Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 10-25-05, 11:06 PM	Has anyone ever played a Bard in a small party, say 2-3 characters? I'm about to, in a party of two, with a Ranger/Fighter starting at level 7. Whilst any advice is welcome, I'm particularly interested in those people who have actually played a Bard in a small group, rather than the pure theorists... no offense to those theorists out there! I'd like to hear what issues you faced and how you dealt with them. I don't want to hear 'don't play a Bard' please, I want the challenge of making this work and as a 'Roleplayer' I really want to give this class a try. Two party issues... No Cleric, and I don't want to take healing spells, so we intend to wing it with healing potions... No Rogue, but I intend to try and fill in there in one way or another. My thoughts thus far... I want to play a Human. I'm happy to multiclass but I want to keep the concept of the Bard intact, so I'd like to avoid distinct classes like Druid, Monk and Paladin etc. I was probally thinking of a level or two in fighter for feats and access to all weapons and level in Rogue (for trapfinding and max skill ranks in Rogue Skills) or Leadership and a Rogue cohort. I'm not too keen on any of the Bardic PCs... or Psionics. Possible feats include Song of the Heart, Lingering Song, Improved Buckler, Combat Expertise and 1 or more of the subsequent 'improved' tree. I'm going to try and have a broad range of skills (around 4 ranks each), maxing out (or close to) Tumble, Concentration and Perform. If I do take a level in Rogue I'll take the feats Able Learner and improved Feint and max (or close to) Bluff, Search, Disable & Open Lock. Spells will focus on combat enhancement + a few generally useful 'all rounders' like Fly. I'll need to me at least moderately effective in melee as I don't have a party to hide behind with ranged weapons. I'll probally stick to a 2 hand weapon for max damage and a hand free for casting, but I was considering the possibility of 2WF with a double weapon or using a Spiked Chain. Once again any advice would be great, but particlualry from the no doubt small pool of folk who've walked this path before.
FlameLover 10-25-05, 11:56 PM	I havn't personally played a Bard in a small groupc but i'm DMing a group with only 3 players and a Bard so i feel i can give some advice ;) First off be warned that you'll be *alot* weaker than your friend and your friend will probably be annoyed with you for choosing a Bard. Why? Because an effective Bard needs plenty of allies to hear his music. Now i'm not trying to discourage you here - just stating what i've seen happen. Focus on buffs aimed at 1 or a few people. I know you don't want to take healing spells but i really reccoment getting a healing spell of 2, 4 and 6th level. That's only 3 spells away from your Spells Known list and it'll save your life so many times. Besides that don't take any levels in Fighter - unless you use lots of PrCs it won't work too great. Instead i'd try mutliclassing with Rogue a few levels to get some SA and trap-finding stuff. I'd recommend a Crossbow as weapon and use Strength as a dump stat. You should stick outa melee and with a low Str you can boost Cha and Dex more (the two important stats for a Bard). Now i'd recommend half Rogue/half Bard. Your spells and music won't be too flash but they wouldn't help you much anyway with only 1 team mate. I'd focus on your Sneak Attack and try and get feats like Arcane Strike to lay the smack down even more. And finally make sure to max out Use Magic Device - it'll allow you to be a full-blown caster in power with enough gold. Plus - since UMD is a class skill for both Brds and Rogs it means you can max it easily. I'd reccomend taking Skill Focus (UMD) even instead of PErform, max Perform but really focus on UMD. That'll make you usefull and distinct from the Ranger.
Vaelan 10-26-05, 01:53 AM	I played a Bard in a group of three. The party consisted of a Ranger, Monk, and myself. We only played at lower levels, but I contributed to the party by making sure that nothing we fought hurt us very much. My first two feats were Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. Characters with d8 hitdice greatly appreciate the fact that the orcs they're fighting are using daggers or their bare hands instead of battleaxes. When my whip was a poor choice, such as when we fought creatures with natural weapons, I would use my spells and class abilities to set up optimal conditions for battle and contribute with my shortbow or rapier. If I could set it up so that the TWFing Ranger and the flurrying Monk would both get full attacks from flanking positions, the battles ended quite quickly. Since we lacked healing to some degree, we avoided as many encounters as possible so that we could actually accomplish our goals within a decent amount of time. Obviously a Bard was quite useful in this regard. Overall, I think Bards work best in extremely small groups. They can fulfill a number of roles, which allows the party to take advantage of more situations, which is necessary when playing in a small group.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 10-26-05, 10:15 PM	Its actually good to see two differnt opinions, gives me plenty to think about... if there's more out there, keep the ideas coming. Thanks guys.
atlatyl 10-29-05, 10:55 AM	I'm playing a bard in a small party now...actually working up to fochlucan lyrist. Here's what you need to think about: ** bards are a stat and skill intensive build. Low con and dex mean a dead bard. High charisma and good intel are essential. 1. Wand of healing is a must if you don't have an NPC cleric coming along 2. Song enhancers are a must: inspirational boost(1st lvl spell from CAV) and take Song of the heart at third lvl. 3. Take flaws to max your feats at first lvl: Bards are a skill based class and the more feats you have, the better off you'll be.
runestar 10-29-05, 12:57 PM	Well, you will probably want to max out UMD to be able to reliably use wiz/clr spell items. Perhaps get a familiar via the acquire familiar feat to get a scout/spy? If you focus on summon monster spells, they can provide more allies as the targets of your bardic music.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-01-05, 05:37 PM	I'm playing a bard in a small party now...actually working up to fochlucan lyrist. Thanks Atlatyly... I'm interested what classes you're playing with, and how you contribute to combat?
john_bakken 11-01-05, 05:46 PM	Try looking in Unearthed Arcana for the Human Paragon class. It is only 3 levels, will let you pick up any 1 weapon you want, bonus feat, bonus ability, some spellcasting levels added, and nice skill usage. I really like the ability this class gives that allows you to choose any 1 skill and make it a class skill always.
atlatyl 11-01-05, 07:05 PM	Thanks Atlatyly... I'm interested what classes you're playing with, and how you contribute to combat? First, there's a lot more to the Lyrist than combat...you are: -- trap monkey and all around door unlocker -- The negotiator to sell the loot (note: diplomacy and suggestion are your friends) In social situations you gather information, find a local guide, negotiate prices for "jobs", etc. -- saving the party a fair amount of time and in general, making life more interesting for the party...somebody make fun of your wizard's robe? sitire them with a song...lots of stuff to do here. Second: your bab thru about 8th lvl is going to suck: it does get better though. Combat -- round one: inspire courage round two: buff -- haste/good hope/whatever round three: mirror image (or other defensive spell) round four: tumble in and flank-attack Caution: Don't go into combat with some added defense: this build doesn't have the hit points for it.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-01-05, 08:38 PM	I was giving serious consideration to the Human Paragon, but after doing a few 'test builds' found that a few levels in Fighter and/or Rogue actually made a stronger character (in my opinion) for what I want to do. Can't say I like the FL, not interested in any Divine classes, or any other PrC really. The Bard PrC's tend to have very late class level aquisition with generally uninspiring compensatory abilities. I very much like the Sublime Cord but that has too demanding skill pre-req's. I'd love to see a combatative Bardic PrC that maintains a bit of spell casting and Bardic Abilities... nothing in the 'Complete' series fits that bill for my liking. But that's OK, I'm really interested in combining core classes for best effect.
Keenath 11-01-05, 11:20 PM	A small-party bard is a totally different build from a large-party bard. A large-party bard is at his best when singing songs of valor, giving the most people possible the benefits of his song. In a large party, there is virtually always a blaster-caster and two or more good meleeists (generally a full-BAB class and a rogue or monk), so the bard's primary duty is interpersonal skills and buffs, both in spellcasting and in song. A bard built on these lines is terrible in a small party, because his songs just don't do much and his buffs don't have enough targets for their full impact. Now, as a small-party bard, what you're focusing on is generality. Sounds like you have a good scout-tank already, so no need to worry about hiding or fighting. What he's going to need from you is backup. The mesh of abilities is going to depend somewhat on what the other player's feats look like. However, here's a few strong suggestions: * Weild a whip. You can make trips from outside melee or from flanking position, which your friend will love, and whips are melee, so they don't count for "firing into melee" penalties. Get Improved Trip at the earliest opportunity and have fun with it. Try a two-hit combo attack: from melee range (preferably flanking), use the whip to make a trip attack. In your other hand, you hold your rapier, which you use for the Improved Trip followup attack. Note that this does not cause TWF penalties. * Try to be decent in a fight. You don't have all that many spells per day, so try to scrape together a decent STR score or a feat for Finesse. You don't have to be a killer, just good enough to help out. * Help out. It's only AC 10 to give an assist to your friend. If you're flanking as well, that's a +4 to the next attack roll he makes -- not bad. * Look at Complete Adventurer's bard feats. They have a couple for spending music uses for more focused, but more powerful effects. For example, Ironskin Chant lets you expend a bardic music use as a SWIFT ACTION to give one ally (or yourself) DR 5/- until next turn. Another lets you burn bardic music to cast extra spells. Many of your songs aren't at their best in a small group -- Inspire Courage is a pretty small bonus if only two people benefit, and you're the skill monkey of the group, so Inspire Competence won't see much use. Use feats to get unusual options and give you more chances to take advantage of your prime class ability. (I particularly like that Ironskin Chant, because it's swift, so you can do that and still take a full turn of actions.) Remember, if you go to bed with a music use left, you're not using it enough. * Select buff spells that target one or two. Your limited spell selection is a big factor in what sort of character you end up with. Buffs should be on the order of Bull's Strength, Blur, and Invisibility; spells like Good Hope derive much of their power from the ability to affect lots of targets. Haste is going to look very attractive, but it's not a good choice! It's made to affect lots of people. Better to spend cash on items that give you haste-like effects (such as boots of speed or a weapon of speed) and select a spell with fewer targets and better effects, like Heroism or Blink. (Heroism and its Greater are, by the way, great for a small party bard. Heroism is a level lower than Good Hope, and does nearly everything Good Hope does, but for ten times longer. The fact that it targets a single creatures is irrelevant to a small-party bard.) * Pick offense spells that help your friend. You'll need offensive spells that can hamper groups of foes, allowing your buddy to take them on one at a time. Sleep, Grease, Scare, Glitterdust, Confusion, and Slow are all good choices for offense. Also get some single-target debuffs for those tough guys and bosses. Consider a spell-storing weapon that can deliver one of those debuffs with an attack. Or for that matter, get your BUDDY a spell-storing weapon. A fighter with a sword that can targetted-dispel his opponent has an advantage. * Consider utility spells carefully. As a small-party bard, you want a decent mix of offense, buff, and tool magic, but the latter can often be stored in items. Don't spend a precious spell slot on a spell you may need only a few times. Rather, buy wands or scrolls of such spells (depending on how often you foresee a need). Since utility spells generally don't involve saves anyway, the low saves of spell-storage items is not a factor. And remember that between Song of Freedom and Countersong, you shouldn't need to take any anti-enchanter spells. * You know more spells than you can cast. Related to the previous point. Unlike a sorcerer, a bard doesn't have the uses per day to keep up with his spells known. Feel free to take spells that give you options. It's okay to take a spell you won't use every day, so long as you'll probably use it every two or three days. In your case, you'll probably want to select spells that keep your options open between buffs, debuffs (such as fear effects), and trickery (manipulative enchantment and illusions). * Pay attention to UMD. Use Magic Device means you can keep wands or scrolls of plenty of utility-spells and have a decent chance of activating, as long as time isn't too much of an issue. A wand of knock means never worrying about your lack of Open Lock ranks, for example. Scrolls are harder to deal with than wands, though cheaper. Of course, five ranks of Spellcraft and five ranks of Decipher Script work out to a +4 on scroll-related UMD rolls, so that can mitigate the difficulty. * Get wands of CLW. You can use the wand even if you don't know the spell; it's still on your class list. A wand of CLW is the cheapest magical healing available, at 2.72 GP per HP -- no other item is as efficient. While I'd keep a few potions for emergencies (preferably more powerful spells than CLW), they cost many times as much as a wand, and are not a good use of your gold. Also, try to get on the good side of the local clerics for free healing when you're in town. Hope that helps!
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-01-05, 11:56 PM	Good advice Keenath. Will look at a lot of that stuff... I've got good ablilities; +3, 3X +2 & 2X +1, so I'm going to be able to support casting, combat and music with some balance. I was thinking of the trip tactic, with either Improved Trip (not ranged but more flexible with what I can be using) or a Spiked Chain. I thought about TWF, but I don't want to have to sheathe my weapon mid combat for casting. Only problem with the whip/rapier (or any melee weapon) combo is, whilst it doesn't incur 2WF penalties, it does suffer the offhand penalty (possibly balanced by being a touch attack) Keep it coming guys, great ideas.
agent_paper 11-02-05, 04:04 AM	Okay, first, I've never been a bard before (well, not yet anyway) - but I have played in small parties frequently, and I have played with bards before, so I'll see if I can remember the bard-advice those players gave to me. One question - just out of curiosity, why don't you want to learn healing spells? That was actually going to be my first suggestion (to learn healing spells, that is) :P. Now, if you put the maximum number of ranks in Use Magic Device, you could probably get by in a small party with wands of cure wounds or by purchasing scrolls (if that is an option). That makes sense, but I was wondering if you had any special reasons. In my experience (with classes similar to bard, and with small parties in general), having multiple ways to heal is often a good idea. Again, just speaking from experience, it's nice to have each character (even if it is only two or three characters) be able to heal a little bit. In my current campaign, we have a cleric, a sorcer/favored soul/mystic theurge, a psychic warrior, as well as a fire shugenja (who can't heal), and the healing that the three of us contribute is rather a luxury in my eyes. If your teammate is a ranger (at least partially) he will probably have a trick or two up his sleeve to that effect . . . My general advice about bards (really any character that is capable of extensive use of enchantments, illusions, or telepathy) is that seeking non-violent ways to solve (or avoid) conflicts can be invaluable, especially if your group is small. And in combat, the spell dominate person is a real gem in my mind, as not only does it reduce your enemies' number by one (temporarily), but increases your own forces by one. That's extremely efficient (obviously, it isn't useful if the targets in question aren't humanoid). You may be able to use suggestions and charms to cause dangerous foes to flee, or put them in situations in which they are less dangerous. In my experiences, suggestions were one of my primary weapons for a good part of the game, and bards are very good with suggestions. Summon monster might also be a good choice, as just having a third body there to attract attention from enemies could be a potential lifesaver. If you are considering multiclassing at all, I suggest perhaps adding a few levels of swashbuckler. Even only three levels could increase your proficiency with whip/rapier tactics, and reduce your dependency on Strength (via Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike, which emphasize ability scores you already want to be as high as possible). The additional hit points from a d10 wouldn't be unwelcome either, I'm sure. Skills I've seen used to great effect in battle include Jump, Bluff, and Tumble. If memory serves, using Tumble to approach a hostile NPC prevents the attack of opportunity, should you ever be in a situation in which you are placed near an enemy. Maybe you could think about building a bard that makes good use of Feinting. High skill points and a high charisma could make it a viable tactic. I agree with the other comments already made. Familiarize yourself with a whip; try to be clever in battle, and be prepared should you ever have to rely on force; choose spells that help make your small party size a positive rather than a negative; focus on Use magic Device, as it is a superbly useful skill and can greatly enlarge your capabilities. Though I generally agree with everything Keenath says, and she/he seems quite experience with bards, I'm not sure if haste is entirely a bad idea. The increase to speed and the extra move action it grants could be a boon in some circumstances. Then again, you be the judge of whether or not such circumstances concern you. I also advocate perusing the bardic feats in the Complete Adventurer. Lyric Spell and Ironskin Chant could be especially useful (depending on what kind of focus you decide the character should have). A few other feats worth looking at are Green Ear, Extra Music, Lingering Song, Subsonics, Quick Reconnoiter, and Jack of All trades.
Keenath 11-02-05, 08:54 AM	Only problem with the whip/rapier (or any melee weapon) combo is, whilst it doesn't incur 2WF penalties, it does suffer the offhand penalty (possibly balanced by being a touch attack)I'm not sure what you mean by offhand penalties. There are only ever penalties for attacking with an offhand if you are using Two-Weapon Fighting, and in that case the penalties are large unless you take the feat. If you can explain the issue more clearly, I'll respond, but I'm pretty sure this technique takes no penalties on either attack. The FAQ clarifies this: "There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or with the same kind of weapon." You can mix in attacks with both your primary and off-hand weapon in a full attack, and you don't take TWF penalties as long as you don't take any more attacks than your BAB allows. Oh, wait -- are you talking about the reduced strength bonus to damage? That's a common misunderstanding. You can declare any hand you want to be "primary" during a turn -- if you want, you can attack with the dagger in your left hand all day long and never take a penalty to your damage. The whip attack would get a damage penalty if you actually dealt damage with it, but you're making a trip attack, and there's no rule that your trip attack gets weaker for using an offhand weapon for it.
Keenath 11-02-05, 09:01 AM	Now, if you put the maximum number of ranks in Use Magic Device, you could probably get by in a small party with wands of cure wounds or by purchasing scrolls (if that is an option).You don't need UMD to do this. CLW is on the bard's class list, if not his spells known, but class list is all that is required to activate a wand without using UMD. Though I generally agree with everything Keenath says, and she/he seems quite experience with bards, I'm not sure if haste is entirely a bad idea. The increase to speed and the extra move action it grants could be a boon in some circumstances. Then again, you be the judge of whether or not such circumstances concern you.He, thanks. :D I've found that 3.5 Haste is not an efficient use of an action in a small party. 3.0 Haste, oh heck yes. Most powerful spell in the game. But the updated version is only so-so when applied to two people. Like I say, there are plenty of other ways to get a bonus attack, and the added AC is really nothing to get excited about; the bonus speed is the only other important aspect of the spell. Weapons of Speed aren't expensive, so I tend to feel that they're a better selection than spending a spell slot on Haste.
HighlandsTraveller 11-02-05, 09:34 AM	I spent 5 levels in a game with 3 people, although it was in 3.0 and the DM was quite lenient. I think if he was harder I would have been dead on several occasions due to low hp's. Who's your DM, how big is he on tough combats, and how much of the campaign is going to be skill based or role playing? Combat -- round one: inspire courage round two: buff -- haste/good hope/whatever round three: mirror image (or other defensive spell) round four: tumble in and flank-attack This is an example of what works in larger parties, but not in smaller groups? Its a hard choice though since thats the bard's main thing. Inspire courage is only good because it effects everyone who hears it, but I'm not even sure if its worth building up with only 2 people and a delay to getting the +2 at 8th level. Maybe with the cohort added in and inspirational boost + heart song feat it might be worth singing first. If you spend levels on rogue I think you need to use those fighting as soon as he can. Basically, you've lowered the payoff of inspire courage and strengthened the payoff of your taking a full attack. Lingering song is overrated btw, better to get the harmonize spell out of Races of Stone. Snowflake wardance (Frostburn) is probably the perfect feat for a 2 weapon bard. Use those bard songs for immediate payoff. Leadership is, obviously, the best feat you can get. Its a nearly +50% increase in your party's power level! I would figure out what your cohort is going to be, and then work out your bard build from there. I'd say either a cleric, druid, or rogue would fill in the gaps the most in your case. If you don't go with a rogue then your bard will pick up 1 or 3 levels of the class. And this isn't a very safe, or optimal build in any way. If you go with some fighter levels it will help with the low fort save and hit points, but there will be very little bard left. Might want to check out the warchanter in Complete Warrior, but rogue wouldn't mesh with that well. Arcane strike is good, but you won't get 3rd level spells for a long while, and will have so few of them that its probably not worth it. How bout this: 3 rogue / 9 bard / 1 exo wpn mstr / bard x 1 exo wpn: double blade sword 1 2 wpn fighting 3 improved toughness 6 leadership 9 snowflake wardance 12 wpn foc 15 improved buckler ? or switch out imp toughness and this although spells can fix your AC, and you don't have anything like false life ... Its not optimal, but its doable and it sounds like what you want. 1 level of exotic weapn master reduces your 2 wpn penalty to -1, and so I think is the best 1 level of a fighting class you can get. The double weapon, however, removes the weapon finesse option. This will spread your abilities even more, but in some ways its okay because you do need to do damage as much as you need AC. Replace improved toughness with able learner if you feel brave. I'd just cast mirror image or alter self at the beginning of combat and forget about inspire courage. Strange as it is to say that, but you have to be ready to be on the frontlines in 1 round. Combat expertise is great for itself, but don't mess around with the other stuff. Feint and no 2 weapon attack. Trip and disarm require higher strength and BAB than you have. They are great tricks when you use a whip behind the fighter, but you will not have that luxury. On UMD - its overrated. Put 1 point in it to be able to try it. At 7th level with max ranks, skill foc: UMD, and 18 charisma you will have a + 17 which means you will still have 15% chance of failure on 1st level spells. Unless you don't have the wisdom for divine spells in which case its worse. You can already use cure light wands as a bard and with 1 rank in UMD and no feats burned you can get most other wands to work for you outside of combat. Either go with tumble (most likely) or concentration, not both, you don't have the skills points. Remember knowledge (history) for the +2 bard knowledge. The other option was to have a rogue cohort. Being at least 2 levels below yours, it would almost have to be a fighter / rogue. A gnome would be even tougher, especially with titan fighting feat from Races of Stone, and it would be a fit for a heavier armed character that has a side interest in things mechanical (open locks, disable device). AC, hp's, and trap skills in one lower level cohort. Then you go straight bard with all the inspire courage buffs. I'd say go with the spell focuses in enchantment to boot, but you don't want to go sublime chord. So, go archery. Solid damage, and don't need to spend feats on defense. Bard 2 / figher 1 / bard 8 /fighter 1 / bard x 1 song of heart 1 point blank shot fighter 1 precise shot 3 rapid shot 6 leadership fighter 2 many shot 9 improved rapid shot 12 lyrical spell
atlatyl 11-02-05, 10:39 AM	Combat -- round one: inspire courage round two: buff -- haste/good hope/whatever round three: mirror image (or other defensive spell) round four: tumble in and flank-attack This is an example of what works in larger parties, but not in smaller groups? Its a hard choice though since thats the bard's main thing. Inspire courage is only good because it effects everyone who hears it, but I'm not even sure if its worth building up with only 2 people and a delay to getting the +2 at 8th level. Maybe with the cohort added in and inspirational boost + heart song feat it might be worth singing first. If you spend levels on rogue I think you need to use those fighting as soon as he can. Basically, you've lowered the payoff of inspire courage and strengthened the payoff of your taking a full attack. Lingering song is overrated btw, better to get the harmonize spell out of Races of Stone. Snowflake wardance (Frostburn) is probably the perfect feat for a 2 weapon bard. Use those bard songs for immediate payoff. OK, I am seeing two things here -- on one hand you say that inspire courage doesn't work well for a small groups but you conclude with maximizing songs for immediate payoff -- which is it? ...and if songs are not the way to go for a bard in a small group, what's your recommendation? Also, how is snowflake wardance superior to inspire courage? consider that SW gives Cha bonus to hit (no extra damage) and FATIGUE after combat -- and it only impacts the bard. Inspire courage with words of creation and song of the heart gives +6 to hit AND DAMAGE at 8th lvl -- +8 if you use inspirational boost (or +7 +7 for both bard and fighter if your DM rules that IB can't double with a feat). ...and at 8th lvl, what better way is there to get an extra attack per round (with minor bonuses) than haste?
CaoSlayer 11-02-05, 10:47 AM	OK, I am seeing two things here -- on one hand you say that inspire courage doesn't work well for a small groups but you conclude with maximizing songs for immediate payoff -- which is it? ...and if songs are not the way to go for a bard in a small group, what's your recommendation? My recomendation it is to turn a small group into a big one, that it if there is a summoner (or pet monkey aka druid), you and/or someone else takes leadership and finally you use charm person + diplomacy or dominate person to hire a "cohort" you can turn a 3 person group into an army where the bardic music can turn useless fodder into a mayor trouble to the bbeg.
Keenath 11-02-05, 11:44 AM	I spent 5 levels in a game with 3 people, although it was in 3.0 and the DM was quite lenient. I think if he was harder I would have been dead on several occasions due to low hp's.This is definitely a weak point of the bard, and something I forgot to mention. Consider taking a couple levels of fighter for the HP, but this may not be the best choice -- it's only worth +2 HP per level, weakens your magic and music, and if you make Fighter your first level pick (for the full HD), you give up the large number of skill points a bard gets at 1st level. This is one of the reasons for focusing on whip use -- it means you can make melee attacks without getting too close to anything that can hurt you. Combat -- round one: inspire courage round two: buff -- haste/good hope/whatever round three: mirror image (or other defensive spell) round four: tumble in and flank-attack In a small party, it might work better in this sort of design (but feel free to change this to fit your party's tactics)... First, consider the situation. Do you have time to buff before melee fighting starts, or is it a surprise encounter? The two will have different tactics. If you have time to prepare: Hit your buddy with targetted buffs, preferably ones that have at least 1 minute/level duration, before battle starts. Save the really short-duration buffs (1 round/level) for when combat is imminent, as in the turn before you kick in the door or the turn (or perhaps two turns) before the enemy closes to melee range. Your friend may be making ranged attacks during this time; that's fine. Just so you have breathing room. When it looks like melee is about to start, use a move action to get in position, then ready an action to whip-trip when somebody moves into melee with the fighter. The next turn, whether your trip worked or not, hit the strongest enemy with a debuff, or use an area debuff like Scare to scatter or incapacitate the minions (reducing the number of attacks your team will take). Even if you aren't adjacent, the Improve Trip feat will let you have a great trip check, and a free whip attack might be useful. (See Trip Tactics, below.) The reason I suggest a readied trip BEFORE debuff magic is simple: You can often use the range of the whip to stop charges, Spring Attacks, and other such tactics, thus reducing the number of hits you'll take. If there are no tasty trip-targets, such as if you're fighting particularly large, strong, or stable creatures, skip the trip and go straight to magic. If you're dealing with a lot of weaker creatures, forego the trip and lead off with formation-breaking magic. Grease is a GREAT one for stopping groups; even if only half the targets fall down, you're making it much harder to set up flanking and group tactics. Fear and sleep effects are the same way; if you can get a fraction of the enemy's number to flee or fall unconscious, you don't have to deal with them all at once. If you're surprised: If combat starts without much warning, you won't have time to do lots of buffing. In this case, you have to use your judgement, but my favorite tactic is Round 1: trip, Round 2: buff, Round 3: attacks or offensive spells. If nothing looks like a good trip target, skip right to a buff in round 1. Note that when I say buff, I'm also referring to bardic music. This is where that Ironskin Chant comes in handy; you can use it as a swift action and still trip or cast spells. Trip tactics: This is important! Don't just trip the first goofball that gets in range. Save it for somebody that your fighter will really benefit from having on the floor. If somebody's charging, use it on them to kill their charge. If there's a big guy involved, minions or no, he's probably the one you want to save your trip for (unless he's the sort that stands back and lets the minions/spells soften you up). All else being equal, trip the guy with the best armor. The +4 for attacking a prone target will help your fighter buddy get past the high AC. By the way, I recant my earlier suggestion that you make a whip attack from melee range. I forgot that whips provoke AOOs. But if you have Improved Trip, just use your leg anyway. Remember that a whip counts as a melee attack. If you make a successful trip, you get a free whip attack on them even if you're too far away to make an effective lethal attack. You aren't required to use the whip to deal damage with this free attack! Make a disarm attack, Indy; he can't AOO you from ten feet away, and warriors are rarely so intimidating without a weapon.
CaoSlayer 11-02-05, 11:55 AM	by the way, I didnt noticed it, but since it is a 3.0 game, I have to say: abuse haste to death, it is a spell than turns an arcane caster into two arcane casters, being able to cast two hold persons in a round it is a very nice thing. On the other way, there are some great long duration buffers like bullīs str and catīs grace, they last hours and make stat bosters items useless...
Blas de Lezo 11-02-05, 12:02 PM	abuse haste to death :rofl: You'll run your DM crazy. Good advices though. Darkness is also a good 3.0 spell. As for feats, 3.0 Improved Feint is absolutely broken, it's great even for characters with no sneak attack.
HighlandsTraveller 11-02-05, 06:39 PM	OK, I am seeing two things here -- on one hand you say that inspire courage doesn't work well for a small groups but you conclude with maximizing songs for immediate payoff -- which is it? ...and if songs are not the way to go for a bard in a small group, what's your recommendation? Also, how is snowflake wardance superior to inspire courage? consider that SW gives Cha bonus to hit (no extra damage) and FATIGUE after combat -- and it only impacts the bard. Inspire courage with words of creation and song of the heart gives +6 to hit AND DAMAGE at 8th lvl -- +8 if you use inspirational boost (or +7 +7 for both bard and fighter if your DM rules that IB can't double with a feat). ...and at 8th lvl, what better way is there to get an extra attack per round (with minor bonuses) than haste? Well, I am rambling a bit here, but the problem is that while maxing buffs like inspire courage is what the bard is best at, in a small party that isn't as effective and its even less effective if he is going to take levels in other classes like rogue and fighter. If your DM lets in words of creation and allows it to double bonuses to the inspire courage ability, it is a no brainer. Snowflake wardance is a free action to use IIRC. The point here is that in a smaller party you can't buff for 3 rounds while the bad guys beat on you, you need to be the party's offense immediately. Using haste when 3 other melee types are instantly better is one thing, but compare the extra attack you get for 4 rounds compared to 5 rounds of you and one other guy attacking the monsters. Weapons or boots of speed look like a better deal.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-02-05, 09:07 PM	Just to clarrify, I'm playing 3.5... I don't want healing spells purely because I want to spend the few slots I've got on other spells. My 'partner' refuses to play a cleric or any other healer (his Ranger level will be quite low) and whilst I'm happy to pull up the rogue slack with a level or Leadership, I'm going to be playing the jack of all trades in so many other areas, I don't want to dilute myself further with healing. YES, I know healing is important, if not key, but using a wand or potions isn't that much differnt to using CLW the traditional way... I hope! I've looked at SW before without any inspiration, but now I can see it's potential. With a high Charisma bonus and Perform skill, you can dish out the hits for much longer than most combats will last... kind of like a mini rage. Good with Extra Music... have to find a good one hand slashing weapon... Keenath No offhand penalty? Maybe I'm suffering a 3.0 hang over, but I thought I read recently that there's a -4 offhand penalty. Makes sense... I can't find any mention of it in the 3.5 PHB. I couldn't find that quote in the FAQ... what page is it? The exert you've used there doesn't actually seem to negate the possibilty of an offhand penalty, just state that you CAN attack with your offhand. Not wanting to get off track with an Offhand debate, I'd just love to read the article... if you could direct me that would be great! I did think about the whip a while back, still not convinced, but I'll give it some more thought... still prefer to leave a hand free, or use a 2Hander... With 2 people I'll be straight into melee very quickly, so ranged attacks are out and Buffs will need to be swift or limited. That's why IC is so great... I can still sing while fighting and keep the bonus up. And I'm not sure I understand the concept that a bonus to hit and damage is somehow less useful to a small group... if anything it's MORE important... we'll have to make every hit count and every point on top of our BAB is going to matter. Atlatyl Just curious, how did you get +6 with IC at level 8. Base is +2, SOTH makes that +3, InspBoost +4... must be Words of Creation... where can I find that, it sounds familiar? Anyway, thanks agin ALL for great ideas... keep em coming!
agent_paper 11-02-05, 09:27 PM	You don't need UMD to do this. CLW is on the bard's class list, if not his spells known, but class list is all that is required to activate a wand without using UMD. Well, that's true. I meant to imply that UMD would allow use of magic that a bard wouldn't have access to for this purpose as well - such as scrolls of heal or restoration. As an afterthought, one might not even worry that much about non-bard spells. He, thanks. :D I've found that 3.5 Haste is not an efficient use of an action in a small party. 3.0 Haste, oh heck yes. Most powerful spell in the game. But the updated version is only so-so when applied to two people. Like I say, there are plenty of other ways to get a bonus attack, and the added AC is really nothing to get excited about; the bonus speed is the only other important aspect of the spell. Weapons of Speed aren't expensive, so I tend to feel that they're a better selection than spending a spell slot on Haste. Ah, well, I just read the description for haste, and I was under the misapprehension that it granted an additional move action per round (which it does not, it merely increases move speed by up to double). Now that I reexamine it, I think I agree with you.
CommanderFalken 11-02-05, 09:28 PM	I agree with all of the above. I suggest the Bard/Swashbuckler with the whip. It helps to get abilities that use the skills that your bard already needs (int and Dex). So this is helpful. However, carry a whip and a whip-dagger. Whip-daggers are whips that deal 1d6 slashing damage instead of the regular. Also, you aren't limited to the +1 Armor/ +3 Natural that is a regular whip's no. 1 weakness. Even bettr, you can switch between the two at will- it says to treat the whip-dagger as a whip.
atlatyl 11-02-05, 10:44 PM	Atlatyl Just curious, how did you get +6 with IC at level 8. Base is +2, SOTH makes that +3, InspBoost +4... must be Words of Creation... where can I find that, it sounds familiar? Anyway, thanks agin ALL for great ideas... keep em coming! Words of Creation is in the Book of Exalted Deeds...it does more than just double inspire courage too: it adds bonuses to all your songs plus +4 facinate, +2 suggestion...good stuff )
agent_paper 11-02-05, 10:44 PM	Gandal, do you think your DM would consider allowing gestalt characters? It might be perfect for a party of two. Just in case you aren't aware, gestalt characters is a variant in Unearthed Arcana that allows you to effectively be two classes at a time (but not multiclass). For instance, your other party member could be, instead of a fighter 4/ranger 3 (just an example), he could be fighter 7/ranger 7, and still only be a 7th level character. He'd pick the best of what each class offered each level (best BAB, best saves, best hit die, so on), as well as gaining the class features, feats, and spells of both classes. The variant is well suited to very small parties that really need to have more options. If it was allowed, then you could be, say, bard/rogue, or bard/swashbuckler, or something of the kind, to fill whatever role you think the two of you need most.
Keenath 11-03-05, 11:58 AM	No offhand penalty? Maybe I'm suffering a 3.0 hang over, but I thought I read recently that there's a -4 offhand penalty. Makes sense... I can't find any mention of it in the 3.5 PHB. I couldn't find that quote in the FAQ... what page is it? That's in a new answer in the latest FAQ (Oct. 20th), on page 17, in the right column. The question is actually regarding attacking with one weapon, then quickdrawing another and attacking with it, but the point is more generally true. My understanding of the rules is that you never take an offhand attack penalty unless you use two-weapon fighting to gain an extra attack. I think you still take a damage penalty, though -- offhand weapons always deal half your str bonus. Either way, it's irrelevant, because I forgot when I wrote that post that using a while while threatened provokes AOOs, just like shooting a bow. Forget that suggestion; if you're in melee and have Improved Trip, just trip with your leg like normal. With 2 people I'll be straight into melee very quickly, so ranged attacks are out and Buffs will need to be swift or limited. That's why IC is so great... I can still sing while fighting and keep the bonus up. This depends somewhat on encounter ranges, but yeah. I would tend to stay directly behind the fighter at first, so that he can (hopefully) block and give you one or two turns more before you're threatened. And a whip means you can trip from back there... And I'm not sure I understand the concept that a bonus to hit and damage is somehow less useful to a small group... if anything it's MORE important... we'll have to make every hit count and every point on top of our BAB is going to matter.It's a force multiplication issue. If you have five people, that's plenty of attacks every turn that are getting bonuses. Spending an action to give two people +1 isn't nearly as good as spending that same action to provide +1 bonuses to five or six. That same action could've been used, say, casting a spell to give a much better bonus to the primary fighter, so it's just not an effective use of your time to do bardic music when only one other person is going to hear it. Put another way: The power of an area effect is to hit more than one target at a time. The game is balanced to take that into account. If you hit only one target with, say, a fireball, you aren't getting the most benefit out of it. Bardic music is the same; if you don't have a big group to provide benefits to, it's usually better to go with another option -- either an attack that will help kill them NOW instead of helping kill them LATER, or a combat action that makes your friend more effective (like a trip) or spellcasting and tactical movement that will help keep your buddy from being overwhelmed.
CaoSlayer 11-03-05, 12:07 PM	still, the bard have two battle songs that are good for a single target, inspire greatness and heroics... if you are using splatbooks, then the bardic musics feat that grant you DR 5/- for a round per bardic music use it is a nice one, on the other side there is other than allow you to exchange bardic music into spells or the bardic metamagic, the extend one it is pretty nice.
Telperien 11-03-05, 01:42 PM	I am currently playing a bard in a small/moderate group. It is a great class. Two necessary feats: Song of the Heart, and Dragonsong. Find everything you can to max the buffs from songs. Best race I have found is an Aasimar. The plus to cha is mandatory. Also alter self works great as an outsider. You get many great forms with wings, burrowing, swimming. And if you need to fight, those forms are better then yours. Have multiple cure wands and have your party buy them. If you are getting injured it is because you are healing them. Max the rogue skills: sleight of hand, bluff, diplomacy, etc. My bard will sing for one round, then heal for four rounds, then start singing again. It is highly effective and helpful to the others
Keenath 11-03-05, 02:09 PM	I am currently playing a bard in a small/moderate group. It is a great class. Two necessary feats: Song of the Heart, and Dragonsong. Find everything you can to max the buffs from songs.But you had to spend two to three feats to do it... and it's still not as good as that same combo would've been with five or six other PCs around you. I tend to feel that you're better off with something like Ironskin Chant that gives an immediate benefit with only a single feat spent. But hey, it's your character!
atlatyl 11-03-05, 05:18 PM	But you had to spend two to three feats to do it... and it's still not as good as that same combo would've been with five or six other PCs around you. I tend to feel that you're better off with something like Ironskin Chant that gives an immediate benefit with only a single feat spent. But hey, it's your character! um, *ANY* group buff is more effective with larger groups. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to use in a smaller group. I'm playing a bard now and I'm not sure that 5 points of damage reduction is worth one use of bardic music until the beginning of my next turn when I have to use yet another bardic music use to get DR5 for one member of my party. Also, Ironskin chant can't be taken until 9th lvl. That same use of bardic music used for inspire courage (with inspirational boost (1st lvl spell from CAV), song of the heart and words of creation) gives +8 +8 to the bard and anyone else grouped with him/her. So if the question at hand is +8 +8 or DR5, I know where I'm going to put my effort. Yeah I gotta burn two feats to get there but then I have the best buffs in the game after that )
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-07-05, 08:45 PM	Just following up on the ever popular choice of whips for Bards.... here and elsewhere... How I didn't find this earlier I don't know... but I looked up 'off hand' in the Glossary of the PHB and offhand attacks do indeed incur a penalty of -4... I knew it was in there somewhere, strange though, that it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else except as part of TWF! This together with the fact that it can rarely be used to damage anybody (or at least anyone with +1 Armour or +3 Natural) or threaten within it's range & attracts AOO & 1d3 damage means I'll probally be looking for another tool... I do love the idea of Improved Disarm particularly when combined it with a Greatsword (or simalar heavy weapon) and Buckler... that way I can make a touch attack, followed by a +4 (for being prone) free follow up attack... will involve at least one level in a combatative class, but I think I'm happy to do that now.
Keenath 11-07-05, 09:40 PM	How I didn't find this earlier I don't know... but I looked up 'off hand' in the Glossary of the PHB and offhand attacks do indeed incur a penalty of -4... I knew it was in there somewhere, strange though, that it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else except as part of TWF!I'm pretty sure that's only referring to TWF penalties... whatever penalty you take on your first hand, the offhand penalty is 4 worse (unless you take the TWF feat).
Schmendrick 11-08-05, 01:07 AM	Gandal, do you think your DM would consider allowing gestalt characters? It might be perfect for a party of two. If not, then you should try to at least get him to use fractional bonuses; it makes multiclassing hurt a lot less. While we're on the subject of multiclassing, why not suggest that your Rgr/Ftr friend take a few levels of Rogue (say, 4)? It gives the party trapfinding, gives him Sneak Attack (which is never a bad thing) and Uncanny Dodge -- handy in a small party where you're likely to be outnumbered (read: flanked) a lot, and only costs him +1 BAB and 5-10 HP (depending on the exact build). Given your description, he's got Fighter as a favored class, so keeping Rog and Rgr equal shouldn't cause multiclass problems. He's got Search as a class skill for Ranger, so shouldn't have as hard a time as you might keeping all the roguely skills at useable levels, and it frees you to take something else (or else take rogue as well; two sneak attackers used properly can be all you need to win many combats). As for prestige classes for you, if you need BAB you should consider some Eldritch Knight. The boost to Fortitude saves can't hurt (as it's a weak one for the bard), and it's one of the "dual-class" prestige classes, and as such not particularly flavor-laden (which means it's suitable for almost any build). More on the "objectionable flavor in the name" front, especially if you're considering the Eldritch Knight suggestion and not taking any Rogue: consider Barbarian instead of Fighter for the "all martial weapons" qualification. Less feats, but the improved movement and uncanny dodge will help a lot. 5 levels sits you with Improved Uncanny Dodge, but that might be too many levels for you - though the HP is nice; d6 can really hurt in the front lines). Barbarian offers less of a skill point hit than Fighter. No, I've not played a bard in a small party before - but I am a bard player, so hopefully my advice isn't 100% worthless. :)
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-08-05, 01:17 AM	Fair enough... For my group though, (and for reference here in this thread) we'll be using the offhand penalty. The text there in the glossary seems to be pretty straight forward in support of a standard -4 regardless of TWF.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-08-05, 01:22 AM	No, I've not played a bard in a small party before - but I am a bard player, so hopefully my advice isn't 100% worthless. :) Ha... sorry, not trying to be snobby, just trying to avoid a lot of 'guess work', always interetsed in the opinions of any Bard player, small group or not... thanks Shmendrick. I WAS considering Barbarian/Bard for a while actually, they really work well together... but it doesn't sit well with the final (roleplaying) concept of the character I want to make... good idea though!
tiercel 11-08-05, 02:50 AM	Couple of points about Words of Creation: -- needs a fairly significant Int score. It's hardly terrible to have a good Int as a bard, but, that's a significant investment. -- it is an Exalted feat. Personally, I like my bards a little rascally... plus more generally, staying Exalted makes a paladin code-of-conduct look like a walk in the park... plus, once you invoke BoED, you are implicitly telling your DM it's cool with you if he uses BoVD. As for healing, I don't think it's worth heavily investing a bard into healing. On the other hand, I would say at some point it is arguably worth making one of your first level picks cure light wounds (not necessarily right away). Why? If you have unused spell slots at the end of the day, and are resting a secure location, you can turn every one of them into healing. Sure, d8+5 healing isn't the best use of a 3rd level bard slot, but it is better than not using that slot at all at the end of the day. UMD is awfully nice. It lets you use any scroll, wand, or staff you loot from an enemy spellcaster. If you want to be a little cheesy, a wand of vigor, lesser (Complete Divine) is better than cure light wounds for out-of-combat healing, but requires UMD. Having UMD means you can have handy non-bard utility scrolls at your fingertips -- cure status ailments, ability damage, be able to teleport or just use that tasty looted staff of fire. Think of UMD as the "Batman effect" -- always the right tool for the job.
eagleye 11-08-05, 03:14 AM	Some tips on how to play a full bard, without having to splash other classes to gain their benefits: 1/ Play an elf: # Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. # +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. If you're happy with those weapons, you don't take a level of fighter. Being an elf also grants you a little detecting ability. You can't detect traps, but you can detect hidden doors. 2/ Play a dwarf: # Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. # Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. You don't gain access to new weapons (them being treated as martial) but you do gain the ability to detect stone and stonelike traps. 3/ Is there a special reason you do not want to take heal spells? It doesn't seem to me it would hurt your party. Also high Int might do you very good, spending some ranks in different skills you would take as a rogue.
Schmendrick 11-08-05, 03:34 AM	Ha... sorry, not trying to be snobby, just trying to avoid a lot of 'guess work', always interetsed in the opinions of any Bard player, small group or not... thanks Shmendrick. I WAS considering Barbarian/Bard for a while actually, they really work well together... but it doesn't sit well with the final (roleplaying) concept of the character I want to make... good idea though! It would probably help everybody if you gave us a good idea of the roleplay concept you're shooting for; that way we don't waste your time with suggestions headed in the opposite direction.
Quirriff 11-08-05, 05:41 AM	Some tips on how to play a full bard, without having to splash other classes to gain their benefits: 1/ Play an elf: # Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. # +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. If you're happy with those weapons, you don't take a level of fighter. Being an elf also grants you a little detecting ability. You can't detect traps, but you can detect hidden doors. Half-Elves are also good bards, although they only have +1 to search spot and listen, and no bonus proficiencies, they get +2 to diplomacy and gather information, Skills a bard would be expected to Max out.
Keenath 11-08-05, 09:19 AM	If you want to be a little cheesy, a wand of vigor, lesser (Complete Divine) is better than cure light wounds for out-of-combat healing, but requires UMD.That's a good point, except that it can be DM-dependent on whether he lets you just buy up wands of spells from a Complete book. But, yeah, 11 HP per shot of Lesser Vigor is quite a bit better than the average 5.5 from a CLW wand. Twice as good, as a matter of fact.
Keenath 11-08-05, 09:25 AM	1/ Play an elf: # Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.A bard already has rapier, longsword, and shortbow on his list. All you're gaining is longbow proficiency, which isn't worth much to a class that usually has better things to do with magic or buffs than shooting arrows. (And if you do start shooting arrows, the shortbow is nearly as good...) Besides, I agree with Quirriff -- half-elves are nearly purpose-built for bards. Bonuses to bluff and diplomacy? I'll take that! An elf really makes a better rogue than anything else, due to both the secret door thing (since rogues usually have search maxed out anyway) and the Dexterity benefit. The only thing they lack is small size, which has big benefits of its own in terms of a huge Hide bonus and attack/defense bonuses... and a rogue gets most of his damage from Sneak Attack, which doesn't care what size your weapons are.
atlatyl 11-08-05, 09:55 AM	A bard already has rapier, longsword, and shortbow on his list. All you're gaining is longbow proficiency, which isn't worth much to a class that usually has better things to do with magic or buffs than shooting arrows. (And if you do start shooting arrows, the shortbow is nearly as good...) Besides, I agree with Quirriff -- half-elves are nearly purpose-built for bards. Bonuses to bluff and diplomacy? I'll take that! If you're going half-elf, think hard about Marshall for first level -- you get skill focus diplomacy and motivate charisma (doubles your charisma bonus) and as a half elf, you can switch out your countersong ability for "soothing voice" (think it's in savage species...) that gives you an AE calm emotions ability and the DC is your diplomacy check.
meabolex 11-08-05, 01:23 PM	Your team consists of a single ranger/fighter combination which probably is about TWF. That means that he won't have the defensive focus of some sword/board builds, so he'll be taking more damage. You might want to reconsider the loss of healing spells in that case. I'd say at least a healing spell at some level at first or later should be appropriate. You should never rely on gear for healing unless you have no other choice since consumables have a tendency to get destroyed, taken away, and generally run out. Furthermore, cures are flexible in that they can give a quick blast of damage to a tough undead if they're at an appropriately high spell level. If you're focusing on combat enhancements, you won't need a high charisma except to get your bonus spells. Since you sound more combat-oriented, you'll probably need to pump Constitution with gear and base stats and keep Charisma high enough to cast the spells you need. I'd invest in remove fear, delay poison, and feather fall. For a second level spell, alter self is perhaps the most powerful self-buff combat spell in the game for its level. Your DM may soon hate/resent the troglodyte. At level 7 using 25 point buy, I'd put 15 in Charisma base and add the level 4 stat point to 16 to get your 3rd level bonus spell. The premiere 3rd level combat enhancement for a two person group is displacement (since it can go on you or the melee type). Haste is probably not as optimal for your small group. Please note that fly isn't a spell on the bard's spell list. Don't bother with bardic music feats or specialized combat styles. Plan on getting generic things like Improved Toughness, Improved Initiative, and other feats that are applicable in virtually every combat. For instance, Great Fortitude is an ideal feat for a bard due to the low Fortitude saves bards typically have. The choice of Combat Expertise and an "Improved" feat is quite specialized (most MM monsters cannot be disarmed, for example) and you might want to reconsider picking that and Combat Expertise up. If you must go the Combat Expertise route, you'll probably want to consider Improved Disarm and pumping strength. You could pump Dexterity and use Weapon Finesse, but it's probably not worth blowing a feat to do that. Bards are given whip proficiency which make for excellent disarming weapons, but keep a spear around so you can disarm in melee as necessary.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 11-08-05, 08:19 PM	The concept I suppose is a kind of rogueish travelling Bard, who can look after himself regardless of the circumstances and pursues bold endeavours in order to write stirring tales. Kind of a little bit like Madmardigan (Willow), or Matt Cuthron (Wheel of Time), but with a focus on being a Bard. A risk taker and a scoundrel who is generally landing in trouble and dragging his companions along with him. A good fighter but a better talker, someone who can back up his own self inflated opinion of himself (well... most of the time). A character who can rely on himself rather than any one piece equipment or companion, but who has accumulated a good balance of belongings to ensure well rounded abilities. I guess I want to stick with vanilla classes, no Paladin, Druid, Barbarian etc. but... any suggestions are taken into considertaion. Chaotic Neatral too... I will be taking Leadership I think, a Rogue. I've looked at differnt builds and in the end this will allow me to focus on social (and a few core physical) skills rather than speading my skill points across the classic Rogue skills. That way I can also focus on combat and Bardic abilities as my primairy focus. As a CN character, Exalted feats are out... Words of Creation ARE great, but aprt from the alignment thing, that damage, (even subdual) would be fatal in a two person group. I really like Combat Expertise though, with or without the 'Improved' tree. As the DM of a 2 man party, the poor Rogue was always on the 'Defensive' with his low hitponts which would always run out before his Barbarian companions... So to be able to keep on fighting while pumping up your AC is a great benefit. I definetly like Improved Toughness though... it's like +2 Con! Once again, thanks for all the ideas... hopefully we can squeeze a few more out. I've seen some quite differnt suggestions from many of the other Bard threads which is what I was looking for.