Barbarian vrs Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian vrs Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramacass
11-02-04, 02:00 AM I'm just about to start a game and am deciding bettween a fighter or a barbarian. I just read a thread comparing a rouge and a fighter but I think it's much more to the point to compare two classes with similar functions in a party.
As I look at both options the only reason I can see for picking the fighter is quite frankly role play reasons, fair enough, after all it is a role-playing game, but shouldn't there be a functional based insentive for playing a fighter, or rather more of a functional based insentive to play a fighter.
Let's look at what the barbarian gets at first leval.
Rage: Quite frankly better that any feat on offer.

Fast movement: this is huge. It gives you a much better chance of closing and striking first.

Extra hit points: nice

Extra skill points and nifty skills like handle animal and listen

illiteracy: really how big of a draw back is this, especially when 2 skill points make it go away

A fighter at first leval gets
1 extra feat

heavy armour proficency

tower sheild proficency

Does this really stack up, especially when a fighter has to quite frankly "waste" feats on "doge" (a +1 to AC against 1 opponent not even 100% of the time) and the like for feat chains.

You also have to look at what this ends up looking like on paper

I intend to play a human so my first leval barbarian will have all of the above barbarian advantages+ most likely "power attack" and "cleave" and weilding a great Axe

While a first leval figheter will be wearing the same armour as my barbarian
possibly with a tower sheild (but not without giving up a big ol' two handed weapon) and with "power attack" "cleave" and one other feat. Can anyone suggest a feat that would make up for two extra hit points, eight extra skill points, rage, and fast movement. If you can I'd like to hear it.

also can anyone come up with some other, not abstact, but real leval by leval possibilities that demonstrate any statistical reason to play a fighter
tate
11-02-04, 02:37 AM Personally I never play straight up fighter or barbarian. I prefer to multiclass for both game play and role play reasons. Since I have not played a barbarian in a long time, I will use a friend's character as an example. He is a half orc Bbn so he is feat starved, which hurts at low levels not having cleave is a pain, and later at high levels but not as much. He utilises "fast movement" to a great advantage in combat (helps the rogue flank easy) but its a tradeoff with armor. Combine his light armor with raging armor penalties and he needs those extra hp to have any chance of staying conscious in a a non one-on-one fight (in which case he wins in one round). So in summary, the barbarian class is obviously a great damage dealer, but is light armored. This armor class deficiency is offset slightly by having extra HP, but without the feats to get the good "mobility" feats such as spring attack, they do not have the staying power in a long term slug-fest. Compare this to the fighter who, due to an innordinte number of feats, can specialize to any number of combat situations. There are many roads to take, archer or spiked chain for instance, that I wont go into (check the optimization boards, they do a good job listing and explaining a lot of them). They are not as "flavorful" because they have no built in role, but they can also be seen as the most flavorful because they can take on almost any role. It depends on your style really. Meat shields are barbarians, everything else is a fighter seems to be the common view but I dont know if I buy into that theory. It works though.

In terms of your character, I think barbarian with 2 or 4 fighter levels thrown in would be an "optimized" character with plenty of role play left to play with. The fighter levels cut the growth of your barbarian class abilities, but they taper off in terms of usefullness I think. If you have a 10th level human character, Bbn6/Ftr4 you would have 8 feats to use. Quick thinking gets me the feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Crit, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, power attack, cleave (but sadly no great cleave); as well as improved uncanny dodge, fast movement, and two rages per day. Just my quick, and definatly not perfect, build that is designed to negate the main weakness of the Barbarian class- low AC- by taking advantage of feats that a Barbarian would not be able to "afford" realistically if he was a straight barbarian. Long post, sorry, hope you get what I am trying to say, and sorry for not really answering your questions in a direct way.
Zelphi
11-02-04, 08:31 AM Convince me that Fighters are actually bad.

Read it all, all of it - go on, its about 30 pages and what...

then when you've done that, remember to use the search function. Where's that Albino Sheep link?
Crazy Runner Guy
11-02-04, 08:55 AM remember to use the search function.
This one's even on the front page.Fighter or Barbarian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=328564)
Top of second page.
The #1 Reason Fighters are Underpowred (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=329439)
Here's Szatany's Ultimate Fighter Ultimate Fighter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169285)
Simple little fighter fix: ONLY LOOK AT IF YOU BELIVE THE FIGHTER IS BROKEN (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=327555)
This one's on page 12, but it's still there.
Convince me that Core 3.5 Fighters are actually bad (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305417)

Enjoy.

crg
Gutzu
11-02-04, 09:37 AM Ok I play both Barb and Fighter it all depends on what you wanna do. Plus if you play a human fighter you get three feats at level one, plus the whole extra feats as you level. Plus you get the whole weapon specialization feats that no other class can get. Granted the fast movement and Rage are good but you really can't tank out a Barb, well not as well as a Fighter anyway. But the Rage ability come in handy you want to finish off the fight quickly. But at lower levels you can only use the rage one per day. I would say at lower levels the Fighter would be the better choice, but as levels progress they pretty much become an even match. So it's basically player preference.
Naeron
11-02-04, 09:58 AM The comparison is not as disparate as you think at low-mid level.

Rage - has its disadvantages at low level, if you consider that D&D is supposed to run on at least 3 encounters a day the barbarian will be 8th before they can rage in every encounter. -2 to AC is not nice at low level when the +4 CON may only be giving you 8 extra HP and Rage can expire if the encounter last longer than usual (not a common occurrence but it does happen).

Fast movement is a nice benefit, I'll not dispute that.

Extra Hit Points - Not a big deal, a Barbarian has 2 more HP than a fighter at first level and an average of 1 more HP per level after that. Its not a big difference, even though it might be enough to save the Barbarians life occasionally.

Extra Skill Points - While a fighter could do with more skill points they can get by without them.

As for what the fighter gets heavy armour proficency can be a big thing if you don't have high stats. A DEX 13 Fighter can get into AC 19 from armour and dex alone. The raging DEX 13 Barbarian is AC 14. At low level that can make a huge difference (a +3 melee opponent hits the fighter one time in 4 but hits the barbarian half of the time, so the Barbarian takes twice as much damage in an average combat).

The bonus feats (2 by the time you are second) can make a big difference. While the power of many feats doesn't scale well at low level they can make a huge difference. Consider the Human Fighter with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. That is a 1st level character than can attack twice a round into combat and do it reasonably well.

And while some of the feats in the chains are not that powerful others are. You cite Dodge, what if the fighter is only facing a single opponent? And Spring Attack can be a very powerful tactic. With so many Creatures with superior reach the ability to run up to them without being flattened by a trip or grapple is of immense tactical advantage.

Don't dismiss the low level fighter, the general consensus is that at low level the fighter holds his own against the other combat classes, it is at high level that they lose out.
CptCarnage
11-02-04, 02:21 PM The fighter can be godly with the ultimate feats book, but I think if I were you I would choose 2 lvls of fighter and the rest to barb. (simple, short, oppinion).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 11-02-04, 02:00 AM	I'm just about to start a game and am deciding bettween a fighter or a barbarian. I just read a thread comparing a rouge and a fighter but I think it's much more to the point to compare two classes with similar functions in a party. As I look at both options the only reason I can see for picking the fighter is quite frankly role play reasons, fair enough, after all it is a role-playing game, but shouldn't there be a functional based insentive for playing a fighter, or rather more of a functional based insentive to play a fighter. Let's look at what the barbarian gets at first leval. Rage: Quite frankly better that any feat on offer. Fast movement: this is huge. It gives you a much better chance of closing and striking first. Extra hit points: nice Extra skill points and nifty skills like handle animal and listen illiteracy: really how big of a draw back is this, especially when 2 skill points make it go away A fighter at first leval gets 1 extra feat heavy armour proficency tower sheild proficency Does this really stack up, especially when a fighter has to quite frankly "waste" feats on "doge" (a +1 to AC against 1 opponent not even 100% of the time) and the like for feat chains. You also have to look at what this ends up looking like on paper I intend to play a human so my first leval barbarian will have all of the above barbarian advantages+ most likely "power attack" and "cleave" and weilding a great Axe While a first leval figheter will be wearing the same armour as my barbarian possibly with a tower sheild (but not without giving up a big ol' two handed weapon) and with "power attack" "cleave" and one other feat. Can anyone suggest a feat that would make up for two extra hit points, eight extra skill points, rage, and fast movement. If you can I'd like to hear it. also can anyone come up with some other, not abstact, but real leval by leval possibilities that demonstrate any statistical reason to play a fighter
tate 11-02-04, 02:37 AM	Personally I never play straight up fighter or barbarian. I prefer to multiclass for both game play and role play reasons. Since I have not played a barbarian in a long time, I will use a friend's character as an example. He is a half orc Bbn so he is feat starved, which hurts at low levels not having cleave is a pain, and later at high levels but not as much. He utilises "fast movement" to a great advantage in combat (helps the rogue flank easy) but its a tradeoff with armor. Combine his light armor with raging armor penalties and he needs those extra hp to have any chance of staying conscious in a a non one-on-one fight (in which case he wins in one round). So in summary, the barbarian class is obviously a great damage dealer, but is light armored. This armor class deficiency is offset slightly by having extra HP, but without the feats to get the good "mobility" feats such as spring attack, they do not have the staying power in a long term slug-fest. Compare this to the fighter who, due to an innordinte number of feats, can specialize to any number of combat situations. There are many roads to take, archer or spiked chain for instance, that I wont go into (check the optimization boards, they do a good job listing and explaining a lot of them). They are not as "flavorful" because they have no built in role, but they can also be seen as the most flavorful because they can take on almost any role. It depends on your style really. Meat shields are barbarians, everything else is a fighter seems to be the common view but I dont know if I buy into that theory. It works though. In terms of your character, I think barbarian with 2 or 4 fighter levels thrown in would be an "optimized" character with plenty of role play left to play with. The fighter levels cut the growth of your barbarian class abilities, but they taper off in terms of usefullness I think. If you have a 10th level human character, Bbn6/Ftr4 you would have 8 feats to use. Quick thinking gets me the feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Crit, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, power attack, cleave (but sadly no great cleave); as well as improved uncanny dodge, fast movement, and two rages per day. Just my quick, and definatly not perfect, build that is designed to negate the main weakness of the Barbarian class- low AC- by taking advantage of feats that a Barbarian would not be able to "afford" realistically if he was a straight barbarian. Long post, sorry, hope you get what I am trying to say, and sorry for not really answering your questions in a direct way.
Zelphi 11-02-04, 08:31 AM	Convince me that Fighters are actually bad. Read it all, all of it - go on, its about 30 pages and what... then when you've done that, remember to use the search function. Where's that Albino Sheep link?
Crazy Runner Guy 11-02-04, 08:55 AM	remember to use the search function. This one's even on the front page.Fighter or Barbarian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=328564) Top of second page. The #1 Reason Fighters are Underpowred (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=329439) Here's Szatany's Ultimate Fighter Ultimate Fighter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169285) Simple little fighter fix: ONLY LOOK AT IF YOU BELIVE THE FIGHTER IS BROKEN (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=327555) This one's on page 12, but it's still there. Convince me that Core 3.5 Fighters are actually bad (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305417) Enjoy. crg
Gutzu 11-02-04, 09:37 AM	Ok I play both Barb and Fighter it all depends on what you wanna do. Plus if you play a human fighter you get three feats at level one, plus the whole extra feats as you level. Plus you get the whole weapon specialization feats that no other class can get. Granted the fast movement and Rage are good but you really can't tank out a Barb, well not as well as a Fighter anyway. But the Rage ability come in handy you want to finish off the fight quickly. But at lower levels you can only use the rage one per day. I would say at lower levels the Fighter would be the better choice, but as levels progress they pretty much become an even match. So it's basically player preference.
Naeron 11-02-04, 09:58 AM	The comparison is not as disparate as you think at low-mid level. Rage - has its disadvantages at low level, if you consider that D&D is supposed to run on at least 3 encounters a day the barbarian will be 8th before they can rage in every encounter. -2 to AC is not nice at low level when the +4 CON may only be giving you 8 extra HP and Rage can expire if the encounter last longer than usual (not a common occurrence but it does happen). Fast movement is a nice benefit, I'll not dispute that. Extra Hit Points - Not a big deal, a Barbarian has 2 more HP than a fighter at first level and an average of 1 more HP per level after that. Its not a big difference, even though it might be enough to save the Barbarians life occasionally. Extra Skill Points - While a fighter could do with more skill points they can get by without them. As for what the fighter gets heavy armour proficency can be a big thing if you don't have high stats. A DEX 13 Fighter can get into AC 19 from armour and dex alone. The raging DEX 13 Barbarian is AC 14. At low level that can make a huge difference (a +3 melee opponent hits the fighter one time in 4 but hits the barbarian half of the time, so the Barbarian takes twice as much damage in an average combat). The bonus feats (2 by the time you are second) can make a big difference. While the power of many feats doesn't scale well at low level they can make a huge difference. Consider the Human Fighter with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. That is a 1st level character than can attack twice a round into combat and do it reasonably well. And while some of the feats in the chains are not that powerful others are. You cite Dodge, what if the fighter is only facing a single opponent? And Spring Attack can be a very powerful tactic. With so many Creatures with superior reach the ability to run up to them without being flattened by a trip or grapple is of immense tactical advantage. Don't dismiss the low level fighter, the general consensus is that at low level the fighter holds his own against the other combat classes, it is at high level that they lose out.
CptCarnage 11-02-04, 02:21 PM	The fighter can be godly with the ultimate feats book, but I think if I were you I would choose 2 lvls of fighter and the rest to barb. (simple, short, oppinion).