Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bladegeek 03-04-06, 08:39 PM	I am starting to think that a Barbarian is too weak. While a Barbarian has a chance to do a lot of damage on a single hit its lack of feats makes it a weaker in the sense of a fighter. Its one good ability....rage...does not really make up for the lack of feats and armor. While it does have other abitities that a fighter does not they seem to be cute'sy abilites. It seems to me that the Barbarian is to the Fighter what the Sorcerer is to a Wizard. A bonus feat now and then IMO would fix the problem. Am I out in left field here?
Nephlite 03-04-06, 08:49 PM	I am starting to think that a Barbarian is too weak. It is the Sorcerer of fighting. While a Barbarian has a chance to do a lot of damage on a single hit its lack of feats makes it a weaker in the sense of a fighter. Its one good ability....rage...does not really make up for the lack of feats and armor. A bonus feat now and then IMO would fix the problem. Am I out in left field here? Armor? Mithral heay armor is meduim in regards to proficiency and other restrictions. You shouldn't be that poor to never afford it. Feats? Fighter is only worth it as a class because it has feats. Fighters can do a lot of techniques like trip, cleave, sunder, grapple, etc. Barbarians do it better in a few, but they have to specialize. They can't be good at them all. Not enough feats. Fighters are generalists: Barbarians are specialists. Tell me, what level you are basing your points? Sorcerors don't have class features that Wizards don't have so they aren't a good example for comparison.
DaMullet 03-04-06, 08:57 PM	Plus, fighters are tougher to RP. Barbarians have a catch-all phrase for every scenario: "Me smash tiny _____!!!!" Fighters need to be tacticians, Barbarians just break stuff.
Lotus Crane 03-04-06, 09:02 PM	Not at all, as far as the RAW goes, I think barbarians are quite a bit better than fighters. Barbarians have more hit points, more skill points, move faster, usually have better saves (especially against traps and/or while raging). Against certain enemies (anything that uses sneak attack), they tank much better, even though they have a lower AC than fighters, and barbarians are far less likely than fighters to be taken out of a battle by a charm/hold/dominate person spell, especially once they get Indomitable Will. While fighters do have a few more tactical options due to their feats, barbarians still do more straight-up damage, and even in tactical fighting, barbarians outshine fighters in the Karmic Strike "touch me and die" style and the Combat Brute/Shock Trooper "nothing stands in my way" style. On a 200 point scale, I rate fighters at 172 points, and barbarians at 197.
ninjarabbit 03-04-06, 09:05 PM	I dislike barbarians for the same reason that I loathe the CW samurai: it's an inflexible niche class that almost never becomes more than the stereotype. Almost every barbarian uses a two handed weapon and power attack to rage tinto battle. Granted the barbarain is very good at what he does but the barain is little more than a one trick pony who's class features could have been easily been converted into feats.
Alcalientre 03-04-06, 09:16 PM	I agree with ninjarabbit, but in a way most of the classes end up being stereotypes. Some, like fighter, are more flexible, but people always seem to roleplay them exactly the same anyway (In my experience). Sometimes I just want to make up a class based exactly on what I want to roleplay as, but I know that people in my gaming group would raise stupid objections like, "You're making it best at what it's going to be doing all of the time!" and so forth.
Rhomphaia 03-04-06, 09:26 PM	Well, for the most part, I see barbarian and fighter pretty much as equals when it comes to combat ability... Until level 5, then a barbarian MUST start acting out-of-character and start being careful and cautious in combat or else a stray blow may drop him. If that happens while he is in rage...oops, dead barbarian.
runestar 03-04-06, 09:38 PM	Saying you dislike playing a barb because of the roleplaying restrictions is like saying you stopped playing a wiz because you dislike crochety old men in long flowing robes and pointy hats. :rolleyes: That is more an issue of the player's inability to adapt rather than an inherent liability of the class. ;)
Edwind 03-04-06, 09:45 PM	I disagree with rabbit and Alcalientre, Barbarians airnt always just twohanded weapon wielders. One could take any of the animal totems presented in Unearthed Arcana making them totally different. Like the Bear Totem, in the first three levels you gain three feats which improve your overall grapple. Not much good a Great Clubs going to do you when you grapple most of the time. And of course it is down to the personally the Player wishes to give the Barb. Instead of the smash everything Barb he's the wildman with foxes cunning, the tigers speed, and the bears power. He doesn't have to weild a two handed weapon when it totally doesn't match the flavor of how you'd want the Barb to be played out. But moving on to the actual question. I find Barbarians are the least underpowered as far as the base classes go. I'd put my money on the Hexblade or something along those lines. Of course I have never played a Hexblade before so my opinion there just doesn't really matter. The abilities the Barb gets are all quite reasonable at best. Instead of the fully armored gaint wading into combat you have the quick powerful basher who runs around the encounter striking from all sides and quickly gets away. Or infact if the party lacks a melee fighter, he can be party tank. Feats from CW increase the Barbs potential with things like extend rage or Intimidating rage making it so you could rage longer and do other things while bashing things.
Bladegeek 03-05-06, 10:30 AM	I dislike barbarians for the same reason that I loathe the CW samurai: it's an inflexible niche class that almost never becomes more than the stereotype. Almost every barbarian uses a two handed weapon and power attack to rage tinto battle. Granted the barbarain is very good at what he does but the barain is little more than a one trick pony who's class features could have been easily been converted into feats. While it is up to the player to build a niche or the personality of the PC.....I am interested in the raw numbers of the class that makes the class what it is. Again I think that the fighter has way more flexibility for the player because of the large number of feats that can be really helpful. With a Barbarian you are stuck with some abilities that are not as good as choosing your own feats....rage being the exception. Don't get me wrong a Barbarian is my favorite PC to play. I am not bashing the class I am wondering if it needs to be fixed.
supernerd8916 03-05-06, 11:01 AM	DR, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, all of these things can help any player. Whenever you think of a barbarian you think of that roaring psychopath in the middle of melee, but sometimes you need abilities to help when you arent in the crosshairs af a 250 pound half-orc, thus, trap sense. If you try to play a barbarian, ill assume your strength is higher than your dex or int. Specialize in feats like cleave and you should be a match for any fighter of your level.
system breaker 03-05-06, 05:07 PM	As with almost all of these sorts of threads, it depends on your DM. If your DM is the type who just likes to throw mindless melee combats at you in nice open environment, the Barbarians extra damage and HP will make them better than many other classes. If your DM actually puts you against monsters that use their stated out intelligence properly (ambushes, using terrain to advantage and pre-buffing), the total lack of versatility of the Barbarian is a major problem. There lack of versatility is such a problem against intelligent, versatile foes that in these situations I (and many others) consider them to be hands down the weakest core class. Personally, I won't play with the first sort of DM, so in my book the Barbarian is at an enormous loss in the class power rankings.
Silverthumb128 03-05-06, 05:49 PM	That is more an issue of the player's inability to adapt rather than an inherent liability of the class. ;) Quoted for emphasis. I never thought I'd see the day where someone thought Barbarian was a weak class. Highest HD, Highest BAB, proficiency with all non-exotic weapons, medium armor proficiency, boosted speed at first level, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, some very useful skills(with good skillpoints, to match), and Rage speaks for itself. But, looking back, you're right, Rage is its only good ability. Yes, totally underpowered. :rolleyes:
Lotus Crane 03-05-06, 05:59 PM	If your DM actually puts you against monsters that use their stated out intelligence properly (ambushes, using terrain to advantage and pre-buffing), the total lack of versatility of the Barbarian is a major problem. There lack of versatility is such a problem against intelligent, versatile foes that in these situations I (and many others) consider them to be hands down the weakest core class. Uh, against "intelligent, versatile foes," the barbarian is still better than the fighter, because barbarians 1) have more skill points and Listen as a class skill, 2) move faster, 3) have Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense, 4) have better Will saves, and eventually get Indomitable Will. You can ambush, sneak attack, and/or charm/hold/dominate person a fighter, but you can't do that to a barbarian.
Outh 03-05-06, 07:12 PM	You can't? Guess Barbarians has an extra feat in your world. Try thinking ambush, then disregard your idea of some skinny fellow hiding in a bush using sneakattack and use the full extent of your mind to imagine a full scale assult/ambush where everything isn't "I charge I WIN!"
CryoSilver 03-05-06, 07:14 PM	I found that barbarians, when taken out of context and with new fluff, make excellent NPCs. A favorite theme: if you have ever read the "Deathstalker" series by Simon Green, you'l lrecall the "boost." Basically, what it is, is this genetic modification of stimulants and adrenaline that could be dumped into the bloodstream to briefly make the user super fast and strong for a very short period of time, at a cost to their body afterward. It also impaired the user's judgement. Mechanically, it's very similar to rage, but the description is very different. Uncanny Dodge is just a perception thing, and if you don't get tunnel vision from an adrenaline rush, you become hyper-aware. Swap out some skills and whatnot, and you end up with this sort of hybrid super-soldier relying on inherent traits of his body to temporarily boost his performance. In such a case, I'd drop the alignment requirement, but again, that's just fluff.
Talen Lee 03-05-06, 07:20 PM	If you can't reflavour the barbarian within the context of the mechanics presented it's not the fault of class. The barbarian is perfectly on keel for power, and the fighter lags behind him, with the ranger being a slightly more equal trade until the high levels. The Barbarian has a number of abilities which have an effect. You, the player, get to choose how those effects are expressed. That is, your flavour is independent of the class mechanics. Basically, this is just another silly bit of whining. OP, are you playing a barbarian right now, or looking to play one soon?
Nephlite 03-05-06, 07:30 PM	You can't? Guess Barbarians has an extra feat in your world. Try thinking ambush, then disregard your idea of some skinny fellow hiding in a bush using sneakattack and use the full extent of your mind to imagine a full scale assult/ambush where everything isn't "I charge I WIN!" Ambush as in surprise attack/round? Barb doesn't lose dex; Fighter does. Even if fighter has no dex; that just means evnmiescan trip him easily since Touch AC is bad for Fighter than. So intelligent enemies who trip foes will love fighters, but not barbs harder to hit and all.
Lotus Crane 03-05-06, 07:32 PM	Indeed, flavor does not equal mechanics. I mean, look at the Cleave feat. Flavor-wise, "cleaving" only really applies to slashing weapons, but mechanically, you can use Cleave with any type of melee weapon. It takes writers and playtesters months to make balanced mechanics, but any player or DM can write their own perfectly valid flavor in just a few seconds. "Barbarian" is just a name; the mechanics can be used for almost anything. And devoid of any flavor or roleplaying issues, by the RAW, barbarians are superior to fighters in most situations (the typical 2-level fighter dip notwithstanding).
Bandit_Raist 03-05-06, 07:41 PM	Well in my latest campaign the world is divided by religeon, The god worshiping Clerics and the Elemental Worshiping Shamans. The Paladin is the guardian of the clerics, the sword of the gods. The Barbs (barbarians) are the Element's wrath. In my campaign being a Barb (Barbarian) is very prestigeous, including tests of worth, Str., Dex., and craftiness. Pretty much from what I have seen, Is that players begin to have a diffrent outlook on the class when it becomes super special. Oh and I have never seen an underpowered Barbarian, unless the player is a "Hulk, smash" guy. Plus you could spice things, just because they can't read as a class ability does not meant that they are stupid. Example: Native American were considered "barbarians", but if I recall Native American one a fair share of their own battles, including a certain battle called "Little Bighorn". But if that is D&D enough, have your barbarian player watch "Conan: The Barbarian". Plenty of ideas there.
Outh 03-05-06, 07:43 PM	Ambush as in surprise attack/round? Barb doesn't lose dex; Fighter does. Even if fighter has no dex; that just means evnmiescan trip him easily since Touch AC is bad for Fighter than. So intelligent enemies who trip foes will love fighters, but not barbs harder to hit and all. Cause we all know an ambush just lasts one round. Do me a favour and use your imagination. It's not always monsters hidden in bushes jumping out although it certainlly seem thats what you've been experiencing, sounds like fun sessions :).
ShroudedEyes 03-05-06, 07:59 PM	The main problem with your argument is I don't see why a barbarian's player can't use tactics. Rage doesn't even force you to attack an enemy in the round if you don't want, and Rage's boost to strength makes some things like trips and grapples easier. Plus, with the extra 10 ft of movement you can get around the battlefield easier.
TheWinterBard 03-05-06, 08:18 PM	I used the mechanics once (reworked the flavor totally) to just make a really, really bad-tempered character who fought readily and tended to go into a furious rage when she did. That's just from the quipping about limited roleplaying stance. Mechanically... Works fine, not disadvantaged, IMO. It's just a different style; work with it and it's fun. Really, you can use any weapon you want- I've played with a rapier before (that was fun!). So... yeh. They're not my area of expertise, but I don't think they're weak.
Nephlite 03-05-06, 08:55 PM	Cause we all know an ambush just lasts one round. Do me a favour and use your imagination. It's not always monsters hidden in bushes jumping out although it certainlly seem thats what you've been experiencing, sounds like fun sessions :). Explain your little scenerio than. I tried to guess yours, but you won't say. Also, surprise/ambush rounds don't go past 1 round. After 1st round everyone has initiative and no longer flat foot. At that point: where is surprise? Only ones who can stay hidden are people with good hide skills: so we are back to rogues which you denied the case. And soldiers hidden in bushes and come out was more what I was saying. Monsters don't go tripping. Unless very intelligent and than they are just creatures not monsters.
Grimslade 03-05-06, 09:01 PM	Ambushs do only last a round. Once they know you are there its not much of an ambush any more. Also if things go bad the Barb doesnt need to out run the enemy just the Fullplate wearers.
Silverthumb128 03-06-06, 01:18 AM	Since the seconday topic is now Surprise-Round Tactics, (Regardless of species/intelligence. You'll recall even wolves get a bonus Trip?) then survivability of quick and accurate attacks is the deciding point. In the surprise round, the Barbarian won't lose Dex to AC, whereas the Fighter would. This means that in the case that both were struck, only the Fighter, even with a Dexterity bonus of 0, is susceptible to Sneak Attacks. That's a big damage bonus. Not only do Barbarians have more HP and Damage Reduction, they are far less likely to become the fated target of a Rogue's main offense. And the Rogue would still have to beat the Barbarian's Listen check to begin with, which isn't guaranteed. If the Barbarian were to hear ambushers and succeed at Initiative, you can warn your party and Rage before the enemies have their crossbows loaded. This is a posibility for any class, but given that Barbarians have Listen as a class-skill and Fighters don't, that's just a bigger gap to cross for the ambushers. Fighters just aren't able to make it any harder than beating armor class.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-06-06, 05:14 AM	Technically, any class that does have 9 levels of psellcasting will eclipse any class that does not by high end play. Combo of not balancing high level spells properly, and not having high level feats be strong enough.
Outh 03-06-06, 09:54 AM	Explain your little scenerio than. I tried to guess yours, but you won't say. Also, surprise/ambush rounds don't go past 1 round. After 1st round everyone has initiative and no longer flat foot. At that point: where is surprise? An ambush is an ambush, you have one round were your suprised. That one round is not the whole ambush now is it? The whole fight is. Whatever happens next depends on the intellligence of the creatures involved - everything from traps to location. If say a mind flayer had planned one it would be a lot more complicated than if a Goblin planned it. A well planned ambush usually leaves very little room for anyone to survive. I think barbarians are stronger, especially with levels in frenzied beserker. The style doesn't really suit me though and without a proper group setup the classic barbarian is going to go down quite a few times whereas a tanking warrior with fullplate + a towershield would most likely be able to stay up longer (Please don't bring in Mithril fullplates, costs 9000g+1500g for one, unless you craft it yourself. Which means a warrior can have a +3 armor or a +2 armor and still be better off). I just reacted to how a few seems to think it's: *blaeeeergh* *hack and slash* *Victory!* Doesn't sound like a good playing experience to me.
Fuzzy_Logic 03-06-06, 10:04 AM	barbarian and fighter: two great tastes that taste great together! if you think fighter is better than barbrian, take 2 fighter levels for the feats. or 4 for weapon spec. I'll guarantee you that the barbairan /fighte ris better than the pure ifhgter almost every time. 1 barbarian levle gets your Rage AND fast movement, two gets you uncanny dodge. that's good stuff, better than any one or tow fighter bonus feats.
Dragonteuthis 03-06-06, 10:12 AM	An ambush is an ambush, you have one round were your suprised. That one round is not the whole ambush now is it? I believe Nephlie was defining "ambush" as the surprise round in the point he was making. You seem to be talking about something else entirely.
Outh 03-06-06, 10:56 AM	Actually, he was responding to my sarcastic remark.
Bladegeek 03-06-06, 02:12 PM	If you can't reflavour the barbarian within the context of the mechanics presented it's not the fault of class. The barbarian is perfectly on keel for power, and the fighter lags behind him, with the ranger being a slightly more equal trade until the high levels. The Barbarian has a number of abilities which have an effect. You, the player, get to choose how those effects are expressed. That is, your flavour is independent of the class mechanics. Basically, this is just another silly bit of whining. OP, are you playing a barbarian right now, or looking to play one soon? Whining? Not hardly. I am playing a Barbarian right now. I like playing them. However if you take a look at the post I started I asked a question. How you relate that to a whine is beyond me. This is a good debate, nothing more, nothing less.
Dench 03-06-06, 02:20 PM	Barbarian: Power and Meat Wall. Fighter: Pain in the ass for the enemy and Tactician.
Lotus Crane 03-06-06, 02:23 PM	Barbarian: Power and Meat Wall. Fighter: Pain in the ass for the enemy and Tactician. Barbarian: Both. Fighter: Neither. :P
Dench 03-06-06, 02:59 PM	Barbarian: Both. Fighter: Neither. :P Hey, disarming an opponent, tripping him while you beat all their surrounding minions with a Whirlwind attack it's a pain in the ass... at least it is for me and my NPC's ._.
Cadfan 03-06-06, 05:07 PM	Barbarians aren't actually supposed to be completely equal to a fighter in straight up combat. That's why they have skill points, better class skills, and non-straight up combat class abilities, like trap sense. The fact that they come out so close to fighter, if not equal to fighter, is often used as evidence that fighters are underpowered. That being said, they do pretty well. Their damage output is equal to a fighters, if not better when raging. Between DR, high hitpoints, and a high strength, they can fake most of the feats fighters can get in core materials. Bull Rush? A fighter might have improved bull rush, getting a +4 bonus and avoiding an attack of opportunity. A barbarian can just rage, get a bonus of nearly +4 to his strength, then accept the attack of opportunity and reduce the damage by whatever his current DR happens to be. I think they're pretty even when you look at the whole class, not just its ability to pound opponents in the head with a greatsword. That's not all a character should be able to do.
supernerd8916 03-06-06, 05:18 PM	I like the barbarian, however it does seem to me that most classes are indeed becoming more powerful as the 4.0 version looms close (Hopefully :D ). I think it needs a slight readjustment, but that is only because everything else is as well.
Nephlite 03-06-06, 05:24 PM	An ambush is an ambush, you have one round were your suprised. That one round is not the whole ambush now is it? The whole fight is. Whatever happens next depends on the intellligence of the creatures involved - everything from traps to location. If say a mind flayer had planned one it would be a lot more complicated than if a Goblin planned it. A well planned ambush usually leaves very little room for anyone to survive. Traps: Barbs are still better: Trap Sense protects them. Now by Ambush you mean: surprise and tricks like traps? Higher ground adds +1 hit, but that is a trick not ambush. But yeah, I see ambush as seperate as tricks. Though they do go well together.