Bard replacement? need help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard replacement? need help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
elven warriorXX
10-22-05, 06:38 PM The bard class is not really that good in terms of flavor. I was wondering IF I could replace the bard with a Mage class that uses Spell points to cast spells (like the Psion). Will this new Mage ruin the game? If the Mage idea is good then how many Spell points would it have? I was thinking as well that it will use Elemental magic based around the 4 elements and they can speicalize in Element to gain either more spells known (will learn spells like a wizard) or more Spell Points per day that can only be used on the Chosen element. Post your ideas (either bad or good).
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-22-05, 06:52 PM O_o How is it not good in terms of flavor?

Besides that, I'm playing a spell point bard right now and my only complaint is crap for spell points.
elven warriorXX
10-22-05, 09:22 PM O_o How is it not good in terms of flavor?

Besides that, I'm playing a spell point bard right now and my only complaint is crap for spell points.
Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic. If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered. And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard? Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them? Do they work better then the WOTC magic system? :P sorry I Question a lot
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-22-05, 09:49 PM Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic.
Huh?

If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered.
Start by laughing long and hard at your players. The bard is powerful in a way that no other class can really match: control. With proficiency in the best tripping/disarming weapon made (whip), a slew of mind effecting spells that hinder, stop, or control your opponents and other spells that buff the party and summon monsters, the bard can easily control not only when and where battle happens, but on what terms.

And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard?
There is no balance between sorcerer and wizard. The wizard wins hands down. Sponantious casting isn't as powerful as people pretend. Making the sorc a spell point caster helps him a lot, but crap skills and gimpped spell progression still bury him.

Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them?
Spell points let you cast more organically. Instead of tiers of spell levels and slots, you just have a pool of energy. Its simple and pure, not moronic like the Vancian system.

Do they work better then the WOTC magic system?
I'm guessing you mean Vancian Casting, so yes, its much better.
elven warriorXX
10-22-05, 10:18 PM Huh?lol crap typos :P I ment a non MUSICAL side to magic :D (man I look like an idot right now..)

Start by laughing long and hard at your players. The bard is powerful in a way that no other class can really match: control. With proficiency in the best tripping/disarming weapon made (whip), a slew of mind effecting spells that hinder, stop, or control your opponents and other spells that buff the party and summon monsters, the bard can easily control not only when and where battle happens, but on what terms.
Okay thanks :) that makes me think better of the bard. But he still does not fit well as a PC class...maybe as a NPC class...

There is no balance between sorcerer and wizard. The wizard wins hands down. Sponantious casting isn't as powerful as people pretend. Making the sorc a spell point caster helps him a lot, but crap skills and gimpped spell progression still bury him. Will making a new class that uses spell points make people want to choose it more then either the wizard or the sorcerer. And what would happen if i gave the Wizard the ability to use spells points?(he will still be able to learn spells like a normal wizard does).

Spell points let you cast more organically. Instead of tiers of spell levels and slots, you just have a pool of energy. Its simple and pure, not moronic like the Vancian system. But i think the Vancian system fits the Wizard well, it has the feel of the wizard. Maybe just making all Spont-casters use spells points will make the game better :)

I'm guessing you mean Vancian Casting, so yes, its much better.Okay thanks and it does not overpower much? :P I care a LOT about balance in my game.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-22-05, 10:41 PM lol crap typos :P I ment a non MUSICAL side to magic :D (man I look like an idot right now..)
Okay, think words instead of just music. Someone who knows the secret words and sounds that unlock power just as much as a wizard does.

Okay thanks :) that makes me think better of the bard. But he still does not fit well as a PC class...maybe as a NPC class...
If you allow illusionist wizards or enchanter wizards, the Bard can fit.

Will making a new class that uses spell points make people want to choose it more then either the wizard or the sorcerer. And what would happen if i gave the Wizard the ability to use spells points?(he will still be able to learn spells like a normal wizard does).
I'd love to say yes, but people tend to lack sense. As for the wizard thing, he still has to prep, the only difference is that now he can prep a lot of little ones or a few BIG ones. He's still a loser who takes way too much game time selecting his daily spells.

But i think the Vancian system fits the Wizard well, it has the feel of the wizard. Maybe just making all Spont-casters use spells points will make the game better :)
Like I said, no matter what you do, that spellbook will eat valuable gaming time.

Okay thanks and it does not overpower much? :P I care a LOT about balance in my game.
Balance doesn't really change. If they cast a lot of high levels, they end up tapped before the last encounters for the day.
TinManFan
10-22-05, 10:50 PM For a more elemental side for magic, go for the Shugenja class. (Complete Divine) Very into elements and easy to convert to a spell point system. Might wanna add some more class features. Maybe some of the Elemental Savant goodies, or just make the ES a natural choice for Shu's to go into. As for people choosing them over wiz and sorc, their spells known are rather low, and 1/2 of them having to come from a favored element sticks ya. Also a limited Spell list keeps them flavorful but not primary material. The selling point is their ability to get usually Divine/Arcane only spells in the same caster.

As for Bards being underpowered or whatever, Phuh. Like I always say, read the Races of Destiny Racial Sub lvls for the Half Elf Bard and tell me the Bard is not broken. (Damn my hide for picking Human as my Bard's race w/o reading more carefully)
elven warriorXX
10-22-05, 11:01 PM Okay, think words instead of just music. Someone who knows the secret words and sounds that unlock power just as much as a wizard does.I see...Like the magic from the Eragon books :)

If you allow illusionist wizards or enchanter wizards, the Bard can fit.No speicalist wizards. Instead wizards can specialize by new feats and PrCs.

I'd love to say yes, but people tend to lack sense. As for the wizard thing, he still has to prep, the only difference is that now he can prep a lot of little ones or a few BIG ones. He's still a loser who takes way too much game time selecting his daily spells.Yes the prep time is a lot. But what if giving wizards the ability to cast up to 5 spells in lower level spells? Will that unbalance them?

Like I said, no matter what you do, that spellbook will eat valuable gaming time.How could I make that time shorter?

Balance doesn't really change. If they cast a lot of high levels, they end up tapped before the last encounters for the day.Okay I see that SP have a down side too.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer
10-23-05, 05:35 AM Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic. If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered. And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard? Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them? Do they work better then the WOTC magic system? :P sorry I Question a lot

I can't believe any of that was written.

The bard is one of the most versatile and unique classes. Not only can it be powerful, but it can go over and above that.

Medium BAB, spellcasting in light armor, moderate BAB, moderate spellcasting, above adverage skill points, below adverage HP, plus Bardic music for buffing and control.

So let's start with skill points. How often can you end an encounter with a Diplomacy or Bluff roll? As a Bard, very easily. The only resource this costs is the skill points devoted to it. Social abilities can end encounters with intellegent beings without the loss of HP, spells, or any other resource.

Most would compare the Rogue for that function, so let's continue. The light armor, HP, and Medium BAB make them Roguelike as well.

So when looking at the Rogue versus the Bard, the difference is in the spells and the special abilities.

Bards get spells. Their spells and abilities are generally best in enhancing a group or themselves. Heroism enhances +2 to hit, saves, and skill checks for 10 min per level. This is generally better than Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace. not just for the longer duration, but for the multiple areas it enhances. Alter Self can transform a Bard into a high Natural Armor humanoid (such as the Trogalyte with +6 Natural Armor). Good Hope adds +2 to Attack/Damage/Skills/saves for 1 min per level. He also has Haste. Improved Invisibility, Greater Heroism, and Hero's Feast are all great buff spells.

Not only does a Bard get buff spells, he also gets Cure spells. It is amazing how often people need extra healing in a party. Cure spells also deal damage to undead (which the bard is less effective against).

While the Bard does have illusion magic (silence, mirror image, displacement, shadow magic) generally he will never be as good as a wizard. I don't recommend devoting too much to this class of magic, but don't think it is useless.

Now comparing the special abilites of the Rogue versus the Bard is comparing apples to oranges. They are nothing alike. Rogues focus on dealing and avoiding damage. Bards focus is on controlling sentiants and buffing.

The balance in comparing the two classes is a feat from Complete Warrior, Arcane Strike. Sacrifice a spell to deal +1 to hit and + 1d4 damage per level sacrifced with all of your attacks that round.

So A Bard under Haste making three attacks per round with a longsword could add many 4 sided dice to his attack. This attack can be used against creature that the rogue cannot sneak attack (such as golems and oozes). SO that 4th level spell sacrifice at 13th level would get up to 16d4 aditional damage while under Hatse and all attacks hit. That's significant.

I am not trying to downplau the buffing aspect. The Inspire Courage is useful at low and high levels, adding a bonus to every attack/damage from everyone in the party. At 5th level, that is adding +5 damage from 5 party members. At 10th level it is adding +30 damage if every attack hits while under Haste. Etc. Inspire Greatness adds +2 to hit and bonus HD. The bonus HD is useful for front line fighters and for low HP Bards/Rogues/Arcane Casters. The higher the level, the more people effected. Inspire heroics adds directly to defense with Saves and AC. Again, front line fighters and low AC individuals will appriciate your abilities.

It is unfortunate your party cannot see the benefit from such a character. At low levels, you make the party more effective. At higher levels, you can stand on your own as easily as they can.
Tenreo
10-23-05, 09:25 AM The use of a bard depends on the game. Some DMs place less emphasis on diplomacy rolls, or disallow them entirely, believing that diplomacy should be roleplayed, not rollplayed (or is it the other way round? I can never remember..). Suggestion and similaer effects are sometimes similarly nerfed, simply because the DM isn't sure how powerful they should be. When allowed, however, they are VERY effective
Even when diplomacy/suggestion are nerfed, the bard has it's uses. It is a good buffer,a decent healer, and a passable illusionist. While not amazing in any single role (becides diplomacy), it is decent in almost all of them. It is widely agknowledged that this makes it a good "5th party member", but this also makes it an ideal in a party with less than four members.
elven warriorXX
10-23-05, 11:33 AM The use of a bard depends on the game. Some DMs place less emphasis on diplomacy rolls, or disallow them entirely, believing that diplomacy should be roleplayed, not rollplayed (or is it the other way round? I can never remember..). Suggestion and similaer effects are sometimes similarly nerfed, simply because the DM isn't sure how powerful they should be. When allowed, however, they are VERY effective
Even when diplomacy/suggestion are nerfed, the bard has it's uses. It is a good buffer,a decent healer, and a passable illusionist. While not amazing in any single role (becides diplomacy), it is decent in almost all of them. It is widely agknowledged that this makes it a good "5th party member", but this also makes it an ideal in a party with less than four members.
Yes I don't like the idea of a Diplomacy skill so I nerfed it. I want Diplomacy to be based on how well the players roleplay. And If the do a very good job on it not only do they get the king to give them those 5 fighters for charging into a drow outpost, but I give them some extra XP for good work :)
legophreak
10-23-05, 11:59 AM Yes I don't like the idea of a Diplomacy skill so I nerfed it. I want Diplomacy to be based on how well the players roleplay. And If the do a very good job on it not only do they get the king to give them those 5 fighters for charging into a drow outpost, but I give them some extra XP for good work :)

Our game, we roll the Diplomacy check, and then the person " roleplays " it out based on how well he rolled. If he rolls a 5, he stutters, and fumbles his words, and such. But if he rolls like a 15, then he's all clear, and well spoken, and if he beat the DC, the people respond, and the attitude changes as described.

Do it as you may, but there is no reason why you can't have both worlds with this. And yes, the Bard is usually always the Diplomat with the Paladin right behind him going, " uhh huh..what he said.."
elven warriorXX
10-23-05, 04:04 PM Our game, we roll the Diplomacy check, and then the person " roleplays " it out based on how well he rolled. If he rolls a 5, he stutters, and fumbles his words, and such. But if he rolls like a 15, then he's all clear, and well spoken, and if he beat the DC, the people respond, and the attitude changes as described.

Do it as you may, but there is no reason why you can't have both worlds with this. And yes, the Bard is usually always the Diplomat with the Paladin right behind him going, " uhh huh..what he said.."
Lol :) Okay now I see that the bard is like a noble that can control people and monsters as well as help alies. That fits a little better. Oh and About the new mage class (which is the 2nd reason why I started this thread) here is a bit of what i thought of so far. I want them to use at lest 325 at 20th level and have the Sorcerer use the psion's PP table as their SP table. I am thinking of having mages be able to cast any spell they know (even if they can't normal cast spells of that level) by making a SpellCraft check that uses this formulae DC15 + (Spell Level x 3) - Caster's Level-spellcraft ranks-int mod. So that a 3rd level caster with 5 ranks in SC and an int of 17(-3) trys to cast a 3rd level spell has to roll a 17 to cast it. IF they fail they take spells level+d4 of Subdual damage and can not try to cast a spell that they normally could not untill they get 8 hours of rest (or 4 for elfs). It will still cost Spell points to cast the spell even if the check fails (it also cost 1 more point per spell level). What you think?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elven warriorXX 10-22-05, 06:38 PM	The bard class is not really that good in terms of flavor. I was wondering IF I could replace the bard with a Mage class that uses Spell points to cast spells (like the Psion). Will this new Mage ruin the game? If the Mage idea is good then how many Spell points would it have? I was thinking as well that it will use Elemental magic based around the 4 elements and they can speicalize in Element to gain either more spells known (will learn spells like a wizard) or more Spell Points per day that can only be used on the Chosen element. Post your ideas (either bad or good).
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-05, 06:52 PM	O_o How is it not good in terms of flavor? Besides that, I'm playing a spell point bard right now and my only complaint is crap for spell points.
elven warriorXX 10-22-05, 09:22 PM	O_o How is it not good in terms of flavor? Besides that, I'm playing a spell point bard right now and my only complaint is crap for spell points. Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic. If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered. And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard? Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them? Do they work better then the WOTC magic system? :P sorry I Question a lot
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-05, 09:49 PM	Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic. Huh? If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered. Start by laughing long and hard at your players. The bard is powerful in a way that no other class can really match: control. With proficiency in the best tripping/disarming weapon made (whip), a slew of mind effecting spells that hinder, stop, or control your opponents and other spells that buff the party and summon monsters, the bard can easily control not only when and where battle happens, but on what terms. And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard? There is no balance between sorcerer and wizard. The wizard wins hands down. Sponantious casting isn't as powerful as people pretend. Making the sorc a spell point caster helps him a lot, but crap skills and gimpped spell progression still bury him. Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them? Spell points let you cast more organically. Instead of tiers of spell levels and slots, you just have a pool of energy. Its simple and pure, not moronic like the Vancian system. Do they work better then the WOTC magic system? I'm guessing you mean Vancian Casting, so yes, its much better.
elven warriorXX 10-22-05, 10:18 PM	Huh?lol crap typos :P I ment a non MUSICAL side to magic :D (man I look like an idot right now..) Start by laughing long and hard at your players. The bard is powerful in a way that no other class can really match: control. With proficiency in the best tripping/disarming weapon made (whip), a slew of mind effecting spells that hinder, stop, or control your opponents and other spells that buff the party and summon monsters, the bard can easily control not only when and where battle happens, but on what terms. Okay thanks :) that makes me think better of the bard. But he still does not fit well as a PC class...maybe as a NPC class... There is no balance between sorcerer and wizard. The wizard wins hands down. Sponantious casting isn't as powerful as people pretend. Making the sorc a spell point caster helps him a lot, but crap skills and gimpped spell progression still bury him. Will making a new class that uses spell points make people want to choose it more then either the wizard or the sorcerer. And what would happen if i gave the Wizard the ability to use spells points?(he will still be able to learn spells like a normal wizard does). Spell points let you cast more organically. Instead of tiers of spell levels and slots, you just have a pool of energy. Its simple and pure, not moronic like the Vancian system. But i think the Vancian system fits the Wizard well, it has the feel of the wizard. Maybe just making all Spont-casters use spells points will make the game better :) I'm guessing you mean Vancian Casting, so yes, its much better.Okay thanks and it does not overpower much? :P I care a LOT about balance in my game.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-05, 10:41 PM	lol crap typos :P I ment a non MUSICAL side to magic :D (man I look like an idot right now..) Okay, think words instead of just music. Someone who knows the secret words and sounds that unlock power just as much as a wizard does. Okay thanks :) that makes me think better of the bard. But he still does not fit well as a PC class...maybe as a NPC class... If you allow illusionist wizards or enchanter wizards, the Bard can fit. Will making a new class that uses spell points make people want to choose it more then either the wizard or the sorcerer. And what would happen if i gave the Wizard the ability to use spells points?(he will still be able to learn spells like a normal wizard does). I'd love to say yes, but people tend to lack sense. As for the wizard thing, he still has to prep, the only difference is that now he can prep a lot of little ones or a few BIG ones. He's still a loser who takes way too much game time selecting his daily spells. But i think the Vancian system fits the Wizard well, it has the feel of the wizard. Maybe just making all Spont-casters use spells points will make the game better :) Like I said, no matter what you do, that spellbook will eat valuable gaming time. Okay thanks and it does not overpower much? :P I care a LOT about balance in my game. Balance doesn't really change. If they cast a lot of high levels, they end up tapped before the last encounters for the day.
TinManFan 10-22-05, 10:50 PM	For a more elemental side for magic, go for the Shugenja class. (Complete Divine) Very into elements and easy to convert to a spell point system. Might wanna add some more class features. Maybe some of the Elemental Savant goodies, or just make the ES a natural choice for Shu's to go into. As for people choosing them over wiz and sorc, their spells known are rather low, and 1/2 of them having to come from a favored element sticks ya. Also a limited Spell list keeps them flavorful but not primary material. The selling point is their ability to get usually Divine/Arcane only spells in the same caster. As for Bards being underpowered or whatever, Phuh. Like I always say, read the Races of Destiny Racial Sub lvls for the Half Elf Bard and tell me the Bard is not broken. (Damn my hide for picking Human as my Bard's race w/o reading more carefully)
elven warriorXX 10-22-05, 11:01 PM	Okay, think words instead of just music. Someone who knows the secret words and sounds that unlock power just as much as a wizard does.I see...Like the magic from the Eragon books :) If you allow illusionist wizards or enchanter wizards, the Bard can fit.No speicalist wizards. Instead wizards can specialize by new feats and PrCs. I'd love to say yes, but people tend to lack sense. As for the wizard thing, he still has to prep, the only difference is that now he can prep a lot of little ones or a few BIG ones. He's still a loser who takes way too much game time selecting his daily spells.Yes the prep time is a lot. But what if giving wizards the ability to cast up to 5 spells in lower level spells? Will that unbalance them? Like I said, no matter what you do, that spellbook will eat valuable gaming time.How could I make that time shorter? Balance doesn't really change. If they cast a lot of high levels, they end up tapped before the last encounters for the day.Okay I see that SP have a down side too.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-23-05, 05:35 AM	Most of my players don't like him and he does not fit into my world. There is no magical side to magic. If I will take the bard How do i fix him up? My players think he is underpowered. And want do you think of my Mage idea?? Will it ruin the balance between the Sorcerer and the wizard? Why do you like spell points? what does work out for you? Why do you like them? Do they work better then the WOTC magic system? :P sorry I Question a lot I can't believe any of that was written. The bard is one of the most versatile and unique classes. Not only can it be powerful, but it can go over and above that. Medium BAB, spellcasting in light armor, moderate BAB, moderate spellcasting, above adverage skill points, below adverage HP, plus Bardic music for buffing and control. So let's start with skill points. How often can you end an encounter with a Diplomacy or Bluff roll? As a Bard, very easily. The only resource this costs is the skill points devoted to it. Social abilities can end encounters with intellegent beings without the loss of HP, spells, or any other resource. Most would compare the Rogue for that function, so let's continue. The light armor, HP, and Medium BAB make them Roguelike as well. So when looking at the Rogue versus the Bard, the difference is in the spells and the special abilities. Bards get spells. Their spells and abilities are generally best in enhancing a group or themselves. Heroism enhances +2 to hit, saves, and skill checks for 10 min per level. This is generally better than Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace. not just for the longer duration, but for the multiple areas it enhances. Alter Self can transform a Bard into a high Natural Armor humanoid (such as the Trogalyte with +6 Natural Armor). Good Hope adds +2 to Attack/Damage/Skills/saves for 1 min per level. He also has Haste. Improved Invisibility, Greater Heroism, and Hero's Feast are all great buff spells. Not only does a Bard get buff spells, he also gets Cure spells. It is amazing how often people need extra healing in a party. Cure spells also deal damage to undead (which the bard is less effective against). While the Bard does have illusion magic (silence, mirror image, displacement, shadow magic) generally he will never be as good as a wizard. I don't recommend devoting too much to this class of magic, but don't think it is useless. Now comparing the special abilites of the Rogue versus the Bard is comparing apples to oranges. They are nothing alike. Rogues focus on dealing and avoiding damage. Bards focus is on controlling sentiants and buffing. The balance in comparing the two classes is a feat from Complete Warrior, Arcane Strike. Sacrifice a spell to deal +1 to hit and + 1d4 damage per level sacrifced with all of your attacks that round. So A Bard under Haste making three attacks per round with a longsword could add many 4 sided dice to his attack. This attack can be used against creature that the rogue cannot sneak attack (such as golems and oozes). SO that 4th level spell sacrifice at 13th level would get up to 16d4 aditional damage while under Hatse and all attacks hit. That's significant. I am not trying to downplau the buffing aspect. The Inspire Courage is useful at low and high levels, adding a bonus to every attack/damage from everyone in the party. At 5th level, that is adding +5 damage from 5 party members. At 10th level it is adding +30 damage if every attack hits while under Haste. Etc. Inspire Greatness adds +2 to hit and bonus HD. The bonus HD is useful for front line fighters and for low HP Bards/Rogues/Arcane Casters. The higher the level, the more people effected. Inspire heroics adds directly to defense with Saves and AC. Again, front line fighters and low AC individuals will appriciate your abilities. It is unfortunate your party cannot see the benefit from such a character. At low levels, you make the party more effective. At higher levels, you can stand on your own as easily as they can.
Tenreo 10-23-05, 09:25 AM	The use of a bard depends on the game. Some DMs place less emphasis on diplomacy rolls, or disallow them entirely, believing that diplomacy should be roleplayed, not rollplayed (or is it the other way round? I can never remember..). Suggestion and similaer effects are sometimes similarly nerfed, simply because the DM isn't sure how powerful they should be. When allowed, however, they are VERY effective Even when diplomacy/suggestion are nerfed, the bard has it's uses. It is a good buffer,a decent healer, and a passable illusionist. While not amazing in any single role (becides diplomacy), it is decent in almost all of them. It is widely agknowledged that this makes it a good "5th party member", but this also makes it an ideal in a party with less than four members.
elven warriorXX 10-23-05, 11:33 AM	The use of a bard depends on the game. Some DMs place less emphasis on diplomacy rolls, or disallow them entirely, believing that diplomacy should be roleplayed, not rollplayed (or is it the other way round? I can never remember..). Suggestion and similaer effects are sometimes similarly nerfed, simply because the DM isn't sure how powerful they should be. When allowed, however, they are VERY effective Even when diplomacy/suggestion are nerfed, the bard has it's uses. It is a good buffer,a decent healer, and a passable illusionist. While not amazing in any single role (becides diplomacy), it is decent in almost all of them. It is widely agknowledged that this makes it a good "5th party member", but this also makes it an ideal in a party with less than four members. Yes I don't like the idea of a Diplomacy skill so I nerfed it. I want Diplomacy to be based on how well the players roleplay. And If the do a very good job on it not only do they get the king to give them those 5 fighters for charging into a drow outpost, but I give them some extra XP for good work :)
legophreak 10-23-05, 11:59 AM	Yes I don't like the idea of a Diplomacy skill so I nerfed it. I want Diplomacy to be based on how well the players roleplay. And If the do a very good job on it not only do they get the king to give them those 5 fighters for charging into a drow outpost, but I give them some extra XP for good work :) Our game, we roll the Diplomacy check, and then the person " roleplays " it out based on how well he rolled. If he rolls a 5, he stutters, and fumbles his words, and such. But if he rolls like a 15, then he's all clear, and well spoken, and if he beat the DC, the people respond, and the attitude changes as described. Do it as you may, but there is no reason why you can't have both worlds with this. And yes, the Bard is usually always the Diplomat with the Paladin right behind him going, " uhh huh..what he said.."
elven warriorXX 10-23-05, 04:04 PM	Our game, we roll the Diplomacy check, and then the person " roleplays " it out based on how well he rolled. If he rolls a 5, he stutters, and fumbles his words, and such. But if he rolls like a 15, then he's all clear, and well spoken, and if he beat the DC, the people respond, and the attitude changes as described. Do it as you may, but there is no reason why you can't have both worlds with this. And yes, the Bard is usually always the Diplomat with the Paladin right behind him going, " uhh huh..what he said.." Lol :) Okay now I see that the bard is like a noble that can control people and monsters as well as help alies. That fits a little better. Oh and About the new mage class (which is the 2nd reason why I started this thread) here is a bit of what i thought of so far. I want them to use at lest 325 at 20th level and have the Sorcerer use the psion's PP table as their SP table. I am thinking of having mages be able to cast any spell they know (even if they can't normal cast spells of that level) by making a SpellCraft check that uses this formulae DC15 + (Spell Level x 3) - Caster's Level-spellcraft ranks-int mod. So that a 3rd level caster with 5 ranks in SC and an int of 17(-3) trys to cast a 3rd level spell has to roll a 17 to cast it. IF they fail they take spells level+d4 of Subdual damage and can not try to cast a spell that they normally could not untill they get 8 hours of rest (or 4 for elfs). It will still cost Spell points to cast the spell even if the check fails (it also cost 1 more point per spell level). What you think?