Barbarian.. is Half Dragon worth..? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian.. is Half Dragon worth..? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TrinityPower
05-14-06, 03:29 PM Is the +3 LA on a Half Dragon worth is when playing a Barbarian or other fighter-type class? The 3 lvl hit seems perhaps a bit too steep to gain the strength, specially for a Barb and his special ability progress...
Surreal
05-14-06, 04:22 PM Not at low levels as the lack of HD is a serious weakness. At mid-high levels it's a lot better. Whether or not it's "worth it" is dependant on what you want your character to do. Wings are nice though (if you're large+)
Xaean
05-14-06, 07:15 PM Why not take a sorcerer level and make him a dragon disciple. Of course it takes some time to become a half dragon, but I always find it somehow strange if the half dragon has about a third of the HP his human companion has.
Yue Ryong
05-14-06, 07:33 PM Just take 'Magical Training' from PGtF and use that to meet the prerequisites dor Dragon Disciple. You save a level that way.
Xaean
05-14-06, 07:51 PM Possible - but have you ever heard of barbarians in Halruaa? - The rules would allow it, but it wouldn't make that much sense storywise. His family could have left Halruaa when he was a child however. His parents could have died shortly afterward which forced him into the life of a barbarian. Possible but still a bit farfetched. Maybe your DM might even allow you to take this feat, if you're not from the correct region.
Lord Ian Stark
05-14-06, 09:23 PM Is the +3 LA on a Half Dragon worth is when playing a Barbarian or other fighter-type class? The 3 lvl hit seems perhaps a bit too steep to gain the strength, specially for a Barb and his special ability progress...

The template adds more than just a STR boost. Whether it's all worth a +3 LA or not for a medium sized creature is a different story.

The Half-dragon is better for a fighter-type class than for a spellcasting IMO.
Vaelan
05-14-06, 10:56 PM No, it isn't.

The template's benefits do not make up for the loss of hitpoints nor do they make up for the delayed BAB and Rage improvements.
HalfMunchkin
05-14-06, 11:27 PM Just take 'Magical Training' from PGtF and use that to meet the prerequisites dor Dragon Disciple. You save a level that way.
That feat allows you to prepare and cast the cantrips as a Wizard and DD requires the ability to cast spells without preparation. It won't work. My DM pointed that out when I tried to do it.
JulesCARV
05-14-06, 11:54 PM I think Magical Training allows you to choose between wizard training and sorcerer training.

This also might not work, but if the Halruaa issue bothers you, maybe you could take one of the Complete Arcane feats of this type (Communicator, Insightful, Necropolis Born, Night Haunt, Soul of the North, Spell Hand). The catch is, although spells are cast as a level 1 sorcerer, they're spell-like abilities.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork
05-15-06, 02:11 AM What does a player half-dragon normaly get???
I do not have a copy of the MM on hand so only the SRD can clue me in.
Do they have a favored class?

Heres what I know.

Half-Dragon
+8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 cha, +4 natural armor, breath weapon, natural attacks, darkvision, immunities to a element, sleep, and paralysis effects.
Plus you are considered a dragon. All for +3 ECL.

Dragon Disciple
A class that takes ten levels to complete.
good/average BAB, good fort and will saves, 2 skills, d12 HD.
Most of the class bonuses are spent on slowly gaining the bonuses of a half dragon. Bonus spells and wings.

Which to choose?
Dragon Disciple gives me wings, and makes me spend 10 of my class levels on it. Half-Dragon makes all leveling up slower.
Dragon Disciple's bonus spells are a joke, 1 bonus spell learned vs just gaining a level in something that gives you the new spells per day and enhnaces your caster level...

For epic playing a Dragon Disciple whould be handy.
For 1~20 levels I whould go with a half-dragon.
You well level up slower but when eveyone hits lv20, you well have 17 class levels in what ever you wanted. VS spending ten levels just to become a half-dragon, leaving you with 10 class levels in something decent.

Setting up a half dragon.
Starting off take Dragon Wings(Races of the Dragon) as your 1st level feat. This gives you a set of wings no matter your size, these wings cannot fly you around but they do let you glide and give a bonus to jumping.
If the MM is the same as the released SRD then half-dragon is added to what ever your base race has. So you can do a human and have one more feat left.
Take Dragons Breath and you have unlimited breath attacks per day.
For levels 1~3 train up in Half-Dragon Paragon(Unearthed Arcane)(exellent BAB, d12 HD, 6 skills, good fort, will saves)The class levels stack with sorcerer magic, and you gain +1 to your natural armor. You do get a change in your breath attack to 3/day, but the feat above is better.
Next, train up what ever. I like to take a level in fighter then some sorcerer levels intill I can cast level 3 spells. Then its Eldritch Knight from then on out.
You have the stats and decent enough BAB for melee, plus spells for ranged attacks.

Other things that work well with this setup.
Improved Dragon Wings: Now you can fly by using your wings.
Versatile Spellcaster: Put those cantrips to use...
Entangling Exhalation: Light them up.
Clinging Breath: It should be called Napalm Breath.
Power Attack: Do you feel lucky?
Leap Attack: Deal more with a charge.
Improved Sunder: Just for the next feat, or sundering weapons that you wont use.
Combat Brute: Deal more after the round you charged.
Gold Half-Dragon + "eveyone cast fireball on me" = A meleer that eveyone likes to run from.

Its also possible if you combo high jump ranks, wings, Expeditious Retreat, and Boots of Striding and Springing
(boots speed does not stack, but +10ft is only +4 to jumps and the boots say "She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks." So the boots must grant a +5 bonus on top of the +4 for faster speed)
And you chould jump over a line of fighters and take out the spell caster of their party. Its also as good as tumble since you do not provoke AOOs. you just need the room to do this so don't expected it to happen in 99.8% of the fights you are in, it sounds awsome atleast.

If you want a melee capable spellcaster then Half-Dragon is the way to go.
But its not really a fighter/barbarin only, or sorcerer only class, mix it up and use your breath attack alot.

Edit: Oops, forgot the Dragon Breath feat has a prerequisite that includes 6HD. No matter, 1/day breath attack intill you have all three levels of Half-Dragon Paragon then its 3/day till you have 6HD and your next feat pops up.
gorfnad the shiznit
05-15-06, 02:16 AM That feat allows you to prepare and cast the cantrips as a Wizard and DD requires the ability to cast spells without preparation. It won't work. My DM pointed that out when I tried to do it.

Magical Training
Type: Regional

You come from a land where cantrips are taught to all who have the aptitude to learn magic. Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two.

Prerequisite: Int 10 or Cha 10, elf (Evereska or Evermeet) or human (Halruaa or Nimbral).
Benefit: You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard (your choice, so long as you have a score of at least 10 in the ability that controls the spellcasting for that class). You must make this decision when you first take the feat. Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.
If you choose to cast spells as a sorcerer, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Cha modifier. You know two 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list.
If you choose to cast spells as a wizard, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Int modifier. You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.
Special: If you already have levels in sorcerer or wizard, increase the number of 0-level spells you can cast per day by three. You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat.

So it would seem that this feat may help you to meet the prereqs for DD, however in this case you would be an Elf or Human Barbarian Dragon Disciple. Also, apparently your DM didn't read the feat too closely.
HalfMunchkin
05-16-06, 01:59 AM Is that the version from FRCS?
gorfnad the shiznit
05-16-06, 02:06 AM Is that the version from FRCS?

That's where I found it. Is there another source that has this feat listed differently?
MerlintheTuna
05-16-06, 02:28 AM No, it isn't.

The template's benefits do not make up for the loss of hitpoints nor do they make up for the delayed BAB and Rage improvements.

The Half-Dragon gives you +8 Str permenantly, which MORE than makes up for the delayed Rage improvement. The BAB and HP loss is the bigger issue. Still, you can eventually buy off the LA using Unearthed Arcana rules, so if that's an option, by all means go for it.

Dragon Disciple is also a decent option, but it's a bit back-end loaded. If you don't make it up to level 15 (Barb4/Sorc 1/DD 10 or Barb5/DD10 with that FR feat) you're not getting a ton out of the class. Still, you avoid the brunt of the HP loss and BAB loss, at the cost of still not getting much in the way of Barbarian powers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrinityPower 05-14-06, 03:29 PM	Is the +3 LA on a Half Dragon worth is when playing a Barbarian or other fighter-type class? The 3 lvl hit seems perhaps a bit too steep to gain the strength, specially for a Barb and his special ability progress...
Surreal 05-14-06, 04:22 PM	Not at low levels as the lack of HD is a serious weakness. At mid-high levels it's a lot better. Whether or not it's "worth it" is dependant on what you want your character to do. Wings are nice though (if you're large+)
Xaean 05-14-06, 07:15 PM	Why not take a sorcerer level and make him a dragon disciple. Of course it takes some time to become a half dragon, but I always find it somehow strange if the half dragon has about a third of the HP his human companion has.
Yue Ryong 05-14-06, 07:33 PM	Just take 'Magical Training' from PGtF and use that to meet the prerequisites dor Dragon Disciple. You save a level that way.
Xaean 05-14-06, 07:51 PM	Possible - but have you ever heard of barbarians in Halruaa? - The rules would allow it, but it wouldn't make that much sense storywise. His family could have left Halruaa when he was a child however. His parents could have died shortly afterward which forced him into the life of a barbarian. Possible but still a bit farfetched. Maybe your DM might even allow you to take this feat, if you're not from the correct region.
Lord Ian Stark 05-14-06, 09:23 PM	Is the +3 LA on a Half Dragon worth is when playing a Barbarian or other fighter-type class? The 3 lvl hit seems perhaps a bit too steep to gain the strength, specially for a Barb and his special ability progress... The template adds more than just a STR boost. Whether it's all worth a +3 LA or not for a medium sized creature is a different story. The Half-dragon is better for a fighter-type class than for a spellcasting IMO.
Vaelan 05-14-06, 10:56 PM	No, it isn't. The template's benefits do not make up for the loss of hitpoints nor do they make up for the delayed BAB and Rage improvements.
HalfMunchkin 05-14-06, 11:27 PM	Just take 'Magical Training' from PGtF and use that to meet the prerequisites dor Dragon Disciple. You save a level that way. That feat allows you to prepare and cast the cantrips as a Wizard and DD requires the ability to cast spells without preparation. It won't work. My DM pointed that out when I tried to do it.
JulesCARV 05-14-06, 11:54 PM	I think Magical Training allows you to choose between wizard training and sorcerer training. This also might not work, but if the Halruaa issue bothers you, maybe you could take one of the Complete Arcane feats of this type (Communicator, Insightful, Necropolis Born, Night Haunt, Soul of the North, Spell Hand). The catch is, although spells are cast as a level 1 sorcerer, they're spell-like abilities.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-15-06, 02:11 AM	What does a player half-dragon normaly get??? I do not have a copy of the MM on hand so only the SRD can clue me in. Do they have a favored class? Heres what I know. Half-Dragon +8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 cha, +4 natural armor, breath weapon, natural attacks, darkvision, immunities to a element, sleep, and paralysis effects. Plus you are considered a dragon. All for +3 ECL. Dragon Disciple A class that takes ten levels to complete. good/average BAB, good fort and will saves, 2 skills, d12 HD. Most of the class bonuses are spent on slowly gaining the bonuses of a half dragon. Bonus spells and wings. Which to choose? Dragon Disciple gives me wings, and makes me spend 10 of my class levels on it. Half-Dragon makes all leveling up slower. Dragon Disciple's bonus spells are a joke, 1 bonus spell learned vs just gaining a level in something that gives you the new spells per day and enhnaces your caster level... For epic playing a Dragon Disciple whould be handy. For 1~20 levels I whould go with a half-dragon. You well level up slower but when eveyone hits lv20, you well have 17 class levels in what ever you wanted. VS spending ten levels just to become a half-dragon, leaving you with 10 class levels in something decent. Setting up a half dragon. Starting off take Dragon Wings(Races of the Dragon) as your 1st level feat. This gives you a set of wings no matter your size, these wings cannot fly you around but they do let you glide and give a bonus to jumping. If the MM is the same as the released SRD then half-dragon is added to what ever your base race has. So you can do a human and have one more feat left. Take Dragons Breath and you have unlimited breath attacks per day. For levels 1~3 train up in Half-Dragon Paragon(Unearthed Arcane)(exellent BAB, d12 HD, 6 skills, good fort, will saves)The class levels stack with sorcerer magic, and you gain +1 to your natural armor. You do get a change in your breath attack to 3/day, but the feat above is better. Next, train up what ever. I like to take a level in fighter then some sorcerer levels intill I can cast level 3 spells. Then its Eldritch Knight from then on out. You have the stats and decent enough BAB for melee, plus spells for ranged attacks. Other things that work well with this setup. Improved Dragon Wings: Now you can fly by using your wings. Versatile Spellcaster: Put those cantrips to use... Entangling Exhalation: Light them up. Clinging Breath: It should be called Napalm Breath. Power Attack: Do you feel lucky? Leap Attack: Deal more with a charge. Improved Sunder: Just for the next feat, or sundering weapons that you wont use. Combat Brute: Deal more after the round you charged. Gold Half-Dragon + "eveyone cast fireball on me" = A meleer that eveyone likes to run from. Its also possible if you combo high jump ranks, wings, Expeditious Retreat, and Boots of Striding and Springing (boots speed does not stack, but +10ft is only +4 to jumps and the boots say "She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks." So the boots must grant a +5 bonus on top of the +4 for faster speed) And you chould jump over a line of fighters and take out the spell caster of their party. Its also as good as tumble since you do not provoke AOOs. you just need the room to do this so don't expected it to happen in 99.8% of the fights you are in, it sounds awsome atleast. If you want a melee capable spellcaster then Half-Dragon is the way to go. But its not really a fighter/barbarin only, or sorcerer only class, mix it up and use your breath attack alot. Edit: Oops, forgot the Dragon Breath feat has a prerequisite that includes 6HD. No matter, 1/day breath attack intill you have all three levels of Half-Dragon Paragon then its 3/day till you have 6HD and your next feat pops up.
gorfnad the shiznit 05-15-06, 02:16 AM	That feat allows you to prepare and cast the cantrips as a Wizard and DD requires the ability to cast spells without preparation. It won't work. My DM pointed that out when I tried to do it. Magical Training Type: Regional You come from a land where cantrips are taught to all who have the aptitude to learn magic. Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two. Prerequisite: Int 10 or Cha 10, elf (Evereska or Evermeet) or human (Halruaa or Nimbral). Benefit: You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard (your choice, so long as you have a score of at least 10 in the ability that controls the spellcasting for that class). You must make this decision when you first take the feat. Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast. If you choose to cast spells as a sorcerer, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Cha modifier. You know two 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. If you choose to cast spells as a wizard, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Int modifier. You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does. Special: If you already have levels in sorcerer or wizard, increase the number of 0-level spells you can cast per day by three. You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat. So it would seem that this feat may help you to meet the prereqs for DD, however in this case you would be an Elf or Human Barbarian Dragon Disciple. Also, apparently your DM didn't read the feat too closely.
HalfMunchkin 05-16-06, 01:59 AM	Is that the version from FRCS?
gorfnad the shiznit 05-16-06, 02:06 AM	Is that the version from FRCS? That's where I found it. Is there another source that has this feat listed differently?
MerlintheTuna 05-16-06, 02:28 AM	No, it isn't. The template's benefits do not make up for the loss of hitpoints nor do they make up for the delayed BAB and Rage improvements. The Half-Dragon gives you +8 Str permenantly, which MORE than makes up for the delayed Rage improvement. The BAB and HP loss is the bigger issue. Still, you can eventually buy off the LA using Unearthed Arcana rules, so if that's an option, by all means go for it. Dragon Disciple is also a decent option, but it's a bit back-end loaded. If you don't make it up to level 15 (Barb4/Sorc 1/DD 10 or Barb5/DD10 with that FR feat) you're not getting a ton out of the class. Still, you avoid the brunt of the HP loss and BAB loss, at the cost of still not getting much in the way of Barbarian powers.