Barbarian's Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian's Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hendel
09-25-04, 12:49 PM If this has already been discussed, then I am sorry to bring it up again, but could somebody post a link to that thread.

My problem is with barbarians and their rage ability.

My question specifically deals with reaching negative hit points and coming out of the rage. No matter what the case, if you have a barbarian with five or more levels that falls to -1 hit points and if that means that his rage is ended because he is unconscious, then he will automatically die. I know they have the buffer of extra hit points so that they won't die, but it seams as if they are furthered denied the use of the ten negative hit points that all other characters or creatures get. Is the rage actually an effect that the barbarian concentrates on? No, I don't think so. Is it an effect that should at least last the duration of the effect even if unconscious or subdued? Maybe, if it is an adrenaline like effect that remains in play without the barbarian having to focus on it. Otherwise rage sure is helpful, but it has a dark and nasty side that shows up when things take an unfortunate turn for the worse.

Some have told me that barbarians should take a large supply of cure potions so that they can drink then when they start getting close to negative numbers. While that may be true for barbarians, it is also true for almost every class. I think the idea of the high level barbarian leaving the fight so that he can drink down a few potions because he knows that if he hits -1 at his levels then he will be toast is a little silly and out of character. If I am dropped to -1 to -9 and my cleric buddy is behind me with a waiting spell, I think I should get the same benifit that every other combatant gets. Otherwise you get raged barbarians that are easier to hit due to lower AC and are paranoind about hitting even the least of the negative hit points. Is greater strength and some fleeting hit points really worth all of that?
JackSpades
09-25-04, 12:53 PM Of course rage has it's drawbacks. Why shouldn't it? A barbarian is a fearless warrior who charges into battle with no regard to his own well being. He's more then happy to die in combat just so long as he lives long enough to put the hurt on his foe before he goes down. Same with RL traditional barbarians. They were legendary for being completely fearless.
Malancthon
09-25-04, 05:21 PM I love the Barbarian class, but the rage isn't that great. I've never liked any of the temperary hit point abilities/spells/whatever. Always seemed more dangerous than it needed to be.

The Whirling Frenzy variant, however, totally rocks.
Hendel
09-26-04, 01:25 PM So, is everyone in agreement that when you reach -1 hps that the rage goes away?

Spells that have effect durations do not and I think that this ability is closer to an effect spell than a spell or ability that requires concentration.

If the rage goes away, then I agree with many who have told me that this is a "broken" ability and a somewhat "broken class." Wizards should look into it.
Shadowfax7
09-26-04, 01:43 PM Nothing in the description of "Rage" states that it goes away when the Barbarian goes unconscious (like when dropping to negative numbers).

If it did, the barbarian could be killed by taking non-lethal damage to -1, then going unconscious and losing rage. If the rage granted 10 hp, then you would be dead.
Darkstealth
09-26-04, 01:46 PM Rage is not used when the Barbarian is unconcious because Rage itself is an emotion. The Barbarian must feel rage for it to continue, and if indeed a character is at -1 hit points the emotions of rage for the real world are gone. Hope that made some sense. :D
Hendel
09-26-04, 02:04 PM Nowhere does it say that rage is simply emotion. If that were the case then my rogue could get real mad and gain +4 STR, +4 CON, etc. I am not really looking at what make sense in real life (because not much of D&D would). Rather, I am looking at game mechanics.

It does not say specifically that rage ends when unconscious or at -1 hp.

It does say that the rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to the new CON modifier plus three.

It also says that the barbarian can end it early.

That is the same as effect spells that the wizard or sorcerer may dismiss early, however, those effects DO NOT end early just because the mage is no longer conscious. If they did those would be concentration based spells requiring a check every time the mage decided to do something else. Wouldn't it be a pain to have to make a concentration check to cast fireball because you already have a shield spell up. Yet, in the barbarian's case many seem to think that is what kind of ability rage is.

My opinion is that rage lasts the number of rounds specified or until the barbarian wants it to end. That is what is clearly written in the rules. If there is a rules lawyer out there or a WotC staff that has some insight, please help!
Hendel
09-30-04, 12:00 AM I thought I would give this thread one last shot at the top before letting it die.

Does anybody else want to weigh in on whether or not rage ends when a character goes unconscious?

Not just to start a new tangent, but how about psionics? I think most would say that a shield spell will last its duration even if the caster goes to negative hit points (He could be revived by a party member and then he would still need that shield spell active). What about the same situation with a psion who has manifested inertial armor?

The real question is do duration based effects that do not require concentration end due to unconsciousness?
CatoTurk
09-30-04, 12:10 AM I always thought of it as an adrenoline like effect, the more constitution you have the more you whould produce. Hence how the duration comes about. I dont see how falling unconsious whould instantly wash all that adrenoline out of your system. For the most part the body will still function if your unconsions. So thats my logic (I know, no logic in D&D) why the rage effects stay until the duration ends, regardless of consiousness.
PsionicMonk
10-20-04, 04:39 AM accutly i thought the idea of a rageing werewolf was a good idea, but now that i have learned that when the rage ends you can die, just for +3 more fort and damage, it doesnt out way the fact you can die suddenly if you happen to be in bad shape in a way its a false sense of security, oh look i have 20 more hp i can make the final blow on this guy, walk up to him and get hit for 15 and then after he is dead when your rage ends if you happen to be to far for a heal or dont have any potions, splat strait to dead, do not pass go do dont collect 200gp...

i thought the idea that barbarins attack so freicely that it would make men cower and run away than face teh barbarian, anyway this is for a different tread
Naeron
10-20-04, 04:57 AM There is no explicit statement that would indicate that Rage would end if the Barbarian falls unconcious, it is an ability that is activated as a free action and has a set duration, but can be ended earlier. No mention is made of any need to concentrate to maintain the rage or that rage is a mind-affecting ability. By the rules written for Barbarian rage it would not end just because the Barbarian falls unconcious.

An assumption is made that rage is an emotion, thus if the barbarian falls unconcious it ends. The only possible support for this is that Calm Emotions can be used to end a barbarian's rage. However Calm Emotions does not actually cancel the rage, it just suppresses its effects for the duration of the spell.

However this does no more than infer that rage could be an emotion. Nothing in the rules state that it is and it is equally valid to assume that rage is based on adrenaline and so has a purely physical duration.
PsionicMonk
10-20-04, 05:17 AM After alittle more thought, part from very small befits

Rage is something that NPCs would use more than players, mainly because they are going to die anyway so why not do as much damage and force the PC's to hit it more for it to die.

As a player it pretty much seems there is no point to do it, for the extra 2-4 damage, and enough HP so when it ends you die =p

Granted the 2-4 extra fort can help, but it still doesnt outweigh the posablity of dying at the end of the rage for takeing the extra damage from the -2 AC, but later on in lvls even without rageing you can die in 1 or 2 hits from a local dragon anyway

about the only thing i can think of to make rageing an option for players is make it a class abilty or have a general rule for all players that the dying range be uped to your class level

plus maybe giveing another reason to rage is to have a "fear" effect maybe base DC10+barbarian's lvl Will save at lvl 20 with a DC30 thats one scarry Barbarian
hiryuu
10-20-04, 08:24 AM Rage doesn't end after you drop unconscious. It has a set duration - once that duration ends, the rage ends (possibly killing you if you didn't get healed while unconscious).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hendel 09-25-04, 12:49 PM	If this has already been discussed, then I am sorry to bring it up again, but could somebody post a link to that thread. My problem is with barbarians and their rage ability. My question specifically deals with reaching negative hit points and coming out of the rage. No matter what the case, if you have a barbarian with five or more levels that falls to -1 hit points and if that means that his rage is ended because he is unconscious, then he will automatically die. I know they have the buffer of extra hit points so that they won't die, but it seams as if they are furthered denied the use of the ten negative hit points that all other characters or creatures get. Is the rage actually an effect that the barbarian concentrates on? No, I don't think so. Is it an effect that should at least last the duration of the effect even if unconscious or subdued? Maybe, if it is an adrenaline like effect that remains in play without the barbarian having to focus on it. Otherwise rage sure is helpful, but it has a dark and nasty side that shows up when things take an unfortunate turn for the worse. Some have told me that barbarians should take a large supply of cure potions so that they can drink then when they start getting close to negative numbers. While that may be true for barbarians, it is also true for almost every class. I think the idea of the high level barbarian leaving the fight so that he can drink down a few potions because he knows that if he hits -1 at his levels then he will be toast is a little silly and out of character. If I am dropped to -1 to -9 and my cleric buddy is behind me with a waiting spell, I think I should get the same benifit that every other combatant gets. Otherwise you get raged barbarians that are easier to hit due to lower AC and are paranoind about hitting even the least of the negative hit points. Is greater strength and some fleeting hit points really worth all of that?
JackSpades 09-25-04, 12:53 PM	Of course rage has it's drawbacks. Why shouldn't it? A barbarian is a fearless warrior who charges into battle with no regard to his own well being. He's more then happy to die in combat just so long as he lives long enough to put the hurt on his foe before he goes down. Same with RL traditional barbarians. They were legendary for being completely fearless.
Malancthon 09-25-04, 05:21 PM	I love the Barbarian class, but the rage isn't that great. I've never liked any of the temperary hit point abilities/spells/whatever. Always seemed more dangerous than it needed to be. The Whirling Frenzy variant, however, totally rocks.
Hendel 09-26-04, 01:25 PM	So, is everyone in agreement that when you reach -1 hps that the rage goes away? Spells that have effect durations do not and I think that this ability is closer to an effect spell than a spell or ability that requires concentration. If the rage goes away, then I agree with many who have told me that this is a "broken" ability and a somewhat "broken class." Wizards should look into it.
Shadowfax7 09-26-04, 01:43 PM	Nothing in the description of "Rage" states that it goes away when the Barbarian goes unconscious (like when dropping to negative numbers). If it did, the barbarian could be killed by taking non-lethal damage to -1, then going unconscious and losing rage. If the rage granted 10 hp, then you would be dead.
Darkstealth 09-26-04, 01:46 PM	Rage is not used when the Barbarian is unconcious because Rage itself is an emotion. The Barbarian must feel rage for it to continue, and if indeed a character is at -1 hit points the emotions of rage for the real world are gone. Hope that made some sense. :D
Hendel 09-26-04, 02:04 PM	Nowhere does it say that rage is simply emotion. If that were the case then my rogue could get real mad and gain +4 STR, +4 CON, etc. I am not really looking at what make sense in real life (because not much of D&D would). Rather, I am looking at game mechanics. It does not say specifically that rage ends when unconscious or at -1 hp. It does say that the rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to the new CON modifier plus three. It also says that the barbarian can end it early. That is the same as effect spells that the wizard or sorcerer may dismiss early, however, those effects DO NOT end early just because the mage is no longer conscious. If they did those would be concentration based spells requiring a check every time the mage decided to do something else. Wouldn't it be a pain to have to make a concentration check to cast fireball because you already have a shield spell up. Yet, in the barbarian's case many seem to think that is what kind of ability rage is. My opinion is that rage lasts the number of rounds specified or until the barbarian wants it to end. That is what is clearly written in the rules. If there is a rules lawyer out there or a WotC staff that has some insight, please help!
Hendel 09-30-04, 12:00 AM	I thought I would give this thread one last shot at the top before letting it die. Does anybody else want to weigh in on whether or not rage ends when a character goes unconscious? Not just to start a new tangent, but how about psionics? I think most would say that a shield spell will last its duration even if the caster goes to negative hit points (He could be revived by a party member and then he would still need that shield spell active). What about the same situation with a psion who has manifested inertial armor? The real question is do duration based effects that do not require concentration end due to unconsciousness?
CatoTurk 09-30-04, 12:10 AM	I always thought of it as an adrenoline like effect, the more constitution you have the more you whould produce. Hence how the duration comes about. I dont see how falling unconsious whould instantly wash all that adrenoline out of your system. For the most part the body will still function if your unconsions. So thats my logic (I know, no logic in D&D) why the rage effects stay until the duration ends, regardless of consiousness.
PsionicMonk 10-20-04, 04:39 AM	accutly i thought the idea of a rageing werewolf was a good idea, but now that i have learned that when the rage ends you can die, just for +3 more fort and damage, it doesnt out way the fact you can die suddenly if you happen to be in bad shape in a way its a false sense of security, oh look i have 20 more hp i can make the final blow on this guy, walk up to him and get hit for 15 and then after he is dead when your rage ends if you happen to be to far for a heal or dont have any potions, splat strait to dead, do not pass go do dont collect 200gp... i thought the idea that barbarins attack so freicely that it would make men cower and run away than face teh barbarian, anyway this is for a different tread
Naeron 10-20-04, 04:57 AM	There is no explicit statement that would indicate that Rage would end if the Barbarian falls unconcious, it is an ability that is activated as a free action and has a set duration, but can be ended earlier. No mention is made of any need to concentrate to maintain the rage or that rage is a mind-affecting ability. By the rules written for Barbarian rage it would not end just because the Barbarian falls unconcious. An assumption is made that rage is an emotion, thus if the barbarian falls unconcious it ends. The only possible support for this is that Calm Emotions can be used to end a barbarian's rage. However Calm Emotions does not actually cancel the rage, it just suppresses its effects for the duration of the spell. However this does no more than infer that rage could be an emotion. Nothing in the rules state that it is and it is equally valid to assume that rage is based on adrenaline and so has a purely physical duration.
PsionicMonk 10-20-04, 05:17 AM	After alittle more thought, part from very small befits Rage is something that NPCs would use more than players, mainly because they are going to die anyway so why not do as much damage and force the PC's to hit it more for it to die. As a player it pretty much seems there is no point to do it, for the extra 2-4 damage, and enough HP so when it ends you die =p Granted the 2-4 extra fort can help, but it still doesnt outweigh the posablity of dying at the end of the rage for takeing the extra damage from the -2 AC, but later on in lvls even without rageing you can die in 1 or 2 hits from a local dragon anyway about the only thing i can think of to make rageing an option for players is make it a class abilty or have a general rule for all players that the dying range be uped to your class level plus maybe giveing another reason to rage is to have a "fear" effect maybe base DC10+barbarian's lvl Will save at lvl 20 with a DC30 thats one scarry Barbarian
hiryuu 10-20-04, 08:24 AM	Rage doesn't end after you drop unconscious. It has a set duration - once that duration ends, the rage ends (possibly killing you if you didn't get healed while unconscious).