Barbarian trumps Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian trumps Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
malignor
06-18-07, 12:52 PM Situation:

I'm playing a Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)7/Fighter2. So I have the class abilities of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Last game, I was in a city, attempting to charm the hostile general populace by befriending birds & squirrels (with my Ring of Animal Friendship), tumbling around in the town square, goofing off and acting generally cheerful and friendly. A mass-murdering Rogue14 lures me into an alley by mimicking the sound of a fuzzy critter being attacked, and attempts to "gank" me.

Here comes the argument.

I'm not really paying a whole lot of mind until I see the damage output (7d6 sneak attack). Ouch - alot of damage. But now I see him right? I swing my light steel shield (my weapons were peace-bound with weights and wires), miss, and then he uses Improved Feint. If this is legit, I'm now half dead in 2 rounds so I'm thinking "hang on a bloody minute!".

So I check my class abilities in the PHB, hoping to prove that Improved Feint don't do jack to me by virtue of Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Bingo.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.Notice there is NO exceptions listed in there. Sneak attacks from hidden locations simply don't work, ever. ... ... right?Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.Aha! Here's what started the confusion. Since the rogue was more than 4 levels beyond my barbarian levels, the DM thought he could sneak attack me. But IUD only refers to flanking, listing the exceptions. So these exceptions are only for the purposes of flanking! ... ... ... right?

My DM thinks that UD and IUD are both trumped by a Rogue(x+4) in all instances - sneak attacks from being hidden, by flanking, by feinting, etc.

I see the UD description and think that feints and being hidden simply don't work for delivering sneak attacks against my barbarian, no matter the rogue level. SAttacks only work on a barbarian who is denied his Dex by being restrained, or flanked by a rogue of level (x+4) or higher. This means that, in some way, Barbarians are a great anti-assassin. SA's are heavily restricted against them, and they have the damage output and hitpoints to get the upper hand in a fight. But I digress.

Who is right here?
ReverendBSB
06-18-07, 12:57 PM You are correct.
Goreg Skullcrusher
06-18-07, 01:00 PM You are immune to any and all sneak attacks that would have arisen as a result of being flatfooted, regardless of the rogue's level. Uncanny Dodge has no such stipulation.

IUD provides immunity to the second most common condition that allows a rogue sneak attacks: flanking. For this purpose and this purpose only a rogue with 4 more levels than you have barbarian levels can sneak attack you.

In this one-on-one fight the rogue won't be sneak attacking you, barring the use of feints or Telling Blow.
Omega_Grey
06-18-07, 01:04 PM Whoa whoa whoa, just because you get to keep your dex bonus to ac when you are flat-footed doesnt mean you are no longer flat-footed, it just means the attacker now has no special advantage over you.

So that being said, if he uses Improved Feint to make you flat-footed, you follow all the rules for being flat-footed, except you get to keep your Dex bonus to AC.

And Improved Uncanny Dodge only apply to flanking situations and has no bearing in your current situation (unless he has an ally that you didnt mention).

Hope that helps.
Omega_Grey
06-18-07, 01:09 PM Keep in mind that while the description of sneak attack says that they can score a sneak attack on any enemy that is denied their dex bonus to AC, and Uncanny Dodge lets you retain your bonus they can still sneak attack you.

The reasoning is that you *in normal circumstances* would have lost your dex bonus, and are thus subject to sneak attack.

Again, hope that helps.
goawayugh
06-18-07, 01:14 PM He can SA you.

Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has nothing to do with being flat-footed, therefore UD has no effect on feinting.
Fmu78
06-18-07, 01:19 PM A Passage from the FAQ...

Does uncanny dodge protect a character from losing his
Dexterity bonus to AC to a successful feint?

No. Uncanny dodge doesn’t protect you from all situations
that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC. It only lets
you retain your Dexterity bonus if “caught flat-footed or struck
by an invisible attacker.” A feint doesn’t render a target flatfooted,
it just doesn’t allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to
AC against your next melee attack made on or before your next
turn.

It would seem that you would never be surprised but if you are feinted you are out of luck.
malignor
06-18-07, 01:20 PM Keep in mind that while the description of sneak attack says that they can score a sneak attack on any enemy that is denied their dex bonus to AC, and Uncanny Dodge lets you retain your bonus they can still sneak attack you.You just confused me... didn't you just contradict yourself? :confused:

UD allows the barbarian retains his Dex bonus even when flat-footed or being attacked by an invisible attacker.

A solitary rogue who tries to SA from a hidden location is, at best, an invisible attacker attacking a flat-footed barbarian. So the barbarian retains his Dex bonus to AC.

A rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)'s SA happens "any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

No wording about flat-footedness in relation to SA. Cut & dry, the rogue needs an opponent with no dex bonus to AC (or a flanked opponent). The UD class ability means they always get the dex bonus unless actually restrained by an effect like sleeping, bound, held, grappled, etc.
Fmu78
06-18-07, 01:20 PM Sorry.
malignor
06-18-07, 01:22 PM He can SA you.

Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has nothing to do with being flat-footed, therefore UD has no effect on feinting.Now THERE's some meaty evidence. Even though I'm proven wrong in one instance, I thank you.A Passage from the FAQ...

It would seem that you would never be surprised but if you are feinted you are out of luck.And you provided backup evidence. Nice. Now I have some firm grounding to work with. Thanks! :D
malignor
06-18-07, 01:23 PM merging posts
Tectorman
06-18-07, 03:49 PM Alright, as I understand it...

IUD means that a sneak attacker must have four more rogue levels than you have barbarian levels in order to sneak attack you by virtue of flanking. That's it.

UD, as I understand it, should be going by the description in the Scout in Complete Adventurer (namely, that you are never flat-footed). I think that's what Wizards meant to say, they just didn't word it right.

This, of course, has nothing to do with being feinted because feinting denies the opponent their Dex bonus to AC. It doesn't make them flat-footed (which would thus deny the Dex bonus), it directly makes them lose their Dex bonus. UD has no say in the matter.

So if a Rogue 1 manages to successfully feint against a Barbarian 20, then the Barbarian will lose his Dex bonus and will be vulnerable to a sneak attack, all other things being equal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 06-18-07, 12:52 PM	Situation: I'm playing a Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)7/Fighter2. So I have the class abilities of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Last game, I was in a city, attempting to charm the hostile general populace by befriending birds & squirrels (with my Ring of Animal Friendship), tumbling around in the town square, goofing off and acting generally cheerful and friendly. A mass-murdering Rogue14 lures me into an alley by mimicking the sound of a fuzzy critter being attacked, and attempts to "gank" me. Here comes the argument. I'm not really paying a whole lot of mind until I see the damage output (7d6 sneak attack). Ouch - alot of damage. But now I see him right? I swing my light steel shield (my weapons were peace-bound with weights and wires), miss, and then he uses Improved Feint. If this is legit, I'm now half dead in 2 rounds so I'm thinking "hang on a bloody minute!". So I check my class abilities in the PHB, hoping to prove that Improved Feint don't do jack to me by virtue of Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge. Bingo. Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.Notice there is NO exceptions listed in there. Sneak attacks from hidden locations simply don't work, ever. ... ... right?Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.Aha! Here's what started the confusion. Since the rogue was more than 4 levels beyond my barbarian levels, the DM thought he could sneak attack me. But IUD only refers to flanking, listing the exceptions. So these exceptions are only for the purposes of flanking! ... ... ... right? My DM thinks that UD and IUD are both trumped by a Rogue(x+4) in all instances - sneak attacks from being hidden, by flanking, by feinting, etc. I see the UD description and think that feints and being hidden simply don't work for delivering sneak attacks against my barbarian, no matter the rogue level. SAttacks only work on a barbarian who is denied his Dex by being restrained, or flanked by a rogue of level (x+4) or higher. This means that, in some way, Barbarians are a great anti-assassin. SA's are heavily restricted against them, and they have the damage output and hitpoints to get the upper hand in a fight. But I digress. Who is right here?
ReverendBSB 06-18-07, 12:57 PM	You are correct.
Goreg Skullcrusher 06-18-07, 01:00 PM	You are immune to any and all sneak attacks that would have arisen as a result of being flatfooted, regardless of the rogue's level. Uncanny Dodge has no such stipulation. IUD provides immunity to the second most common condition that allows a rogue sneak attacks: flanking. For this purpose and this purpose only a rogue with 4 more levels than you have barbarian levels can sneak attack you. In this one-on-one fight the rogue won't be sneak attacking you, barring the use of feints or Telling Blow.
Omega_Grey 06-18-07, 01:04 PM	Whoa whoa whoa, just because you get to keep your dex bonus to ac when you are flat-footed doesnt mean you are no longer flat-footed, it just means the attacker now has no special advantage over you. So that being said, if he uses Improved Feint to make you flat-footed, you follow all the rules for being flat-footed, except you get to keep your Dex bonus to AC. And Improved Uncanny Dodge only apply to flanking situations and has no bearing in your current situation (unless he has an ally that you didnt mention). Hope that helps.
Omega_Grey 06-18-07, 01:09 PM	Keep in mind that while the description of sneak attack says that they can score a sneak attack on any enemy that is denied their dex bonus to AC, and Uncanny Dodge lets you retain your bonus they can still sneak attack you. The reasoning is that you in normal circumstances would have lost your dex bonus, and are thus subject to sneak attack. Again, hope that helps.
goawayugh 06-18-07, 01:14 PM	He can SA you. Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has nothing to do with being flat-footed, therefore UD has no effect on feinting.
Fmu78 06-18-07, 01:19 PM	A Passage from the FAQ... Does uncanny dodge protect a character from losing his Dexterity bonus to AC to a successful feint? No. Uncanny dodge doesn’t protect you from all situations that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC. It only lets you retain your Dexterity bonus if “caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.” A feint doesn’t render a target flatfooted, it just doesn’t allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC against your next melee attack made on or before your next turn. It would seem that you would never be surprised but if you are feinted you are out of luck.
malignor 06-18-07, 01:20 PM	Keep in mind that while the description of sneak attack says that they can score a sneak attack on any enemy that is denied their dex bonus to AC, and Uncanny Dodge lets you retain your bonus they can still sneak attack you.You just confused me... didn't you just contradict yourself? :confused: UD allows the barbarian retains his Dex bonus even when flat-footed or being attacked by an invisible attacker. A solitary rogue who tries to SA from a hidden location is, at best, an invisible attacker attacking a flat-footed barbarian. So the barbarian retains his Dex bonus to AC. A rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)'s SA happens "any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." No wording about flat-footedness in relation to SA. Cut & dry, the rogue needs an opponent with no dex bonus to AC (or a flanked opponent). The UD class ability means they always get the dex bonus unless actually restrained by an effect like sleeping, bound, held, grappled, etc.
Fmu78 06-18-07, 01:20 PM	Sorry.
malignor 06-18-07, 01:22 PM	He can SA you. Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has nothing to do with being flat-footed, therefore UD has no effect on feinting.Now THERE's some meaty evidence. Even though I'm proven wrong in one instance, I thank you.A Passage from the FAQ... It would seem that you would never be surprised but if you are feinted you are out of luck.And you provided backup evidence. Nice. Now I have some firm grounding to work with. Thanks! :D
malignor 06-18-07, 01:23 PM	merging posts
Tectorman 06-18-07, 03:49 PM	Alright, as I understand it... IUD means that a sneak attacker must have four more rogue levels than you have barbarian levels in order to sneak attack you by virtue of flanking. That's it. UD, as I understand it, should be going by the description in the Scout in Complete Adventurer (namely, that you are never flat-footed). I think that's what Wizards meant to say, they just didn't word it right. This, of course, has nothing to do with being feinted because feinting denies the opponent their Dex bonus to AC. It doesn't make them flat-footed (which would thus deny the Dex bonus), it directly makes them lose their Dex bonus. UD has no say in the matter. So if a Rogue 1 manages to successfully feint against a Barbarian 20, then the Barbarian will lose his Dex bonus and will be vulnerable to a sneak attack, all other things being equal.