Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Headstrong2 12-17-05, 08:28 PM	my 11th level gnome wizard just died :weep: so i get to come back as a 10th level character, so i am thinking about going 5barbarian/5rogue. there abilities seem to stack up nicely. any comments/advice?
Elemental_Elf 12-17-05, 09:00 PM	I have a question - Will you be a very mauverable/Dex Based character - i.e. abusing the Weapon Finesse feat, the sneak attacks and fast movement OR will you be a Strength based character that abuses his cleaves and other feats while having the option to sneak attack and use the rougue skills OR will you be a mix of the 2? Just curious :D
Polaris 12-17-05, 09:20 PM	Headstrong, Barbarian and Rogue go well together, but I strongly recommend that you don't split it 5/5. IMHO the best combination is 2/8 or 8/2 and that would depend if you want to be more of a fighter or a skill oriented person. -Polaris Edit: Try to be sure you have at least 4 levels of rogue and 2 levels of barbarian whatever you decide. That way, your uncanny dodge will stack for both classes.
Crichton 12-17-05, 09:28 PM	Combine Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue and you've got yourself... CONAN THE BARBARIAN!!
bob_the_great 12-17-05, 10:00 PM	the d6 of the rogue really hurts, especially when combined with light armor. you'd probably want level 1 to be rogue for the orgy of skillpoints, thats -6 hp right there. too many levels of rogue will lessen your ability to tank, though evasion and imp uncanny dodge will help overall survivability. also, 5 levels of rogue loses you 2 bab. i'd prob go 7/3 barb/rogue or 8/2 rogue/barb (with extra rage). either a barbarian with a little roguishness or a rogue who can rage and throw down in the right situation. 5/5 just means you're not gonna be a very good fighter or a very good rogue
Polaris 12-17-05, 10:12 PM	the d6 of the rogue really hurts, especially when combined with light armor. you'd probably want level 1 to be rogue for the orgy of skillpoints, thats -6 hp right there. too many levels of rogue will lessen your ability to tank, though evasion and imp uncanny dodge will help overall survivability. also, 5 levels of rogue loses you 2 bab. i'd prob go 7/3 barb/rogue or 8/2 rogue/barb (with extra rage). either a barbarian with a little roguishness or a rogue who can rage and throw down in the right situation. 5/5 just means you're not gonna be a very good fighter or a very good rogue You want at least four levels of Rogue so you can stack your Barbarian and Rogue levels for Improved Uncanny Dodge. -Polaris
Headstrong2 12-18-05, 07:16 AM	Ok, what i planned on doing was going half-orc, and going for a 20str and using a 2handed sword. Feats i would take would be; improved int, combat expertise, improved feint and improved critical(2handed sword). At level 10 i start with enough cash to get some decent armour and weapon. The way i'd play him with the 40ft movement would be to always try for the flank, or tumble into a place where i can get it. Doing 2d6+8 +3d6 sneak attack or with a critical 4d6+16 +3-6d6 cant remember if on a critical you double the sneak attack aswell :confused:
Polaris 12-18-05, 12:06 PM	Headstrong, I'd go Barbarian 6/Rogue 4 then. Your rogue levels will only cost you one bab, and you will have the skill points to get a very respectable tumble as well as evasion, uncanny dodge (which will stack with barbarian uncanny dodge), and 2d6 sneak attack. I would look for a good solid warrior PrC (and the extra rogue levels are good here too for skill prereqs) or continue to advance in Barbarian. -Polaris
Thubby 12-18-05, 12:14 PM	u dont double sneak attack, if i were you, id make a prestige class, something like "mad hunter" like d10 hp, full bab, and slower rage/sneak attack, use both skill sets and drop the artsy ones like disable divice and diplomacy, yada yada. i think they would be very compatable. P.S. alot of u are forgetting xp penalty for the barb/rog splits u are suggesting
Polaris 12-18-05, 12:25 PM	u dont double sneak attack, if i were you, id make a prestige class, something like "mad hunter" like d10 hp, full bab, and slower rage/sneak attack, use both skill sets and drop the artsy ones like disable divice and diplomacy, yada yada. i think they would be very compatable. P.S. alot of u are forgetting xp penalty for the barb/rog splits u are suggesting 1. Thubby. No. What we are assuming (since we weren't told otherwise) is that the new character would likely be human or at the very least have a favored class of rogue, barbarian, or ANY. The XP penalty for multiclassing is the "I didn't plan ahead penalty" if you are only talking about two classes. 2. Prestigue classes are good and if you really, really want one that doesn't have uncanny dodge, then you can stop at rogue 2. HOWEVER, a warrior type loses very little by going from rogue 2 to rogue 4 (and most importantly does not lose precious bab) and gets great skill points and a skill list which makes it a lot easier to qualify for some PrCs. Ultimately the exact combination is up to you (the OP), but 5/5 bar/rog is about as weak as you can do it. -Polaris
Regulas 12-19-05, 12:16 AM	What I did was make a grapplin specialist (sadly the reaping mauler doesnt have alota abilties that are usful against non-giants) barb rouge makes for a decent grappler. Since in a gapple you deal full sneak atatck dmg all the time combined with spikes and base dmg my hugs were pretty powerfull. With enchanted spikes I was doing easily 6d6+str, and more often then not my oponets couldnt evan do anything in retaliation. Oh and Polaris you wouldnt happen to play EVE would you?
Ruhl-Than Sage 12-19-05, 12:41 AM	That's gross! I wouldn't call that attractive. .....Sorry. Anyway, Improved Feint definately sounds like a good idea for the combo. You could do really well with Power attack and Leap attack also. Since both rouge and barbarian give you Jump as a class skill, your gonna have a very high strength, and your increased movement rate gives you a bonus to jump with a running start as well, it will be really easy for you to make to 10 foot jump minimum to gain the benefits of this feat. Plus, wielding a two-handed weapon bumps you up into the 3 for 1 bracket for your power attack using this feat. So, you set up ambushes where you can jump out of the bushes, rage, (or whatever) and leap at your enemy while charging. You gain your sneak attack and can power attack at a 3 for 1 rate, and the charge even helps offset the penalty your taking to your attack. When you crit it gets even more ridiculous. With a Power attack at -5 to hit you end up with. 2d6+26 +2d6 sneak attack. (average damage: 40, enough for massive damage on a medium creature) Or, 4d6+52 +2d6 sneak attack on a critical hit. (average damage: 73, enough for massive damage on a gargantuan creature) Instant Kill!
nastynate 12-19-05, 12:55 AM	I did this once, using the martial rogue variant from UA to get extra feats instead of sneak attack, and then went into frenzied berserker. I do like the grappler idea though. At higher levels you could dip into shadow dancer, and presto you've got a wizard's worst nightmare.
Polaris 12-19-05, 02:44 AM	Oh and Polaris you wouldnt happen to play EVE would you? Um, no. Why do you ask? :confused: -Polaris
Lotus Crane 12-19-05, 05:19 AM	Not taking any PrCs into consideration since you haven't told us which books are available to you, I'd probably say rogue 4/barbarian 6, and continue to advance as a barbarian if you're more interested in combat, or rogue 6/barbarian 4, and continue to advance in rogue if you're more interested in skills. The most important thing to remember when multiclassing a medium BAB class, is to take levels in multiples of four. Just like how one should always add fighter levels to a build in multiples of two (for the bonus feat), medium BAB classes are best in multiples of four to gain the most out of losing just 1 BAB. It's because with medium BAB progression, BAB is gained at 2nd-4th levels, 6th-8th, 10th-12th, 14th-16th, 18th-20th, but not at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, or 17th. Leaving rogue at 5th level is sub-optimal because you've essentially "lost" 2 BAB over 5 levels, rather than only "losing" 1 BAB over 4 levels if you leave rogue at 4th. Alternatively, instead of multi-classing rogue and barbarian, you may enjoy playing a ranger or scout instead. But that's ultimately up to you.
Votan 12-19-05, 07:24 AM	Alternatively, instead of multi-classing rogue and barbarian, you may enjoy playing a ranger or scout instead. But that's ultimately up to you. Also, I think that multi-classing in either ranger or scout could also do what you want and get you more depending on why you are creating the multi-class. Ranger has 6 skill points per level (only 2 less than a rogue) but full BAB. Scout has the same skill points as a rogue, a reasonable skill list, the ability to skirmish which works well with making lethal charges and a better hit die than the rogue. Things to consider . . .
Ralphius_Maximus 12-19-05, 08:09 AM	I have little to add to the theories already presented. However, I will say that you shouldn't bother with Combat Expertise. It is limited by Intelligence, and with a Half-Orc you have -2 after adjustments. Far more useful would be Combat Reflexes. In particular if you can get a decent hide score, it makes you absolutely deadly in an ambush situation.
Rulebook 12-19-05, 08:48 AM	combat expertiese is not limited by intelegence, you just need a 13 INT to take the feat. its limited by BAB or 5, which ever is lower.
Votan 12-19-05, 10:03 AM	combat expertiese is not limited by intelegence, you just need a 13 INT to take the feat. its limited by BAB or 5, which ever is lower. True but the 13 INT needed to take the feat is rough for a Half-Orc; intelligence is rarely a priority as a stat and a 15 is painful to squander there unless you are using very high point buy or you have rolled some amazing stats.
Junkyard Dog 12-19-05, 02:21 PM	You've already had a lot of useful input here, but I like the idea of Bbn 2/Rog 8 the best. It gives you improved uncanny dodge and rage 1/day. And if you're going to sneak attack, why not do it while raging with a greataxe? Proficiency with martial weapons gives you much better selection than a standard rogue. Fast movement from Bbn meshes nicely with sneak attack, allowing you to get to enemies who are farther away from you while they're still flat-footed. Putting yourself one die of sneak attack damage behind a straight-up rogue in exchange for all that seems worth it to me. I agree with earlier posts that 5/5 waters down both classes too much. And I wouldn't want to go with just a level or two of rogue. For a 10th-level character, 1d6 of sneak attack damage just isn't going to make a difference in the overwhelming majority of cases. I can't imagine that what you'd be giving up in base attack bonus, hit points and slowed progression in rage would be worth it, compared to a straight-up Bbn. With that kind of speed and the ability to max out Jump in both classes, be sure to keep Tumble maxed out. Those two skills are in my opinion the most useful combat skills in the game. The Bbn's fast movement gives you an effective +4 on Jump checks and makes Tumble all the better. And 5 ranks in each gives you a synergy in each.
Waterhammer 12-19-05, 02:33 PM	The one disadvantage of Barbarian/Rogue is in the will save. However there is a feat for that. Iron will.
Tony Vargas 12-19-05, 03:52 PM	Ok, what i planned on doing was going half-orc, and going for a 20str and using a 2handed sword. ...The way i'd play him with the 40ft movement would be to always try for the flank, or tumble into a place where i can get it. I think you'd probably want to go mostly-barbarian, then, since you're primarily a combatant, and it doesn't sound like you'll have a lot of call for the Rogue's skills beyond Tumble. If you take at least 5 levels of barbarian, you already get Improved Uncanny Dodge, so there's not much point in worrying about stacking them. Since you're a combatant, I'd worry about losing BAB, so I'd plan to take a maximum of 4 Rogue levels - probably not all 4 of them at 10th, either. If you were going more for a Rogue, I'd've said just take the one level of barb - you can't afford to dilute skills much if you're the party rogue, and 1 level's all you need to pick up Rage and Fast Movement.
Lotus Crane 12-19-05, 04:34 PM	The one disadvantage of Barbarian/Rogue is in the will save. However there is a feat for that. Iron will. Iron Will isn't necessary, rage increases Will saves as much or more. And at higher levels, you can either get Slippery Mind for rogue, or Indomitable Will for barbarian. That's one of the many reasons why I always feel fighters are inferior to barbarians; fighters are easily dominated, barbarians not always so.
Votan 12-19-05, 04:43 PM	The one disadvantage of Barbarian/Rogue is in the will save. However there is a feat for that. Iron will. Yep, but that is one more reason not to go Barbarian 5/Rogue 5. Will save is +2 for this combination (Fort +5, reflex +5) and BAB +8. Barbarian 6/Rogue 4 has: Will save +3 (Fort save + 6, Reflex Save +5) and BAB +9. These are nicer numbers, overall.
Surreal 12-19-05, 04:56 PM	Scorpion's Resolve in Sandstorm gives you a +4 against mind effects. It's a better bonus than iron will, but a little more focused.