bard help.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

bard help.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
crimsonwolf
02-09-07, 03:49 AM what is honestly the best race to play bard with?
CaoSlayer
02-09-07, 04:32 AM What kind of bard do you want?

Every race have good and bad points.

In few words:

Half-elf -> diplomat bard superb with his substitution levels from races of fate I think, otherwise isnt a very good race.

elf -> archer and/or caster bard -> with a -2 to con and d6 of hp you dont want to be in front lines, elves are good archer bards because they can use long bows while other bards would have to spend a feat or multiclass. A grey elf is good if you dont mind attacking cause a +2 int is good for skills.

halfling -> Those guys are nice but they dont get nothing a bard could use, they are too small for weapons and dont get any kind of benefit for a spellcaster. The can be average casters because the dex bonus is always nice and being smaller makes you a little harder to hit (a +2 to AC vs being an human).

Human -> always a good race and one of the best for a bard with access with lots of splat books because a bard is always feat-thirsty, a bard that starts with focus enchantment and greater focus enchantment is fearsome at low levels also an archer bard could start with the mandatory point blank shot and precise shot.

Gnome -> best caster race IMO, again small size and weapons is bad, gnomes are great casters bards because they get a free focus with illusions and are very hard to kill with a +2 con while being the -2 str not important.

Dwarf, Half-orc -> if you roll good stats they can be a very good option, specially dwarves being one of the best melee bards being medium size with a con bonus those are hard to kill, the +2 to saves is wonderful and if you are a whip wielder the stability bonus is very nice. If you focus in str, dex and con and just place a 14 in charisma you can work nicely using spells without saves, mainly buffs like haste, heroism and your songs, also if you go into warchanter prc with just a couple levels of bard you can have just a 12 in charisma since you will get almost no spellcasting but you will be an almost full singer.

Half-Orc:
Dont laught
The_Shaman
02-09-07, 04:43 AM Would LA races be included? Half-fey bards are imo great, although the LA+2 can slow your progression somewhat. Still, it's a powerful race despite the LA and the abilities have a terrific synergy with bard. You will have a HP problem, though, so plan on not getting in battle. Feytouched (+1) is okay, but nothing that great. Some of the genasi (I think fire had a charisma bonus) or aasimar could also work.
CaoSlayer
02-09-07, 08:06 AM well, the thing is that both songs and spellcasting that are bard primary features are very hurt with LA just like pure caster so playing a race with LA can be fun that is the focus of the game but you are gimping yourself.
The_Shaman
02-09-07, 10:22 AM To a certain point, yes, but imo bard is much less vulnerable to "lost levels" than a wizard or sorcerer: they get their higher level spells sooner, they can use the majority of their songs with 1-2 levels less (2 less songs per level isn't that bad if you get artist/extra music/or just can sing 10 times anyway, and the ability/stat bonuses can often compensate for the skills (the bard's third important feature).

It's always a tradeoff, but (imo of course) a LA race hurts a bard much less than a wizard. If it gives charisma bonus, additional abilities (spell-likes or not) and perhaps a bonus to skills the bard is interested in, imo it could be worth it. Of course, it depends on the template... but as far as they go, half-fey is a rather powerful one. Also, being able to access different types through alter self (a potentially powerful bard spell) can be worth it: there are some great fey and outsiders with up to 5 HDs.

Anyway, from the standard races I'd prefer human, half-elf or gnome - it's a favored class and each of them, as CaoSlayer pointed out, bring something very good to the bard.
kadeity
02-09-07, 10:39 AM Human.
extra music@1st level, and still a feat to spare.
CaoSlayer
02-09-07, 02:21 PM To a certain point, yes, but imo bard is much less vulnerable to "lost levels" than a wizard or sorcerer: they get their higher level spells sooner, they can use the majority of their songs with 1-2 levels less (2 less songs per level isn't that bad if you get artist/extra music/or just can sing 10 times anyway, and the ability/stat bonuses can often compensate for the skills (the bard's third important feature).

It's always a tradeoff, but (imo of course) a LA race hurts a bard much less than a wizard. If it gives charisma bonus, additional abilities (spell-likes or not) and perhaps a bonus to skills the bard is interested in, imo it could be worth it. Of course, it depends on the template... but as far as they go, half-fey is a rather powerful one. Also, being able to access different types through alter self (a potentially powerful bard spell) can be worth it: there are some great fey and outsiders with up to 5 HDs.

Anyway, from the standard races I'd prefer human, half-elf or gnome - it's a favored class and each of them, as CaoSlayer pointed out, bring something very good to the bard.

I disagre by the same reason, the spell progresion, while they get a bunch of spells earlier others are very delayed..

In the mid-long run the race´s SLA and stuff usually become watered down at higher levels specially compared with the stuff you should got if you kept as a low level LA, including most time a whole higher spell level available. Also multiclassing or geting some levels in a prestige can be more worth.

So high LA races are a bothersome at low levels because you lacks the hp and skills of a pure class and become a true pain at higher levels as I have already said.

The only classes that have not any trouble with high LA are those that dont offer anything special at highest levels neither have spellcasting, I Dont know any high LA class worth being able to cast two extra Otto´s dance and know three/four extra lower level spells.
CaoSlayer
02-09-07, 02:23 PM Human.
extra music@1st level, and still a feat to spare.

umm, extra music only is a good feat if you are going to get a lot of bardic music feats like lyric spell or ironskin chant, otherwise isnt that good because you dont need to spend more that one song per combat at low levels and by the time you have two combat songs you get enough uses per day.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crimsonwolf 02-09-07, 03:49 AM	what is honestly the best race to play bard with?
CaoSlayer 02-09-07, 04:32 AM	What kind of bard do you want? Every race have good and bad points. In few words: Half-elf -> diplomat bard superb with his substitution levels from races of fate I think, otherwise isnt a very good race. elf -> archer and/or caster bard -> with a -2 to con and d6 of hp you dont want to be in front lines, elves are good archer bards because they can use long bows while other bards would have to spend a feat or multiclass. A grey elf is good if you dont mind attacking cause a +2 int is good for skills. halfling -> Those guys are nice but they dont get nothing a bard could use, they are too small for weapons and dont get any kind of benefit for a spellcaster. The can be average casters because the dex bonus is always nice and being smaller makes you a little harder to hit (a +2 to AC vs being an human). Human -> always a good race and one of the best for a bard with access with lots of splat books because a bard is always feat-thirsty, a bard that starts with focus enchantment and greater focus enchantment is fearsome at low levels also an archer bard could start with the mandatory point blank shot and precise shot. Gnome -> best caster race IMO, again small size and weapons is bad, gnomes are great casters bards because they get a free focus with illusions and are very hard to kill with a +2 con while being the -2 str not important. Dwarf, Half-orc -> if you roll good stats they can be a very good option, specially dwarves being one of the best melee bards being medium size with a con bonus those are hard to kill, the +2 to saves is wonderful and if you are a whip wielder the stability bonus is very nice. If you focus in str, dex and con and just place a 14 in charisma you can work nicely using spells without saves, mainly buffs like haste, heroism and your songs, also if you go into warchanter prc with just a couple levels of bard you can have just a 12 in charisma since you will get almost no spellcasting but you will be an almost full singer. Half-Orc: Dont laught
The_Shaman 02-09-07, 04:43 AM	Would LA races be included? Half-fey bards are imo great, although the LA+2 can slow your progression somewhat. Still, it's a powerful race despite the LA and the abilities have a terrific synergy with bard. You will have a HP problem, though, so plan on not getting in battle. Feytouched (+1) is okay, but nothing that great. Some of the genasi (I think fire had a charisma bonus) or aasimar could also work.
CaoSlayer 02-09-07, 08:06 AM	well, the thing is that both songs and spellcasting that are bard primary features are very hurt with LA just like pure caster so playing a race with LA can be fun that is the focus of the game but you are gimping yourself.
The_Shaman 02-09-07, 10:22 AM	To a certain point, yes, but imo bard is much less vulnerable to "lost levels" than a wizard or sorcerer: they get their higher level spells sooner, they can use the majority of their songs with 1-2 levels less (2 less songs per level isn't that bad if you get artist/extra music/or just can sing 10 times anyway, and the ability/stat bonuses can often compensate for the skills (the bard's third important feature). It's always a tradeoff, but (imo of course) a LA race hurts a bard much less than a wizard. If it gives charisma bonus, additional abilities (spell-likes or not) and perhaps a bonus to skills the bard is interested in, imo it could be worth it. Of course, it depends on the template... but as far as they go, half-fey is a rather powerful one. Also, being able to access different types through alter self (a potentially powerful bard spell) can be worth it: there are some great fey and outsiders with up to 5 HDs. Anyway, from the standard races I'd prefer human, half-elf or gnome - it's a favored class and each of them, as CaoSlayer pointed out, bring something very good to the bard.
kadeity 02-09-07, 10:39 AM	Human. extra music@1st level, and still a feat to spare.
CaoSlayer 02-09-07, 02:21 PM	To a certain point, yes, but imo bard is much less vulnerable to "lost levels" than a wizard or sorcerer: they get their higher level spells sooner, they can use the majority of their songs with 1-2 levels less (2 less songs per level isn't that bad if you get artist/extra music/or just can sing 10 times anyway, and the ability/stat bonuses can often compensate for the skills (the bard's third important feature). It's always a tradeoff, but (imo of course) a LA race hurts a bard much less than a wizard. If it gives charisma bonus, additional abilities (spell-likes or not) and perhaps a bonus to skills the bard is interested in, imo it could be worth it. Of course, it depends on the template... but as far as they go, half-fey is a rather powerful one. Also, being able to access different types through alter self (a potentially powerful bard spell) can be worth it: there are some great fey and outsiders with up to 5 HDs. Anyway, from the standard races I'd prefer human, half-elf or gnome - it's a favored class and each of them, as CaoSlayer pointed out, bring something very good to the bard. I disagre by the same reason, the spell progresion, while they get a bunch of spells earlier others are very delayed.. In the mid-long run the race´s SLA and stuff usually become watered down at higher levels specially compared with the stuff you should got if you kept as a low level LA, including most time a whole higher spell level available. Also multiclassing or geting some levels in a prestige can be more worth. So high LA races are a bothersome at low levels because you lacks the hp and skills of a pure class and become a true pain at higher levels as I have already said. The only classes that have not any trouble with high LA are those that dont offer anything special at highest levels neither have spellcasting, I Dont know any high LA class worth being able to cast two extra Otto´s dance and know three/four extra lower level spells.
CaoSlayer 02-09-07, 02:23 PM	Human. extra music@1st level, and still a feat to spare. umm, extra music only is a good feat if you are going to get a lot of bardic music feats like lyric spell or ironskin chant, otherwise isnt that good because you dont need to spend more that one song per combat at low levels and by the time you have two combat songs you get enough uses per day.