Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-30-06, 12:41 PM	Hey all, I have a (novice) player who is playing a 4th level bard. I try to give her a lot of social interaction opportunities, and she appreciates that, but when push comes to shove (read: combat), she feels like she doesn't have a lot to contribute. I have helped her make her feat choices, and she is pretty good with a crossbow at this point, but I think she feels like her spells are underpowered and lackluster compared to the druids and the wizard. So I am trying to think of progressions that will make her feel more... well, potent. A level of fighter at 5th level would get her another feat (rapid shot) and make her a better archer (with a switch to shortbow). But she could get that at 6th level as a bard anyway, so is it worth it? I think it might be, since she could pick up weapon finesse as the other feat and start wielding a rapier for a big increase in her melee potency. But, she seems more captivated by spells. So what kinds of progressions would make sense for her? Are there any good bard prestige classes? I generally prefer to stick with core rulebooks, but none of the DMG prestige classes seem to offer much to bards. Because of that, I would consider ideas from other official sources as well, as long as they are balanced. Any good multi-classing ideas are welcomed, too. Please note that we've been playing for about a year and they are 4th level, and at that rate they aren't going to be 10th level anytime soon, so I'm looking for ideas that will make a noticeable difference over the next few levels (say, by 6th or 7th level). Thanks, folks.
meabolex 05-30-06, 12:48 PM	What are your spell choices at level 4 (0th, 1st, 2nd level spells)? What are your ability scores? Are you using bardic music virtually every combat? Have you tried using a whip? (A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. This means you can use a shortbow without needing a fighter level.) Edit: oh, you'd switch to shortbow to use rapid shot, nevermind about the shortbow thing (: Edit2: why not just go to a composite bow if you've got a fighter level?
CzarGarrett 05-30-06, 01:15 PM	I'd almost say that for a 6th level feat, get Leadership. A buff-tastic Bard with a few followers and a cohort can be quite a formidible opponent. As for PrC's, there's a handful in Complete Adventurer. Some go for more spells, some for more music. Either can be good. Bard spells aren't supposed to be super high powered- they're more utility spells to make the good fighter a great fighter, to keep the wizard a little safer, etc, etc.
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-30-06, 01:25 PM	Hey meabolex, Thanks for the prompt! Abilities: Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 17 Spells: 0: detect magic, read magic, mage hand, message 1: sleep, cure light wounds, comprehend languages 2: mirror image, sound burst Yes, she uses inspire courage nearly every combat. She hasn't tried a whip. I don't think that fits her image of her character. To address your comment about the shortbow: I understand that a bard can use a shortbow, but she uses a crossbow now because she doesn't have rapid shot yet. Thus she currently gives up a move action in order to get the extra damage. Since rapid shot won't do her any good with a crossbow (at least not without rapid reload, which she doesn't have and probably won't spend a feat slot on), she'll switch to shortbow when she gets rapid shot. Of course, if she did get a level of fighter, then she could go with a longbow instead of a shortbow. As a support combatant who will focus on ranged attacks, that seems to be a good idea. But there may well be better progressions for her; I am definitely not a very adept min-maxer/character builder/powergamer/rules lawyer/D&D wonk. But I know where to go to get good ideas! :) Thanks!
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-30-06, 01:29 PM	Hey Moose God, I agree that leadership might be a good feat for her. It's a very different direction to go, but it's certainly in the mix. The party has two druids and a ranger with animal companions, and a wizard with a familiar. Only the bard and the monk lack lackeys. :P
CaoSlayer 05-30-06, 01:50 PM	In few words: check my guide on the link. In many words: her spell list sucks a bit, sound burst isnt very strong and sleep it is becoming useless by that level. Cure light wounds it more effective as a wand, with just 750gp you get enough charges so she can forget about casting the real spell. She have a good charisma and wants to be focused on spells, check the sublime chord on complete arcane so she gets a bard able to cast as nearly as good as a sorcerer without losing almost nothing. She shouldnt try to spread feats and spells since she gets few and she only can sing/cast/or swing a weapon at a time. The clue of a good caster bard it is her spell list, take a look at it and see how many of the bard spells are one level higher on the sorcerer list, that means that the spell it is very powerful, tasha hideous laughter can dissable a nenemy for a whole fight and it is just level 1, hold person it is a save or die, later confusion can screw a large group of enemies, ect. A bard just taking school focus: enchant,greater focus: enchant and two enchant spells per level it is a very powerful character. Wait a bit, I going to post you my recomended level 1-2 spell list (Core). I have removed many useless and have bolded the most powerful/useful ones. Definitions: Tool: have uses outside combat Mage: it is a ofensive spell that uses reflex or fort saves and so it is designed for dealing with mages Fighter: it is a ofensive spell that uses reflex or will saves and it is designed for dealing with warriors Buffer: it is used for getting a special advantage in combat single: only afects one target multi: affects multiple targets or an area of effect being perfect against groups of minions healing: restores hp or cures an effect. 1ST-LEVEL BARD SPELLS Charm Person: Tool. Single Fighter. A classical spell usefull at any level, one of the best level 1 spells. Becomes obsolete with charm monster. Comprehend Languages: Tool. A bard really dont need to learn this spell cause they can learn any language very easily. But it is always good to have a scroll or two just in case. Cure Light Wounds: Healing. The first healing spell, it is a must have in low levels specially if your party lacks a cleric. If you start the game at mid-high levels, you will not miss this spell specially if you buy a wand. Disguise Self: Tool. Isnt a bad spell, but gets obsolete fast against alter self. you can keep a scroll until you learn alter self. Expeditious Retreat: Buffer. The best bard´s level 1 buffer. this is a spell useful in almost any combat for both attack and defense. its best use it is with an archer with the feat manyshot allowing you to move 50-60 feets and still do 2-4 attacks. Feather Fall: Tool. ALWAYS have a scroll of this at hand. If you need it and you dont have it, you will be dead. Grease: Tool, Multi, Mage, Fighter, Buffer. This is a really good multi-task spell; Use it specially against highly armoured oponents, they will fall to the ground for sure. I also like to use it as a prepared action against a mage. Hideous Laughter: Single Fighter The best ofensive level 1 spell, is almost as good as the new hold person because dont allows more that one save althrough you cant CDG Hypnotism: Tool. Multi. Fighter. Have the higher HD limit for this level and it is a reduced sugestion. When the bard learns sugestion, this spell becomes obsolete. Identify M: Tool. Althrough requires an expensible gem component specially at low levels, it is a very useful spell. Alway try to have a couple of scrolls availables. Silent Image: Tool. This is the most simplest illusion and it is good to have if you wants to. my favourite use it is to create an illusory stone wall. Sleep: Multi. Fighter It is a spell really usefull until character level 3, after that, HD it is too few for afecting someone. Summon Monster I: Single, Tool. Maybe this is the only useful summon monster for a bard and still isnt very good. I mainly use it for triggering traps. Undetectable Alignment: Tool. Godly spell, allows you to play with your evil vampire bard in the party with the paladin of Pelor. Ever a scrow can save you when combine with disguise self or alter self (You can become by example a drow and mages wouldnt be able to dectect you). Ventriloquism: Tool. It is best used in combination with silent imagen and/or invisibility allowing to fool people guarding a door "Ey!! Im here, catch me" 2ND-LEVEL BARD SPELLS Alter Self: Buffer. Single Tool. This spell both overslaps and superates Diguise self (true sight dont dispell it) and it is a great buffer, you can become lots of creatures with special advantages like a lizard folk for +5 natural AC or an Avariel [ejem, FR] for wings. Remember that you can change to creatures of your same type, so this is a specially good spell if your character it is a monstruous humanoid or a magical beast. Also the duration it is very good. Animal Messenger: Tool. ummm, a pure tool spell to keep one or two scrolls but never worth to learn. Blindness/Deafness: Single mage. Permanent duration it is a good thing, non somatic it is another good thing and being able to have two diferent effects it is godly. A blind mage cant target spells in you. Blur: Buffer. Single It is a great spell... but gets totally obsolete against blink and displacement get it if you arent planning in getting one of those. Calm Emotions: Healing. Multi Fighter. It is a very good spell, can keep enemies for attacking you and can counter an enemy´s bard. But the duration based in concentration ruins it. Cure Moderate Wounds: Healing. Single Get it if you havent got cure light wounds. If you have got it, there are too many useful spells at level 2 to "waste" a slot for this spell. Detect Thoughts: Tool.Multi A very usefull spell for all kind of situations, like dectecting enemies behind a door or knowing if a shopkeeper it is cheating you. Glitterdust: Tool, Multi Fighter In my opinion this spell was superior to see invisibility in 3.0 and know having it at level 3 becomes a king spell. dispells inv and blinds various enemies. Heroism: Single. like cat crace but the bonuses are for all skills, attacks and saves, althrough no bonus to AC and iniciative this spell lasts 10 times longer. Hold Person: Single Fighter With the one save per round this spell have become very less useful, but still if you have a well coordinate party, you can CDG them before the second save. Minor Image: Silent imagen + ghost sound, it is nice but not worth if you taked the previous two spells. Mirror Image: Buffer simple. This is a great protection spell against spell casters who wouldnt be able to use single targered spells against you (like power word stun) but it is weak against high level fighters Rage: Multi Buffer this lesser rage really sucks compared with heroism specially because needs concentration at least it is multi-targered. Shatter: Tool, single Fighter. This spell it is the terror of low level fighters, you can easily destroy a full plate mail. outside combat it is a minor knock, you can destroy a non-heavy door or a lock. Silence: Multi-single Mage tool. King spell, this spell allows to disable a caster without a save, have a great duration and if you cast it in a gappling fighter o monk will unable any kind of caster. Summon Swarm: Multi mage. I underated this spell because I wasnt able to understand the new swarm type, this spell will be one of the best summons available to a bard because cause damage without rolls and also the swarms have some good effects based in fort save. Tongues: Tool. See comprehend languages.
Vrellum 05-30-06, 01:51 PM	Bard spells are not as powerful as wizards or druid spells and you can't change that. However there are some good spells on the bard list. Some good low level bard spells are: grease and (if you go against humanoids) tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter. Grease doesn't do damage itself, but: A)creatures in the area of effect must make a save or fall prone. While prone their AC is 4 points lower. Standing from prone or crawling away provokes an attack of opportunity. B)Creatures that make their save and have fewer than 5 ranks in balance lose their dex bonus to AC and (among other things) subject to sneak attack damage. C)In order to move out of the area they must make a balance check DC 10. If they fail they can't move and if they fail by 5 or more they fall prone. All in all a great spell. Bardic music is pretty good. There's a feat in the Eberron Campaign setting that gives it a nice boost (Song of the Heart). Sleep might be a good choice too if they are going to remain low level for a long time or if they will continue to fight creatures with 4 or fewer HD. Glitterdust (detect invis and potentially blind opponents), invisibility, silence (not useful as often, but it can be devastating) and alter self are all good 2 nd level spell. So is suggestion. Playing a bard (and being satisfied with it) requires a person to spend quite a few resources on improving the party. Start combat off with an area effect spell like grease or glitterdust. The next round follow up with bardic music (an advantage of starting bardic music in the second round is it give the druid a chance to summon creatures who will also benefit from the song if they are present when she starts). Letting swap a feat for Song of the Heart would significantly improve her music (+2 to hit and damage instead of +1, and it scales) Use things like tanglefoot bags to slow opponents. In combat, provided there are other front liners, she could stand back and try to trip someone with her whip. Though I would rather try to find some way to do some damage. I think bards don't get enough feats to become good archers, unless they chose nothing but archery feats. Even then they need really good scores or they'll only be passable at best. Give her a reach weapon so she can stay out of the threat range of most creatures (maybe a spear) and she can still attack in melee. Her hp and AC should be good enough to survive if something does take a swat at her, she will just have to know when to fall back when the time comes. I don't know how much you are going to let her rework her character, but I would go with something like: 0 level: Prestidigitation, Message, Read Magic, Light 1st level: Grease, Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter, Cure Light Wounds 2nd level: Glitterdust, Invisibility I think she gets another couple more 0 and 1st level spells and if healing is plentiful (either through characters or wands) she could drop CLW and pick something that she would like to use. For feats, I'd encourae her to take: Song of the Heart and Improved Initiative If she wins initiative this gives her a chance to set her spear to receive the charge and do double damage, which will hopefully be a respectable amount. After she does her spells and music, suggest she use a spear to attack things that lack reach from behind the party's fighter-types.
CaoSlayer 05-30-06, 02:04 PM	Bard spells are not as powerful as wizards or druid spells and you can't change that. However there are some good spells on the bard list. Some good low level bard spells are: grease and (if you go against humanoids) tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter 1º You can change it with being a sublime chord. 2º Im talking about how bards can get spells from a level higher for a wizard in the same spell level, a wizard cant cast tasha hideus laught as a level 1 spell unlike a bard, also a wizard cant cast cure wound spells. If you build well a bard you can have a list that will be wizard´s envy. of course a wizard will end having more powerful spells otherwise would be no reason to be a wizard but a bard can get spells with the same power than a level 8 wizard spell just using a level 6 slot.
Vrellum 05-30-06, 02:30 PM	1º You can change it with being a sublime chord. 2º Im talking about how bards can get spells from a level higher for a wizard in the same spell level, a wizard cant cast tasha hideus laught as a level 1 spell unlike a bard, also a wizard cant cast cure wound spells. If you build well a bard you can have a list that will be wizard´s envy. of course a wizard will end having more powerful spells otherwise would be no reason to be a wizard but a bard can get spells with the same power than a level 8 wizard spell just using a level 6 slot. 1) Then you're not a bard anymore you are a sublime chord and you are not drawing spells from the bard list. 2) Bards do get some pretty good spells I think we agree on that. One problem with getting them at lower level is they are easier to save against. Another problem is because of the bards slow spell progression they don't get things that early, even if they are lower level. But in general I agree with your advice on how to improve her character.
meabolex 05-30-06, 03:09 PM	Str 10 (2) Dex 14 (6) Con 12 (4) Int 14 (6) Wis 8 (0) Cha 17 (10) + 1 I assume you started with a 16 Cha and dumped a stat point there, so 28 point buy. You're definitely focused around bard casting, and while that's (to some extent) fine, long term you may want to look at buffing your other stats. I'd probably put the level 8 stat point in Cha and start dumping points in Con or Dex. While you've been playing a while, Constitution is usually the MVP stat for bards in terms of survivability. Fort's a weak save and hit points are hard to come by. You'll probably want to invest in good magic armor and a mithril buckler (and heavier shield too) ASAP. 0: detect magic, read magic, mage hand, message 1: sleep, cure light wounds, comprehend languages 2: mirror image, sound burst Spell selection for the bard (much like the sorcerer) tends to be rather difficult. While you're not in a "fix" yet, you definitely need to approach spell selection very carefully. Pick spells that make use of your higher DC -- meaning less defensive buffs and more offense. For instance, you have no 0th level offensive spell. Daze, while not an insanely powerful spell, could have helped you quite a bit when used in a team environment from levels 1-3. At this point though, it's probably not worth taking. Grease has been mentioned as a very effective combat trick, and it uses your (fairly high) Cha modifier better than CLW and comprehend language. While I'm sure you probably have a roleplaying justification for taking comprehend language, I'll probably say that was a mistake to take at the very early levels. Sleep is a fine spell for early play, but it definitely gets dated. A spell like lesser confusion is almost always effective in combat and gives a monster/NPC a high chance to do something odd that they wouldn't do normally. You'll definitely want a handful of attack spells (like grease, lesser confusion, glitterdust) that use all 3 saves (reflex, will, fortitude) and use them on the corresponding types of mobs (reflex for heavy armor/undead, will for sneaky looking, fortitude for casters). There's no first-level fort save spell in the PH (what a shame!), so you can probably find one in some supplement somewhere. Unless your party is healing light (no cleric) or your campaign world has tons of undead, I'd recommend against getting CLW until at least 5th level (or substituting a 1st level spell out at 8th level -- however, you'll need to swap out sleep at 8th level most likely). Unless you're fighting undead, your Cha modifier won't help CLW out. She hasn't tried a whip. I don't think that fits her image of her character. I'm not really that big into letting backstory and "character identity" remove the effectiveness of my characters. I know plenty of people who do that, but I think it's counterproductive. The whip is simply a combat trick to disarm/trip bad guys at a range. I don't think of it as a statement of character to use a particular weapon -- I just see using a whip as simply a utilization of resources available. Keep in mind other characters have to take a feat just to be proficient with the whip. As a support combatant who will focus on ranged attacks, that seems to be a good idea. Yeah, bards tend to do a lot of ranged combat (I prefer holy bows myself), but you'll always want to be ready for melee. Be sure to carry a spare longsword and a shield (mithril buckler at least, heavy shield in a pinch) in case you get in melee. Sometimes giving a rogue a flanking bonus can really support the party.
CaoSlayer 05-30-06, 03:13 PM	The thing is that the idea of bards getting some spells earlier it is to have them get some spells the same time that a sorcerer. Bt example a bard can learn hideous laughter at level 2 when a sorcerer cant until level 4, then a bard can get hold person at level 4 when a sorcerer have to waith to level 6, a bard can get confusion at level 7 when a sorcerer cant until level 8 then a bard can get umm, dominate person at level 10 just when a sorcerer get it at level 10 then a bard have to wait up to level 13 for getting greater dispell magic when a sorcerer get it at level 12 and finally a bard gets otto´s dance at level 16 when a sorcerer get it exactly at that level. So as you can see you get the chance to cast some spells at a range of one level apart a sorcerer. being the save just a -1 lesser but since they are lower level spells you can do funny things like creating a wand of dominate person or using a level 4 spell in a storing weapon, dont talk about buying a cheap rod of maximize and using it with otto´s dance while a wizard have to use a greater rod.
Linklegacy77 05-30-06, 03:25 PM	The biggest problem here is that, said novice player who wants to be good at combat, picked one of the worst combat classes. You should probobly sit down and talk to her, and ask her: what's most important to you in the game, the roleplaying fun, or the combat fun, and talk about what you can do to fix it. If she'd rather focus on combat, you might want to let her switch characters.