Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kasthevampire 12-11-04, 12:58 PM	lets say you start out as a fighter or something. then you multiclass as a barbarian. now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. i think they should add onto the class saying if you choose another class then you can never become a barbarian again
Erix d'Pheer 12-11-04, 01:10 PM	Okaaayyyy... you wanna try and explain why you feel that way? Why should barbarian only be available from level 1?
UZI 12-11-04, 01:22 PM	Its roleplayable...consider a dwarven fighter who's always had a hot temper (that's why he became an adventurer and didn't want to stay with the clan) the character doesn't so much "decide", as the player decides and explains that the dwarf is getting more reckless and hot-tempered.
Sensei Gith 12-11-04, 01:42 PM	The barbarian class does not require barbarism, bloodthirstyness, uncivilized behavior, membership in a "barbaric" society or even (if you have a couple of skill points) illiteracy.
Draconiss 12-11-04, 02:14 PM	Well kasthevampire using your "logic" it would also be impossible for someone to multiclass from fighter into sorceror because theres no way he could just suddenly realize he can cast magic. Trying to apply real-life logic to most D&D is like trying to nail jello to the wall. Its fun for a few minutes but gets old quick.
Ancient Wyrm 12-11-04, 02:22 PM	If you multiclass into barbarian, you don't even have the illiteracy. You've just subscribed to a school of martial thought that emphasizes sheer strength and rage over skill and tactics. EDIT: Or you could always have been a "barbarian" character, but just never tapped into your inner berserker until now. Not all warriors with greataxes dressed in furs are actual members of the barbarian class, you know. But they could become barbs at a later date.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 12-11-04, 02:24 PM	Okay... Its like this... Look at Drizzt, he trained as a fighter in Menzoberanzan, afterward, when he went out into the Underdark he became a creature of impulse, so the Barbarain levels were added to represent that.
gnomeman 12-11-04, 02:38 PM	Yes, i was just goin to, yes, i mean, i was totaly going to say that!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- All bow to the Drizzit :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
RainWolf 12-11-04, 04:00 PM	You're absolutely right, kastthevampire. A fighter "doesn't just" become a barbarian. just like a thief "doesn't just" go to jail. He's arrested. Just like a church "doesn't just" split, a new testament is created and the beliefs are divided in two. A person "doesn't just" become a vampire, he/she's bitten by another vampire. See what I'm getting at? Use your imagination; this is D&D after all. I pray for origionality.
Mirikon 12-11-04, 05:34 PM	How could a fighter suddenly pick up levels in barbarian? Its simple, really. Say this elven fighter, we'll call him Bob, is a member of a city called Tanre. Bob learns to fight at a relatively young age, going to the fighting academy in the city. He becomes the greatest fighter in the city. However, one day he does something to anger the patron god of his people, and is forced to flee the city, and live in the wilds outside of town. During this time, Bob becomes a bit feral, from not having any humanoid contact for so long. But he's still fighting, because life in the wild is harsh. So he starts advancing as a Barbarian. Makes for a great story.
Arcane Guyver 12-11-04, 10:39 PM	Say this elven fighter, we'll call him Bob, is a member of a city called Tanre. Bob learns to fight at a relatively young age, going to the fighting academy in the city. He becomes the greatest fighter in the city. However, one day he does something to anger the patron god of his people, and is forced to flee the city, and live in the wilds outside of town. During this time, Bob becomes a bit feral, from not having any humanoid contact for so long. But he's still fighting, because life in the wild is harsh. So he starts advancing as a Barbarian. Makes for a great story. I agree, to an extent. But what are the other party members doing during this time? Do you roleplay all the impromptu survival training? The Drizzt example is excellent; it shows that yes, a civilized person can go barbarian. That is, if said person is in total isolation for long enough time that speech becomes a difficult thing. That's fine for a solo story. But since D&D is a party-based game, it's hard to force one character to spend years training in a new class without having something for the other characters to do. (Besides the point, why on earth would the party just let the one character run off to live like an animal?) Of course, this goes back to my whole problem with multiclassing. "Oh, I leveled up? Instead of taking another level of Fighter, I'll 'multiclass' and pull a Wizard level out of my halfling arse." :rolleyes: Not in my campaign, bucko. And yes, there's no need to remind me this is just a fantasy game. I hold D&D to a higher standard of realism than other fantasy properties; if I wanted to play a game where you can just switch 'jobs' on the fly, I'd play Final Fantasy (3, 5, Tactics, or 10-2).
Mirikon 12-11-04, 10:51 PM	Well, the example was just to say, yes, it is possible for a civilized fighter to become a barbarian. Just like it is possible for a wizard to become a fighter. And if that halfling fighter wanted tot take a level of wizard, he ought to chat with the DM about it ahead of time, and perhaps start roleplaying his interest in the subject, perhaps by asking the party's other wizard a lot of questions about the craft. Things like that. It is doable, it just takes a bit of creativity and roleplaying on the part of the characters involved.
Arcane Guyver 12-11-04, 11:04 PM	...if that halfling fighter wanted tot take a level of wizard, he ought to chat with the DM about it ahead of time, and perhaps start roleplaying his interest in the subject, perhaps by asking the party's other wizard a lot of questions about the craft. Things like that... I used to think that too, but then again, don't wizards have to go to school? If PC classes were that easy to learn, every commoner would have PC levels. As it stands, even those of exceptional talent (ie, the characters) still require years of training/schooling (hence the starting age modifiers).
Green 12-12-04, 12:18 AM	I used to think that too, but then again, don't wizards have to go to school? If PC classes were that easy to learn, every commoner would have PC levels. As it stands, even those of exceptional talent (ie, the characters) still require years of training/schooling (hence the starting age modifiers). Wizards don't have to go to school per se, but for the most part they do need a mentor of some sort. One way to handle multiclassing from one type of class into another is to have the character begin developing in the direction toward the new class. If all of a sudden its "POOF! I'm a wizard now!" and the spellbook and familiar pop out of nowhere, it would rightly seem awkward. Someone interested in becoming a wizard, for instance, should start doing things prior to taking levels in the class to show their shifting interest. Some things to do would be: seek out a mentor; make, buy, borrow, or steal a spellbook; put some ranks into Knowledge (arana) and Spellcraft; increase Intelligence when you are granted attribute increases; learn some languages common to spellcasting such as Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal. While it does make your character less powerful at his/her first role, it goes a long way toward easing the transition. If you can tell your DM, "I think I'd like Blah to take a wizard level. See, I've done A, B, and C to show his increasing interest in arcane magic," it looks more like you're trying to show character development instead of just capitalizing on the power of arcane spellcasting (IOW, bad metagaming). For the other classes, these are some ideas players should consider: Barbarian. For combat prowess, try taking Martial Weapon Proficiency (a big, heavy weapon), Power Attack (Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun), and Weapon Focus (a big, heavy weapon). For greater physical and mental resilience, think about Endurance (Die Hard), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Toughness. For skills, I'd put a few ranks in some of the barbarian's class skills and/or take feats that grant bonuses to those skills. Also, beefing up Constitution or Strength whenever possible is probably a good idea too. Bard. This one's easy. Enough ranks in Perform to be able to use bardic music as soon as you start taking bard levels. I also wouldn't neglect to put ranks in social skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information; in lieu of that, I'd probably choose feats that grant bonuses to those skils such as Negotiator and Persuasive. Also think about Knowledge (history, local, and nobility/royalty). If you already have arcane casting abilities (especially if you are a sorcerer), it's even better. Increasing Charisma as soon as it's feasible helps too. Cleric. Knowledge (religion) is a must in most cases. Many people who come into faith seek to learn more about it, so even if the character is not particularly scholarly, a few ranks in Knowledge (religion) make sense. For good clerics, Heal is a good thing to take too. I also wouldn't put off Diplomacy for dealing with political aspect of organized religion. Boosting Wisdom is also a good idea. Druid. Survival, Knowledge (nature), and Handle Animal are more or less necessary for the concept since a druid who does not know how to live in the wilderness is not much of a druid. Consider taking Animal Affinity and Self-Sufficient too. Oh, and make sure you have or obtain a decent Wisdom score. Fighter. Since there are so many ways to build a fighter, the only thing I could suggest would be to take combat-oriented feats geared toward your character's eventual fighting style. Picking up Weapon Focus is generally a good idea for all fighter types, though. Monk. Improved Unarmed Combat is redundant given the monk's class abilities, but Weapon Focus (unarmed) is not. Taking it as soon as it's available would be good enough, I think. For the monk's athletic abilities, I'd consider taking Acrobatic and/or Agile as well as putting ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble. To represent the mental and spiritual aspects, putting ranks in Concentration and Knowledge (religion) work well. Paladin. Combine Fighter and Cleric. However, I'd think about Weapon Focus (signature weapon) and feats from the Mounted Combat tree. I'd probably choose a mount prior to being granted the ability by the class to represent the growing bond between paladin and mount as your character advances in the paladin class. However, it's not particularly necessary. Try to make sure your ability scores are well-balanced, favoring your primary combat stat, Wisdom (for spell-casting), and Charisma (for other class abilities). Ranger. Same as druid, but also consider combat feats that a ranger would find useful. Endurance seems redundant due to the ranger's class abilities, but some of the non-combat feats I suggested for the barbarian and monk would work too. Rogue. As with the fighter, there are so many ways to build a rogue that it's almost impossible to have a hard-and-fast rule. However, for a social rogue, you can follow the guidelines for the bard, but omit the Perform skill aspect. For a burglar or thief, ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Sleight of Hand work too; choosing Alertness and Stealthy for feats instead is probably prudent as well. For a more combat-ready rogue, feats that rely on agility and cunning work best: Combat Expertise, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (a light melee weapon or a ranged weapon) work best. For feats, I'd consider things that help boost the auxillary skills since rogues have more than enough skill points to make sure their primary skills are maxed out or close to it. Sorcerer. Magical Aptitude is probably a good start for representing a character's growing knack for arcane magic. Just as with clerics, characters who discover that they have arcane abilities will likely want to learn more about them, so a few ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and/or Spellcraft is a good idea too. Looking over it, I sometimes wonder if it'd have been a good idea if wizards put in prerequisites for multiclassing into classes.
Arcane Guyver 12-12-04, 12:33 AM	You're onto something there. I know RPGA has this thing about how you can't multiclass unless you've spent three or so levels in one class. If a player puts that much effort into showing the characters interest in a different class (like taking feats & cross-class skills for the other class). I'll think about this. I'm still of the opinion that there's a reason for the various starting age modifiers, but that doesn't really help playable multiclassing.
BlaineTog 12-12-04, 12:33 AM	now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. i think they should add onto the class saying if you choose another class then you can never become a barbarian againSo you want your creativity (or, in this case, lack thereof) to be what limits the creativity of others? Interesting.
khyron1144 12-12-04, 01:22 AM	You think barbarian multiclassing out of nowhere is illogical. Okay I agree. Multiclassing out of nowhere is pretty universally illogical, but it does seem to be especially the case for Barbarians and Sorcerors. On the other hand I can see some logical possibilities for becoming a barbarian later in life. One is to be from a barbarian tribe to begin with as say a shaman (probably actually Druid class) and after a time take an interest in arms and discover the potential to tap into the rage of your tribal Bear God (or Wolverine God or Rabid Squirrel God for all I care). Now let's say you're a dwarf Fighter from a civilized regimental army, but circumstances force you to travel with a big, stinky bear-hide clad fellow with a very big axe (obviously a Barbarian). Now let us say you're impressed by his ability to take the worst in a fight and come out swinging (d12 hit die) and his ability to kill things even faster in a frenzied fit of divine madness (Rage ability). You ask him to instruct you in his ways and he shows you some mind over matter techniques (if, you don't mind that you're bleeding and hurting and possibly dying, then it don't matter) and how to tap into your inner anger (somewhat reminiscent of the Adam Sandler movie Water Boy). You also might pick up a bit of woodscraft (Wilderness Lore or whatever the Helheim it is in 3.5) and ability to scare people (Intimidate Skill). Congrats, you are now a Dwarf Fighter X, Barbarian Y.
kasthevampire 12-12-04, 01:58 PM	So you want your creativity (or, in this case, lack thereof) to be what limits the creativity of others? Interesting. i am just saying it would take years of practice to become a wizard but lets say you want to be a sorcerer which is inborn magic it would be like poof! i can now launch magic missles. with a barbarian how would you go from being a wizard to that. i mean if you live with barbarians or something it is possible but if you live in a city your whole life and never see barbarians how would you multiclass. i just don't like the idea of multiclassing in the blink of an eye it should almost be like prestige classes but less strict requirements
RainWolf 12-12-04, 03:23 PM	i am just saying it would take years of practice to become a wizard but lets say you want to be a sorcerer which is inborn magic it would be like poof! i can now launch magic missles. with a barbarian how would you go from being a wizard to that. i mean if you live with barbarians or something it is possible but if you live in a city your whole life and never see barbarians how would you multiclass. i just don't like the idea of multiclassing in the blink of an eye it should almost be like prestige classes but less strict requirements You're practical, I'll give you that. I think you're right in as many cases as you're wrong in. If an old wizard with a flowing beard and violet robes decides to become a barbarian at ANY point, it would mean he wasted a good bit of his life on wizardry. In this scenario, perhaps multi-classing should only be available to younger level players? Just a thought. However, on the other hand, I've learned in writing there is something called internal conflict. Let's say a dwarf, after many years of being a dwarf and fighting like a dwarf, suddenly lets out a burst of built up uncontrolled fury. If he likes the feeling, he may try to reinvent it more often, therby subconciously becoming a part barbarian, or at least starting on the path to becoming one. I don't know, every game is different, every opinion holds sway. My final advice is: If you don't like the idea of multi-classing, don't.
BlaineTog 12-12-04, 03:32 PM	i am just saying it would take years of practice to become a wizard but lets say you want to be a sorcerer which is inborn magic it would be like poof! i can now launch magic missles. with a barbarian how would you go from being a wizard to that. i mean if you live with barbarians or something it is possible but if you live in a city your whole life and never see barbarians how would you multiclass. i just don't like the idea of multiclassing in the blink of an eye it should almost be like prestige classes but less strict requirementsI repeat: because you are having trouble stretching your brain to accomodate this idea, you want to make it so others who can stretch their brains arn't able to do anything about it. If you don't want to multiclass into wizard from barbarian, don't. Just don't tell me that I can't either.
Rurik "The Silent" 12-12-04, 03:35 PM	I think the main difference between the fighter and barbarian is jut pure fighting style. A barbarian will focus more on attacking while a fighter will most likely be focusing on his defense also. Both are reasonable. I agree with both arguments so far. But i tinhk it is perfectly logical to have a fighter turn to a barbarian. Lets say the player starts a lawful neutral fighter. As he progresses the Dm notes that the way the fighter acts and does battle is actually rather chaotic. So his alignment turns to chaotic neutral. The character is irratable and can lose himself in his tempter making him more hot headed. Then the character picks up barbarian levels becasue this is how he fights. even though the fighter represents a trained warrior. The barbarian represents a trained warrior that gets lost in the moment. This is the same logic behind an experienced army will beat an unexperienced one. No matter how much you are trained how you ac t in the moment is pure instinct. For a barbarian it is attack, and for a fighter is is anaylisis and tactical fighting.
Grigori 12-12-04, 03:44 PM	This is why the character creation is such a 'big deal'. You come up with a good concept, a background and 'where you want to go with it'. That should cover the majority of your multi-classing, prestige classes and overall 'concept'. If you don't come up with a background for your character, you're missing out on half of character creation, not to mention depriving your DM of a few good potential story hooks and ideas. ;)
glimeral 12-12-04, 03:56 PM	actually i find it more reasonable to think a fighter can become a barbarian than they could a wizard. A level 1 wizard has spent YEARS learning their craft and the fighter picks it up by 2nd level after say a month traveling... Somehow that stretches realism a bit...If they "apprenticed" themselves for years or so or for their entire career by say 10th level it would make sense. This isnt about common sense though.. You can multiclass into whatever you are eligable for. Common sense choices are assumed but not mandatory but I hear you. Thats why most people limit the AMOUNT of multiclassing a person does without making them feel jaded with the game.
GRAOUH !!! 12-12-04, 06:59 PM	It's a common problem with a lot of classes, even with rogue : you don't learn to be a good pickpocket, acrobat or anatomy specialist in only one or two months. Your character is supposed to have the background (hobbies, true interest, fascinations, family tradition or else) to develop the way the player wants. Multiclass exists because classes exists. You can't develop a character in different domains in D&D without multiclassing. Classes are ok if you like to specialize a lot, but some people can't stand to be only able to use only swords or only spells. You can argue that the bard is made for them, but you know it's false as each class has it own flavour. If a character starts as a wizard, then take warrior levels and in the end continue full barbarian it just means that this character have followed the best way offered to him at the begining but have discovered day after day what place in battles he prefers. Or means anything that can go in a human mind. A poet can decide to become a soldier, a criminal can decide to change his life and promote the law after have seen both sides. Learn to rage in battle is not the most difficult class ability to learn, look at how people learn to rage just inside their cars For romans and greeks barbarian was just a term used for foreigner, so you just have to go in another country to be a barbarian ;)
kasthevampire 12-12-04, 07:08 PM	it is easy to imagine a barbarian multiclassing as a fighter because he could serve in an army or something but from such an extreme as wizardy to barbarianism is hard to imagine. just a thought.considering most wizards are pretty old i find it strange that all of a sudden he wants to be a barbarian. also for the romans and barbarians. since rome was pretty much the only country at the time aside from barbarian tribes you were either part of rome or the barbarians.
BlaineTog 12-12-04, 07:18 PM	i find it strange that all of a sudden he wants to be a barbarian.Fine. Why should this prevent others who don't find it strange from multiclassing? also for the romans and barbarians. since rome was pretty much the only country at the time aside from barbarian tribes you were either part of rome or the barbarians.:uh-huh: All I can say is that you should go read a history book.
glimeral 12-12-04, 07:24 PM	The greeks considered egyptians barbarians. The greeks considered romans barbarians. The greeks considered persians barbarians. The greeks considered Hitites barbarians. The greeks considered everyone barbarians except other greeks... Why? Because the litteral meaning of the word Barbarian in ancient greek meant "Someone who is not greek". I can only assume it was the bastardization of the Romans and their constant warring with the gauls which caused the change in terms. The Romans screwed with many aspects of greek culture and in most cases it is the Roman version of such culture which has survived to today. Take the greek legends... There never was a Hercules. There was a Heracles. There never was a Jason. There was Eulyses (sp). Hera, Zeus, Apollo.... Their names and focus have all been skewed over time also. This slight tangent however, does not change the fact that Barbarians in DnD represent uncivilized wilderness tribes (traditionally). But have you ever looked at myth... Cultured people went into the wilderness all the time. Some adopted the barbarian lifestyle. They didnt forget their previous abilities however. Romulus and Remus were raised by wolves originally also and would have been barbarians in the modern sense (most likely where the idea for Tarzan came from too I might add)... Incidentilly, the legend of Romulus and Remus is the ONLY original myth the Romans came up with (as far as I know). Everything else was as a result of amalgamation with the greek empire (and historically the greek gods and myths were adopted partially so that the greeks would not go to war with the romans).
RatFlail OF DOOM!!!! 12-12-04, 07:35 PM	Just think of it like this.... the same way george bush became president. Its in the blood along with stupidness.
Zetakya 12-12-04, 07:40 PM	since rome was pretty much the only country at the time aside from barbarian tribes you were either part of rome or the barbarians. That was the Roman view of the world, not the actual state of affairs. That's pretty much like, say, the Elves considering all other races to be Barbarians. Not unusual, but the inhabitants of those lands aren't exclusively Barbarian-class Barbarian, as a class, means "melee combatant who uses on Rage and fury to overpower enemies in combat" Does it make sense for a Sorceror, say, to multiclass as a Barbarian? That depends on how angry the Sorceror is, really. From a let-crunch-the-numbers Metagame perspective, no, it probably doesn't. But that isn't important. From a 1st person perspective it might make perfect sense. Taking your example of a fighter multiclassing as a Barbarian, perhaps this Fighter has been frustrated in many endeavours, and has been bottling up his feelings until it finally comes forth in a burst of Rage. From then on, he is multiclass Ftr/Bar. Thats a perfectly reasonable transition from pure Fighter to multiclass.
Ancient Wyrm 12-12-04, 10:17 PM	Of course, this goes back to my whole problem with multiclassing. "Oh, I leveled up? Instead of taking another level of Fighter, I'll 'multiclass' and pull a Wizard level out of my halfling arse." :rolleyes: Not in my campaign, bucko. And yes, there's no need to remind me this is just a fantasy game. I hold D&D to a higher standard of realism than other fantasy properties; if I wanted to play a game where you can just switch 'jobs' on the fly, I'd play Final Fantasy (3, 5, Tactics, or 10-2). Well, it's not like he just suddenly becomes a wizard in the middle of a dungeon; at least, he shouldn't. I always award xp after the adventure is over; in the downtime, you can assume a character who is multiclassing is working with a mentor or teacher, or just running around in the forest screaming and practicing tearing up trees, depending on the class. "Downtime" is an important tool for the DM's storytelling; many mechanics assume characters are getting some (notably a wizard scribing new spells at each level).
Arcane Guyver 12-12-04, 10:31 PM	Downtime is important; it shouldn't be used as an excuse though. I'm thinking the player should roleplay out, showing the other players that his character is going out of the way to figure out a whole new class. It'd feel real cheesy if, at a level up, the character changes his class without warning, and explains it away as "ah, well, when you guys weren't around I was practicing...really!"
Jell_Moo 12-12-04, 11:03 PM	I think it's the very name Barbarian that gives people trouble. Change the name to Berserker if it gives you trouble. Instead of a member of a nomadic tribe, think of him as a strong warrior who uses utter ferocity to overcome his enemies. Also, I hate I hate I hate it when people try to put "restrictions" on multiclassing. Not every little detail has to be played out. Some things can simply be assumed. Having a Rogue who wants to take a few levels of Fighter take Martial Weapon Prof as a feat is a complete and utter waste. Blowing a feat on something you'll get anyway is gimping the character. Multiclassing is very rarely a stretch, and just about any character concept can be altered to make room for a new class.
Zetakya 12-12-04, 11:23 PM	I think it's the very name Barbarian that gives people trouble. Change the name to Berserker if it gives you trouble. Instead of a member of a nomadic tribe, think of him as a strong warrior who uses utter ferocity to overcome his enemies. Yes, you have exactly the point there. Berserker has less of the cultural resonance that Barbarian suffers from - although there is still some (mainly of a norse flavour), people realise more readily that Berserk is a state of mind, and that the character is an individual within a setting. Also, I hate I hate I hate it when people try to put "restrictions" on multiclassing. Not every little detail has to be played out. Some things can simply be assumed. Having a Rogue who wants to take a few levels of Fighter take Martial Weapon Prof as a feat is a complete and utter waste. Blowing a feat on something you'll get anyway is gimping the character. I personally would be inclined to return such feat-slots to the character for re-use, seeing as the Martial Weapon proficiency was part of the development of the character. Or else convert it to Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization (at Ftr4). That way is reasonable to display that the character really does mean to become a member of the class, without either horribly "gimping" themselves or suffering from the *poof* method. Multiclassing is very rarely a stretch, and just about any character concept can be altered to make room for a new class. Well really it would be better to have the new class implied in the characters ongoing development. The stats and numbers are useful, but unless you RP it you wouldn't get anywhere with me DMing ^_^
Edymnion 12-12-04, 11:32 PM	I personally would be inclined to return such feat-slots to the character for re-use, seeing as the Martial Weapon proficiency was part of the development of the character. Or else convert it to Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization (at Ftr4).Agreed, I'd convert the extra prof feat into a Weapon Focus Because, hey, you did focus in that particular weapon, right?
glimeral 12-13-04, 12:16 AM	IMO there is two main styles of gamer. Those that come to the table to imagine themselves in a fantasy world, and those that come to the table to play what I call pen-and-paper MUDs (Multi-user dungeons). Before I get into what I am about to discuss I first want to discuss the differences between these two game styles. Roleplayers are pretty self explainatory. They get down to a 1st person perspective with their character, doing their best to THINK and ACT the way they think their character would act. Generally speaking, roleplayers will not grumble with the suggestion I will be making below, thinking it as an enhancement to the game which helps to create cohesion to the suspension of disbelief that is being created through the game itself. Pen and Paper MUD gamers however, will most likely flame my suggestion below seeing it as an unneccesary restriction placed upon their character. The reason I came up with the above name is because gamers of this style see their characters from a 3rd person perspective in much the same way as you see yourself as separate from your character in a 1st person shooter. Just like in a multi-player shooter game, these gamers "tend" to create characters that they can throw against increasingly difficult opponents to see if they can beat them (read: win). This mindset comes with a win/loose attitude which doesnt mesh well with the attitude of the roleplayer MOST of the time. Before I am flamed, I realise that both of these styles are VALID and that both styles also find in their midst members of the Munchkin, Min/Maxer and Powergamer subtypes. I am not trying to state that one style of gaming is better than the other, only that they are different and tend not to mesh well with each other. I personally tend to walk the fine line between the two styles myself, enjoying getting down to a 1st person perspective with my character but at the same time enjoy seeing my character go up against increasingly difficult challenges in much the same way I described the PnP MUD players. My style of gaming involves heavy min/maxing almost boardering on munchkinism although I also love to place a critical flaw into my character which I can exploit through roleplaying as the characters shortcomings. I personally enjoy the fact that the PnP MUD gamer offshoot has come into play for one simple reason.... It shows that the game is ever evolving from its birth at the table of some disgruntled miniature wargamers who wanted to take it to the 1st person perspective. Just like playing cards, the basic tools of the roleplaying game are being used in ever increasingly different ways, creating different sub-games with the same tools. If everyone played their games the same way, this would get very boring very quickly and we will see the life of this great and wonderful game splutter and die. As a side note, I praise Wizards with reviving roleplaying into a more upbeat and enticing morsel for one simple reason. Before 3.0 came out, veteran gamers everywhere were concerned about the lack of new blood coming into the roleplaying fold (regardless of system). When 3.0 came out, we have seen such an influx of new blood that it has revived the game community so that it does not die out. Where would all us gamers who have been around for decades (myself since 1991) be if our favorite games stopped bringing out new material due to a lack of interest? Anyway, I think that it is the differing mindsets between these two player types that tends to create a lot of these very interesting discussions on this board especially between differing points such as whether said feat or class is overpowered, weak, broken or something in the middle.
kidman 12-13-04, 01:03 AM	[QUOTE=kasthevampire] but from such an extreme as wizardy to barbarianism is hard to imagine. just a thought.considering most wizards are pretty old i find it strange that all of a sudden he wants to be a barbarian. QUOTE] One word Ragemage prc
glimeral 12-13-04, 01:08 AM	My previous post leads into the actual point that I wanted to make on this thread.... One tactic that I find very useful when gaming with roleplayers (as opposed to PnP MUD gamers) is to have called leveling. At character creation and again at each level, the player informs the DM of their character goals for NEXT level including skill ranks, feats, classes, PrCs etc. The DM takes note of this information and, if neccessary, tailors certain encounters so that the player gets the opportunity to roleplay their future choices. If they wanted to take weapon focus for example, then the DM should realistically see them wielding the chosen weapon frequenlty in battle, reminding them gently if they fail to roleplay their choices. This is not meant to penalize the players, far from it... it is to encourage roleplaying. If you want to get proficiency in an exotic weapon and dont even HAVE such a weapon at your disposal it is up to the DM to provide it... and up to the player to fight with it at least semi-frequently (taking the -4 non-proficiency penalty associated with it) to represent their attempt at mastering their chosen weapon. In regards to multiclassing into another class, roleplaying should come into this also... If the fighter wants to multiclass as a wizard next level they should seek out wizard characters and have long discourses on the theories of magic over the campfire (very easy if there is already a wizard in the party). He should purchase a spellbook and a spellcomponent pouch and study in his downtime with another wizard. The rogue who wants to multiclass into a fighter should at least spend a couple of rounds of combat per encounter going toe-to-toe with their enemies (instead of the more flanking style combat of the rogue character). When the character is half-way through their current level i would give them the special abilities of a 0-level member in their chosen class. For the next half of their current level I would watch them consciously to see whether they make use of the "skills" they are attempting to learn. Upon reaching their next level, if they havent shown enough improvement, they retain their 0-level abilities but cannot advance to a 1st level member in the chosen class. Instead they must advance one of their other classes instead. Under this system a character can only have one 0-level class. They cannot multi-class into any other class or PrC until such times as they gain 1st level in the class they are apprenticing themselves in. As far as classes not found in the PHB, I would create a 0-level character with the same level of abilities as other 0-level classes. As far as PrCs go, I would work this differently... If a player wanted to gain a level in a PrC at their next level advancement It would be the role of the DM to provide them the opportunity to petition for membership in the desired class, seek out a teacher or, depending on the class, must roleplay their own self discovery. During the first half of their level, the DM steers the player towards "meeting" the desired group or, depending on the class, uncovering the secrets neccessary to become a member of that class (such as for alienist, green star adept, acolyte of the skin etc). During this level is when any roleplaying requirements (such as peaceful contact with an evil outsider) should also come into play. Again, upon reaching the half-way mark, the character knows about the group they are desiring to be, and the requirements to become a member of that PrC. If the PrC is an organization, this would be the point when they petition for membership in the organization and undertake testing to become a member of that group. If the PrC requires pouring over ancient manuscripts, this should be the point in their career when they learn where such tomes are (or gain possession of such a tome for study). Upon reaching their next level, they become a 1st level member of their chosen PrC unless they have not shown enough interest in pursuing the class through roleplaying. As above, those who do not roleplay their choices cannot multi-class at this level. Unlike a core class however, the character can give up pursuing their PrC choice if they so desire (as all PrCs require skill sets which the character has already developed rather than skill sets that the character does not currently possess). Of course, this requires the DM to be very fair. If a player has their heart set on ANY combination of character, the DM should provide ample opportunity during roleplaying for them to aquire it, tailoring encounters so that they can do so. If a player forgets to roleplay their choices (such as a brief mention at the start of a new day about how much they enjoyed the discussion on the extraplanar creatures of the elemental plane of air (knowledge planes) simply reminding them is usually sufficient as not all roleplayers are going to remember to do this all the time and shouldnt be penalized for it. Finally, characters should only level up during downtime and in a system like this, there needs to be a fair bit of it. Encounters in such a campaign are going to take on less of a hack and slash feel and more of an interpersonal interaction feel, with characters spending just as much time seeking out training as they are slaying monsters and looting dungeons. Ad Hoc roleplaying rewards should be very common as a result, especially if such roleplaying directly enhances what their character is attempting to achieve. Such a campaign is more character driven also, with encounters being INITIALISED by the PC characters more frequently than by the DM. Sure, they will still be thrust into DM inspired encounters such as marauding ogres, but this game style takes the game to a more Real world feel where the characters go about their lives according to THEIR choices. This game takes a lot of work on the DMs part in order to take all of the parties varied interests into consideration and designing adventures that take them all into play. Of course, the above is purely a guideline as it may be impossible for each player to gain all of their desires at the exact same time... see the example below. Example of called leveling in action For example lets assume one player wants to multi-class as a druid, another wants to become a greenstar adept, another wants to become a temple raider of olidamara and a fourth wants to gain the extra turning feat. Finally, one of the characters also desires to gain the craft construct feat so he can manufacture golems. The prospective green star adept learns that the archwizard Polymorphicus was a master at golemcrat and uncovered the secrets of bonding starmetal to himself in order to become a living golem himself. However, the location of Polymorphicus Manual of Golemcraft has been lost for centuries. Through deeper research and divination, they learn that a crazy druid out in the wilderness knows the location of Polymorphicus' tome. Traveling to this druid he informs them that he indeed knows the location, but before he will guide them there, they must perform a service for him. Namely they must steal the sacred oak of Obad Hai from the druids of Myrandeep to the south west. No manner of conversation will get him to convince them to tell them the location of the tome or why he wants the sacred wood so off they trot to the temple where the sacred oak lies. This encounter is geared in favor of the future temple raider, so that they can hone their skills at stealing artifacts from other temples. Upon returning to the crazy druid, he is delighted with their find and offers to guide them to the tomes location (giving the prospective druid character ample opportunity to converse with him on druidcraft and the ways of being a druid) eventually becoming the apprentice of the crazy wild man. Traveling deep into the jungle they come upon an overgrown mosoleum hidden within the wilds. Traversing its depths they encounter numerous undead creatures which bombard them wave after wave from some unknown source (your choice whether they uncover this source or not) causing them to rely heavily on turning just to survive. At the end of their journey is their prized artifact which details the rituals of becoming a greenstar adept (although it requires study to do so) as well as detailed discourses on golemcraft (as a manual of the golem and allows the other character to gain the craft golem feat). This is just one example and as you can see, can be a very rewarding game for each character. I also allow players to tell me what types of equipment they want to find and insert their desired gear into the treasure from time to time (providing of course that I would allow their chosen item in teh first place).
Shaftiel 12-13-04, 01:18 AM	Just playing devil's advocate here, I think that it might actually be really easy to enter into ANY of the classes. By the rules, it doesn't actually say that any of the stuff is all that hard to enter. Most people (myself included) just house rule it to be so. Barbarian - A wizard just snaps one day (hopefully while polymorphed into a troll) and starts beating people to death with his staff. Spends a few hours messing around with weapons, a little time in the woods, and presto! Barbarian! Wizard - Brion the Int 12 Fighter gets sick of being zapped all the time and nabs a spellbook. It takes him a couple of days to work out how to cast read magic, but when he final gets it, he's shocked. The vaunted arcane spells are written out "Step 1: Point your finger at the enemy. Step 2: Picture the following image (complex page-filling image follows). Step 3: Say "ulla-lilla." Presto! Wizard! Sorcerer - Just shoot a magic missile. No, don't try, just do. You're still trying rather than doing. Oh, wait, there you go! Magic missile! Presto! Sorcerer! Rogue - 99% is chutzpah. Are you really crazy enough to try and bluff your way into the kings dungeon, poke around for the certain death trap, pick which trip wire to cut (the red or the blue?), and then try and open the vault lock? Congratulations! You're a rogue! Monk - Follow through on your punches. Hit them in the throat or the jaw. Protect your neck by keeping your chin down when you get grappled. And for god's sake, when horrible magic and disease and poison hit you, don't give up, fight it! Presto! Monk! Are these examples tongue-in-cheek? Well yeah.... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong. I have no idea how good +1 BAB is in the "real world" - heck, it might be the equivalent of one self-defense class. And I've never seen a spell book that let you shoot magic missiles, so I don't know how hard that is to do either. I don't even know what 4 ranks in a skill actually means; as a math major, I figure I have between 1 and 8 ranks in Know (math) but that's as far as I can narrow it down. In any case, the house rule that +1 BAB = 4 years of marial training (or whatever) is just that, a house rule, and "easy training" makes about as much sense as anything else. -Shaftiel
ReBell48 12-13-04, 01:18 AM	Odd I'd consider myself more into the Mud gaming camp, but I think that sounds ideal. It requires a bit more effort as a group planning ahead at least a level or two and more work as the DM, but it gives you so much room for tailored adventures and opportunities. Who wouldn't want a game like that? Great post glimeral, I'm printing this for my group to read.
kidman 12-13-04, 01:22 AM	im more of a role player. I like building exotic guys with complex backrounds they may not be the best but they are fun!!!
guru7892 12-13-04, 01:26 AM	lets say you start out as a fighter or something. then you multiclass as a barbarian. now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. i think they should add onto the class saying if you choose another class then you can never become a barbarian again psicological issues. you may be trained in the ways of war... and then snap. and even then you can gain a new perspective... and snap again untill soon you learn there is no perspective and then you just try to master both rage and harmony and thus become a very enlightend and powerful person. you ever notice how animals can kill you? and you know they dont study a style of fighting. its all about an intelligent, mindful defense and a rancorous recklass offense, becasue a mindful offense leads you to see you cant attack and a recklass defence is a good offense...
Arcane Guyver 12-13-04, 02:48 AM	Good work, glimeral. That was similar to what I was thinking of doing, except you threw in 0-levels (a nice touch and incentive).
glimeral 12-13-04, 03:15 AM	yeah the 0-levels are a bit of an early reward for all the roleplaying effort. I mean, it basically means they have a class and a half and all that... Incidentilly I didnt describe the whole idea, including say for example that at the half way point the person who is aiming for EWP would get a -2 to attack rolls instead of -4 (half penalty), etc. Unless they start roleplaying another feat, they would get EWP at next level signifying that they master the weapon. If they change their mind to a different feat (which I wont stop them providing they roleplay it) they give up their EWP focus and due to lack of training and perserverance their improving skill with the exotic weapon attrifies back to its previous -4 penalty. The character who roleplays how they learn spring attack might do somethign to the effect of moving towards their target one round, then moving away from them the second round (a 2 round spring attack)... By the halfway mark I would let them gain the half-spring attack ability which lets them make a 5 foot step towards their opponent, and a 5 foot step away from them, becoming the full spring attack feat at their next level. Alternately the character might explain their "fake" spring attacks by saying "I lunge towards my opponent (movement) and attack them at the end of my lunge". By this description their attack comes at the end of their movement (before they actually finish moving). Some feats I would assume are part of downtime... I mean its not fair to expect a fighter going for blindfight to wear a blindfold or anythign in combat (although if they did i would grant them bonus roleplaying XP). Depends on the situation and what the character is going after... As I described in the original post, you dont need to actually HAVE long winded discourses on air elementals actually roleplayed out, but you can make a brief mention of it and ASSUME that it happened the previous evening. Again you wouldnt have to mention this all the time either, just occasionally..... In the above example with knowledge (planes) it is a trained only skill. If they roleplay that they are learning this skill, at the half-way mark of their level I would allow them to make skill checks with the skill untrained. Upon reaching their next level, they gain the skill points normally with a requirement that they must gain at least 1 rank in the skill when leveling (cannot change their mind). As far as advancing skills go, i require characters to USE a skill throughout their level in order to advance it. If they havent made any knowledge (planes) checks or researched tomes on the nature of the planes, i wont let them increase their skill more than 1 rank. This system makes level advancement more fluid (with benefits gained every half level or so) instead of every level... The wizard who is going to learn new spells, at the half-way mark i let him scribe one of his "free" spells into his spellbook (and if his next wizard level is going to grant him higher level spells, that spell can be of the new spell level also, they just cant cast it yet)... When they level up, they add the second spell to their spellbook. I believe in rewarding roleplaying, and this system rewards clever roleplaying with roleplaying based benefits.
Zetakya 12-13-04, 03:38 AM	I use a similar system when I am DMing. One of the benefits to it is that it tends to reduce Min/Maxing in favour of characters whose skills have been developed by trial and error and therefore tend to be a bit more balanced. One thing I do that glimeral hasn't mentioned is allow characters to hold off on spending points if they desire to do so for some reason. I find that forcing a character to spend all the points - especially skill points - at the time of levelling can be a little too limiting in the available opportunities. This is especially the case for knowledge, craft and profession skills, which I will allow my characters to store skill points up to get when the opportunity presents itself - downtime in cities and other places of learning. The numbers are just representational of progression; what is important, really, is how you obtain that progression.
CaoSlayer 12-13-04, 03:51 AM	one of the many posible solution would be requiring a character who multiclasses to have some background preparation before the start of the adventure... this rule wise means that will start the game at a higher age that someone who is going straight in a class. I would rule that a character must add the half of the starting age roll for each additional class that he wants to take. so if a human it is planing from the start being a fighter and then a wizard, must then roll a 1d6 for fighter and then an extra 1d6 for wizard (being the normal 2d6). This assumes than the character have been training at the two classes at once. so a fighter who wants to multiclass as barbarian must then had lived in the wildness 1d4/2 years as a barbarian in the past.
glimeral 12-13-04, 04:13 AM	i didnt think of that point about saving up skill points..... incidentilly, i havent slept more than 3 hours today, got a 2 week old newborn and im up most of the night with him lolol so my mind is a little unfocused right now. Im sure you are laughing at my commetn about an unfocued mind given the type of postings I have been writing...
Zetakya 12-13-04, 05:21 AM	:D I've been up for 36 hours and counting myself now, so I'm probably making little more sense than you :eek: Rampant insomnia is my only problem though I really think that the main advantage of systems where you have to use features that you are advancing is the reduction is the attractiveness of Min/Max characters though. It really does become noticable by about level 10 when a character is well rounded and can adapt to a range of situations with decent efficiency, instead of being a one-trick-pony. The method of delaying skill aquisition if desired is very necessary when you run long duration endurance campaigns, as I tend to do.
Lawless 12-13-04, 10:23 AM	lets say you start out as a fighter or something. then you multiclass as a barbarian. now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. i think they should add onto the class saying if you choose another class then you can never become a barbarian again I'm originally from the rural south (of the US), where there is a saying. "You can take the man out the country but you can't take the country out of the man." Of course the grammar is typically more broken when actually spoken in the south. :) Anyway, if a PC starts out a barbarian its very easy to see how they can fall back into it. It's who they are. As for starting out something else and becoming a barbarian. That to me require roleplaying, and more than just tapping one's inner anger, IMO the PC would have to spend a great deal of time under conditions that would placate an absence of 'culture/etiquette'. Like spending time in the wilds by themselves, or maybe being in solitairy confinement in a prison for year, heck spending a year in a maximum security prison period where C.Y.A. is a way of life and not just good advice. Some of the other classes if I were DMing and depending on the conditions I'd say required rping also. Fighter that decides to multiclass as a wizards better have been spending sometime with a wizard, and should buy a rank or two on 'wizard like' skills, (i.e. Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcane)). Same as sorcerer and maybe a cleric and monk. Starting off as a class is one thing becoming another depending on the circumstances is something completely different. My 2 cps.
CaoSlayer 12-13-04, 10:35 AM	now that I recall it, one of my DMīs once used a funny house rule about adding new classes... the trick was that in 3.0 there was level 0 for each class (aprendice levels) and so when one wanted to add a level of ranger the master told him of adding the level 0 prc the class and once he gained half the xp required to gain another level, he was able to be a true level 1 ranger.
SweetMeats 12-13-04, 11:45 AM	I way I look at barbarians as a core class, is that they are melee combatants that rely on instinct rather than skill and training (which is more Fighter). They don't have to be a barbarian as per a tribe.
Tony Vargas 12-13-04, 12:39 PM	lets say you start out as a fighter or something. then you multiclass as a barbarian. now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. The barbarian class is a little odd than it's almost more like a culture than a class, and it can be hard to conceptualize taking that 1st level of barbarian at any level other than first. Of course, it's mainly just an RP consideration, and you can lay the RP groundwork for it. For instance, you can have a fighter who is from a barbaric culture. Most of his peers would really be warriors (NPC class), as neither fighters nor barbarians are all that common. Some of them would be actual barbarians, but, our example fighter was a bit more disciplined and dedicated in his training, so is a fighter. He still has the same cultural underpinings as a barbarian, though, and could easily get in touch with an 'inner rage' and begin developing skills he was exposed to in his youth, but never pursued, like survial, after he begins his adventuring career. Or, you could have a fighter from a civilized culture who begins advancing as a barbarian after living and fighting among (or even fighting against) more barbaric peoples. It can make sense for it to happen, so, it's allowed by the rules. A lot of things are /allowed/ by the rules. Fighters are proficient in the club, and a fighter could insist on fighting with clubs his entire career - that's perfectly legal to do, but it wouldn't make sense for most fighters. Same with multiclassing - it can make sense for some characters more than others, but it's technically legal for all.
Hairfoot 12-13-04, 03:56 PM	Who's to say a barbarian has to be a savage? A barbarian needn't be primitive, a sorcerer doesn't have to be draconic, rogues aren't expected to be greedy little cutthroats, and people often play elves as if they're tough and interesting. The class descriptor in the PHB is just an example of the thousands of concepts you can apply to the bundle of game mechanics titled "barbarian". Raging doesn't have to mean screaming and and foaming at the mouth. Maybe...the character has spriggan blood and raging means he enlarges a bit. Maybe he is a civilised, cultured, and disciplined warrior who can focus his will to become a deathly-silent juggernaut for a few rounds. Perhaps she's a cultist who puts on a ceremonial mask and believes she becomes invincible. Flavour text doesn't have to be a straight jacket for characters. Now, back to my kleptomaniac ballet-bard dwarf. I wonder if his pony-sized chihuahua would have the same stats as a riding dog...
Soulmage 12-13-04, 04:26 PM	lets say you start out as a fighter or something. then you multiclass as a barbarian. now my question is how the heck would that happen you just decide to become a barbarian. i think they should add onto the class saying if you choose another class then you can never become a barbarian again I'm with you on this one. For this reason, if somebody wishes to play a barbarian in my campaign it must be selected at 1st level. Additionally, once a level is taken by a barbarian in any other class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Ranger excepted) he may never again rise in levels as a barbarian. Was this change needed for game balance? No. Does it limit the player's choices? Absolutely. Do I feel that it makes more sense this way? Yup. Will others feel differently? Almost definitely. Really, without a rule of this kind - there is no rules driven reason why ANY fighter wouldn't be better off picking up a couple levels of barbarian at some point over a straight fighter. (There may be character issues, but from a power standpoint its a mistake not to). At least with this rule if somebody wants to run a fighter/barbarian, it can be a barbarian warrior that came to civilization and learned more sophisticated and subtle techniques than the straight-up power style he was used to. Very Conan-like.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 12-13-04, 04:30 PM	Okay... *points back to his Drizzt Example* If your that concerned about powergaming put a role playing requirement on it.
solbergb 12-13-04, 04:53 PM	I would also consider the thought that classes may not fit a character but a mix of them might. Just as a simple example...I've got an elf ranger type, with the usual ranger focus (decent at sneaking, fairly alert, doesn't starve in the forest etc) whose grandfather is an Arcane Archer. "When are you gonna teach me magic Grandpa?" "When you learn how to shoot properly." What's properly? Well...to Grandpa, it's the feat requirements for Arcane Archer, plus weapon spec, cause my character has one crotchety Elf. But my character also had to hunt for his tribe and feed them before he became an adventurer. Which means he can't just start out as a fighter and stick with it. So he's doing blended ranger and fighter levels, enough ranger levels to keep his hunting skills up, enough fighter levels to get that weapon spec. (yeah, he'll take an xp penalty. Sometimes you have to do that to fit your character concept). Then and only then, when he can shoot properly... Grandpa teaches him how to do arcane magic...and there was a lot of "wax on/wax off" stuff in the last 100 years, so he's most of the way there already...
Osiris Memnoch 12-13-04, 05:17 PM	Yeah, and a level 1 monk is assumed to have spent 20+ years training in a monastary, but anyone can take a level in monk anytime provided they are a lawful alignment. If this is really a problem for you, then require a logical roleplayed explanation in your games. Plenty of people have offered logical ways someone could go about playing it out.