Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 04-21-05, 03:26 PM	Over the last week, I've been involved in several discussions about houserules to stop Barbarians from keeling over dead when they stop raging and they've taken damage in excess of their normal HP. For instance, assume a 10th level Barbarian is taken to 4 HP, then his rage ends. Everyone I've talked to assumes the barbian will immediately die because he loses his CON bonus, which removes 20 HP, leaving him at -16 and dead, dead, dead. This doesn't happen! Let me say that again, louder. BARBARIANS NEVER DIE FROM ENDING A RAGE! Nobody EVER dies from ending a spell or effect that boosts their CON score! It's in the SRD, Abilities and Conditions, under "Ability Score Loss": If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. So if I rage and gain 80 HP, then take damage until I'm down to 30 HP, when the rage ends I'm still left with my level in HP (20 in this case)! Same thing if Bear's Endurance wears off when I'm at 1 HP -- I still have 1 HP afterwards, because I can't be reduced below my level when the CON drops back to normal, but I've already taken damage below that level. And in all the time I've been on the boards, I've never seen anyone give the right answer to this question! Suddenly all my concerns about Raging are gone, because you can't die from merely ending a rage! Edit: Changed the title. After the discussion, obviously I was wrong. :weep:
Ancient Wyrm 04-21-05, 03:34 PM	Ending a rage isn't Constitution "damage" or "drain." RAW, nothing stops it from killing a barb, even though stuff like poison and blood drain can't.
Tony Vargas 04-21-05, 03:35 PM	That's your total hps, not your current hps. If you're, say, a 1st level wizard and you have 4 hps, and you're CON-drained down to 1 CON (-5 hps/die), you still have 1 hp, total, when fully healed. If you had taken 11 points of damage prior to the CON drain (putting you at -7, then the CON drain reduces your total hps to 1, and the 11 points of damage puts you at -10). CON drains don't inflict damage, they change your hp total. They have no effect on the amount of damage you've taken beforehand.
strenoth 04-21-05, 03:43 PM	Tony has it right.
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 03:47 PM	Vargas is right, it pertains to you hit point total, not current hit points. Sorry that you still have concerns over raging. :)
Keenath 04-21-05, 03:55 PM	That's your total hps, not your current hps. I'm afraid not. If it meant maximum HP, it would say that. You take damage from CON drain -- both your maximum and current HP drop by 1/HD for every point your CON mod drops. If you're, say, a 1st level wizard and you have 4 hps, and you're CON-drained down to 1 CON (-5 hps/die), you still have 1 hp, total, when fully healed. If you had taken 11 points of damage prior to the CON drain (putting you at -7, then the CON drain reduces your total hps to 1, and the 11 points of damage puts you at -10). This is not borne out by the rules. It says "If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops." One hit point means one hit point, I'm afraid, not "one maximum HP". Likewise, it says, "A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die." Your hit point score is your current HP, not the maximum, at least in every D&D publication I've ever seen. If you have some evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. CON drains don't inflict damage, they change your hp total. They have no effect on the amount of damage you've taken beforehand. We don't track damage taken, we track current HP and maximum HP. If it says you can't be CON drained to below 1 HP per level, I'm pretty sure that's what it means, not "your maximum HP cannot fall below 1 HP per level". If that's what they meant, that's what they'd say.
Keenath 04-21-05, 03:59 PM	Ending a rage isn't Constitution "damage" or "drain." RAW, nothing stops it from killing a barb, even though stuff like poison and blood drain can't. Okay, this is a valid point, but I'd argue that ending a CON boosting effect should be treated as CON damage, if only because that's the only rules we HAVE for what happens when your con score is reduced.
Silimaure 04-21-05, 04:03 PM	I say forget everything about Con drain and damage, the rules say you can't be killed by them. However, like Tony pointed out, the effects of a Rage that ends are not Con drain or damage, they are just bonuses that go away to have the barb's con go back to normal.
Keenath 04-21-05, 04:10 PM	Actually, on examining the SRD section in question: Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value. If a character’s Constitution score drops... That refers to ability scores dropping due to non-drain, non-damage sources such as Curses or Enervation. It then discusses what happens when the constitution score DROPS, and makes no claim on what caused that drop. What you basically have is, "Here are ability drain and ability damage, and what they do. Here is another way to lose ability scores, and how they work. And in any case, when your CON score drops, here's how it works." So yes, this does indeed have everything to do with ending a rage, dismissing a Bear's Endurance, or taking off an Amulet of Health.
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 04:25 PM	That fact that it states hit points in terms of per/HD, it is referring to maximum hit points. When you gain a level you always gain at least one hit point, no matter what your con score is. In this instance, the text merely restates that no matter what your con score is dropped to, you still have at least 1 HP/HD.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 04:30 PM	Actually, if your con is reduced to 0 you are dead. You do not take damage from a con drain, you temporarily lose HP until you recover your con back. Even the DMG on pg 292 states that the lose X amount of hit points when they lose con. Nothing states its just your HP maximum, it states you lose X amount of HP. If it was just your HP total, it would state to adjust your maximum HP appropiately. I will look later, but I think its in a FAQ or something. EVEN if it was just hp total... If you total damage exceeds your current HP total, you are dead.
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 04:33 PM	Addendum: Any damage sustained thus far is then subtracted from your new max hit points to get your current hit point level. At which point...well, you know the rest.
Keenath 04-21-05, 04:56 PM	I have to admit I'm shocked that we're actually arguing that it doesn't mean HP when it says HP. In the section on Temporary HP, it has a subheading that says, "Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points: An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are." That obviously doesn't mean maximum HP, it means real, actual HP. Then, over in Ability Loss, "If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die." Why do these two passages mean different things according to you? There's no reason to re-state that your maximum HP changes when your constitution changes; that's covered elsewhere. Maximum HP is always your rolled HP modified by your CON score, but never less than 1 HP per level. The only reason to add these sections is to specify that you can't ever die of CON loss until you actually hit 0 CON, and to specify that you gain both max HP and current HP when your CON goes up.
DM Denubis 04-21-05, 05:18 PM	Umm... It also has that little "these are not temporary HP, and are not lost first" thing in the barbarian's rage... Which means that they are indeed subtracted from your current HP, which could kill you. Ending your rage is NOT ability damage, nor is it ability drain. If you have a glossary, please look up Ability Score Loss. Some attacks reduce the opponent's score in one or more abilities. This loss an be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability damage). Both ability drain and ability damage are under Ability Score Loss, which is defined as an attack. Now, if you'd like to attempt to argue that ending your rage is an attack...
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 05:19 PM	I'm glad you pointed that section out because for a second, I thought you might be right. But then I read the rest of the section where it gives the example of Krusk. Krusk rages and gains six hit points. Raising his hit point total from 31 to 37. If Krusk takes damage dropping him to 32 hit points, Jozan can cure those lost points and get him back to 37. If Krusk is so wounded at the end of his rage that he only has 5 hit points left, when he loses his 6 extra hit points, he drops to -1 hit points and is dying. I think that pretty much sums it all up, unless of course you want to argue that the PHB is wrong in how it applied the rules in the example of Krusk. :)
Kaboth 04-21-05, 05:20 PM	Well I just want to add a small thing as well... What ever way you rule, you must rule everything that way. Such as how you treat something that raises the ability score. Meaning If they had 20 points of damage and had 40 total HP and their con raised by 4 what would you do? A. raise their total to 60 but they still would have only 20hp left. or B. Raise their total to 60 but also add 20 more HP so they have 40 now. See my point? All you do then is take the same thought and instead of using the word raise, use the word lowered. Both are fine with me so long as dont use the beneficial effect for raising and the beneficial effect for lowering.
Keenath 04-21-05, 05:28 PM	Well, okay... Thanks for that example, FB... I'm limited to the SRD at the moment, so I don't have all those things available to me. Dang. Now I still have to figure out a houserule that makes Rage less prone to killing the barbarian. Kaboth, I'm not sure what your point is. Nobody is arguing that you shouldn't lose ANY HP when your con gets lowered, I was just saying there's a lower limit to the HP you can end up with. Unfortunately, that only applies to ability drain and ability damage, not just generic loss. So, that makes me wonder, though -- that suggests that Poison can't kill somebody until it drops their HP to 0, while a Curse can! A curse gives you an effective HP drop, so you lose 3 HP per level when Constitution-cursed -- but it isn't damage or drain, so apparently a sufficently injured fighter with 30 CON could die of it!
Tony Vargas 04-21-05, 05:33 PM	I have to admit I'm shocked that we're actually arguing that it doesn't mean HP when it says HP. There's hit points, damage taken, temporary hps, current hps.... "Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points: An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are." That obviously doesn't mean maximum HP, it means real, actual HP. There's no difference, really. If your hit point score goes up, you have more hit points, if it goes down, you have fewer. Those are real hps. If you've taken damage, those are real hps, too, they don't go away. Your current hit points are just your hit points less damage taken. Then there are temporary hps - they aren't real, when you take damage, they go away first, before you start taking 'real hps' of damage, and can't be restored by healing. Then, over in Ability Loss, "If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die." Note it says 'hit point score' not 'current hit points.' There's no reason to re-state that your maximum HP changes when your constitution changes; that's covered elsewhere. Maximum HP is always your rolled HP modified by your CON score, but never less than 1 HP per level.The rules re-state a lot of things, just for the sake of clarity.
Keenath 04-21-05, 05:39 PM	Yeah, I already surrendered. Krusk is it; if it's in the example, they obviously meant exactly what it sounds like, no matter how much that screws with the Barbarian. Bleh.
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 05:40 PM	Yeah, well, it's been my experience that Barbarians are the first to die in the party, so I would have to agree that they are prone to dying more than they should be. That's why no one plays them anymore in our group. :( Surely not what the designers would would have intended.
Tony Vargas 04-21-05, 05:40 PM	Now I still have to figure out a houserule that makes Rage less prone to killing the barbarian. Why? The berserker who keeps fighting after taking increadible damage and drops dead at the end of the battle is really kind of classic. I was just saying there's a lower limit to the HP you can end up with. Unfortunately, that only applies to ability drain and ability damage, not just generic loss.I don't want to sound argumentative, here, I'm just trying to be helpful, but, you're still not quite getting it. That lower limit is to your hp score, not your current hps. A barbarian who has, say 9hps/die (for ease of math) goes up to 11hps/die when he rages, and back down to 9hps/die when he comes out of rage. If he gets CON drained and loses another 10 points of CON after that, he's down to 4hps/die. He still hasn't come anywhere near the 1hp/die minimum. Throughout the CON changes, whatever damage he's taken remains the same, and is aplied against his hps - if at any point that leaves him with 0 current hps, he's dropped; enough less than that, and he's dead.
FineasBoggs 04-21-05, 05:41 PM	Yep it sure does screw with the barbarian. ;)
Kaboth 04-21-05, 05:44 PM	Yeah, I already surrendered. Krusk is it; if it's in the example, they obviously meant exactly what it sounds like, no matter how much that screws with the Barbarian. Bleh. Just think of someone dying of heatstroke while running a marathon. They pushed themselves too hard. It happens all the time to people. The only thing I can think of that would help the barbarian in this scenario is a mgic item that triggers healing or a feat that auto stablizes the barbarian when hes negative, which there is already a feat that does it, I jsut dont remember the name. As far as my point, well I was under the impression that people were stating only their total HP gets lowered not their actual HP and thats wrong. However, the lowest you can lower ones HP total is 1 per HD.
Keenath 04-21-05, 06:01 PM	Why? The berserker who keeps fighting after taking increadible damage and drops dead at the end of the battle is really kind of classic. Oh, I totally agree with THAT. That is classic, but in D&D it's a pretty terrible way to lose a character. Moreover, it means either Barbarians die on a regular basis when they quit raging, or they (meaning the players) pretend they didn't get any HP from raging, and go run to the cleric when they get close to what would be 0 if they didn't have a CON boost. The first case makes everyone want to avoid the class; the second actively avoids the "classic", "cinematic" situation in a metagame way. The Barbarian is between Scilla and Charybdis - metagame or you die. I want to find a middle path; some way that the Barbarian can get some benefit out of that CON boost to HP, but one that doesn't inevitably lead to his death! I have an inkling of a couple ideas for how to fix it, but I wonder if they're balanced, since the net effect is that the Barbarian needs less healing, one way or the other, while taking the same amount of damage. (On the other hand, one could argue that a Wizard naturally needs less healing, and a barbarian more, simply because the wizard has fewer hit points to lose.) The first idea is making the HP gain into Temporary HP instead of real ones. That gives the Barbarian an extra damage absorbing ability, but doesn't put him in danger of dying afterward. When you quit raging, any remaining temp HP go away, and if you don't have any, then it doesn't matter. The second idea, I'm not sure how to handle, but I have some inkling of turning any negative HP into subdual or something. I haven't worked out how to handle it, though. Any suggestions for good house-rules would be appreciated. I don't want to sound argumentative, here, I'm just trying to be helpful, but, you're still not quite getting it. No, it's okay. I do get it, that's what I always thought it was, but today I was looking at the SRD and trying to figure out how to make my barbarian more survivable, and I thought I'd stumbled across something. What you quoted was just me clarifying what I meant to Kaboth, and saying it wasn't inconsistent.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 06:09 PM	Well at low levels the rage will be more detrimental to the barbarian, but as he gets levels and DR and such. He will be much more survivable and at 17th level he is no longer fatigued so that wont happen. The bonuses a Barbarian gets for raging are HUGE, there has to be a serious drawback to it. Another option is to use a spell or magic item that prevents Fatigue.
Tony Vargas 04-21-05, 06:22 PM	Oh, I totally agree with THAT. That is classic, but in D&D it's a pretty terrible way to lose a character. ... The Barbarian is between Scilla and Charybdis - metagame or you die. OK, you've got a point. Though, maybe, if a player doesn't want his character die dramatically at some point, he shouldn't play a class that is so good at it. ;) The first idea is making the HP gain into Temporary HP instead of real ones. That gives the Barbarian an extra damage absorbing ability, but doesn't put him in danger of dying afterward. Nod. That'd work. For the short durration of Rage, the main dawback of Temporary hps (they can't be healed) doesn't mean much though. You /could/ give the barbarian temporary hps while raging equal to 2*his barbarian level (increased to 3x & 4x at the same points that his STR bonus for rage increases) - instead of a CON bonus while Raging. That way, it wouldn't have to be an exception to the usual rules for CON changes, and, it would balance the fact that Temporary hit points are actualy better than hps from increased CON, given the short durration of Rage. The second idea, I'm not sure how to handle, but I have some inkling of turning any negative HP into subdual or something. I haven't worked out how to handle it, though. Any suggestions for good house-rules would be appreciated. You could give the Barbarian a FORT save (DC? I have no idea... it'd have to be high, since they have good FORT) at the end of his Rage. If he makes it, some proportion of the hps he's taken become subdual - for instance, the number of hps he took over his normal maximum before Rage. He can still dramaticaly collapse but, be he doesn't automatically die. What you quoted was just me clarifying what I meant to Kaboth, and saying it wasn't inconsistent.OK, as long as you get that it's the same for any sort of change in CON. (OK, except, /maybe/ for Polymorph...:rolleyes: )
Attila 04-21-05, 06:29 PM	...Moreover, it means either Barbarians die on a regular basis when they quit raging, or they (meaning the players) pretend they didn't get any HP from raging, and go run to the cleric when they get close to what would be 0 if they didn't have a CON boost. The first case makes everyone want to avoid the class; the second actively avoids the "classic", "cinematic" situation in a metagame way. The Barbarian is between Scilla and Charybdis - metagame or you die. That's a good point, I never really considered whether calling out current HP (for any class) to the party Cleric was metagaming. However, if you make the case that it's not metagaming for a fighter to call out his current HP and for the Cleric to know to heal him, then I think the same would apply to the Barb. Ex. Cleric looks at fighter and notices that he is bleeding profusely. He thinks 'this guy needs to be healed'. Well the same would apply to the Barb. only the Cleric would add 'wow...and krusk is still going at it'.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 06:34 PM	That's a good point, I never really considered whether calling out current HP (for any class) to the party Cleric was metagaming. However, if you make the case that it's not metagaming for a fighter to call out his current HP and for the Cleric to know to heal him, then I think the same would apply to the Barb. Ex. Cleric looks at fighter and notices that he is bleeding profusely. He thinks 'this guy needs to be healed'. Well the same would apply to the Barb. only the Cleric would add 'wow...and krusk is still going at it'. Thats what Status and Greater Status are for....
Keenath 04-21-05, 06:35 PM	Well at low levels the rage will be more detrimental to the barbarian, but as he gets levels and DR and such. He will be much more survivable and at 17th level he is no longer fatigued so that wont happen. The bonuses a Barbarian gets for raging are HUGE, there has to be a serious drawback to it. Another option is to use a spell or magic item that prevents Fatigue. Why must it have a big drawback? Rage is the defining characteristic of the barbarian class! The benefits of spellcasting are huge -- the benefits of having lots of feats are huge -- rage is no different. I mean, I'm already fatigued afterward and take a -2 AC during, why should I have a big chance of dying on top of that? :ahem: By the time I'm not fatigued after raging, it's hardly even worth talking about. And actually, even with the DR and so on, the problem gets WORSE as you go up in level, not BETTER, because you get a bigger bonus, and can get further into the hole. Consider: At 10th level, I get 20 HP. At 11th, 33! By the time I hit 20, I'm looking at 80 HP that I theoretically gain, but don't dare use. Then I get hit with Harm, and I'm down to 1 HP -- I better get Healed before my rage ends, because even a Cure Critical isn't going to get me out of that hole! My rage ends while I'm 70 down, and I'm going to DIE. That's the whole problem -- A con boost, which OUGHT to be a benefit, is actually a big invitation to death! That's wrong, and needs to be fixed!
Keenath 04-21-05, 06:40 PM	Just think of someone dying of heatstroke while running a marathon. They pushed themselves too hard. It happens all the time to people. The only thing I can think of that would help the barbarian in this scenario is a mgic item that triggers healing or a feat that auto stablizes the barbarian when hes negative, which there is already a feat that does it, I jsut dont remember the name. Diehard. But it's different in D&D, you're thinking of the D20 Modern version. And that STILL doesn't help if you drop from 3 to -38. That just stops you from bleeding out if you're between -1 and -9. As far as my point, well I was under the impression that people were stating only their total HP gets lowered not their actual HP and thats wrong. However, the lowest you can lower ones HP total is 1 per HD. :twitch: Did you even read the thread? The argument was all about your last assertion! I said I'd discovered that Barbarians can never die after a rage because they end up with at least 1 HP/HD, but FB and Tony proved that you can, indeed, drop negative from coming off a rage. We all agree that con loss means a loss of both current HP and maximum HP, we were just disagreeing over whether the current HP loss stopped somewhere, or went all the way down.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 07:07 PM	Why must it have a big drawback? Rage is the defining characteristic of the barbarian class! The benefits of spellcasting are huge -- the benefits of having lots of feats are huge -- rage is no different. I mean, I'm already fatigued afterward and take a -2 AC during, why should I have a big chance of dying on top of that? :ahem: By the time I'm not fatigued after raging, it's hardly even worth talking about. And actually, even with the DR and so on, the problem gets WORSE as you go up in level, not BETTER, because you get a bigger bonus, and can get further into the hole. Consider: At 10th level, I get 20 HP. At 11th, 33! By the time I hit 20, I'm looking at 80 HP that I theoretically gain, but don't dare use. Then I get hit with Harm, and I'm down to 1 HP -- I better get Healed before my rage ends, because even a Cure Critical isn't going to get me out of that hole! My rage ends while I'm 70 down, and I'm going to DIE. That's the whole problem -- A con boost, which OUGHT to be a benefit, is actually a big invitation to death! That's wrong, and needs to be fixed! All the classes have benefits and drawbacks, its not like the Barbarian class has something unique when dealing with issues about there class. A rogue can die from a poison trap if they mess up, or a caster that tries to cast magic on an item and it explodes as a trap or any number of class related issues. A rogue is going to come across poison more so than any of their party members should they be immune to the poison? I mean +4 to your physical stats is huge, its almost equal to a 6th level spell in its effect (tenser's transformation). When the spell is over it can kill the user of the power too.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 07:30 PM	Dont forget the con spells like Bear's Endurance too... that can kill as well.... It not like Barbarians face this alone, but they certainly face more so than others.
q'afuu 04-21-05, 08:13 PM	There is no problem, as long as you keep in mind that those hp will go away when your rage ends. It's not like you suddenly have *less* hp than before, you merely fall back on your original number. The extra hp from raging are simply a way of increasing your hp reservoir for a short while, giving yourself and other party members a bit more time to act when you come close to dying and, for a short while, to stay on your feet after taking blows that'd take someone else clean out. That's all they do - if those hp didn't go away when the rage is ended, it'd pretty much be self-healing, which is not what this class is about. It's still pretty good though.
True Archon 04-21-05, 08:52 PM	Why must it have a big drawback? Rage is the defining characteristic of the barbarian class! The benefits of spellcasting are huge -- the benefits of having lots of feats are huge -- rage is no different. I mean, I'm already fatigued afterward and take a -2 AC during, why should I have a big chance of dying on top of that? :ahem: By the time I'm not fatigued after raging, it's hardly even worth talking about. And actually, even with the DR and so on, the problem gets WORSE as you go up in level, not BETTER, because you get a bigger bonus, and can get further into the hole. Consider: At 10th level, I get 20 HP. At 11th, 33! By the time I hit 20, I'm looking at 80 HP that I theoretically gain, but don't dare use. Then I get hit with Harm, and I'm down to 1 HP -- I better get Healed before my rage ends, because even a Cure Critical isn't going to get me out of that hole! My rage ends while I'm 70 down, and I'm going to DIE. That's the whole problem -- A con boost, which OUGHT to be a benefit, is actually a big invitation to death! That's wrong, and needs to be fixed! If there weren't drawbacks to rage.... no one would play the other warrior classes (too bad this never presented itself as a complaint in the numerous fighter vs. barbarian threads). It's one of those situations where you can't have your cake and eat it too. Just keep track of your hp and the amount of time your rage is still going to be in effect. If worse comes to worse and you do die.... at least you died in one hell of a way... kinda like a boar impaling itself on a spear to get to the spear-wielder.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 09:14 PM	If there weren't drawbacks to rage.... no one would play the other warrior classes (too bad this never presented itself as a complaint in the numerous fighter vs. barbarian threads). It's one of those situations where you can't have your cake and eat it too. Just keep track of your hp and the amount of time your rage is still going to be in effect. If worse comes to worse and you do die.... at least you died in one hell of a way... kinda like a boar impaling itself on a spear to get to the spear-wielder. There is no problem, as long as you keep in mind that those hp will go away when your rage ends. It's not like you suddenly have *less* hp than before, you merely fall back on your original number. The extra hp from raging are simply a way of increasing your hp reservoir for a short while, giving yourself and other party members a bit more time to act when you come close to dying an, for a short while, to stay on your feat after taking blows that'd take someone else clean out. That's all they do - if those hp didn't go away when the rage is ended, it'd pretty much be self-healing, which is not what this class is about. It's still pretty good though. You know these two comments are probably the best arguements I have seen about rage and its consequences. Its the players that should watch and be aware of their barbarians rage. That and why would anyone play a fighter past level 4, when they could take 1 to 4 levels of fighter and then go the rest barbarian or heck maybe all barbarian.
Keenath 04-21-05, 09:23 PM	Bear's Endurance is Like Rage: Yes, it is. On the other hand, BE lasts for minutes at a time, rather than a handful of rounds. Even at its highest, you won't be getting more than two minutes out of Rage, and at that sort of level you can expect almost half an hour on a single Bear's Endurance spell. So, while yes, you can get it dispelled or have the duration expire, the chances of it running out when you're low on HP are much less than a Barbarian, who is going to be raging in the middle of a tough combat. Rage is like a sixth level spell: Not really. It's equivalent to two second-level spells, but with an incredibly short duration. It's equivalent to the Bard 2/Wiz 3 spell "Rage", which has a smaller bonus, but no fatigue afterward and a duration of "concentration". At higher levels the bonuses go up, but by that time a 3rd level spell is almost a joke anyway. Rage needs drawbacks so people play other classes: Do fighters need a drawback to getting all those feats? Do Clerics need a drawback to having all those spells? Do rangers need to risk death every time they use two weapons in combat? Barbarians get one really good combat ability, and that's Rage. They don't need a huge drawback every time they use it. They have two medium drawbacks already: the AC drop and the fatigue. There's no problem as long as you know you'll be losing the HP again: Now, that's the argument that bothers me. First, it's a sort of hidden defect. It's not immediately obvious that you could die from raging; it says you gain 4 STR and 4 CON, and mentions that you get HP because of the Con boost. It does make mention that you lose those again, but unless you really sit and think about it, you don't realize that you're talking about a potentially lethal situation. Moreover, that's the Barbarian's one big combat power -- he gets strength and constitution. If you "always keep it in mind" and "try to stay above the limit", you're basically not getting the benefit of having extra HP (except as a moderate version of Diehard), and wose, you're playing against the whole concept of a barbarian rage as unfocused, instinctual fighting. This isn't a case of "you can't have your cake and eat it too", it's "you can have a slice of cake, but I get the top layer!"
BlaineTog 04-21-05, 09:32 PM	If you don't want the Barbarian to die after raging, just add one line to it: "If the barbarian would die due to loss of hit points because his rage ends, he is instead reduced to -9 HP and must make stability checks." (This could probably be worded better). This way, he not only has a chance to stabylize but the cleric also has a round to heal him.
Keenath 04-21-05, 09:34 PM	Yes, after a rage you do "fall back" to whatever your total would've been without the rage. So you didn't really gain any ability to shrug off and avoid damage, which is what HP is defined as meaning. You just gained the ability to ignore damage for a few rounds, which is a much weaker ability. This gets back around to what I'm saying. A barbarian's big class ability is only halfway what it should be. You get lots of strength. But you don't really get any HP bonus. A Barbarian isn't a heavily armed fighter. He's going to be the easiest melee type to hit, in most cases. He makes up for that with DR and HP. DR is not really an issue, since you don't get any for a while, and when you do pick it up it's more of a perk than an actual benefit in combat. One point is nice, but not particularly a lifesaver at seventh level. HP, you get a big hit die, and you get rage. If rage doesn't give you REAL HP, just a delay before the damage hits, you aren't getting the protection your class needs. His HP are his armor. Rage should be a way to temporarily boost that armor a few times each day, not a fake-out. "Here's some HP! Woops, not it's not! Nyeh!"
BlaineTog 04-21-05, 09:37 PM	You just gained the ability to ignore damage for a few rounds, which is a much weaker ability.No, it's a nigh worthless ability, as far as the character is concerned. He's going to be the easiest melee type to hit, in most cases.Pssibly, but he's also faster, and can make use of Dex more. DR is not really an issue, since you don't get any for a while, and when you do pick it up it's more of a perk than an actual benefit in combat. One point is nice, but not particularly a lifesaver at seventh level.He has about 5/- by 17th level, which is quite nice.
Keenath 04-21-05, 09:47 PM	No, it's a nigh worthless ability, as far as the character is concerned.Um... I'm not sure I understand. Are you agreeing with me, or is this some sort of strange reverse psychology? :confused: Pssibly, but he's also faster, and can make use of Dex more.Only the Dex is really of issue in a combat. Speed is good, but doesn't determine if you're going to be hit. A barbarian is a front-line melee type. As far as Dex, well, that's true, to some extent. But on the other hand, I'm playing a barbarian with 20 Dex right now. I'm 2nd level, and my AC is 18, which isn't bad; it's about on-level for a front-line melee unit, if unusual in a barbarian (who usually won't roll two 18s). If you're wearing the right armor, your AC will always be in the 18 range (before magic). My AC drops by two when I rage, of course, so I'm giving up some hits there, and as the rules stand, I'm getting no HP to make up for it. He has about 5/- by 17th level, which is quite nice. Of course, by that level, you're often taking hits for 30 or 40-odd damage. It's still only a fraction of the damage dealt, so it really still only works as a perk.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 09:48 PM	A barbarian's rage was never meant to be on all the time at lower levels, you have to delegate your rage much like a caster to delegate their spells. If a caster blows his wod on an encounter hes crap for the rest of the day. In addition, thats one of the reason you should talk to your cleric and giving you status or greater status. Have you ever considered maybe using rage in the middle of the combat instead of the begining?
Keenath 04-21-05, 09:54 PM	I'm sorry, but I honestly don't understand. HP damage is HP damage. It doesn't matter whether I take it before I rage or during the rage. The HP from rage is fake HP; it doesn't benefit me because it goes away in under a minute. I don't WANT to rage all the time, I want rage to give me some real HP that actually absorb damage I would have otherwise taken. What you say is largely true, I just don't understand what it has to do with the topic under discussion.
James Wildspell 04-21-05, 10:33 PM	The easiest way to think about it is this: the rules are written so that the boosted-CON added H.P. are the last lost, but it is most sensible to play it as if they are the first lost. If you are power-gaming the PC, do it the sensible way. If you are truely role-playing it, Rage untill all of your foes are dead, regardless of the consequences. I say, ROCK ON!!!! :fight!:
Kaboth 04-21-05, 10:34 PM	I suggested maybe waiting like 2 to 4 rounds before raging, that might provide you some extra time. I have seen TOO many barbarians die JUSTafter the combat finished and their rage wore off, if they had just waited 2 rounds they would have lived. My question is would you rather have the ability or do without?
q'afuu 04-21-05, 10:39 PM	I don't WANT to rage all the time, I want rage to give me some real HP that actually absorb damage I would have otherwise taken. In other words, you want insta-healing. It simply doesn't make sense to do it this way. Rage is supposed to give you some temporary boosts. When Rage ends, these boosts should consequently go away. If these extra hp from Rage would actually absorb damage, that wouldn't work - the hp boost would be permanent (at least for those hp taken away by damage during Rage).
Manyfist 04-21-05, 10:52 PM	I think Rage should be more like Frenzy... sorta. Getting more out of your rage yet loosing a bit more. To me I think that a high lvl Barb, should be able to shapeshift when raging, into one specific Animal of the same HD. Maybe instead upping the DR, and give Natural AC?
Keenath 04-21-05, 11:02 PM	In other words, you want insta-healing. While I see what you mean, that's not really entirely accurate... I mean, I couldn't rage and end up with MORE HP than I started with. If I rage and gain some temporary HP or something, I can take a hit that I might otherwise not be able to take, but then it goes away and I'm still only at the HP total I was at before. Lower, if the temp HP didn't absorb the hit entirely. I know what you mean, honestly, I just can't balance the mechanics with what a barbarian needs. There are a lot of players who won't play barbarians because they "die too easily".
BlaineTog 04-22-05, 02:03 AM	Um... I'm not sure I understand. Are you agreeing with me, or is this some sort of strange reverse psychology? :confused: Agreeing with you, but taking it a step further. Only the Dex is really of issue in a combat. Speed is good, but doesn't determine if you're going to be hit. A barbarian is a front-line melee type.So? Being able to move twice as fast as a Fighter is a darned powerful ability for a front-line meleer to have. It lets him get to where he needs to be when he needs to be there. It allows him to more quickly attack the enemy, which nets him more attacks. My AC drops by two when I rage, of course, so I'm giving up some hits there, and as the rules stand, I'm getting no HP to make up for it.Yer AC is still a very healthy 16. What's wrong with my idea of letting the Barb be dropped to no lower than -9 when he comes out of a rage? Or did you just miss it? It keeps the classical image of the bezerker dropping after the battle is over, but vastly reduces mortality rates. Of course, by that level, you're often taking hits for 30 or 40-odd damage. It's still only a fraction of the damage dealt, so it really still only works as a perk.Yes, it's only a fraction, but its a fraction for all nonmagical hits. And 5/- isn't even all that small a fraction. That adds up FAST.
Keenath 04-22-05, 08:52 AM	No, I did see your suggestion. That's probably what I'll end up using, or something similar (maybe not drop to -9, but -7 or so, I'll have to mull it over). It's not that I was ignoring you, but there seems to be a much larger contengent that think Barbarians are absolutely fine the way they are, and need no changes whatsoever.
Kaboth 04-22-05, 10:35 AM	One thing I, not the biggest fix in the world, but how about adding the Barbarians total con to his base death cap. I really dont know how to word it exactly but basically if you had a 16 Con, you would not die until -26. However, this bonus would only apply after the Rage has worn off and would only last 1 round for every 5 points of con, but the Barbarian is still fatigued.
Elric Lornhood 04-22-05, 12:40 PM	Why are all these people's barbarians constantly dieing? Ours aren't. You can wear medium armor, use a shield, have the most hp in the game, and DR. A strength boost to let you kill faster that gets better and better. And you're complaining about extra hp that give the cleric a couple extra rounds to get to you and heal you? Remember, you don't have to stop raging when combat ends unless the duration is over. You can just stand there raging, and keep the hp until the healer can get to you. That's an extra survival chance every other class does not have once they drop to negative. Plus, again, you have the best hp in the game on top of that. If all these barbarian rages are ending so quickly as to be killing so many, then I think the players are doing something wrong with their con.'s or rage timing, it's not the character class itself. That's my barbarian-experienced opinion.
q'afuu 04-22-05, 02:05 PM	I know what you mean, honestly, I just can't balance the mechanics with what a barbarian needs. There are a lot of players who won't play barbarians because they "die too easily". It's the most popular class in my D&D group, actually, and IMX they certainly don't die as easily as that. If they do in your group, I suspect that has more to do with the player's (or DM's) style - possibly because they can't wrap their heads around the concept that those hp don't count outside the Rage period. They're still a bonus, despite the limitations. If someone fails to understand the limitations and a character dies as a result of it, it's not uncommon for that person to draw the wrong conclusion ('the class is gimped' as opposed to 'I did something wrong').
unconformist 04-22-05, 04:08 PM	well i should quote some things... but i don't feel like it... anyway... i enjoy playing barbarians for the reason that they are prone to die and kick butt in the meantime... and they do always take diehard... (forgot i had diehard with the one and led to my death at the hands of some stupid undead thing that i didn't even want to go after) but anyway... you say to look at the huge bonus of spellcasting and compare it to rage and you say a spellcaster is better off? yeah... once they use all their spells to make themselves equal in combat prowess to the barbarian... sure... better there... but spellcasters have predominantly a d4... not a d12... spellcasters have horrible bab... barbarians have great bab... and if you do want to make a houserule that takes away the penalty of raging... you better make a houserule about a wizard's hit die... and a houserule about a cleric having to cast only spells to match his diety's alignment... these things are all a part of dnd because of balance... you need to learn balance to play a barbarian... yeah... you get into the mindset of someone totally embracing combat and going at it... but you still have a concept of damage... don't run to the cleric, that wouldn't be IC... you know you're damaged more than you can take normally, you know you'll die when you come out of rage... but you're too busy fighting to go running off to get healed... and that's when the barbarian shows off his wonderful manners; "HEAL ME NOW YOU WORTHLESS MACE-WEILDING CLERIC!" and the cleric either heals you, or yells at you... and if you've got a decent group with you and you tell them how you'll be playing your barbarian... hopefully you'll live... anyway... it's all about the balance... and it's balanced that a barbarian has a chance to die when he comes out of rage... that's my two cents...
Keenath 04-22-05, 09:39 PM	I guess this is where the whole argument goes, eventually. I don't think losing your HP after a rage is really a particular drawback of raging. That is to say, I don't think it SHOULD be. To me, it isn't "trying to remove the big penalty for raging". I don't really see why there should BE a penalty for raging, outside of the AC and fatigue. Like I said before, it's like a hidden penalty; it doesn't jump out immediately, and it's too easy to fall into on accident. I think I'd be pretty happy with a more generic houserule that says, "When a character's Constitution score drops, if the HP loss would reduce that character to -9 hit points or lower, it instead reduces them to -8." That way it covers Barbarians, Bear's Endurance, amulets, and everything else. It's a little time for others to react, but not much, so death is still possible -- just not as likely for a PC.
Phantom Lord 04-22-05, 10:37 PM	Just houserule that barbarians get a Fort save (DC = damage above-and-beyond -10 HP) that lets them stabilize at -9 HP. That's what I would do, anyway. That way you still get to use some of your extra HP without too much inherent danger, yet if you push yourself too much there is a chance you will die. Saying that a barb will always go back to -9 HP basically gives him unlimited HP for the duration of the rage. To exemplify my suggestion, let's take a look at Grell, a level 7 Human Barbarian PC I've been playing for a little while now: He has a Con score of 17 (+3) He can rage for 8 rounds, or 48 seconds When he does rage, he gains 14 temporary HP, for a total of 95 When raging his AC drops to a respectable 16 Anyway, with a Fort save of +9, he can stand to go to -5 HP (-19 HP after losing his Con bonus) with no risk - he will always make the DC 10 Fort save required, and go back to -9 HP after his rage. That seems to be pretty fair and balanced - in the end, he nets a mere 10 bonus HP from his rage; also, when he is that low (while raging) there is a pretty good chance he will be dropped below -5 anyway, at which point he runs the risk of death, so it's not a real huge boost. At higher levels, let's say at level 17: Con score of 20 (+5) Rages for 10 rounds, 1 whole minute Gains 34 HP from his rage. Fort save of +16 He can stand to drop down to 8 HP (-26 HP after losing the Con bonus) before he runs the risk of death. Even then, if he drops to -2 HP there is a 50/50 chance he will recover at the end. And with a more powerful magic item (Grell just has a cloak of resistance +1), he could drop to -7 HP and still have a 50/50 chance to not die at the end of his rage. So it seems to be a pretty effective way to go about things. At least IMHO. EDIT: Oops, forgot to take Greater Rage into account for my HP totals at lvl 17; oh well, I don't feel like doing the math at this point. Suffice it to say that he would effectively gain his Fort Save +1 HP out of his bonus HP as a 'safe zone' in which he could not die - anything beyond that, and his odds slowly get worse (by 5% per HP)
q'afuu 04-22-05, 11:37 PM	To me, it isn't "trying to remove the big penalty for raging". I don't really see why there should BE a penalty for raging, outside of the AC and fatigue. Like I said before, it's like a hidden penalty; it doesn't jump out immediately, and it's too easy to fall into on accident. Whatever makes you think it's a *penalty*, hidden or not? Extra hp are a bonus. A very small one, since they go away, but still a bonus.
Kaboth 04-23-05, 12:07 AM	Albeit not the way it was intended, but you could always use it as a get of jail free card... "oh crap im down to 10 HP and the cleric is WAY over there...!!!" "ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" +20 HP +4 Str and Dex "KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
RogerWilco 04-23-05, 11:43 AM	Why are all these people's barbarians constantly dieing? Ours aren't. You can wear medium armor, use a shield, have the most hp in the game, and DR. A strength boost to let you kill faster that gets better and better. And you're complaining about extra hp that give the cleric a couple extra rounds to get to you and heal you? Remember, you don't have to stop raging when combat ends unless the duration is over. You can just stand there raging, and keep the hp until the healer can get to you. That's an extra survival chance every other class does not have once they drop to negative. Plus, again, you have the best hp in the game on top of that. If all these barbarian rages are ending so quickly as to be killing so many, then I think the players are doing something wrong with their con.'s or rage timing, it's not the character class itself. That's my barbarian-experienced opinion. I aqree with the above poster, and want to emphasize that DnD is a cooperative game, example: The Barbarian is the meat shield, the cleric the healer, the rogue makes sure they get in unnoticed and sneak attacks and the wizard stands in the back and does the blasting. All of them need the other, it's just the way DnD is designed, in the case of the Barbarian it means he's the ultimate melee meat shield for the rest of the party, but needs heals before his rage run's out. Especially with the 3rd edition spontanious healing a cleric can do, that should nearly always be possible, the barbarian just needs to carry around a few healing potions for the few cases the cleric can't come to his aid. The cleric in return should be along side the barbarian as a second line of defence and make it his priority to heal the barbarian, then the barbarian can worry about preventing the enemies to get to the wizard or rogue. In DnD a group is much more powerfull as it's constituents. Have the players in your gaming group understand that it's how DnD is designed. It's why the cleric is the most powerfull class: It's most essential in it's support to the rest of the party.
Horrigan666 04-23-05, 05:28 PM	this ones easy dont play as a barbarian or dont enter rage
Tony Vargas 04-26-05, 08:41 PM	To me, it isn't "trying to remove the big penalty for raging". I don't really see why there should BE a penalty for raging, outside of the AC and fatigue. Like I said before, it's like a hidden penalty; it doesn't jump out immediately, and it's too easy to fall into on accident.If the way it worked were simply spelled out more clearly - or, for that matter, if the CON granted by the barb's rage didn't give you hps at all, just the FORT save and so forth - would that clear up the problem? Another alternative would be to simply give the Barb temporary hps /instead/ of a CON bonus when raging. The hps bonus could be similar - 2 hps per BAB level or something. Temporary hps are probably better for a short-duration power like rage (they can't be healed, but they 'come off the top'), so losing the FORT save and whatnot would probably be about balanced. Of course, the way it works now does make a certain amount of sense. Rage makes you heedless of your own safety (thus the AC penalty), and temporarily stronger and tougher. It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to, in effect, reduce the actual damage you take while raging (temporary hps), it does make sense that you could fight on while taking damage that should (and shortly /will/) kill you.
PsionicMonk 04-27-05, 05:47 AM	All the classes have benefits and drawbacks, its not like the Barbarian class has something unique when dealing with issues about there class. A rogue can die from a poison trap if they mess up, or a caster that tries to cast magic on an item and it explodes as a trap or any number of class related issues. A rogue is going to come across poison more so than any of their party members should they be immune to the poison? I mean +4 to your physical stats is huge, its almost equal to a 6th level spell in its effect (tenser's transformation). When the spell is over it can kill the user of the power too. Rogues at least in all my games seem to have, really no problems with that. And if the rouge gets the trap so do most of the group. In a way magic is in a different lvl than a barbarian rage abilty. Honestly the middle ground in this decsuion is making the 'con incress' Temperory HP, but they dont get the bonus to the fort save from the rage. OR you can make it a fort check to prevent going into - hp. Make it the DC of either the HP lose, or the DC = to the amount of -hp the rage would have gotten him down to. If anything it would put him into a 'heroic' sort of situation. So if he makes his save it would bring him down to 0 and considered disabled, or just knocked out, and if he doesnt make his save then he takes the full amonut of damage, and then dies for [whatever cause it was]