Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 11-09-06, 02:54 PM	So you get angry, turn green and break stuff.... is there any depth to a Barbarian? Have you multi-classed a Barbarian to fill in the huge character black holes?
The_Shaman 11-09-06, 03:03 PM	The barbarian is preternaturally tough, at home with nature, and can be imbued with incredible strength. From then on, it's your call. It needn't be anger - for example, consider an elven barbarian that calls on an animal spirit to give him its strength, dexterity, and stamina. She can be quite composed - when not in a "trance", how she'd call her rage. In other, traditional cultures, the barbarian may be a kind of a holy warrior, using the might of the ancestors to punish their enemies - kind of like a paladin, only in a less regimented society (and with different code of conduct). In a more regimented society, the barbarian may be the "holy fool", blessed (or cursed, some say) by one of the less lawful deities of the pantheon with incredible strength and frenzy (see the comments on the dwarven axefreaks - er, battleragers). The barbarian fills out a more developed role than the fighter, at least because s/he can do more than just serve in the military. At the very least, his skills lean themselves to a good outdoorsman and possibly tracker. For multiclassing, barbarian could work with next to anything, as a column in Dragon once claimed. However, my preferences would be towards cleric or druid for spellcasting (wisdom), ranger for overall flavor and light-armor goodness, and fighter for weapon prowess. The scout or rogue could fit in there too... but I consider them too lightweight (essentially, skirmishers) to mix well with the visceral fighting style of a raging barbarian. Hope that helps. Now go cleave some donkey!
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-09-06, 03:08 PM	Every character is two-dimensional if their class abilities are as far as you take their development. My first character, who ran for about 7 years of real-world time, was a barbarian, never multiclassed. He was also an idealistic teenager, then a no-nonsense young adult, then a jaded middleaged father struggling to raise two children in a world he no longer had any hope for. He was romantic, stubborn, prideful, rash, overconfident, slightly neurotic, and loyal. He feared no man or beast, but collapsed into a useless ball of phobia when forced into a high place. Over the years he developed a very distinct identity, riddled with idiosyncracies and some paradoxes like any real person. I don't think being a barbarian helped or hindered that. It was just the foundation of his mechanical abilities. Edit: He also liked polkas, quietly. Show me that in the barbarian class entry. :P
Tony Vargas 11-09-06, 03:41 PM	The scout or rogue could fit in there too... but I consider them too lightweight (essentially, skirmishers) to mix well with the visceral fighting style of a raging barbarian.I've found that Barb/Rogue works very well, and I suspect it'd be even better for the Scout. The barbarian's unnamed movement bonus is a real boon, and the ability to Rage for some extra melee power when SA or Skirmish isn't an option is a plus, too. Tactically, though, yes, the barbarian is a pretty one-dimensional character: virtually all his abilities focus on high-damage melee. In terms of concepts, the Barbarian is one of the few classes that severely limits build-to-concept if taken at face value (the Paladin is an even bigger offender in this sense). In 2E, the barbarian was a culture-based 'kit' taken at 1st level, and, though it wasn't that well-done, it was still a pretty reasonable idea.
Elemental_Master 11-09-06, 03:44 PM	Barbarians in Viking culture were great warriors who faught like there was no tommarrow because death in battle was their ultimate goal. If they die in battle they go to valhalla. Die at sea they go to another god. If they were nice... They were forced to live a horrible life among flowers! The shame. The cleric is 2 dimensional. He asks his deity to give him spells and he casts them big woop. The wizard is similiar exept he reads.
OneWinged4ngel 11-09-06, 03:50 PM	So you get angry, turn green and break stuff.... is there any depth to a Barbarian? Have you multi-classed a Barbarian to fill in the huge character black holes? If this is how you play a barbarian, your character is two-dimensional. This is entirely the player's fault, not the class's. If even a half-decent roleplayer plays a barbarian, he won't be two-dimensional. That's about all there is to it.
Nitan 11-09-06, 03:55 PM	Barbarians are two dimensional. They fight and can do things outside of fighting. Fighters on the other hand...
THETUNNELRAT 11-09-06, 04:02 PM	If this is how you play a barbarian, your character is two-dimensional. However, if a decent roleplayer plays a barbarian, he won't be two-dimensional. That's about all there is to it. Good point OneWinged4ngel the major problem I see is why roll play I see this on this board all the time. The Player is making PCs based on what kind of special skill etc they have the whole idea of personality development is getting the boot from most new players. :banghead:
malignor 11-09-06, 04:12 PM	My barbarian is... - a child with an unknown heritage who escaped a village razing - the student of a long lost tribe's ways (taught/raised by a ghost sworn to keep their ways alive). Wears tribal tattoos. - an young man of innocent spirit who loves learning about the world, and has a strong sense of justice - an intelligent fellow who plays the fool, but is more intelligent and learned than he usually lets on - a trapper who is just at home living off the land as sleeping in a warm bed - the returning heir to an evil merchant's vast estate (that was haunted) - a figurehead/member of a city council The "2-D" aspect to a barbarian provides alot of room for characters that are more than meets the eye.
Chrono Nexus 11-09-06, 04:16 PM	My barbarian is also a ranger. He's a Lupis (wolf-man race), and his focus is to be a hunter type. He was kidnapped from his homelands by a slave ship, and was shackled up to a half orc (his favored enemy). While they argued at first, they learned to work together, and eventually managed to escape the ship. Any given class is two dimensional. It's up to the player to add the third dimension through role playing.
crowclub 11-09-06, 05:39 PM	I was thinking of taking a level in Cleric for 2 bonus Feats from the Domains Darkness (Blind-Fight) and Time (Improved Initiative). Also this would give a much needed Will save boost and the ability to use Divine wands etc.
crowclub 11-09-06, 05:47 PM	Good point OneWinged4ngel the major problem I see is why roll play I see this on this board all the time. The Player is making PCs based on what kind of special skill etc they have the whole idea of personality development is getting the boot from most new players. :banghead: I think your comments are a little harsh. It really depends on how to got-into D&D or role-playing in general. I come from strategy board game background so it was the combat part of the game that first attracted me. I do struggle with the role-playing side of the game but I do want to get better. I think people like me need ideas from other gamers to build a character background. It just doesn't come naturally for everyone, but that doesn't have to mean I'll just suck at role-playing, at least not for ever ~ I hope !
Zemyla 11-09-06, 05:51 PM	Does a two-dimensional barbarian get to ignore attacks by facing them edge first?
crowclub 11-09-06, 06:34 PM	Does a two-dimensional barbarian get to ignore attacks by facing them edge first? Yes, but doing so provokes an attack of opportunity !
The_Shaman 11-09-06, 07:54 PM	Nah, look at the Einhander combat feat (for flavor, that is, the bonuses are just meh).
bob_the_great 11-09-06, 07:57 PM	I really miss my halfling barbarian. He was a fairly level-headed guy, treated the ladies with respect, and really enjoyed music. Just don't call him "little man"...
pyropetey9 11-09-06, 08:07 PM	There is no such thing as a "two-dimensional class" or an "underpowered class"- there are, however, a disturbing number of two-dimensional, underpowered players out there. Character development isn't always easy, but it is always worth it.
The_Shaman 11-09-06, 08:36 PM	I really miss my halfling barbarian. He was a fairly level-headed guy, treated the ladies with respect, and really enjoyed music. Just don't call him "little man"... What happened to him?
Daxen 11-09-06, 08:36 PM	I think that the Barbarian is an excellent match for the favoured soul class. I do however disagree with the mechanics of the favoured soul. That is a whole other thread though. Favoured Souls should get Domains and a reduced cleric list, all dependant on the specific diety. No particular class is any more or less two dimensional than any other, with the notable exception of the fighter, but only because their skill list is left woefully pigeon-holed. It is all in how you play them.
Rivelstraz 11-09-06, 08:41 PM	There is no such thing as a "two-dimensional class" or an "underpowered class"- there are, however, a disturbing number of two-dimensional, underpowered players out there. Character development isn't always easy, but it is always worth it. Samurais, high level Swashbucklers, etc. disagree with your statement. I'm a huge fan of Conan the Barbarian, so Barbarians never feel two-dimensional for me. The vanir barbarians are so different to cimmerian ones. That alone helps my possible roleplaying.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-09-06, 08:45 PM	BArbarians aren't two dimensional,t hey're one dimensional.
Fox Reeveheart 11-09-06, 08:50 PM	I'll give you a little history lesson Obviously to us we would consider most vikings to be barbarians and barbarians have rage right? well.. the work berserker comes from some vikings that believed that the spirit of the bear would give them superhuman strength. So they would go kill an actual bear and wear its hide (called a saerk, dunno the correct spelling) and they would charge into battle like no tommorrow believing they had this power. Well these guys were called bear saerkers and that word eventually turned into the word berserkers class dismissed =) and yes this info is credible.. THANK YOU HISTORY CHANNEL <3
Salla 11-09-06, 08:51 PM	The last Barbarian I played was, in fact, a 'city boy'. (He had 2 levels of Fighter, coincidentally.) However, when he fought, he relied far more on instinct and emotion and anger (Barbarian Rage) rather than tactical ability (fighter feats). He had an 18 INT and I cross-class-spent almost all of his skill points into Knowledges and Diplomacy. Just because you're a Barbarian doesn't mean you're a barbarian. :)
bob_the_great 11-09-06, 10:59 PM	What happened to him? The DM's class load increased, he took a hiatus, and the game never got picked back up before we graduated. The little guy was last seen fighting arena battles in at attempt to raise money to pay off the crooked town and get that stupid binding spell lifted. That experience was leading him to a renewed respect for combat, eventually deciding it should never be entered lightly or for sport and altogether avoided if possible. Yeah, a halfling barbarian who attempts to resolve conflicts by avoiding combat yet goes berserk if you call him "little." (he'd also go nuts if you messed with his female companion, an elven wizard. She was twice his size but referred to him as something like "my big hero")
Necropolitan 11-09-06, 11:14 PM	I like the concept of an 'Urban Barbarian'. It's quite easy to do, Mechanically you make the same skill-adjustments as the 'Urban Ranger' fix from UA; then play as normal. Themeatically though; it gets fun. Take for an instance, that outlaw biker that rolls into town; he's a bit out of the loop as far as society goes, and he's not all that popular with the typical White-Collar crowd. But he's built like rods from Hell's Own Gate and can put a man's head through a bartop. His strength is fueled by an inner fire, burnin gon Rage, Hatred, pure unadulterated Fury; Perhaps he's been greviously wronged over his lifespan, and channels that hate into a frenzy of pummpelimg, head-splattering wrath, or perhaps he's a cold-blooded, methodtical Masher, a Pit-Fighter who's learned that Pain is your Friend; channeling it makes him hit harder, die harder, and win faster. The Urban Barbarian; stealing your girlfriends and starting abrfights since the invocation of Society.
scienceman47 11-10-06, 12:03 AM	Dragon magazine has a variant for the urban streetbrawler, as well as other nice things.
Delfedd 11-10-06, 12:34 AM	]two-di‧men‧sion‧al  /ˈtudɪˈmɛnʃənl, -daɪ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[too-di-men-shuh-nl, -dahy-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. having the dimensions of height and width only: a two-dimensional surface. 2. (of a work of art) having its elements organized in terms of a flat surface, esp. emphasizing the vertical and horizontal character of the picture plane: the two-dimensional structure of a painting. So yes, in 2 out of 3 interpretations of the word, a barbarian is extremely two dimensional. He is printed on a flat piece of paper, and so has very little area extruding into the third dimension. However, when a player breathes life into it, a barbarian becomes a class full of vibrant life.
Optimator 11-10-06, 12:44 AM	BArbarians aren't two dimensional,t hey're one dimensional. Lawl, that's exactly what I thought when I saw the thread title. Edit: I didn't think the Barb is one-dimensional myself, but I thought that's what the OP probably meant.
Silverthumb128 11-10-06, 01:40 AM	BArbarians aren't two dimensional,t hey're one dimensional. And Psions are four dimensional. Barbarians make great scouts; better, to a degree, than Rangers do. They're faster and tougher, just have less skills and less focus on staying hidden. If they get caught, a Barbarian has a better chance of getting himself to his team, i.e. backup, if the need arises. Take the Track feat, and your meat shield becomes a meat shield with a nose.
The_Shaman 11-10-06, 10:15 AM	Heh, staying hidden is an important part of being a good scout as far as I'm concerned :D. The best scout is a wildshaping ranger (variant) or druid. You see that hawk 100 meters above you? It's kinda like a DC 30 Spot check (300 feet, tiny animal... ok, might be slightly lower, but it's still pretty decent). It sees you perfectly - spot as a class skill, a lot of ranks, and a whooping racial modifier. Anyway, a barb needs nothing more than being tough, agile, somewhat free spirited, and being able to fight like a demon when the mood gets him or her. This leaves you a lot of space for additional details. You might actually make him like a swashbuckler - light weapons, agile and quick fighting style, and popular with everyone s/he meets. The biggest problem the class has, imo, is that it often ends up with poor AC. You can take more pain thanks to your friend the d12 die, but with medium armor, often no shield, and penalty to the AC when raging you tend to get hit every now and then. Other than that... you generally do a fair bit of damage, have a decent skill selection, speed bonus, can't be caught flat-footed... The will save is also a bit of a pain, and could be remedied with a cleric/shaman/druid multiclass, but given the will bonuses you get in a rage, I don't know if you need it. Or just play a half-fey barbarian! Screaming fury of doom with butterfly wings...:rofl: Yeah, baby! (P.S.: in which case, ki shout can be a suprisingly fun and effective ability to augment your martial prowess - not to mention the spell-like abilities you get for a measly +2 LA)
angryscrub 11-10-06, 11:10 AM	Samurais, high level Swashbucklers, etc. disagree with your statement. I'm a huge fan of Conan the Barbarian, so Barbarians never feel two-dimensional for me. The vanir barbarians are so different to cimmerian ones. That alone helps my possible roleplaying. I would just like to second this. Everyone who thinks the barbarian is one dimensional needs to read the original Robert E Howard stories. In fact, everyone needs to. When they originally introduce the barbarian in D&D (pre 3.0) you had to have a minimum charisma of 15 to become one. I wish they had stuck with this theme instead of totally ingoring it in 3.x, but the barbarian can still be a very fun character to play. Of course, they get shafted almost as much as the fighter on the in class skill list, but it is still possible to make a very flavorful barbarian. You can even reproduce Conan, though you would need very excellent ability rolls (or a heroic point buy) and the able learner feat, and anyone who thinks he wouldn't be fun to play needs to get their head checked.
Salla 11-10-06, 12:46 PM	I would just like to second this. Everyone who thinks the barbarian is one dimensional needs to read the original Robert E Howard stories. In fact, everyone needs to. When they originally introduce the barbarian in D&D (pre 3.0) you had to have a minimum charisma of 15 to become one. I wish they had stuck with this theme instead of totally ingoring it in 3.x, but the barbarian can still be a very fun character to play. Of course, they get shafted almost as much as the fighter on the in class skill list, but it is still possible to make a very flavorful barbarian. You can even reproduce Conan, though you would need very excellent ability rolls (or a heroic point buy) and the able learner feat, and anyone who thinks he wouldn't be fun to play needs to get their head checked. More likely, you'd be multiclassing. I found an old set of 1st or 2nd edition (potential) stats for him, and the Multiclassed him as a Fighter with a splash of Rogue and Wizard. Figure Barbarian instead of Fighter, and I'd think that'd be about right.
The_Shaman 11-10-06, 12:52 PM	Wizard? I understand him being fighter with barb and rogue dips, or barb with fighter and rogue, but he knows no magic whatsoevel afaik. Favored soul at most, and even then 1 or 2 levels.
Silverthumb128 11-10-06, 01:35 PM	Heh, staying hidden is an important part of being a good scout as far as I'm concerned :D. Its a matter of personal preference. You don't have to stay hidden, you just have to scout out and retrieve information. The best scout is a wildshaping ranger (variant) or druid. You see that hawk 100 meters above you? It's kinda like a DC 30 Spot check (300 feet, tiny animal... ok, might be slightly lower, but it's still pretty decent). It sees you perfectly - spot as a class skill, a lot of ranks, and a whooping racial modifier. Nobody's asking who the best scout is. Hell, a Divining Wizard is better than that. Barbarians are good scouts, with benefits that Rangers don't enjoy. Repetition is what I strive for. What I strive for.
The_Shaman 11-10-06, 02:23 PM	Hm, to each their own - but I'd consider it a better bet to not be seen at all than to outrun/dodge/defeat whoever's on your back. A barbarian character who comes from a hunter/gatherer culture can have a solid background for a scout, but most groups will have a better option than a single-class barbarian. IMO, of course. Anyway, I'm getting off the topic. A charisma of 15 sounds like a lot, by the way. Did they give any reason for it? It's basically the equivalent of a well-marketed pop-star, perhaps they were inspired by a heavy metal concert :D