Bard getting the short end of the stick? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard getting the short end of the stick? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-12-04, 11:17 PM I have noticed that in most books there are hardly any feats, or specific spells for Bards. It's like the designers stuck the Bard in, and just forgot about the class. I really like the Bard, but could the designers provide more? Tell me what you think.
Sheer_FALACY
02-12-04, 11:19 PM By "most books" do you mean every book other than Song and Silence and the BoED? Essentially, you are saying that bards get shafted in every book about warriors and every book about wizards. What a surprise.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-12-04, 11:21 PM Originally posted by Sheer_FALACY
By "most books" do you mean every book other than Song and Silence and the BoED? Essentially, you are saying that bards get shafted in every book about warriors and every book about wizards. What a surprise.

I mean the PHB, books from Sword and Sorcery, Forgotten Realms etc.... There just isn't a lot of information on Bards like there are for the other classes.
Ithilorien
02-12-04, 11:24 PM Song and Silence and Book of Exalted Deeds are indeed great for bards, including some of the best feats ever (like Lingering Song and Words of Creation) and great spells (Improvisation and Empyreal Ecstasy) though there are also some useful tricks to be found in Vile Darkness and Savage Species.

Races of Faerun is another good book for bards, with the Spellsinger prestige class and Talfirian Song feat and Magic of Faerun has some nice bard spells as well as the Spelldancer prestige class, and nice magical instruments.

Moreover, even stuff without things expressly for bards can be useful, three levels of Holy Liberator (from Defenders of the Faith) can be great for some bard builds, for example.

Finally, as a jack-of-all-trades the bard can benefit from almost any feat, they don't necessarilly need ones made expressly for them.
Sheer_FALACY
02-12-04, 11:26 PM Sword and Sorcery is third party, so I don't give a damn what they publish.

FR is like Tome and Blood with a new name; you can hardly expect bardic stuff from it. The PHB involves just as many feats and PRCs for bards as it does for any other arcane spellcasters, and actually features more items and skills.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-12-04, 11:26 PM I've also noticed that their aren't very many items just for the Bard.
Ithilorien
02-12-04, 11:29 PM As opposed to all those items made expressly for each other class . . . :rolleyes:

Again, look at Song and Silence, Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Forgotten Realms stuff.

If third-party crap wants to ignore bards, who cares? It's certainly not an issue with WotC products.
Sheer_FALACY
02-12-04, 11:29 PM There are more items just for the bard than there are just for the wizard. As far as I know, the only item that is usable only by a wizard is Boccob's Blessed book. Bards get several instruments. WoTC should focus on Wizards more! They are getting the short end of the stick!
BlaineTog
02-12-04, 11:34 PM If anyone is getting shafted, it's the Sorcerer. But let's not go there.

The bard has plenty. AS it's already been mentioned, it's a Jack of all trades, master of one, and thus can make use of many, many other class-specific PrCs, items, etc. Plus, bards get magic instruments in a number of books (notabley Magic of Faerun adn Song and Silence).
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-12-04, 11:35 PM Originally posted by Sheer_FALACY
There are more items just for the bard than there are just for the wizard. As far as I know, the only item that is usable only by a wizard is Boccob's Blessed book. Bards get several instruments. WoTC should focus on Wizards more! They are getting the short end of the stick!

Well lets see, there is the Headbands if Intellect, I know others can use them, but why would others need it, Tome of Clear thoughts etc... I know other classes can use these. Actually the Wizard class has a lot. There are many books that go with the Wizard.
Ithilorien
02-12-04, 11:42 PM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
Well lets see, there is the Headbands if Intellect, I know others can use them, but why would others need it, Tome of Clear thoughts etc... I know other classes can use these. Actually the Wizard class has a lot. There are many books that go with the Wizard.

Well, there are also Cloaks of Charisma and Tomes of Leadership and Influence, so bards and wizards should be at least equal, shouldn't they?

Another point - with use magic device any item is a bard (or rogue) item.
BlaineTog
02-12-04, 11:44 PM There's aslo the sweet Circlet of Persuasion. +2 to all your cha-based skill checks (might just be for social stuff though). If that doesn't just scream bard, nothing does.
Druid Roxors
02-13-04, 12:36 AM Bards get alot of stuff from other non-core books. The only thing is that you will never find that New level 6 bardic spell that does 2d6 damage per level because bards are not intended to be that way. They are not supposed to have flashy spells, destructive phisical prowess, Unmatched aim, unrivalled Skills... Any addition to the bard will go unnoticed because the bard class is pretty unpopular.
LoricDAHPaladin
02-13-04, 12:51 AM Originally posted by BlaineTog
The bard has plenty.

Yeah...MORE than plenty. But I am not going to pick apart his words...more than I did.

I will point out that since bards BORROW from all other classes, that it is lunacy to assert that the most uninspired creation of "I-WANT-IT-ALL" should have power on its own beyond what it lifts from the other classes. The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity.
Ithilorien
02-13-04, 12:54 AM Originally posted by Druid Roxors
Bards get alot of stuff from other non-core books. The only thing is that you will never find that New level 6 bardic spell that does 2d6 damage per level because bards are not intended to be that way.
Cacaphonic Burst is capped at 15d6 sonic damage.

Dirge deals 2 strength and 2 dexterity damage per round.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They aren't meant to throw fireballs, no, but there are indeed some very powerful offensive spells afforded to the bard.

As for the "unpopular" comment I have encountered no reason to believe the bard is less popular than any other core class. Sure, there's always the occassional bard-basher on the boards, but they always are outnumbered by the supporters.
Ithilorien
02-13-04, 12:58 AM Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin
The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity.
I fail to see how the bard "borrows" any more from other classes than does the ranger (fighter/rogue/druid), paladin (fighter/cleric), hexblade (fighter/sorcerer), druid (kind of a nature-themed wizard/cleric, really, they can also wild shape to outfight a fighter), or cleric (their domains allow them to steal anyone's role).

The bard is a wizard/rogue with healing spells and not even access to all wizard magic, and also by virtue of bardic knowledge and bardic music, has abilities all its own.
BlaineTog
02-13-04, 01:03 AM Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin
Yeah...MORE than plenty. But I am not going to pick apart his words...more than I did.I was counting the seconds on my watch until you arrived to grace us with your unwavering flattery of all which is Bard. :D ;)

I will point out that since bards BORROW from all other classes, that it is lunacy to assert that the most uninspired creation of "I-WANT-IT-ALL" should have power on its own beyond what it lifts from the other classes.And I will be kind enough not to pick apart your words (your curtesy has afforded you a free pass, so to speak :D ), but I will say this: the satorical idea that music holding the power of magic in its very notes and raiseing the hearts of all the bard's allies is everything but "uninspired."

The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity. :rolleyes: There is absolutelly nothing wrong with being a JoaT, despite what you may think. Ask the vast majority of incoming Freshmen to college and they will agree with me. There is a reason that Liberal Arts colleges exist.

But this thread is not about the philosophy governing the bard, adn thus I will cease to argue it.
JoAT
02-13-04, 03:06 AM Originally posted by BlaineTog
There is absolutelly nothing wrong with being a JoaT,

There better not be. :D

Anyways, as to the bards, and lack of stuff, for them... I can't really agree with that. Bards have, for themselves, some of the most unique magical items (in the form of instruments), and some of the more interesting feats as well (at least, those in song and silence). In addition, almost any feat meant for another class will be useful to a bard on some level, expecting the ones that take specific class abilites into account - they're unfocused enough that it all can really apply to them directly, even if it does them somewhat less good than that feat in another classes hands.

In fact, about the only real shortage of bardic material I've seen is a shortage of PrCs. I can count about... three. There are reasons for this, and good ones (the main part being that with only 3 major abilities, all of which scale, it becomes really difficult to decide what to ditch...) However, given that they can qualify for a horde of PrCs meant for other classes easily, it's no big thing..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-12-04, 11:17 PM	I have noticed that in most books there are hardly any feats, or specific spells for Bards. It's like the designers stuck the Bard in, and just forgot about the class. I really like the Bard, but could the designers provide more? Tell me what you think.
Sheer_FALACY 02-12-04, 11:19 PM	By "most books" do you mean every book other than Song and Silence and the BoED? Essentially, you are saying that bards get shafted in every book about warriors and every book about wizards. What a surprise.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-12-04, 11:21 PM	Originally posted by Sheer_FALACY By "most books" do you mean every book other than Song and Silence and the BoED? Essentially, you are saying that bards get shafted in every book about warriors and every book about wizards. What a surprise. I mean the PHB, books from Sword and Sorcery, Forgotten Realms etc.... There just isn't a lot of information on Bards like there are for the other classes.
Ithilorien 02-12-04, 11:24 PM	Song and Silence and Book of Exalted Deeds are indeed great for bards, including some of the best feats ever (like Lingering Song and Words of Creation) and great spells (Improvisation and Empyreal Ecstasy) though there are also some useful tricks to be found in Vile Darkness and Savage Species. Races of Faerun is another good book for bards, with the Spellsinger prestige class and Talfirian Song feat and Magic of Faerun has some nice bard spells as well as the Spelldancer prestige class, and nice magical instruments. Moreover, even stuff without things expressly for bards can be useful, three levels of Holy Liberator (from Defenders of the Faith) can be great for some bard builds, for example. Finally, as a jack-of-all-trades the bard can benefit from almost any feat, they don't necessarilly need ones made expressly for them.
Sheer_FALACY 02-12-04, 11:26 PM	Sword and Sorcery is third party, so I don't give a damn what they publish. FR is like Tome and Blood with a new name; you can hardly expect bardic stuff from it. The PHB involves just as many feats and PRCs for bards as it does for any other arcane spellcasters, and actually features more items and skills.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-12-04, 11:26 PM	I've also noticed that their aren't very many items just for the Bard.
Ithilorien 02-12-04, 11:29 PM	As opposed to all those items made expressly for each other class . . . :rolleyes: Again, look at Song and Silence, Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Forgotten Realms stuff. If third-party crap wants to ignore bards, who cares? It's certainly not an issue with WotC products.
Sheer_FALACY 02-12-04, 11:29 PM	There are more items just for the bard than there are just for the wizard. As far as I know, the only item that is usable only by a wizard is Boccob's Blessed book. Bards get several instruments. WoTC should focus on Wizards more! They are getting the short end of the stick!
BlaineTog 02-12-04, 11:34 PM	If anyone is getting shafted, it's the Sorcerer. But let's not go there. The bard has plenty. AS it's already been mentioned, it's a Jack of all trades, master of one, and thus can make use of many, many other class-specific PrCs, items, etc. Plus, bards get magic instruments in a number of books (notabley Magic of Faerun adn Song and Silence).
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-12-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by Sheer_FALACY There are more items just for the bard than there are just for the wizard. As far as I know, the only item that is usable only by a wizard is Boccob's Blessed book. Bards get several instruments. WoTC should focus on Wizards more! They are getting the short end of the stick! Well lets see, there is the Headbands if Intellect, I know others can use them, but why would others need it, Tome of Clear thoughts etc... I know other classes can use these. Actually the Wizard class has a lot. There are many books that go with the Wizard.
Ithilorien 02-12-04, 11:42 PM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek Well lets see, there is the Headbands if Intellect, I know others can use them, but why would others need it, Tome of Clear thoughts etc... I know other classes can use these. Actually the Wizard class has a lot. There are many books that go with the Wizard. Well, there are also Cloaks of Charisma and Tomes of Leadership and Influence, so bards and wizards should be at least equal, shouldn't they? Another point - with use magic device any item is a bard (or rogue) item.
BlaineTog 02-12-04, 11:44 PM	There's aslo the sweet Circlet of Persuasion. +2 to all your cha-based skill checks (might just be for social stuff though). If that doesn't just scream bard, nothing does.
Druid Roxors 02-13-04, 12:36 AM	Bards get alot of stuff from other non-core books. The only thing is that you will never find that New level 6 bardic spell that does 2d6 damage per level because bards are not intended to be that way. They are not supposed to have flashy spells, destructive phisical prowess, Unmatched aim, unrivalled Skills... Any addition to the bard will go unnoticed because the bard class is pretty unpopular.
LoricDAHPaladin 02-13-04, 12:51 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog The bard has plenty. Yeah...MORE than plenty. But I am not going to pick apart his words...more than I did. I will point out that since bards BORROW from all other classes, that it is lunacy to assert that the most uninspired creation of "I-WANT-IT-ALL" should have power on its own beyond what it lifts from the other classes. The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity.
Ithilorien 02-13-04, 12:54 AM	Originally posted by Druid Roxors Bards get alot of stuff from other non-core books. The only thing is that you will never find that New level 6 bardic spell that does 2d6 damage per level because bards are not intended to be that way. Cacaphonic Burst is capped at 15d6 sonic damage. Dirge deals 2 strength and 2 dexterity damage per round. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They aren't meant to throw fireballs, no, but there are indeed some very powerful offensive spells afforded to the bard. As for the "unpopular" comment I have encountered no reason to believe the bard is less popular than any other core class. Sure, there's always the occassional bard-basher on the boards, but they always are outnumbered by the supporters.
Ithilorien 02-13-04, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity. I fail to see how the bard "borrows" any more from other classes than does the ranger (fighter/rogue/druid), paladin (fighter/cleric), hexblade (fighter/sorcerer), druid (kind of a nature-themed wizard/cleric, really, they can also wild shape to outfight a fighter), or cleric (their domains allow them to steal anyone's role). The bard is a wizard/rogue with healing spells and not even access to all wizard magic, and also by virtue of bardic knowledge and bardic music, has abilities all its own.
BlaineTog 02-13-04, 01:03 AM	Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin Yeah...MORE than plenty. But I am not going to pick apart his words...more than I did.I was counting the seconds on my watch until you arrived to grace us with your unwavering flattery of all which is Bard. :D ;) I will point out that since bards BORROW from all other classes, that it is lunacy to assert that the most uninspired creation of "I-WANT-IT-ALL" should have power on its own beyond what it lifts from the other classes.And I will be kind enough not to pick apart your words (your curtesy has afforded you a free pass, so to speak :D ), but I will say this: the satorical idea that music holding the power of magic in its very notes and raiseing the hearts of all the bard's allies is everything but "uninspired." The people who created bards, and I mean this, are reminiscent of Ed Norton's character in The Italian Job. He had no concept of what he wanted in life, so he simply leached off of his partners' dreams of prosperity. :rolleyes: There is absolutelly nothing wrong with being a JoaT, despite what you may think. Ask the vast majority of incoming Freshmen to college and they will agree with me. There is a reason that Liberal Arts colleges exist. But this thread is not about the philosophy governing the bard, adn thus I will cease to argue it.
JoAT 02-13-04, 03:06 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog There is absolutelly nothing wrong with being a JoaT, There better not be. :D Anyways, as to the bards, and lack of stuff, for them... I can't really agree with that. Bards have, for themselves, some of the most unique magical items (in the form of instruments), and some of the more interesting feats as well (at least, those in song and silence). In addition, almost any feat meant for another class will be useful to a bard on some level, expecting the ones that take specific class abilites into account - they're unfocused enough that it all can really apply to them directly, even if it does them somewhat less good than that feat in another classes hands. In fact, about the only real shortage of bardic material I've seen is a shortage of PrCs. I can count about... three. There are reasons for this, and good ones (the main part being that with only 3 major abilities, all of which scale, it becomes really difficult to decide what to ditch...) However, given that they can qualify for a horde of PrCs meant for other classes easily, it's no big thing..