Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 12:21 PM	If a bard or sorcerer has a spell on a scroll, can they choose to learn that spell when they go up a level, even if it is not on their spell list? For example, can a 7th level bard learn Fireball? Can a 12th level sorcerer learn Heal? My DM seems to think so. I guess he's right under Rule 0, but what do y'all think?
paolung 01-13-04, 12:31 PM	there is some debate about this, but generally speaking IMO you can only learn spells on your spell list.
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 01:54 PM	Yeah, either that, or invent new spells. Like if I had a pyro sorcerer, I would want Ember, a 0 level spell that makes your fingertip burn like a coal. It lasts for 1 minute per level, illuminates like a candle, and is useful for setting things on fire (like lamps and candlabras). If used as a melee attack (not touch attack) it causes 1 point of non-lethal fire damage. This spell isn't on the list, but seems to meet the flavor of sorcerers.
paolung 01-13-04, 01:57 PM	right, CREATING spells is another ballgame entirely and i agree, that would be an appropriate type of spell for a sorc/wizard. while the sorc class description (and bard i think) does mention "unusual" spells, it is my opinion that this is referring to rare and uncommon type spells that others have created that are not on the 'general' spell lists... not healing spells or spells that cross the divine/arcane distinctions. D&D is pretty clear that arcane casters shouldn't get direct healing spells (with the sole exception of the bard, who gets some, but she's a unique case in both magic and ability) there are VERY few exceptions to the rule.
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 02:34 PM	Would it be unbalancing in a party that has no wizard or sorcerer for a bard to learn fireball? Especially in a primarily hack and slash campaign? Well, it's kind of a moot point since we have 3 new players and one is a wizard. And we have a new NPC who is an evoker. The old party: Human Fighter 4 Human Fighter 2/Rogue 2 Kender Bard 3 Elf Ranger 4 and Thunder the wolf Elf Druid 4 and Spike the advanced war dog NPC Aasimar Cleric 3 The 2 new parties: Human Fighter 4 Human Fighter 2/Rogue 2 Elf Druid 4 and wardog. (Me) NPC Human (?) Wizard evoker 3? Kender Bard 3 (gonna be a Dragon Disciple) Elf Ranger 4 and wolf Elf Wizard 3? Halfling Rogue 3? Human Monk 3 (Vow of Poverty tank) (Me) Human Fighter 3. NPC aasimar cleric 3
Hogre 01-13-04, 03:11 PM	This was never intended to be allowed. That being said, in both 3.0 and 3.5 they state it very poorly. A spellcaster is never supposed to be able to learn a spell that isn't on their spell list. The confusing rule is there to allow bards and sorcerors to gain spells that come from sources other than the PHB.
tarkin 01-13-04, 03:14 PM	It should be noted that while they may have said it poorly in the core books, the Sage clearly said "NO, you can't do that" both before 3.5 and again after 3.5 In my opinion only munchkins and munchkin hereders, who refuse to admit they are house-ruling on anything, claim it is legal.
Zetal 01-13-04, 03:50 PM	This is the text in which it is not clarified in the rules for it is a opened end broad statement.: Pg 54 3.5 PHB ________________________________________ ____________ These news spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerers/wizards spell list (page 192), or they can be unusal spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or a spell book detailing an unsual sorcerer/wizards spell ( one that is not on the sorcerer/wizards spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. ________________________________________ ____________ Thus this is what the debate is about is how one may percive this as a justifiable means to allow such spells to the sorcerers or bards spells to use if the meet caster level and have the ability to have the scroll or spell book on hand at time of lvl up.
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 04:37 PM	It could also be said that a sorcerer would not be able to have any understanding of a divine healing spell. It's why straight up fighters don't get to sneak attack, even though they are good at fighting and stuff. They're just good at fighting in a different way.
Sorxores 01-13-04, 04:50 PM	One of my friend told me that it mean a Sorcerer can learn a spell create by a Wizard if the wizard (or other sorcerer) wrote it in his spell book or scroll. The point to do this his that the Sorcerer do not spend Xp nor Gp for a new spell. But you must find a wizard who have create the new spell or ask to the wizard to spend his Xp to create your new spell.
Zetal 01-13-04, 05:02 PM	This is the email responce that i got from Wotc that i emailed last night.: _____________________________________ "What this means is that if the DM permits, you can learn additional spells from that character class's spell list if they get the opportunity to study them before they would normally be able to add them. You still cannot take spells from another class's spell list. Thanks!" **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** **************************************** ************************** Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 ________________________________________ _ So where does this leave us....
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 05:24 PM	It means a sorcerer can learn sor/wiz spells from other sources, but not cleric or druid spells.
Kaya Kenobi 01-13-04, 06:07 PM	Wizards and sorcerers should NEVER learn any healing spells.
SmiloDan 01-13-04, 06:33 PM	Except Vampiric Touch. ;)
Kaya Kenobi 01-13-04, 06:57 PM	Originally posted by SmiloDan Except Vampiric Touch. ;) That deals damage.. :D And on top of that, it's only temporary HP.. Which sucks...
paolung 01-13-04, 06:58 PM	there are a few roundabout healing-type spells, but as a general rule wiz/sorc should not learn direct healing, i agree.
BlaineTog 01-13-04, 10:38 PM	Originally posted by Sorxores One of my friend told me that it mean a Sorcerer can learn a spell create by a Wizard if the wizard (or other sorcerer) wrote it in his spell book or scroll. The point to do this his that the Sorcerer do not spend Xp nor Gp for a new spell. But you must find a wizard who have create the new spell or ask to the wizard to spend his Xp to create your new spell. Sure the sorcerer would lern it: at the level-up mark. When said sorcerer ammasses enough XP to reach the next experience level, (s)he can take it as one of his/her spells known (assuming they get a Spell Known of that level, um, that level. :D). Under no circumstances can a sorcerer know more spells than the table in the PHB says, unless you take the feat "Extra Spell" or have a Prestige class that grant's extra spells (which is basically just the Exalted Arcanist in BoED, to my knoweldge). Savvy?
Kaya Kenobi 01-14-04, 02:45 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Savvy? Sure thing... Also, I still don't agree with wiz/sor getting divine spells, almost as much as domains allow arcane spells to the clerics..
CaoSlayer 01-14-04, 03:52 AM	Originally posted by SmiloDan Except Vampiric Touch. ;) And also a couple of planeshifts toward the plane of positive energy can fully heal you without troubles. ummm, I was thinking about creating a level 8-9 spell that allowed to teleport the caster or a target to the plane of + energy, stay there until a command word and when get back to the exact place back.
Kaya Kenobi 01-14-04, 04:05 AM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer And also a couple of planeshifts toward the plane of positive energy can fully heal you without troubles. Too much of a good thing can kill you though...
CaoSlayer 01-14-04, 04:31 AM	yep, I know it... I love specially using planeshift -> + energy plane against clueless oponents. They dont notice that are in a dangerous plane until they explode :smirk:
Kaya Kenobi 01-14-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer yep, I know it... I love specially using planeshift -> + energy plane against clueless oponents. They dont notice that are in a dangerous plane until they explode :smirk: Wow... This place is so beautiful... Wait.. What's happening to me? Huh?! NOOO!!!! *splat*
SmiloDan 01-14-04, 03:21 PM	LOL! @ *splat* Reminds me of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.