Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HavenDan 09-17-07, 06:44 PM	Is barbarian a good offensive meele class, or is it better going with something else? How do barbarians compare to other meele classes? And what are some decent barbarian builds?
Argaud 09-17-07, 07:01 PM	Is barbarian a good offensive meele class, or is it better going with something else? How do barbarians compare to other meele classes? And what are some decent barbarian builds? Barbarian is the best offensive melee class at low level if the character has the Extra Rage feat. After level 4 or so, they have many rivals as meleers, after level 7 they are lagging behind fighters and warblades, and soon paladins start doing better too. Multiclass early is a good idea, a barbarian gets almost all the good stuff at level 1.
LoneFlame 09-17-07, 07:29 PM	That's a load of crap. A Barbarian with Power Attack will stomp most other melee characters. A multi-classed melee guy does have some potential for hurt too, but a straight Barbarian(possibly prestiged into Frenzied Berserker) will dish out some serious hurt.
Argaud 09-17-07, 07:39 PM	That's a load of crap. A Barbarian with Power Attack will stomp most other melee characters. A multi-classed melee guy does have some potential for hurt too, but a straight Barbarian(possibly prestiged into Frenzied Berserker) will dish out some serious hurt. A barbarian power attack is not better than any full bab class power attack, and the barbarian to hit, and therefore potential power attack, is lower than a fighter's from level 8 upwards. Warblades, of course, don't even need to use power attack to do ridiculous amounts of damage. Frenzied Berserker is best done with Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 because of the large number of feats it demands. It is, therefore, more a fighter PrC than a barbarian PrC.
AAB 09-17-07, 09:00 PM	Why does a barbarian have less chance to hit than a fighter after level 8? One would think that the strength bonus from raging would give the barbarian an edge.
LoneFlame 09-17-07, 09:06 PM	Precisely
dman11235 09-17-07, 09:12 PM	The weapon focus tree starts to balance it out, rage stays ahead. The difference is that weapon focus applies all the time, and rage ends.
Nexis 09-17-07, 09:26 PM	The weapon focus tree starts to balance it out, rage stays ahead. The difference is that weapon focus applies all the time, and rage ends. The so called "balancing out" is a pathetic +1, that anyone could take as a feat, and later turns into a HUGE +2 :rolleyes:. As for the rage ending, the rage lasts 3 + the barbarians Con mod, which gets boosted while he rages, meaning its going to be at least 5 rounds before it ends, which is well over how long a fight takes. The designers of the game have come out and said that fights don’t last longer than that. Barbarians are a great class that can do a lot of damage with power attack and easily outclass fighters with the right PrCs, Frenzied berserker is always a fun one. Also, whoever said that Warblades don’t need power attack is dead wrong; their maneuvers do good damage but scale much better when PA is applied to them.
AnonymousInternets 09-17-07, 09:40 PM	Barbarian gets the offensive job done in a straightforward, effective way, and if your party allows it, frenzied berserker will just make it even better. Potentially, it's not as effective as a warblade/swordsage (and Cleric and Druid, but they can do almost everything ;]). It will almost always out-damage a fighter, ranger, or paladin, though it may be a bit lacking in combat adaptability and maneuvers.
Argaud 09-17-07, 09:44 PM	Level 1: Barbarian rage gives him +2 to hit and damage (+3 with a two-handed weapon). Nobody has anything like this, there is no spell, no feat and no maneuver this good at level 1. Nobody can afford heavy armor, so the barbarian AC is as good as anyone else. With the Extra Rage feat the barbarian is the best meleer all the time. Level 4: Fighters have +1 to hit and +2 to damage with their feats. Warblades have level 2 maneuvers, stuff like Emerald Razor and Mountain Hammer, clerics have level 2 spells, including Bull's Strength. The barbarian is still slightly ahead, but the advantage is fading fast. Fighters and clerics have now full plate and are 3-4 of AC ahead. Level 8: Fighters have Weapon Mastery and are +3 to hit and +4 to damage. Clerics have Divine Power. Warblades zing-zap all over the battlefield doing sword-fu and destroying everything in their paths. The barbarian is behind them and will never catch up. He can't even afford mithral fullplate until level 10.
PoorHobo 09-17-07, 09:45 PM	The only times you should play a barbarian is when the entirety of the campaign is played on a flat featureless plane against single enemy encounters that start 60 - 80 feet away or it matches your Character concept. No barb takes weapon focus, feats are too valuable. the Anyone can take it is a bunk argument becasue while anyone can only fighters can realistically afford it. Extra rage is nice if you know the campaign is only at low levels, you intend to dip only, or if your DM allows retraining because at higher levels you won't need 6 - 8 rages a day and your feat is wasted. Warblades are just better. If you have ToB then just play one of those
runestar 09-17-07, 10:13 PM	They are there primarily as a 2-lv dip. I don't understand why they bothered printing the other 18 lvs...:P
AAB 09-17-07, 10:18 PM	Has it been forgotten that at level 11 a barbarian gets greater rage? Or did everyone just forget that since they only dip a couple levels?
dman11235 09-17-07, 10:24 PM	The so called "balancing out" is a pathetic +1, that anyone could take as a feat, and later turns into a HUGE +2 :rolleyes:. As for the rage ending, the rage lasts 3 + the barbarians Con mod, which gets boosted while he rages, meaning its going to be at least 5 rounds before it ends, which is well over how long a fight takes. The designers of the game have come out and said that fights don’t last longer than that. Note how I said that rage stays ahead. Also, calm emotions. I never said that the fighter is better than barbarian, I said that the weapon focus tree (including weapon supremacy, you can get up to +4 attack and +6 damage from that tree, as well as other nice benifits) starts to balance it out. And AAB, I didn't forget, that's why rage stays ahead of the weapon focus tree.
Argaud 09-17-07, 10:42 PM	Has it been forgotten that at level 11 a barbarian gets greater rage? Or did everyone just forget that since they only dip a couple levels? Level 11: Greater rage gives the barbarian a +3 to hit and damage (+4 with a two-hander) the barbarian AC is decent for the first time in ages, thanks to mithral fullplate. But nobody cares, the fighter is +4 to hit and +4 to damage, and will be +6 to damage next level and has two more feats over the barbarian. The cleric might have DMM-Persistent rolling full-throttle (or will have it in one level or two) and even without abusing DMM, he has level 6 spells. The warblade also has mithral fullplate and does not lose 2 of AC in a rage, and he can hit for +35 damage with War Leader's Charge or Rabid Bear Strike, or denying actions to the enemies with Irresistible Mountain Strike, or Pouncing when he charges, among several other tricks. And he can also have Weapon Mastery at this level, getting a +3 to hit and +4 to damage all the time.
runestar 09-17-07, 10:49 PM	Has it been forgotten that at level 11 a barbarian gets greater rage? Or did everyone just forget that since they only dip a couple levels? We didn't forget - that was exactly why we dip, because the improvement to rage is so marginal that it tends to pale in comparison to whatever other bonus we can derive by spending those 9 lvs of barb somewhere else, even if it is on fighter lvs.
dman11235 09-17-07, 10:55 PM	Well put Runestar, that's also the reason (among others) why my barbarian is taking Bear Warrior. I only have 4 barbarian levels.
Edea 09-17-07, 10:55 PM	Barb 1, grab Pounce, switch to Warblade and start taking those Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind maneuvers. Toss in FB or some other source of extra damage at leisure. I think mercury made a rather stunning "Friendly Berserker" build already...
Argaud 09-17-07, 11:00 PM	Barb 1, grab Pounce, switch to Warblade and start taking those Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind maneuvers. Toss in FB or some other source of extra damage at leisure. I think mercury made a rather stunning "Friendly Berserker" build already... That sounds like a good idea. Although I would go light with Diamond Mind, a character can't use Concentration when ragging. White Raven + Tiger Claw + Frenzy, though, looks like a good recipe for mass destruction.
Edea 09-17-07, 11:01 PM	Actually I was thinking more about the movement/extra attack options, those don't require a Concentration check (unlike the Nightmare Blades and saving throw enhancements, those do; the Friendly Berserker I believe uses Cumbrous Will and some other tactics to get the character's Will save freakishly high, so that his save vs. frenzy is virtually guaranteed).
dman11235 09-17-07, 11:21 PM	Actually I don't think a frenzied berserker can initiate maneuvers in a frenzy. They take too much thinky stuff. Not sure, but don't think so.
Keladelros 09-18-07, 01:39 AM	Try coming up with a concept instead of going 'I just want to find which class hurts the most!'.
dman11235 09-18-07, 01:45 AM	Who was that aimed at Keladelros? If it's me, I don't know what you're saying.
Edea 09-18-07, 02:00 AM	I'm pretty sure that was aimed at the OP. Initiating maneuvers doesn't require concentration, but then you get into 'attacking foes to the best of your ability,' and that's a bit "replyhazy" (it's also the reason why said Friendly Berserker build doesn't use Iron Heart Surge in its anti-Frenzy tactics).
dman11235 09-18-07, 02:03 AM	That's right! There is an OP! Yeah, that's what I mean. I'm not sure, but I don't think that while in a frenzy you have the capacity to initiate the maneuvers. They require at least semi-complex moves, but they are also attacking.
The_Shaman 09-18-07, 05:00 AM	Level 8: Fighters have Weapon Mastery and are +3 to hit and +4 to damage. Clerics have Divine Power. Warblades zing-zap all over the battlefield doing sword-fu and destroying everything in their paths. The barbarian is behind them and will never catch up. He can't even afford mithral fullplate until level 10. Right. Mind if I disagree? If you want a better breakdown, Tempest Stormwind once did the math of a barb vs a warblade. Guess what - the barb does quite well. Fighters get a total of +3 to hit, +4 to damage, good. With one weapon, if they choose to specialize in this (otoh, they can spare 3 feats by now). A barbarian with any two-hander gets +2 to hit, +3 to damage: not much of a difference, is there? And from lvl 11 on, he leads the fighter (unless the fighter takes GWF/GWS). As for the warblade, s/he has some fancy stuff, but most maneuvers are standard actions - which means no itirative attacks. They can be more versatile, but in terms of pure damage, well, barbs give them a run for their money. The lion totem (pounce instead of fast movement) makes barbs even nicer, but they don't need it to be viable. And, of course, clerics own other melees. What else is new?
runestar 09-18-07, 06:01 AM	A barbarian with any two-hander gets +2 to hit, +4 to damage +2 to-hit, +3 damage actually. And a barb2/fighter4 gets +3/+5, while a barb2/fighter6 gets +5/+7. Again, the point was not which pure-class fares better, but rather, why there is not much point in going pure barb20 numberswise.
The_Shaman 09-18-07, 06:11 AM	Well, arguably barb 20 makes more sense than fighter 20. Anyway, my bad for the damage callculation, I was thinking about PA tradeoff apparently. Still, in pure offense, I'd say barb is quite viable, even without too many splatbooks (in fact, in core, it packs arguably the strongest punch). As far as PrCs are included, my favourite would probably be the Runescarred Berserker from Unapproachable East. It slows your rage progression somewhat (gets GRage at lvl 10, although as it was in a stage between 3.0 and 3.5, an update might allow it to get more), but between decent barb abilities, something like spells (in a good barb-compatible flavor) and other stuff, I think it's quite viable (say with fighter 4/barb6 before).
Argaud 09-18-07, 07:25 AM	Right. Mind if I disagree? If you want a better breakdown, Tempest Stormwind once did the math of a barb vs a warblade. Guess what - the barb does quite well. Tempest's comparison was only for full-attack damage. The warblade matched the barbarian full attack damage doing just strikes, which are standard actions. But the warblade can do those actions and move, and can do stances too, and counters and boosts. The warblade does not lose AC when raging and the warblade can have the focus/specialization feat chain to increase his to hit and damage even more. It seems clear to me the warblade is going to be better. Fighters get a total of +3 to hit, +4 to damage, good. With one weapon, if they choose to specialize in this (otoh, they can spare 3 feats by now). A barbarian with any two-hander gets +2 to hit, +4 to damage: not much of a difference, is there? Just +3 to damage. And how many weapons uses a barbarian? I am going to tell you how many: ONE. This is true for all warriors, because magical weapons are so expensive. One main weapon and backups for emergencies. A fighter has also one good weapon, and backups of the same kind of weapon, where his feats apply. As added bonus he is not limited to melee weapons and can specialize in ranged weapons. A fighter could also pick different feats, another choice the barbarian does not have, barbarians are only good for melee. But if the fighter is going for heavy melee too, he can have focus/specialization and be better warrior than the barbarian. You say +1, +1 is not much? They rage is not much either and barbarian is not worth anything, since at level 1 it gave just +1, +3 to the barbarian over the fighter, and +1, +1 at level 4. And from lvl 11 on, he leads the fighter (unless the fighter takes GWF/GWS). Again, if the fighter wants to out-class the barbarian, he will take GWF and will already be better at level 9 than the barbarian becomes at 11. And at level 12 the fighter is +4 to hit and +6 to damage, something the barbarian matches only at level 20. The fighter is better in to hit and damage from levels 8 to 19 (12 out of 20 levels) and better in AC all 20 levels (far better from levels 3 to 9).
The_Shaman 09-18-07, 07:42 AM	My bad over the math, as I said. Still, if you'd think that a barb is not an effective offensive character (what the OP asked) to match the fighter - or other classes except for full casters, I can't agree with you.
runestar 09-18-07, 08:10 AM	Tempest's comparison was only for full-attack damage. The warblade matched the barbarian full attack damage doing just strikes, which are standard actions. Actually, I am fairly sure that Tempest's conclusion was that the barb outdamages the warblade a little if the former can consistently get in full-attacks. But this is tempered by the fact that the barb is good for just that, while the warblade has a myriad of other options at his disposal. So in terms of versatility, the warblade still comes out way ahead. But your analysis is still fairly close enough.:)
RobbyPants 09-18-07, 10:55 AM	We didn't forget - that was exactly why we dip, because the improvement to rage is so marginal that it tends to pale in comparison to whatever other bonus we can derive by spending those 9 lvs of barb somewhere else, even if it is on fighter lvs. Exactly. You can always have your cake and eat it too. Take one or two levels of barbarian and climb the Weapon Focus tree with fighter or warblade. Barring character concept, I've never ran a barbarian for more than one level.
HavenDan 09-18-07, 03:09 PM	Hey! I do have a character concept! Krag is a half- orc who once lived among an orcish tribe with other half-orcs. The orcs saw the half- orcs as inferior to them and forced them to undertake in many of the physical labor tasks required to sustain the warriors of the Grimtoof tribe. Krag, the unusually charismatic individual that he is, especially given his birth, was often looked to for help and support by his fellow half-orc brethren. During his time as a “servant” of the orcish tribe, Krag organized a revolt against the orcs in an attempt to usurp control and head the orcish tribe as its chieftain. It took six years for Krag to plan the revolt and it was carried out on his eighteenth birthday. Krag and the resistance of twenty other half-orcs fought valiantly, slaughtering over one hundred of their former masters. However, they proved to be outnumbered greatly and all were subsequently slaughtered including Krag’s childhood friend Gorag and twin brother Korg. Instead of butchering the resistance leader Krag along with all the other members of the coup, Krag was forced into exile bearing the mark of shame. The mark of shame is practically a death sentence to any orc he encounters. The tattoo is a symbol of a battleaxe with two slashes burned into the shamed one’s right forearm. This tattoo is meant to symbolize Krag’s attempt and failure at an overthrow to all orcs and humans throughout the continent. After Krag’s exile, he wandered the continent for approximately four years, searching for work and friendship among both of the races from which he was conceived. However, due to his mark of shame, Krag was never accepted by either humans or orcs and lived a life of eternal wandering. Sometime during these four years, Krag became an alcoholic, using spirits to drown the sorrows of his past and present. Anyways, the point of this post was to see what people's general opinion was on barbarian considering it seemed to fit the archtype of my character and i wanted to know some decent builds for barbarian considering im new to the game. Relative concensis seems to show that barbarian isnt good as a pure class and that i should multiclass as a warblade or fighter. I just wanted to see how i can make my somewhat developed character effective overall. Thanks for all the help:D