at the NPC gold chart. They probably can't afford Mithril full plate.