bard artaficers, whats good to do with them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

bard artaficers, whats good to do with them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dev Vim
02-11-05, 12:49 PM my girlfriend plays a bard/artaficer, but now shes kind of stuck. shes focused on the music and item creation, but in an actual adventure that only gets you so far, is there any other hidden potential or neat tricks with this combo that im not seeing? im not trying to min/max or anything mind you but im trying to help her develop a unique flair with her character and i figured there must be something that im overlooking that would play off of the two classes in a unique way. honestly im not really posative what im looking for, but i do know that if she keeps going the way she is that it will end up with just a singing item making character with little else on her plate and she dosent want that. if anyone can help it would be most appriciated
CaoSlayer
02-11-05, 01:43 PM ummm, I dont know nothing about the artificier (not eberron friendly), but by the things that I know about the bard I can say that it is a really bad idea to try a 50%/50% bard/anything build; bards are primary spellcasters, the songs can be ever saw as spells and so all this power it is related to this caster level, and so adding levels in one classes will hurt this spellcasting a lot of...

I would recomend up to 4 levels in a non-bardic caster class so the bard would be able to sing almost every song and cast up to level 6 spells.
I the other way, adding about 4 levels of bard will grant +3 BAB, good saves a good deal of skills, bardic knowledge +3 and if enought charisma and a good pick, a level 3 wizard/sorcerer spell (level 2 bard spell).
Only one level of bard it is almost a waste, one use of bardic music it is too little and get almost no arcane casting ; maybe it is good at level one for the 6x4 skill points and for allowing to use cure wound wands and little more.
Dev Vim
02-11-05, 01:50 PM well the thing is with bards, as she put it, is that they dont have enough spell pwoer to make the spells worth it on their own. she likes the songs because she can use them while fighting and give everyone a bonus, which comes in real handy. and she can facinate people with her already high preform (singing) skill. furthermore she finds that the few bard spells she dose know help her (and us) out when she cant use one of the items she has made or has not made something useful for the situation. also she apparently likes the bardic knowledge, which is good because even with an intellegence of 18 im not wasting my barbarians 8 skill points per level on some ambiguous knowlege skill when i can get my craft pumped up. still there really has to be more that she can do, and i was hoping somone might know what that something is
CaoSlayer
02-11-05, 02:10 PM je, actually the spells of a bard are this most powerful feature, dont underestimate them, especially if she likes to fight, then she will love spells like alter-self for adquiring a flying avariel shape (there are avariel there?) or a +6 to natural AC with a troglodite shape.
Also remember that a lot of bards spells are one level lower than in the wizard/sorcerer list so they are balanced in power because it is posible to have a know spell list with very powerful spells.
Also some spells are wonderful tools, invisibilite makes hide skill obsolete and shatter can break traps and doors better than a rogue, by example.

And the power of the whip, being able to disarm or trip at 15 feets away it is priceless.

I would recomend her to take a look to these spells:
level 1:
expeditious retreat
grease (use on enemy weapon or in the floor against an armored oponent)
level 2:
glitter dust
alter self
SILENCE (ready it against a caster for ruining this spell)
level 3:
BLINK 20% own miss chance, but 50% miss to enemies, half damage from area spells, 50% miss to targered spells, you are considered invisible to attack (+2 to hit, dex denied), can go throught walls and doors, ect.
HASTE: one extra attack to everybody +1 to hit and AC also

The best thing about buffers it is that since bards can use light armor without troubles and have a decent bab, can be a way better warrior/mage than mages with lots of buffers.
Dev Vim
02-11-05, 02:18 PM well most of the spells she has right now are things like cure light wounds and blur, lots of defensive and healing spells. the basic tactic is that she dose the healing and aiding and i do the bashing, and she uses things like wands of fireball in a deathwand crossbow to give some ranged support. thats why her songs are so important, they can up my characters already substantial attacks along with whatever spells she thows my way, and then she can cut down anything i cant with big magical firepower that she made with her artaficer levels beforehand. though i will look into those spells and talk them over with her, it may be we have underestimated the bards spell list after all sicne it looks so weak onpaper
CaoSlayer
02-11-05, 02:31 PM yes, bards are weak by the paper, they main str. comes from combining everything together, the fighting is weak, the spell casting it is midly weak and also the songs, but then when you get some fighting feats, buffer spells and songs, a bard become a beast.

If you own complete warrior, take a look to the arcane strike feat (you can exchange a diarly spell user for to hit and damage for a whole round)

I always give this example:
bard level 8

a level 8 bard can use a light armor (chain mail by example) without troubles and a mithril shield with just 5% arcane spell fail (a 1 in a d20 chance) and keep alter self up to 80 minutes, then when there is a fight, casts haste and everybody gets a +1 to hit and damage and one extra attack, and in the next round sings inspire courage +2 for +2 to hit and damage, now considering than a fighter have bab 8 and a level 8 bard bab 6, with the +3 bonus, now have the same to hit of the fighter with weapon focus and deal the same damage than with weapon spec. and also deal one extra attack, and the best of all, also this friend fighter have those bonuses for an extra punch.
A bard it is a master of suporting and it is great at suporting himself.
SmiloDan
02-11-05, 05:03 PM Can she make items that boost her bardic abilities? Maybe give her a +1 extra bonus on her Inpsire Courage ability, or a Harmony ability that allows her to affect 3 targets instead of 1, or something like that?

I know squat about artificers, but it sounds like they make lots of magic items. Maybe just max out Use Magic Device and make lots of wands of fireballs? Is that possible with an artificer? And take that cool Dual Wand Wielder feat. 2 Wands at once. Nice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dev Vim 02-11-05, 12:49 PM	my girlfriend plays a bard/artaficer, but now shes kind of stuck. shes focused on the music and item creation, but in an actual adventure that only gets you so far, is there any other hidden potential or neat tricks with this combo that im not seeing? im not trying to min/max or anything mind you but im trying to help her develop a unique flair with her character and i figured there must be something that im overlooking that would play off of the two classes in a unique way. honestly im not really posative what im looking for, but i do know that if she keeps going the way she is that it will end up with just a singing item making character with little else on her plate and she dosent want that. if anyone can help it would be most appriciated
CaoSlayer 02-11-05, 01:43 PM	ummm, I dont know nothing about the artificier (not eberron friendly), but by the things that I know about the bard I can say that it is a really bad idea to try a 50%/50% bard/anything build; bards are primary spellcasters, the songs can be ever saw as spells and so all this power it is related to this caster level, and so adding levels in one classes will hurt this spellcasting a lot of... I would recomend up to 4 levels in a non-bardic caster class so the bard would be able to sing almost every song and cast up to level 6 spells. I the other way, adding about 4 levels of bard will grant +3 BAB, good saves a good deal of skills, bardic knowledge +3 and if enought charisma and a good pick, a level 3 wizard/sorcerer spell (level 2 bard spell). Only one level of bard it is almost a waste, one use of bardic music it is too little and get almost no arcane casting ; maybe it is good at level one for the 6x4 skill points and for allowing to use cure wound wands and little more.
Dev Vim 02-11-05, 01:50 PM	well the thing is with bards, as she put it, is that they dont have enough spell pwoer to make the spells worth it on their own. she likes the songs because she can use them while fighting and give everyone a bonus, which comes in real handy. and she can facinate people with her already high preform (singing) skill. furthermore she finds that the few bard spells she dose know help her (and us) out when she cant use one of the items she has made or has not made something useful for the situation. also she apparently likes the bardic knowledge, which is good because even with an intellegence of 18 im not wasting my barbarians 8 skill points per level on some ambiguous knowlege skill when i can get my craft pumped up. still there really has to be more that she can do, and i was hoping somone might know what that something is
CaoSlayer 02-11-05, 02:10 PM	je, actually the spells of a bard are this most powerful feature, dont underestimate them, especially if she likes to fight, then she will love spells like alter-self for adquiring a flying avariel shape (there are avariel there?) or a +6 to natural AC with a troglodite shape. Also remember that a lot of bards spells are one level lower than in the wizard/sorcerer list so they are balanced in power because it is posible to have a know spell list with very powerful spells. Also some spells are wonderful tools, invisibilite makes hide skill obsolete and shatter can break traps and doors better than a rogue, by example. And the power of the whip, being able to disarm or trip at 15 feets away it is priceless. I would recomend her to take a look to these spells: level 1: expeditious retreat grease (use on enemy weapon or in the floor against an armored oponent) level 2: glitter dust alter self SILENCE (ready it against a caster for ruining this spell) level 3: BLINK 20% own miss chance, but 50% miss to enemies, half damage from area spells, 50% miss to targered spells, you are considered invisible to attack (+2 to hit, dex denied), can go throught walls and doors, ect. HASTE: one extra attack to everybody +1 to hit and AC also The best thing about buffers it is that since bards can use light armor without troubles and have a decent bab, can be a way better warrior/mage than mages with lots of buffers.
Dev Vim 02-11-05, 02:18 PM	well most of the spells she has right now are things like cure light wounds and blur, lots of defensive and healing spells. the basic tactic is that she dose the healing and aiding and i do the bashing, and she uses things like wands of fireball in a deathwand crossbow to give some ranged support. thats why her songs are so important, they can up my characters already substantial attacks along with whatever spells she thows my way, and then she can cut down anything i cant with big magical firepower that she made with her artaficer levels beforehand. though i will look into those spells and talk them over with her, it may be we have underestimated the bards spell list after all sicne it looks so weak onpaper
CaoSlayer 02-11-05, 02:31 PM	yes, bards are weak by the paper, they main str. comes from combining everything together, the fighting is weak, the spell casting it is midly weak and also the songs, but then when you get some fighting feats, buffer spells and songs, a bard become a beast. If you own complete warrior, take a look to the arcane strike feat (you can exchange a diarly spell user for to hit and damage for a whole round) I always give this example: bard level 8 a level 8 bard can use a light armor (chain mail by example) without troubles and a mithril shield with just 5% arcane spell fail (a 1 in a d20 chance) and keep alter self up to 80 minutes, then when there is a fight, casts haste and everybody gets a +1 to hit and damage and one extra attack, and in the next round sings inspire courage +2 for +2 to hit and damage, now considering than a fighter have bab 8 and a level 8 bard bab 6, with the +3 bonus, now have the same to hit of the fighter with weapon focus and deal the same damage than with weapon spec. and also deal one extra attack, and the best of all, also this friend fighter have those bonuses for an extra punch. A bard it is a master of suporting and it is great at suporting himself.
SmiloDan 02-11-05, 05:03 PM	Can she make items that boost her bardic abilities? Maybe give her a +1 extra bonus on her Inpsire Courage ability, or a Harmony ability that allows her to affect 3 targets instead of 1, or something like that? I know squat about artificers, but it sounds like they make lots of magic items. Maybe just max out Use Magic Device and make lots of wands of fireballs? Is that possible with an artificer? And take that cool Dual Wand Wielder feat. 2 Wands at once. Nice.