Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sanonsuke 10-19-05, 07:11 PM	Does anyone have any builds for a Bard? My friend and I were talking and we came to a realization that no one ever does anything different. So, I decided to make a Bard, but, I don't know if I want to be full Support or Combat oreiented as well. In such, my Combat build is this(We are starting Level Three) 3rd level Bard. Feats are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Weapon Finesse or Focus. My weapon is a whip. So, as you can see, any suggestions for either Combat or Support would be much appreciated.
gorfnad the shiznit 10-19-05, 07:47 PM	If you go with weapon finesse on the whip you might as well get combat reflexes for a feat, this would give you the possibility for many additional attacks. Otherwise look in Complete Adventurer for more bard abilities and combat options.
TheraerTheWanderingBard 10-19-05, 07:48 PM	OOOOOH i love bards....if you want combat stuff, there is the Warchanter PrC from CW. If you want to focus on music, there is the Seeker of the Song (my personal favorite) that rains hell down upon people using its songs. The Virtuoso from CAdv, which isnt all that good, the Sormsinger from Frostburn, now thats a fun class. If you want other stuff, my other personal favorite is the Mindbender from CA, uber mind control is awsome. Thats my :twocents:. there are a bunch of good feats for the bard in CAdv, and if your going combat, Snowflake Wardance is a must (its from frostburn).
TheWinterBard 10-19-05, 08:15 PM	I agree- Seeker of the Song is really a great class. It gives a nice mix of defensive and offensive abilities- finally, bards can blast things! That in and of itself is different, frankly. As for a combat-oriented bard, it can work, but there is a reason that most people don't go for it: bards aren't designed to be combatants. The class is designed to be either a supporter or an enchanter-type, which is as offensive as it really gets. The medium BAB just doesn't truly compare to a fighter's; it's more for when the bard needs to fight in a pinch or can't do much else. Perhaps that's just my take on it; if anyone has an example to contradict, I'd love to hear it! But if you really want to go for a combat-oriented bard character, then perhaps supplement your bard levels with a few in the fighter class. If you want to avoid multiclassing, then prestige classing seems a better bet; apparently, there are some good ones in CW. Still, seekers are great...
Arkonth 10-19-05, 08:24 PM	The most fun I ever ahd with a bard was my VOP, diplomatic, whip-wielding, disarming terror. He was a ***** to hit thanks to displacement and blur and mirror image, and was generally really fun, this sort of crazy guy, who despised hurting theings and insisted ghe was protecting the villains from themselves when he stole their weapons and sent them into stupors with suggestions. (Stare at that wall until it moves-my favorite suggestion ever.)
TheDarknessWithin 10-19-05, 08:29 PM	I personally like the idea of a bard warchanter mix. Especially if you have the full ten levels of warchanter and leadership. I also prefer the warchanter with a good fighter or barbarian in the party because the warchanters class abilities complement a barbarians typical style of play pretty well. Especailly with the reckless song they get a level 3 i think. This song allows for great power attacking by anyone possesing a decent armor class and who is willing to take some damage in return. If you do happen to have a barabarian in the party because coupling the barbarian with the frenzied berserker prc, and a bard warchanter will have game breaking results.
Rocketboy13 10-19-05, 10:01 PM	The best way to look for a build is to look at the prerequisites for a very focused prestiege class that relates to the bard class. Complete adventurer gives you plenty of those, plus some interesting feats for the music abilities. Complete Warrior gives you the War Chanter which is a warrior bard, that uses music to help direct attacks.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-19-05, 10:17 PM	The absolutely best feat for a melee Bard is Arcane Strike. Sacrifice a daily use of a spell and gain +1 to hit and +1d4 damage per level of spell sacrificed. As Bards have the best BAB for an Arcane user, the bonus to hit comes in very handy. Fortunately, the extra damage is also wonderful. The fighter and I deal about the same amount of damage (and he uses a double bladed sword versus my longsword). In a melee build, I prefer damage to finese. I agree in taking Combat Expertise, but not improved trip. It is a strength based skill which means you will have to focus your point buy on it. As the CR rating go up, so does the size of your opponents (giants for example). If you go with a moderate Dex and Str (+1 to +2 bonus) you can still be an effective melee character. I have a 12 str with my build. I took Improved Inititive, Combat Expertise, Craft Arms and Armor (gets me better weapons faster), Arcane Strike, and Ironskin Chant. I took enough ranks in Tumble so I can avoid the attack of opportunity against reach characters. My spells focus on either raising my chance to hit, healing, or use as prerequisite to enchanting. Example: Summon Monster 1. It allows me to craft Bane Weapons (very useful for our archer, in 8 days I can make +1 Dragonbane arrows), can be used as a flanker, and can be used as a wasted attack of opportunity. Personally, I like using it to set of traps.
TheDarknessWithin 10-19-05, 10:50 PM	Well I think it really applies to the rolls that you get were you want to go with the build. I once tried a strength based build picking up that feat from improved arcane that allows for you to cast while in armor. It worked out pretty well and I eventually went into the warchanter picking up a few levels of fighter before I went in. I would personally go with the warchanter prc depending on your party makeup.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-20-05, 12:15 AM	well i think it really applies to the rolls that you get were you want to go with the build. I once tried a strength based build picking up that feat from improved arcane that allows for you to cast while in armor. It worked out pretty well and I eventually went into the warchanter picking up a few levels of fighter before i went in. I would personally go with the warchanter prc depending on your party makeup. With Arcane Strike, doing anything that gets rid of your spells will ultimately weaken you as a melee character. Imagine........ 3 attack, BAB 15 Str 12 (18 with belt of strength +6), +5 weapon (with craft arms and armor), Haste, and Good Hope (or heroism since the duration is much longer or Snowsong +4 morale bonus to hit at 10 min per level). With just the above 15 +4 +5 +1 +2 gives you a total of 27 this menas you attack at 27/27/22/17 while under the effect of Haste. Now lets burn a 6th level spell. Now you get 33/33/28/23. Not bad for a bard. Now let's look at damage. Let's say you are using a spear (or longsword or morningstar) for 1d8 damage. 1d8 +4 for str +5 for enhancement (we could add +2 for good hope) So the damage is 1d8 +9 until we use Arcane Strike. Every hit gets 6d4 extra damage. So if all 4 attacks hit, that is 4d8 +36 +24d4 for an adverage damage value of 114. All that without a critical which is why I recommend the Longsword be you primary weapon. It gets worse if you had Holy or Bane or elemental damage added to your weapon. Example Weapons: Cold Iron Longsword - Holy - Evil Outsider Bane - Sacred (from Liber Mortis 2d6 damage to evil outsiders and 1d6 damage to undead) Adamantine Morningstar - Holy - Undead Bane - Construct Bane The Cold Iron Longsword would deal an extra 6d6 damage versus evil outsiders per hit plus 2 to hit and damage. This means an adverage damage add of 23 points per hit. With 4 hits, you would deal an extra adverage damage of 92 points. 114 + 92 = 206 How is that for one round of full attacks? So, I hope you can see why you DO NOT want to multiclass or take a prestege class. The prestege class will lower your BAB by one with the exception of Warshaper. In that case you lose spells to power your Arcane Strike (as well as all the neat things Bard spells can do).
legophreak 10-20-05, 03:17 AM	The Virtuoso from CAdv, which isnt all that good The 3.0 Virtuoso from Song and Silence is much better.....at least i thought so
CaoSlayer 10-20-05, 04:02 AM	The 3.0 Virtuoso from Song and Silence is much better.....at least i thought so was broken by the loop of allowing you to raise wizard or sorcerer caster levels, a bard 3/wizard 2/virtuoso 10/ spellsinger 5 was able to cast level 9 spells while keeping almost every bard feature (he was like a wizard 17-bard18) --------- Warchanter it is a prc that requires to be used nicely to NOT be a bard, at least not a lot clasical bardic style. you can be a very efective warchanter ever with lousy charisma since boost songs arent affected at all by charisma. so you could get just one level of bard the rest of fighter, barbarian or ranger and you will be able to sing while wearing full plate mail and having a charisma of 8. Ummm, IMO the warchanter synergies the best with the rogue, a rogue fighting along with a warchanter can have this bab bumped by +5, meaning one extra attack and more chances to land sneak attack, combined with reckless song he will never miss a sneak attack while being as easy to hit as always. Another complete winner bard combo it is the one from CAdv. that included devoted performer allowing to multiclass bard and paladin getting bardic music and smite attack with both classes... And trust me that cant be anything as fearsome as an exalted paladin 4/bard 16 using at all once: inspire courage (VoP +6 to hit and damage), inspire greatness (+4 to hit and 4d10+con*4 hp), arcane strike (+5 to hit +5d4 to damage), smite evil (+cha bonus to hit +20 to damage), divine might (+charisma bonus to hit and damage) and leap attack or greater two weapon fighting.
Saytr 10-20-05, 05:31 AM	It's a little boring but think about Improved toughness. It's +1 hp per level and makes you an effective d8, a d6 is very low for a melee type, if that's what you're going for. No casting neat spells and stylishly disarming people with whips if you run out of hit points. A bard can be a very effective combatant and annoyingly tough to hit but consider: Round one- You run into a trio of ogres. You cast mirror image. Round two- You start singing Round three- You rush forward into battle to see the barbarian sink his greataxe into the last ogre. Battle over. Point is, by the time you finish all the buffing the fight is usually half over. One of the most overlooked bard spells is Alter Self. A +6 natural armor bonus by changing into a trog (I think). Getting hit on a 16 instead of a 10 is a huge difference and at 10 min/level you can cast it before you walk into trouble. I think there's an obscure feat that lets you add +1 to your inspire bonuses, anyone know where it is? If you can get that, take it. It's amazing how much damage those little +1's and +2's can add up to.
CaoSlayer 10-20-05, 08:20 AM	I think there's an obscure feat that lets you add +1 to your inspire bonuses, anyone know where it is? If you can get that, take it. It's amazing how much damage those little +1's and +2's can add up to. song of the heart of something like that from EberronCS. At level 3 or level 2 human: Song of the heart + war drums + Words of Creation + some CAdv spell = +4 to hit and +5 damage inspire courage.
eggplantm 10-20-05, 11:48 AM	Some favorite feats for bards #1 Quick Draw: Why? because the bard is almost constantly switching from instrument to weapon to wand to scroll to do all the many things he needs to do in one combat encounter. If your DM does not require you to spend a move action to get a different item ready (he should) this feat is unnecessary, but if he uses the rules as written, this is a good feat for bards and rogues Other faves: Improved trip and combat expertise both help the bard to avoid harm. Lingering song kicks butt more than extra music as later on you have plenty of uses per day, you just need them to last longer. I've seen mediocre bards that did some fighting but the best focused on helping out the rest of the party. Sing to inspire courage every time, heal as needed, buff with spells like haste and fill in as support in any other areas with the large number of wands and scrolls you are carrying around. The bard will never stand out as the most powerful member of the party by killing a monster in one shot but the class always makes almost any encounter easier. In my current campaign I've seen a bard do all the following in one encounter: heal 2+ party members disarm opponent dispel dangerous magic inspire courage haste the entire party Hit a high knowledge check to tell us the weaknesses and tactics of the monster we were facing. The encounter without the bard would have been a nightmare and there might have been casualties in the party. with the bard, it was relatively quick and painless.
syntaxerror37 10-20-05, 01:10 PM	If you are going a multiclass approach, a build that worked for me was a bard/ranger build. Do note that this is a very MAD charater, and I wouldn't atempt to play it with a point buy system (we always roll our stats, and I'm fairly lucky). This is a quite versitial, though definetly not a power build (in fact it will make powergamers heads explode when you mention it.). The main thing it exploits is, A bard can ignore arcane spell failure in light armor. Light armor is the most a ranger can wear and retain use of his combat style. Its a nice synergy there. Throw in a few well-chosen feats and maybe a PrC (several good ones have already been mentioned) and you could get a fairly decent combat bard.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-20-05, 03:05 PM	It's a little boring but think about Improved toughness. It's +1 hp per level and makes you an effective d8, a d6 is very low for a melee type, if that's what you're going for. No casting neat spells and stylishly disarming people with whips if you run out of hit points. Actually, it is a very nice feat for a melee bard. A bard can be a very effective combatant and annoyingly tough to hit but consider: Round one- You run into a trio of ogres. You cast mirror image. Round two- You start singing Round three- You rush forward into battle to see the barbarian sink his greataxe into the last ogre. Battle over. Point is, by the time you finish all the buffing the fight is usually half over. I think you are losing sight of the melee bardwhile acknowledging it below. For a melee bard to be successful, they must focus on their spells as well as their skills/feats. Most of the Bard's choices in spells should be buff spells with a long duration (so you can get more than one use from them). Below you mention Alter self. I would mention Heroism. Between these two spells you get +2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and +6 to AC (as a trog). Both spells last 10 min per level. Both spells can have their duration extended with a Rod of Extend (Lesser) for the cost of 3k. So at 4th level when you can cast one spell (I think it is 4th level), the duration would be 40 minutes (80 min with a Rod of Extend Lesser). Once combat occurs, you will activate ONE song and move into melee range or activate one song and wait for the creature to move to you. I usually like to wait for them to move to me because if they charge I get an extra +2 to hit. So pre combat, cast Heroism. (This should make your ability to hit be similar to the Fighter's.) First Round of Combat, Inspire Courage. Every Round thereafter, attack. By the time you get your 3rd level spells, you will probably be Extending the duration of Good Hope. It effects the entire party. +2 attack, damage, saves, and skill checks. This makes it better than Inspire Courage and has a longer duration. Haste can be taken at the same level, but won't be practical to use until you have more 3rd level spells to be cast per day. The shorter duration would mean you would get less use from it (since you know it will only last one combat). One of the most overlooked bard spells is Alter Self. A +6 natural armor bonus by changing into a trog (I think). Getting hit on a 16 instead of a 10 is a huge difference and at 10 min/level you can cast it before you walk into trouble. I think there's an obscure feat that lets you add +1 to your inspire bonuses, anyone know where it is? If you can get that, take it. It's amazing how much damage those little +1's and +2's can add up to. There is also a spell from Complete Adventurer that gives +1 bonus to Inspire Courage.
Balkazar 10-20-05, 03:41 PM	Im not sure where I read it at.....I think it was in the book of Exalted deeds....that turns a Rogues Sneak attack of d6...into a d8 So Im not much of a player for the Bard....But taking into acct that rogue may be quite interesting to play specially if you multiclass to a bard......is to take That feat....and turn the SA d6...into a SA d8...... I may be going off on what this thread is for....but I thought I would jump in and note that :) So a rogue 4 or 5, bard, PRC that allows you to increase your spells power may be interesting.....Specially if the PRC increases your spell casting...like a mage+Mage of the arcane Order......It increases your spell power and it also bumps it up to where you can cast a 20d6 fireball even if you are 15th lvl or something....... I may be wrong.....
TheDarknessWithin 10-20-05, 06:32 PM	Im not sure where I read it at.....I think it was in the book of Exalted deeds....that turns a Rogues Sneak attack of d6...into a d8 The feat you are talking about is in fact from the BOED and is quite good if you happen to be going up against evil outsiders otherwise its pretty useless. This feat turns your sneak attack d6's into d8's against evil outsiders, and you also have to be exatled to gain access to the feat. Back on topic, I think that a straight bard could be useful as well. (It seems like people are getting the idea that i like warchanter prc a little too much.) I just really think any of the aforementioned PRC's can be good its just a matter of the general party makeup and what the party needs.