| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| tark04-01-05, 05:18 PM | Hi All, I have what I hope is a rather trivial question. What would stop a bard from fascinating someone, and then throwing suggestion after suggestion at them, until they finally fail a saving throw? From the SRD: Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability. |
| tark04-01-05, 05:21 PM | I may have just answered my own question. The fascination ability only lasts a maximum of 1 round per level of the bard. ...but still, a 10th level bard would get 9 chances to implant a suggestion. Odds are good that at least one of the saving throws will be low enough to fail. |
| Thorak04-01-05, 06:42 PM | Yes. This is one of the greatest, and poorest understood by those who dismiss the class, of the bard's strengths. The bard is the master manipulator. I can't recall the exact numbers, but I remember there was a bard vs cleric duel thread, where the discussion revolved around this exact issue, at 20th level. The Cleric couldn't even approach passing the DC on the Fascinate, and there was something like a 30% chance they'd pass all of the Suggestions. Basically, if you can hear, and you're not immune to mind-affecting effects, you better kill the bard in that first round. Otherwise, if it's just the two of you, he's going to take your mind and mold it like clay. |
| yonman04-01-05, 07:00 PM | I don't understand why you think the Bard's fascinate ability is so good. from SRD: Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Therefore, if the person sees another potential threat or if there is combat around, fascinate doesn't work. |
| BlaineTog04-01-05, 07:59 PM | I don't understand why you think the Bard's fascinate ability is so good. Therefore, if the person sees another potential threat or if there is combat around, fascinate doesn't work.Sure. But out of combat (and before combat), it rocks. You can basically get anyone to do whatever you want at an extremely low lost. |
| yonman04-01-05, 09:15 PM | Of course out of combat it is good, but if I were a person talking to a Bard and he/she started reciting poetry or singing a song....okay roll for initiative! The bard's fascinate ability doesn't just happen before anyone else can go. Once you're in combat it's kinda useless. I hope your DM allows you to at least make initiative checks against that... It's kinda like purposely letting a thief sit next to you while you talk. Sorry, but I like my cash where it is, in my pocket. |
| TinManFan04-01-05, 09:19 PM | Yes, but until initiative is rolled, everyone's flat footed, so can't just roll a 20 sider cause you don't like what's happening to you, you have to suck it up. |
| yonman04-01-05, 09:23 PM | Okay, I guess what i'm getting at is that everyone is flat-footed until initiative is rolled. But, the Bard's song works both ways. Assuming there's an enemy Bard and a PC bard both trying to do Bard songs at the same time...initiative has to be rolled. Even if there wasn't why does the opposing bard get the upper hand and automatically get to do his fascinate ability before anyone else? At most a sense motive check is in order... |
| Cebo04-01-05, 09:27 PM | Are you seriously going to attack someone for trying to tell you a story? How meta-game is that? He is just a lowly entertainer until you prove otherwise. That be like shooting a guy playing his guitar in the street because you MIGHT be compelled to give him some of your change. |
| yonman04-01-05, 09:31 PM | Oh and also from the SRD: Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. If there was a strange bard in front of me i'm gonna be kinda leery and decide NOT to pay attention to him, the situation has to be that you do not intentionally have any ill feelings toward him. |
| yonman04-01-05, 09:35 PM | Are you seriously going to attack someone for trying to tell you a story? How meta-game is that? He is just a lowly entertainer until you prove otherwise. That be like shooting a guy playing his guitar in the street because you MIGHT be compelled to give him some of your change. And I didn't say I would attack him, I would say "Please dont' play a song", if he continues then I'll respond. And I don't consider that "metagame". If you were talking to a guy with a guitar and all of a sudden you're standing nekked in a forest with nothing but a loincloth,,,you'd be a little wary of men with big guitars after that. |
| TheDarkestOfAngels04-01-05, 09:36 PM | Sure. But out of combat (and before combat), it rocks. You can basically get anyone to do whatever you want at an extremely low lost. or for solo battles. If its just Bard vs. someone... nigh anyone not immune or super-resistant to mind-affecting effects, the bard will turn their opponent into a puppet. "Dance puppets DANCE!" |
| BlaineTog04-01-05, 09:47 PM | Of course out of combat it is good, but if I were a person talking to a Bard and he/she started reciting poetry or singing a song....okay roll for initiative!You don't have time. Round 1: Bard sings. Round 1, end: You = Fascinated = unable to do jack. You don't get an action between when the Bard starts singing and when you become fascinated. Sure you could ready an action, but since the bard probably has a high Concentration check modifer, you probably won't be able to interrupt him and you still get fascinated. The bard's fascinate ability doesn't just happen before anyone else can go.It does if he wins initiative. If there was a strange bard in front of me i'm gonna be kinda leery and decide NOT to pay attention to him, the situation has to be that you do not intentionally have any ill feelings toward him.It's not whether or not the subject IS paying attention, it's whether or not the subject CAN pay attention. or for solo battles.Right. The bard can arguably try to fascinate the enemy any time during the combat if it's one-one-one. |
| Thorak04-01-05, 09:58 PM | Like others are saying; by the time you start to say "I would rather you not play music", you'd get to about "rather" before failing your Will save. And you can't decide to not pay attention. If that were an option, nobody would ever pay attention to bards, and their Fascinate would be useless. It says able to pay attention. If you've got your fingers in your ears and are saying "LALALALA" at the top of your voice, but the bard's playing loud enough to creep through, you're gonna get Fascinated. As for threats; this is why any Bard worth the name has their allies walk around without visible weapons. Or use stealth and hide. If they're not acting intimidating or violent toward the enemy, there's no potential threat. And if your DM argues that the PCs existence could be seen as a threat, then you use stealth. You Fascinate, Suggest that your friends come out and he not be afraid of them, and then you're golden. |
| Jell_Moo04-01-05, 10:10 PM | DO note that things like guitars, lutes, banjos and the like aren't even required. Things like Perform (Oratory) mean that the Bard could simply start by telling a story, humming, reciting a poem, etc... If you aren't on your guard, and some dude happens to start telling you a story, it isn't roll for initiative, it's make a saving throw time. Pretty much a surprise round. Is it a strategy that's always going to work? Of course not. But it is a likelihood, and one that when used, is exceptionally effective. |
| BlaineTog04-01-05, 11:45 PM | Is it a strategy that's always going to work? Of course not. But it is a likelyhood, and one that when used, is exceptionally effective.F1xx0red. |
| Begle104-02-05, 12:25 AM | DO note that things like guitars, lutes, banjos and the like aren't even required. Things like Perform (Oratory) mean that the Bard could simply start by telling a story, humming, reciting a poem, etc... If you aren't on your guard, and some dude happens to start telling you a story, it isn't roll for initiative, it's make a saving throw time. Pretty much a surprise round. Is it a strategy that's always going to work? Of course not. But it is a possibility, and one that when used, is exceptionally effective. I have a bard with all ranks in Perform: Sightless Subtle Mime Nuances... :plotting: :plotting: :plotting: I look at you funny and slightly flex my muscles and YOU SHOW ME YOUR BOOBIES! HAHAHA! (Then again, it works that way for me in real life but I just now figured out how to convert it into the game...) |
| Jell_Moo04-02-05, 12:33 AM | F1xx0red. BlaineTog: Finding the truth that's hidden between the lines since 2003. :D |
| yonman04-02-05, 03:42 AM | All kidding aside, but I think that readying an action if a bard starts chanting is worthwhile. I would silence or grapple that entertainer so quick he'd forget the song... A lot of you think that bardic music is a way of life to make money as a typical civilian entertainer, but I see it as a form of "charm person" that is there to robe you of everything you got and leave you nothing but the lint in your shorts. |
| Gemstone04-02-05, 03:53 AM | All kidding aside, but I think that readying an action if a bard starts chanting is worthwhile. I would silence or grapple that entertainer so quick he'd forget the song... A lot of you think that bardic music is a way of life to make money as a typical civilian entertainer, but I see it as a form of "charm person" that is there to robe you of everything you got and leave you nothing but the lint in your shorts. Doing so would require you to grapple anyone who starts reciting poetry or any other form of rythmic chanting that you see as a bard. That's something I would call meta-game thinking |
| yonman04-02-05, 04:09 AM | I hardly see that as meta-gaming, it's like readying against someone casting a spell. Wizards are just as powerful if left unchecked, like a bard. |
| Dargan Griess04-02-05, 08:21 AM | So your character is automatically going to draw a weapon on the guy sitting in front of him thats telling the local kids the story of "Mrs McGeadies Cow", all because he happens to be there and he might use the facinate ability on you if he even has it. If you pulled that crap in my game the local guards would have you in irons faster than the 3.0 hast spell for at least reckless endangerment and causing a disturbance in a public place. Remember if there is a lot of live steel around the first one who draws is responsible for the consequences. |
| Lexarius04-02-05, 09:38 AM | Not to mention that you can't Ready outside of initiative. And that unless you have Quickdraw, you'd have to go everywhere with your weapon draw. And that entertainers of all sorts are popular in towns, because they don't have TV or the intarweb. You wouldn't be able to visit inns or taverns. |
| quaiven04-02-05, 09:47 AM | Or more importantly the fact that bards don't walk around with a glowing neon sign over their heads that says "I'm a Bard!". And they are proficient with light armor and shields. So a bard could look like anything from a commoner to a wizard to a rogue or even a fighter. Are you automatically attacking anyone who approaches you simply because they might be a bard? |
| Grynn04-02-05, 09:47 AM | I have to agree with Dargan Griess. And if you try to take it to court, who is the jury (or judge) going to believe: you, or the guy that has Glibness and Undetectable Alignment? |
| DolArrah04-02-05, 10:05 AM | Bards are the ultimate in combat. Use a suggestion like 'Hey, freind. Why don't you take a nice swim in that pool (really a pool of acid) over there' or 'Hey, freind, I can cast a fly spell on you, then you should jump of that cliff. It is very fun!' or 'Hey, why don't you pet my gelatinous cube?' Any of those would harm or kill the target, and all are within the rules, as you arn't asking him to do something dangerous, like jump of a cliff, you are asking the target to fly of a cliff and, since they believe you and you have not requested anything unreasonable, they will do it, and you will kill them. Suggestion also help you get your way with party members!! |
| TinManFan04-02-05, 12:15 PM | My personal favorite is suggesting "There's someone behind you! Let's fight it together!" and letting the rogue come up and SA to his/her heart's content. |
| BlaineTog04-02-05, 01:21 PM | BlaineTog: Finding the truth that's hidden between the lines since 2003. :DThat is sooooo sigged! |
| uberwoo04-02-05, 03:27 PM | If you were talking to a guy with a guitar and all of a sudden you're standing nekked in a forest with nothing but a loincloth,,,you'd be a little wary of men with big guitars after that. think about that for a second... :mymy: |
| HighlandsTraveller04-02-05, 07:09 PM | It says the bard can make a suggestion attempt, not make suggestion attempts. Other than common sense that's the tact I take. You want to read the rules technically, so be it. Honestly, if s/he cannot attempt suggestions on multiple creatures with the ability then why on earth would the rules let the bard repeatedly make suggestions to one creature? It would be better than mass suggestion by this liberal interpretation of the rules. |
| Thorak04-02-05, 09:10 PM | It says the bard can make a suggestion attempt, not make suggestion attempts. Other than common sense that's the tact I take. You want to read the rules technically, so be it. Honestly, if s/he cannot attempt suggestions on multiple creatures with the ability then why on earth would the rules let the bard repeatedly make suggestions to one creature? It would be better than mass suggestion by this liberal interpretation of the rules. The rules easily allow it. It doesn't interrupt the Fascinate effect, and it doesn't count as a Bardic music use. If it were meant to interrupt the Fascinate, it would do so. It doesn't, so it's pretty darn clear that you can keep Suggesting as long as they're Fascinated. This is why Bards kick arse. And why many people think they don't; they don't understand how good this ability is, and how viciously high the DC can easily get on the original Fascinate. |
| yonman04-03-05, 12:52 AM | Well first of all: 1) Obviously if you were in a town and someone is singing, there's not much you can do if you want to draw a sword. So big deal, you can't stop the bard there, but the bard can't do much to you physically, except make you leave or steal a few things from you. 2) If you were outside of town...who cares, i'm not going to let a person/bard/wizard take advantage of me. There's a lot anyone can do outside of combat and I dont' see why you can't act before the bards starts singing. How many words does he have to say before you can act? So, what do you do if TWO bards are attemting to use their bard song at each other at the same time? do you roll for initiative?....if that were the case then anyone else who isn't a bard should get the same opportunity. 3) Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do outside of combat against a Bard, everyone has the opportunity at a "saving throw" (used lightly to represent retaliation). I don't see Bards being much different from a spellcaster, if a spellcaster wants to cast a fireball out of combat then the enemies get to roll initiative, assuming he wasn't hidden or anything. |
| ryanroyce04-03-05, 03:34 AM | Just a fun little anecdote about Fascinate: Four members of the party (paladin, wizard, rogue, and bard, all 16th level) were visiting the halfling village for a party of somekind when an "earthquake" erupted, followed by the arrival of THE TARRASQUE! :gah: In order to save the townfolk, the wizard summoned her Mordie's Mansion and herded the halfling villagers inside. Meanwhile, my bard hopped on the back of the paladin's flying mount and cast a Major Image of the largest Red Dragon allowed by the spell, pointedly avoiding any actual interaction with the Tarrasque (to avoid the Will SV). The Tarrasque thought the dragon looked tastier than the town and gave chase. This chase lasted maybe a minute before the beast got fed up and did a Rush at the dragon, terminating the Image. At this point, the rogue had the brilliant idea of creeping up and sneak attacking the Tarrasque. :rolleye2: She got rocked the next round, very nearly dead, and the situation looked rather bleak. Then I had an idea... :lightbulb: and asked the DM a simple, if leading, question: "Does the Tarrasque view us as potential threats or are we simply vaguely annoying prey from its POV?" The DM blithely responded that, as I suspected, the Big T did not perceive us as actually being a threat, despite the rogue's pathetic attempt to harm it. :evillaugh: His smile faded when he saw mine. Since I had already established that we were not, in fact, threatening the Tarrasque, my bard pulled out his magical lute and started singing a song to soothe the savage beast. :) With its (relatively) poor Will SV and my obscene Perform modifier, the beast was easily Fascinated. The DM spent about 2 minutes looking over the Tarrasque entry in the MM before finally conceding the Fascinate did, in fact, work. Unfortunately, he ruled out Suggestion on account of the creature having no language comprehension, but that didn't stop my bard from turning it into a Colossal bump on a log for about 15 minutes. This allowed the Wizard to retreat to a non-threatening distance and teleport away to find our Cleric and Fighter. When they got back, the cleric and wizard talked up a spellcasting strategy of Lower Spell Resistance (Draconomicon), several Greater Bestow Curses (Complete Divine), and Baleful Polymorph for the coup-de-grace. We turned it into a gila monster. :) It was unanimously agreed that the fight would have been much more difficult and potentially very lethal if the bard hadn't sent the beast to La La Land first. Go Bards! :cheer: Ryan |
| Gemstone04-03-05, 04:34 AM | Just a fun little anecdote about Fascinate: Four members of the party (paladin, wizard, rogue, and bard, all 16th level) were visiting the halfling village for a party of somekind when an "earthquake" erupted, followed by the arrival of THE TARRASQUE! :gah: In order to save the townfolk, the wizard summoned her Mordie's Mansion and herded the halfling villagers inside. Meanwhile, my bard hopped on the back of the paladin's flying mount and cast a Major Image of the largest Red Dragon allowed by the spell, pointedly avoiding any actual interaction with the Tarrasque (to avoid the Will SV). The Tarrasque thought the dragon looked tastier than the town and gave chase. This chase lasted maybe a minute before the beast got fed up and did a Rush at the dragon, terminating the Image. At this point, the rogue had the brilliant idea of creeping up and sneak attacking the Tarrasque. :rolleye2: She got rocked the next round, very nearly dead, and the situation looked rather bleak. Then I had an idea... :lightbulb: and asked the DM a simple, if leading, question: "Does the Tarrasque view us as potential threats or are we simply vaguely annoying prey from its POV?" The DM blithely responded that, as I suspected, the Big T did not perceive us as actually being a threat, despite the rogue's pathetic attempt to harm it. :evillaugh: His smile faded when he saw mine. Since I had already established that we were not, in fact, threatening the Tarrasque, my bard pulled out his magical lute and started singing a song to soothe the savage beast. :) With its (relatively) poor Will SV and my obscene Perform modifier, the beast was easily Fascinated. The DM spent about 2 minutes looking over the Tarrasque entry in the MM before finally conceding the Fascinate did, in fact, work. Unfortunately, he ruled out Suggestion on account of the creature having no language comprehension, but that didn't stop my bard from turning it into a Colossal bump on a log for about 15 minutes. This allowed the Wizard to retreat to a non-threatening distance and teleport away to find our Cleric and Fighter. When they got back, the cleric and wizard talked up a spellcasting strategy of Lower Spell Resistance (Draconomicon), several Greater Bestow Curses (Complete Divine), and Baleful Polymorph for the coup-de-grace. We turned it into a gila monster. :) It was unanimously agreed that the fight would have been much more difficult and potentially very lethal if the bard hadn't sent the beast to La La Land first. Go Bards! :cheer: Ryan I have to ask, did the wizard and cleric have these spells prepared? |
| ryanroyce04-03-05, 04:41 AM | I have to ask, did the wizard and cleric have these spells prepared? Yes... technically. I must confess that luck and happenstance played a significant role. Y'see, the cleric's player didn't make it to the first session, so we left the cleric back at home (along with the fighter, who didn't make it either). The cleric's player did make it to the second session, however, so we had the wizard teleport back home to get the previously missing PCs. Since the cleric hadn't prepared her spells yet, she was able to prepare specifically for encountering the Tarrasque. And thanks to a previously established component of the campaign (a 'crafting room' set in a fast-time pocket dimension designed to allow crafters to craft items more quickly), she was able to prepare her spells in a fraction of the time. The wizard already had Baleful Polymorph prepared. Like I said, luck and happenstance, but no foul play. Ryan |
| Nephlite04-03-05, 12:09 PM | It says the bard can make a suggestion attempt, not make suggestion attempts. Other than common sense that's the tact I take. You want to read the rules technically, so be it. Honestly, if s/he cannot attempt suggestions on multiple creatures with the ability then why on earth would the rules let the bard repeatedly make suggestions to one creature? It would be better than mass suggestion by this liberal interpretation of the rules. Well you can only Suggestion 1/round, you an only mass suggestion 1/round. Fascinate last a long time my freind. If you faqscinated 10 people than you have ten rounds at least to suggest to them all, but only 1 or 2 round for mass suggestion. See the difference is the number of fascinated targets and time. |
| DolArrah04-03-05, 12:40 PM | 1) Obviously if you were in a town and someone is singing, there's not much you can do if you want to draw a sword. So big deal, you can't stop the bard there, but the bard can't do much to you physically, except make you leave or steal a few things from you. I beg to differ. You can be forced to steal from someone then be thrown into jail, you can be told to kill someone, or you can be forced to jump of a house. 2) If you were outside of town...who cares, i'm not going to let a person/bard/wizard take advantage of me. There's a lot anyone can do outside of combat and I dont' see why you can't act before the bards starts singing. How many words does he have to say before you can act? So, what do you do if TWO bards are attemting to use their bard song at each other at the same time? do you roll for initiative?....if that were the case then anyone else who isn't a bard should get the same opportunity. 1) This may just be me but I can hum under my breath, and, when they hear you, they are inslantly fascinated. 2) Remember, part of the perform skill is making a speech or somehting like that, so talking to someone, or making an inflamed speech about how your god is the best, will get them fascinated. 3) Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do outside of combat against a Bard, everyone has the opportunity at a "saving throw" (used lightly to represent retaliation). I don't see Bards being much different from a spellcaster, if a spellcaster wants to cast a fireball out of combat then the enemies get to roll initiative, assuming he wasn't hidden or anything. Yes, but, at ninth level, a human bard can take Extra Music 4 times, giving her a grand total of 29x/day. Now, get those boots that let you run fast and you can run away while singing to them, therefore forcing them to make the save 29 TIMES!! Do you think many characters will make a saving throw 29 times in a row? NO |
| Thorak04-03-05, 04:25 PM | 3) Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do outside of combat against a Bard, everyone has the opportunity at a "saving throw" (used lightly to represent retaliation). I don't see Bards being much different from a spellcaster, if a spellcaster wants to cast a fireball out of combat then the enemies get to roll initiative, assuming he wasn't hidden or anything. There's a saving throw. The DC is just in the upper 30s or 40s, if not 50s. The DC is set by a perform check. Considering just by skill ranks the Bard can, and should, have +23 by level 20, that's an average DC of 33-34. Now, he gets Skill Focus for a +3, a masterwork instrument for a +2, an 18 Charisma with a +6 Enhancement bonus item for a +7 ability bonus, and that's a +35 to the check. For an average DC of 45-46. And I haven't even gotten out of the PHB yet. And the Bard wants a maxxed Charisma anyway, since it's also the base for their casting. Even the minimum DC here is a 36, and almost every character will have a hard time passing that. |
| yonman04-03-05, 04:36 PM | Dol Arrah: I beg to differ. You can be forced to steal from someone then be thrown into jail, you can be told to kill someone, or you can be forced to jump of a house. Well, my point wasn't there were only a few things you can do to someone in town, but that since other people would normally be around for a witness, then there wouldn't be as much opportunity for harm if you were in a town. 1) This may just be me but I can hum under my breath, and, when they hear you, they are inslantly fascinated. That is totally a DM call or would require you a feat of somekind. I see the Bard ability as a normal speech loud enough to carry the 90' distance as stated in the Fascinate section. Humming quietly wouldn't go 90'. I know a lot of you would just say well, this one just travels 5' and 90' is the maximum distance not the required distance. But I don't make exceptions when it is written in plain old Text. 2) Remember, part of the perform skill is making a speech or somehting like that, so talking to someone, or making an inflamed speech about how your god is the best, will get them fascinated. Quoting Yes the Bard can do Oratory or several other types of singing, but if he wants to mask his ability with normal speech it is at least a Bluff check vs opponents Sense Motive skill. But again, the sound needs to travel at least 90'. Yes, but, at ninth level, a human bard can take Extra Music 4 times, giving her a grand total of 29x/day. Now, get those boots that let you run fast and you can run away while singing to them, therefore forcing them to make the save 29 TIMES!! Do you think many characters will make a saving throw 29 times in a row? HUH?? First of all your opponents need to be within 90'. 2nd, isn't there a point (like after the 1st round), that initiative starts to get rolled? Once combat starts you can't fascinate. |
| BlaineTog04-03-05, 04:37 PM | 1) Obviously if you were in a town and someone is singing, there's not much you can do if you want to draw a sword. So big deal, you can't stop the bard there, but the bard can't do much to you physically, except make you leave or steal a few things from you.The bard can do a heckuvalot with suggestion. He just has to get creative. 2) If you were outside of town...who cares, i'm not going to let a person/bard/wizard take advantage of me. There's a lot anyone can do outside of combat and I dont' see why you can't act before the bards starts singing.Because he can start singing without warning and it only takes a round for him to fascinate you. It's kinda like a surprise round. So, what do you do if TWO bards are attemting to use their bard song at each other at the same time?One of them started first. One of the players said their action first. 3) Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do outside of combat against a Bard, everyone has the opportunity at a "saving throw" (used lightly to represent retaliation).Right, there's that saving throw. That's all you get. I don't see Bards being much different from a spellcaster, if a spellcaster wants to cast a fireball out of combat then the enemies get to roll initiative, assuming he wasn't hidden or anything.No, that caster gets to cast his fireball during the surprise round, before anyone has rolled initative, if he does it without warning. |
| steenan04-03-05, 04:45 PM | 3) Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do outside of combat against a Bard, everyone has the opportunity at a "saving throw" (used lightly to represent retaliation). I don't see Bards being much different from a spellcaster, if a spellcaster wants to cast a fireball out of combat then the enemies get to roll initiative, assuming he wasn't hidden or anything. You are (at least theoretically) able to do something - you just have to have high enough Sense motive. If you win against bard's Bluff, he won't have suprise round against you, so (if you also win initiative) you'll be able to "silence" him someway. If he has suprise round (and that's very probable - I haven't heard about a bard without maxed Bluff), you are fascinated before you can even roll initiative... |
| yonman04-03-05, 04:48 PM | BlainTog 1) Check my response to question #1 above this post. 2) All of your responses are assuming that who ever "says" they're going to do something first gets a FREE surprise action before anyone else. Maybe i'm mistaken, but I don't recall anywhere in the manuals where that is stated. Surprise happens when onen party is not aware of the other party. In all instances both parties are aware of each other, so if a spellcaster is going to cast a fireball then Initiative gets rolled. Sense Motive would need to get rolled against Bluff to prevent a surprise round by the assailant. |
| BlaineTog04-03-05, 05:26 PM | So you posit that if two people are talking to each other, it is possible for person A to react to the singing of person B before person B starts singing? |
| yonman04-03-05, 05:29 PM | So you posit that if two people are talking to each other, it is possible for person A to react to the singing of person B before person B starts singing? Exactly, just like Readying an Action against a Spellcaster attempting to cast a spell. Except for out of combat you use Sense Motive vs. Bluff to determine if there is a surprise round before intiative is rolled. |
| BlaineTog04-03-05, 06:14 PM | Exactly, just like Readying an Action against a Spellcaster attempting to cast a spell.Except person A wasn't readying his action. If person A was, then yes, they would get a chance to attack. But they almost certainly were not. It is extreme metagaming and/or a severley uncommon paranoia if any sizeable percentage of NPCs do this. Except for out of combat you use Sense Motive vs. Bluff to determine if there is a surprise round before intiative is rolled.The bard can just start singing, though. Just like that. There's no lead-up involved, and there's nothing he needs to set up. He just starts singing. |
| yonman04-03-05, 08:38 PM | Except person A wasn't readying his action. If person A was, then yes, they would get a chance to attack. But they almost certainly were not. It is extreme metagaming and/or a severley uncommon paranoia if any sizeable percentage of NPCs do this. Well I'm talking about both NPCs and PCs. And anytime you are out of combat and wish to do an action, the PC's need to roll against the opponents Bluff check in order to get surprised and vice versa. There has to be a form of dice rolling involved to make it fair for BOTH sides. Blantantly stating that the opponent is surprised just because he said first "I want to cast a fireball" doesn't make it an automatic surprise round. I see Sense Motive vs Bluff the most sensible way of resolving this. The bard can just start singing, though. Just like that. There's no lead-up involved, and there's nothing he needs to set up. He just starts singing. If this were the case don't you think it would be somewhere in TEXT? Your opinion is valid but not proven. I treat all out of combat actions the SAME. Meaning you don't get surprise just because someone on your table blurted out their action before you could speak, or for the DM with NPCs. |
| Elessar04-03-05, 09:05 PM | You are (at least theoretically) able to do something - you just have to have high enough Sense motive. If you win against bard's Bluff, he won't have suprise round against you, so (if you also win initiative) you'll be able to "silence" him someway. If he has suprise round (and that's very probable - I haven't heard about a bard without maxed Bluff), you are fascinated before you can even roll initiative... I think that theory depends entirely on whether your DM has house-ruled that you can use Sense Motive as a means to read minds. ;) As Sense Motive and Bluff are laid out in the PHB 3.5, a Bluff check is not required to sing a song, only a Perform check. Similarly, someone who suddenly attacks you with a weapon in the middle of a conversation with no warning gets a surprise round provided they can get the attack off in one round (i.e. they have the Quick Draw feat.) A Bluff check is required perhaps, to look innocent when a target suspects that you may be up to something, but if your DM requires a Bluff check from every PC every time they meet an NPC they plan on attacking, they are playing an extremely lengthy, and I might add boring, game. If the DM were this stringent for broadcasting moves, he would have to also roll Bluff checks for every deceptive NPC the characters meet as well. As for Sense Motive, the best I can give you is that you could roll a Sense Motive check to make a Hunch about the bard with whom you're talking (and that's assuming you know it's a bard at all, as someone already pointed out, bards don't go around wearing a "bard badge," and that's not even taking into account the fact that they have Disguise as a class skill to further throw off the scent.) A Hunch takes a DC 20 check to find out whether something is amiss or not, and it doesn't tell you whether or not the target is about to sing. Even then, it takes a minute to complete such a gut assessment, while a bard takes only one round to fascinate. Although I suppose yonman's characters perform this check at periodic intervals with any peasant carrying a lute, most people don't do this. ( ;) just a joke) I think this argument is being approached by two sets of people who play two different types of games. In some games, character classes and alignments are readily apparent and you know who to trust and who not to trust. In such games, going within 90' of a charming-looking fellow wearing a black cape and carrying a flute is suicide since he is, of course, an evil bard out to make you jump into the ubiquitous pool of acid. In other games, DMs intentionally add more depth to their characters to throw off such "out-of-game" thinking. For instance, a culture of barbarians might have a strong oral tradition to make up for their lack of literacy, and therefore many characters of the Barbarian class take ranks in Perform (epic) as a means of honoring their ancestor's memory. If you readied an arrow against such a character merely because he began to sing an epic within earshot of you, the consequences would be a.) giving the impression to all other characters that you are in fact insane, b.) incurring the wrath (and probably rage) of the innocent barbarian, and c.) a probable reassessment by the DM of your alignment, unless you happen to already be Chaotic Evil or something. Anyways, trying to get two people from different sides of the track to agree on the likely sequence of events in this situation is difficult since the types of situations they typically enounter in their campaigns are so very different. |
| yonman04-03-05, 09:21 PM | In response to Elessar: I suppose the mentality is different as Elessar stated for two different types of campaigns. I take a very logical approach to game playing, in that everyone has a fair chance to to counter anything so long as he/she is prepared. Whether that be a role playing aspect or dice rolling, there is always a chance of failure and success (except of course on a natural "20"). At any rate, I roll for everything (whether it's me as a PC or a DM) and which gives "chance" it's fair place in gaming. I would be extremely frustrated if I was faced with an obvious (and I do mean OBVIOUS) evil bard who fascinates me and here I am not even able to do anything cuz the DM said "he starts singing" before I was able to attack him. |
| HighlandsTraveller04-03-05, 09:22 PM | I didn't say the suggestion attempt ended the fascinate effect I said that you could only try it once. The odds of even a demigod, or ancient dragon withstanding 20-30 will saves in a row is remote even with spell resistance, so saying that a suggestion means a suggestion every round is a radical interpretation of the text. The "not perceived as hostile" requirement is good enough to keep this ability in check in general, so the bard is still not overpowered on the whole if you allow it, but it brings about particular situations that are completely unwinable for one side, and that goes against the spirit of the rules. No encounter should be that easy unless you want an evil bard to pop up in the middle of town, fascinate the party, and then suggest that they donate all of their equipment to the local church of undeath/evil warlock/shadowy cult of doom. Sorry guys, you had a chance to make 15 will saves in a row, tough break there. However, since the rules say the bard can make a suggestion or a mass suggestion, as in only one, the party might have a chance. The rules could have said the bard can make suggestions to fascinated creatures if that was their intent, but they do not. |
| BlaineTog04-03-05, 10:05 PM | Well I'm talking about both NPCs and PCs. And anytime you are out of combat and wish to do an action, the PC's need to roll against the opponents Bluff check in order to get surprised and vice versa. There has to be a form of dice rolling involved to make it fair for BOTH sides. Blantantly stating that the opponent is surprised just because he said first "I want to cast a fireball" doesn't make it an automatic surprise round. I see Sense Motive vs Bluff the most sensible way of resolving this.Two things that just occured to me: Where in the Bluff/Sense Motive skill descriptions does it say this? Singing and casting a spell are two completelly different actions. Casting a spell is offensive, singing is not. Even if you knew he could fascinate you with singing, it still wouldn't be an offensive action, because it's still just singing. Your opinion is valid but not proven.So's yours. |
| yonman04-03-05, 10:27 PM | Singing and casting a spell are two completelly different actions. Casting a spell is offensive, singing is not. Even if you knew he could fascinate you with singing, it still wouldn't be an offensive action, because it's still just singing. The Bard's fascinate ability is a (Sp) or spell-like ability. The Fascinate spell is a spell. So if your conditions above were true, then Fascinate spell is offensive and therefore the Fascinate ability is also. Note: if it were just "singing" then it wouldn't provote an attack of opportunity in combat. Where in the Bluff/Sense Motive skill descriptions does it say this? This is my solution to the problem since they can't put every situation in the skill for Bluff/Sense motive. It's like using the Knowledge skill, there are just too many combinations to put into words. So's yours. I will acknowledge that both are opinionated, but I still hold fast that it is unreasonable for anyone to get a "free" surprise action based on "who said their action first" out of combat. |
| Elessar04-03-05, 10:30 PM | Yes, I agree with Highlands... according to the rules-- and I think they are sufficiently balanced and clearly stated-- you can only make one suggestion per fascination. This means it is a powerful strength of the bard, but does not make him the veritable puppet-master that one poster stated he was. I think this fact should allay yonman's fears somewhat, since the limiting factor to a bard's suggestion ability is not only the two saving throws (one difficult one to resist the fascinate attempt and another slightly less difficult one to resist the suggestion) but also the fact that the bard only gets one chance to make his request seem reasonable. Suggestion is not a charm person spell and part of the fun (and difficulty) of the spell is that you need to carefully phrase the suggestion else the effect be negated. Of course, the term "reasonable" depends on how reasonable your DM is, but then again why are you playing with a DM who who allow a suggestion to jump off a building or donate gear to an evil church to work, nevermind be suggested in the first place. And a really good DM wouldn't allow the suggestion to be a non-sequitur, either. There would have to be a conversation leading up to the suggestion to make it sound reasonable. Although that plan of action isn't to everyone's tastes since not everyone likes to role-play. So therefore, even in the type of campaign yonman's talking about, where every player needs a "chance" to avoid negative effects, the rules as written for suggestion are actually pretty balanced, even though it's a powerful ability. A 6th level wizard can have the same potential effect on a person with his suggestion, or if he really wanted to steal all your gear in a dark alley, he could cast hold person. Anyway, rest assured you get two saving throws if your DM all the sudden went haywire and decided he wants to send out evil bards whose sole purpose is to get PCs to jump off cliffs while he casts fly on them... Actually you not only get that, you also get the option to get up and leave, since unless there's a great explanation I haven't thought of, that DM is running as lame, non-sequitur of a game as if he had had a character die for no reason in a flash flood while the party was asleep. |
| yonman04-03-05, 10:35 PM | I do agree with Elessar's comments on only one suggestion per Fascination. But, even though DMing would vary from person to person. I don't agree that anyone should have that kind of power to take you out by agreeing for you to jump off a cliff while I cast "fly" on you. That kind of save or die was fun in version 2.0. But I have come to believe that 3.5 has swayed away from instant death spells and relied on a more "balanced" system. |
| Elessar04-03-05, 11:43 PM | Well, I don't really think that there would be any problem with that working on an NPC if a PC bard, with sufficient roleplaying, gets them to jump off a cliff. The DM would be able to adjudicate according to the situation whether the suggestion is or isn't reasonable (and if he really needs that particular NPC or if it's the "boss" and he doesn't want the PCs to get off so easy, he can just fudge the die roll to keep the game going.) What I was against is this fear of the DM killing off PCs with mind-compulsion spells. If your DM is this homicidal, he doesn't need a bard to kill your PCs, he can do it in any number of unreasonable ways, so this fear is sort of moot. Technically, a bard has the power, given a certain amount of verbal creativity, to (out of the blue) get people to jump off cliffs. They get two consecutive saving throws to avoid the effect or, if the bard was casting an actual suggestion spell, one easier saving throw... and that, I'm afraid, is that. This is according to the 3.5 rules. Any Sense Motive check to initiate combat is a house-rule. The only checks that pre-empt a surprise round, if you're using only DMG 3.5, are Listen and Spot. Sense Motive, as I stated before, can be use to gain a positive or negative hunch about a situation that causes you to feel wary of an person planning to use a suggestion on you. However, preparing an attack action against a stranger who looks like a travelling minstrel because you don't want your game ruined by mind control is often self-defeating: you may have already ruined the game through metagaming, unless of course in your campaign, manipulative bards are common and everyone is constantly on the alert against them. Of course, this gets back to my thought earlier about how there are different campaigns. In some campaigns, this sort of metagaming is expected, so I suppose it's fine in those cases. |
| Thorak04-04-05, 12:25 AM | First point; Suggestion doesn't break Fascinate, nor does it use up a bardic music use. Nor does it last more than one action. Nor is there a limit given to how many times you can make a Suggestion. If you say that the Bard can only Suggest once per Fascinate, you are houseruling. There is absolutely no implication that this would be the case according to the RAW. Secon point; all these arguments about who can do what when are covered in Initiative. If the Bard wins initiative or gets a surprise round, you're screwed. That's it. If you're talking, and the bard just suddenly starts singing, you roll initiative. If the bard wins, tough noogies. You're Fascinated. |
| yonman04-04-05, 12:53 AM | The thing is Thorak, is that most people seem to be agreeing that if two people are talking, and one Bard decides to start singing the Bard gets an automatic surprise round and starts fascinating everyone. There is NO initiative roll and NO chance to retaliate. This is the problem that I have and it boils down to whoever yells out first "I'm going to attack" on the gaming table during out of combat sessions. Some people call that role-playing, but I'd like to see some hard die rolls to determine the winner. Not a free for all "I said it first" nonsense. And Elessar: Fudging die rolls just isn't my thing. The DM can do anything, point taken, but a single Bard that can take out an entire party without even straining a vocal cord WITHOUT any retaliation possible is just plain silly. I also don't know what everyone's idea of metagaming is, but if a person carries a wand,,,he's probably a wizard/sorcerer and I take precautions. If he has a lute he could be a bard so I make it quite clear that I'm not interested in hearing any of his stories. I consider that common sense not paranoia. I never said I would kill him, but I'm not going to turn my back on it either. |
| NineInchNall04-04-05, 02:24 AM | How about this? A bard has a ton of ranks in Perform (give directions to the nearest pub), so when your character asks where the nearest pub is, the bard goes off on a long and fascinating explanation of how to get there. :D Oops, did I forget to tell you that you have to make a will save? More seriously, however, the point is quite simple. If someone does something interesting, does it cause a lighted sign to turn on above his head that it's time for combat? No. The comparison to a spellcaster is flawed, for the simple reason that casting a spell is almost necessarily easily recognizable. If someone pulls out some bat guano, speaks some odd words, and gestures oddly, then it's quite clear that he's started to do something decidedly unkosher. However, initiative is still only determined once a threat is made clear to a given character. If this were not the case, then initiative would be rolled any time there was a threat, entirely negating the possibility of surprise rounds that don't come from directly behind the character, in the dark, while the character's asleep, drunk, and knocked out with tons of morphine. Back to the wizard, though. So the wizard starts casting a spell; should he get a surprise round? Well, let's think about it. What is surprise? It's when something happens unexpectedly -- in game terms when something happens without allowing any preparation. In 3.x, you can get off a partial action during surprise, right? So we have two questions. Is casting a fireball a partial action? Yes. Was your character expecting the wizard character to start doing something threatening? If yes, then roll initiative, because your character is not surprised: he was expecting something. If not, then you'd better have a good reflex save, as you fit the definition of surprised: something happened that you were not expecting. Considering that using sense motive to read surface thoughts is an epic use of the skill, we have to say that the bard's first attempt at fascinating you occurs during the surprise round -- if you weren't prepared for or expecting his attempt to fascinate you. Seems pretty straight forward and reasonable. A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated. Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + ½ bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability. I'm having a hard time seeing where the limit of one suggestion per fascination is showing up. Sure, there's an indefinite article there, but that really doesn't mean anything. For example, "a character can make a coup de grace against an opponent on whom he has cast hold person," does not mean that the character can only make one coup de grace attempt per spell. It simply means that a new action has been added to the list of available options. |
| Elessar04-04-05, 02:56 AM | In regards to the the idea of rolling initiative from being provoked by fascinate attempt, the rules for fascinate say that " the distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." I only say this because it incidentally presents a paradox: if a bard singing - and never mind any innocent singing he might be doing, I mean singing to use the fascinate ability- provokes combat and initiative, then immediately the fascinate ability would fail every time and thus become a useless ability. It would be an ability unusable in combat that provokes combat. As for it being unfair -- it's only unfair if your DM is unfair, which as I said before, is the root of the problem. The rule fudging thing was merely a suggestion (no pun intended), but one with a solid point behind it: the jumping off a cliff thing only works if the DM uses it, and since its complete cheese, he shouldn't use it. Also, you could argue that your character isn't moronic enough to see jumping off a building as reasonable since it does present a clear risk of physical harm, as the spell description clearly states won't work. Just like even if my mother told me to "jump off a building because I'll catch you," I wouldn't see the suggestion as reasonable regardless of my trust in her. Whereas if she told me a pool of clear liquid was water and not acid and I'd better take a bath now, I'd be more inclined to listen since I don't encounter pools of acid as often as water. I think the whole parental analogy is a pretty good one to measure possible suggestions against. People are compelled to do what their parents ask them, but not things that are blatantly risky to physical health. As for being WITHOUT any sort of retaliation possible, the retaliation is the saving throw. The fascination effect doesn't do any damage, it's more of a time buying ability, it's only the suggestions that have the potential to harm. Now while there's doubt in my mind about the ruling on this, it seemed plausible to me that these suggestions could only be used on one per creature fascinated... but then the question arises, why the need for mass suggestion except possibly to save a little time when you want to do the same suggestion on multiple people? But if you were only able to use one suggestion per affected creature, it wouldn't be so bad since they'd all get reasonable saving throws. The alternate possiblity- where the bard can make "a" suggestion every round of the fascination- does seem a bit too difficult to overcome, since at 6th level he would be able to approach a fascinated foe: -"There's treasure in that ditch over there, I'll hold the rope while you get it" -"Nah, sounds too risky." -"Are you sure?" -"Yes." -"Are you really sure?" -"Yes." -"Are you really sure with a cherry on top?" -"Eh, what heck, you only live once." ::climbs down, bard pulls up rope, leaving foe to starve to death in wilderness:: Thorak, I'll admit I'm a bit confused as to the RAW regarding the amount of times you can use suggestion during the fascinate duration. The fact that it doesn't break concentration on the fascinate ability is spelled out quite clearly, and while the article, "a" is indefinite, it also means "one." It could be interpreted two ways, neither of which I'm certain. All I can see is that one seems rather overpowering, even considering the Bard's limitations, and the other seems just powerful enough. Unless the sage has clarified the rule, I think the "as written" aspect of the rule is up to some interpretation. |
| NineInchNall04-04-05, 05:27 AM | How about just say that no retries are allowed (like with giving an order in charm person)? It's kind of cool to see a bard acting all pied piper with a group of (formerly) rampaging orcs. |
| NehpetsTtocs04-04-05, 07:28 AM | Are you seriously going to attack someone for trying to tell you a story? How meta-game is that? He is just a lowly entertainer until you prove otherwise. That be like shooting a guy playing his guitar in the street because you MIGHT be compelled to give him some of your change. I don't know about the change part, but I've wanted to shoot more than a couple of street performers in my day... |
| Thorak04-04-05, 07:51 AM | In regards to the the idea of rolling initiative from being provoked by fascinate attempt, the rules for fascinate say that " the distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." I only say this because it incidentally presents a paradox: if a bard singing - and never mind any innocent singing he might be doing, I mean singing to use the fascinate ability- provokes combat and initiative, then immediately the fascinate ability would fail every time and thus become a useless ability. It would be an ability unusable in combat that provokes combat. As for it being unfair -- it's only unfair if your DM is unfair, which as I said before, is the root of the problem. The rule fudging thing was merely a suggestion (no pun intended), but one with a solid point behind it: the jumping off a cliff thing only works if the DM uses it, and since its complete cheese, he shouldn't use it. That's not true. There's surprise. And there's those cases where you win initiative. And there's distance. If the enemies are 70 feet away, they can't charge in, so there's no combat yet to distract anybody. As for initative, if two people are talking, and one suddenly quickdraws his sword and attacks, how do you work that out? This is exactly the same. It can't be Surprise, because that's based on whether you're aware of the other side. If you're talking, you're aware. Also, you could argue that your character isn't moronic enough to see jumping off a building as reasonable since it does present a clear risk of physical harm, as the spell description clearly states won't work. Just like even if my mother told me to "jump off a building because I'll catch you," I wouldn't see the suggestion as reasonable regardless of my trust in her. Whereas if she told me a pool of clear liquid was water and not acid and I'd better take a bath now, I'd be more inclined to listen since I don't encounter pools of acid as often as water. I think the whole parental analogy is a pretty good one to measure possible suggestions against. People are compelled to do what their parents ask them, but not things that are blatantly risky to physical health. The problem is that the pool of acid could be green and bubbling, and the Suggestion would still work. I don't see anything in the example in the PHB stating that the pool of acid looks like water. Though I'm generally more inclined to your view; I'd say you'd have to Suggest once to change their perception, and a second time to get them to do what it was you want. But that's me, and I may be houseruling. As for being WITHOUT any sort of retaliation possible, the retaliation is the saving throw. The fascination effect doesn't do any damage, it's more of a time buying ability, it's only the suggestions that have the potential to harm. Now while there's doubt in my mind about the ruling on this, it seemed plausible to me that these suggestions could only be used on one per creature fascinated... but then the question arises, why the need for mass suggestion except possibly to save a little time when you want to do the same suggestion on multiple people? But if you were only able to use one suggestion per affected creature, it wouldn't be so bad since they'd all get reasonable saving throws. The alternate possiblity- where the bard can make "a" suggestion every round of the fascination- does seem a bit too difficult to overcome, since at 6th level he would be able to approach a fascinated foe: -"There's treasure in that ditch over there, I'll hold the rope while you get it" -"Nah, sounds too risky." -"Are you sure?" -"Yes." -"Are you really sure?" -"Yes." -"Are you really sure with a cherry on top?" -"Eh, what heck, you only live once." ::climbs down, bard pulls up rope, leaving foe to starve to death in wilderness:: The guy, if he's just Fascinated, is also standing there awestruck drooling as you play music at him. This is magic. Of course it doesn't make logical sense. Thorak, I'll admit I'm a bit confused as to the RAW regarding the amount of times you can use suggestion during the fascinate duration. The fact that it doesn't break concentration on the fascinate ability is spelled out quite clearly, and while the article, "a" is indefinite, it also means "one." It could be interpreted two ways, neither of which I'm certain. All I can see is that one seems rather overpowering, even considering the Bard's limitations, and the other seems just powerful enough. Unless the sage has clarified the rule, I think the "as written" aspect of the rule is up to some interpretation. So you Fascinate, and then make a Suggestion. What, then, is preventing you from making another on later rounds? It doesn't say "one". That the article "a" could mean one is irrelevant, because in this case it does; you're making a single Suggestion. It doesn't say only one. It says one per use of Suggestion. You'd have to find something else to make a limitation of once per Fascinate. It's like arguing that "You can cast a spell in combat" means you can only cast one single spell during the whole combat. |
| Nephlite04-04-05, 08:29 AM | I don't know about the change part, but I've wanted to shoot more than a couple of street performers in my day... Yes, but that is evil thoughts. You are turning to the dark side, young padawon. And it doesn't matter if you are aware if they surprise you. |
| NineInchNall04-04-05, 05:54 PM | Surprise deals not only with awareness, but also with expectation. If awareness were sufficient to negate surprise, then, as I said, there would be no surprise except for when someone sneaks up behind you. Excuse my foul language, but poppycock. So something happens to you unexpectedly -- are you surprised? Well, yes, by definition. So you have to wait to roll initiative. |
| Gemstone04-04-05, 06:36 PM | The problem is that the pool of acid could be green and bubbling, and the Suggestion would still work. I don't see anything in the example in the PHB stating that the pool of acid looks like water. Though I'm generally more inclined to your view; I'd say you'd have to Suggest once to change their perception, and a second time to get them to do what it was you want. But that's me, and I may be houseruling. Depending on if they knew if it was acid or not, I would give them a very high circumstance bonus to their save |
| DolArrah04-04-05, 09:05 PM | If you were given a chance to pilot a helicopter, would you? A fly spell would be like that, only better, so the target would want to experience the 'joy of flying'. I would d it, if I believed that they really would do it. |
| Thorak04-04-05, 09:11 PM | Surprise deals not only with awareness, but also with expectation. If awareness were sufficient to negate surprise, then, as I said, there would be no surprise except for when someone sneaks up behind you. Excuse my foul language, but poppycock. So something happens to you unexpectedly -- are you surprised? Well, yes, by definition. So you have to wait to roll initiative. I suggest you read the PHB. Page 137; "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised." The entire rest of the Surprise section deals with determining Awareness, the effects of being unaware, and how the surprise round plays out between aware and unaware opponents. For D&D, Surprise is awareness. Absolutely nothing else. If you're talking, and a guy quickdraws a dagger and attacks you, that's initiative. If you walk into a room and an orc spots you and charges, that's initiative. If a Bard suddenly starts singing, that's initiative. It's no different than any of these other situations. The word you might be looking for to represent "surprised" is "flat-footed". If you lose initiative, you're flat-footed, and take some significant penalties because you were "surprised" by the sudden action. But it's not what D&D calls Surprise. That's directly, and only, tied to awareness. |
| Christman04-04-05, 09:37 PM | Well personally, this is what my Bard is planning. ::Gain Succubus as traveling buddy somehow, probably a few scrolls:: Fascinate, Suggest that they all line up to kiss the drop dead georgous girl standing next to you. Watch them all drop like flies. |
| Norseman04-04-05, 10:06 PM | Fixed. Fixed. |
| NineInchNall04-05-05, 12:59 AM | I suggest you read the PHB. Page 137; "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised." ... For D&D, Surprise is awareness. Absolutely nothing else. If you're talking, and a guy quickdraws a dagger and attacks you, that's initiative. If you walk into a room and an orc spots you and charges, that's initiative. If a Bard suddenly starts singing, that's initiative. It's no different than any of these other situations. The word you might be looking for to represent "surprised" is "flat-footed". If you lose initiative, you're flat-footed, and take some significant penalties because you were "surprised" by the sudden action. But it's not what D&D calls Surprise. That's directly, and only, tied to awareness. Does it say that "surprised if and only if unaware"? No? Then you're reading it in too limited a fashion. It's sort of like saying, "if a weapon deals your character enough damage to drop his total hp to -10, then he dies." This does not mean that weapons are the only way to kill your character, which is what your reading methodology would require. |
| Korimyr the Rat04-05-05, 03:46 AM | The problem is, you all seem to be drastically overestimating the power of Suggestion. Suggestion allows you to suggest that someone take a reasonable course of action. While this is rather up to the DM's discretion, some logic should apply here. If the pool of acid does not look like water, a suggestion to swim in it is unreasonable. If you are wearing armor and expecting trouble, taking off your armor and taking a swim is unreasonable. Hell, if you're in town and have some reservations about being seen naked, stripping down to take a swim is unreasonable. I hate water and I hate being seen unclothed. Nothing short of command or dominate person is going to get me to strip down and take a swim. Giving strangers all of your money or other valuable possessions is unreasonable. Giving a handful of change or a couple dollars to a street performer is reasonable-- giving your life savings is not. Jumping off of a cliff is unreasonable, even if the Bard has offered to cast a fly spell on you. Sure, I'll probably let him cast fly on me, but I ain't going over the edge of that cliff until I'm already flying under my own power. Now, suggesting that I kiss the properly disguised Succubus might work; kissing beautiful women that you think are attracted to you is reasonable. Of course, kissing her after the last person to do so just dropped dead at your feet... that's unreasonable. The Bard's suggestion ability is useful, and in the right circumstances, very powerful. It's not game-breaking or even particularly dangerous unless the DM has a mind-bogglingly stupid interpretation of the word "reasonable". |
| magicmarker1304-05-05, 04:22 AM | Doing so would require you to grapple anyone who starts reciting poetry or any other form of rythmic chanting that you see as a bard. That's something I would call meta-game thinking I hardly see that as meta-gaming, it's like readying against someone casting a spell. Wizards are just as powerful if left unchecked, like a bard. yeah, i must say that is probably one of the most metagame sentences i've ever heard. lots of people run around in fantasy settings in light armor. lots of people use their voice. most people in their lives have recited some poetry, told a story or have sung a song. going around readying an action to kill anyone that decides to just plain speak is INCREDIBLY metagame, and incredibly paranoid as well. your character must really hate going to taverns then, 'cause most of them have entertainers and patrons just sitting around talking. and not all entertainers are bards, keep that in mind. your character must not be very popular in the fantasy setting in general if it runs around with a readied action to stab the next person who talks to them. not all bards play lute, not all bards sing, my bard just has perform: oratory, he's a smooth talker. are you going to kill every smooth talker you meet? are you going to kill every singer you meet? are you going to flat out kill every person you meet out of fear they will control your mind? ... have you had a bad experience with an illithid? readying an action against any person who begins to sing? seriously... |
| BlaineTog04-05-05, 04:23 AM | Suggestion allows you to suggest that someone take a reasonable course of action.No. That is not it at all. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable.Leaving out those bolded words drastically changes the meaning of the sentence, and therefore use of the spell. |
| Thorak04-05-05, 08:47 AM | Does it say that "surprised if and only if unaware"? No? Then you're reading it in too limited a fashion. It's sort of like saying, "if a weapon deals your character enough damage to drop his total hp to -10, then he dies." This does not mean that weapons are the only way to kill your character, which is what your reading methodology would require. Then kindly provide a direct quotation linking Surprise to anything but awareness. If you cannot, then there are no other options beyond houserules. And the implication isn't that awareness is one thing that can cause Surprise. Awareness is all Surprise talks about. There isn't the remotest inkling that there are any other things which can cause surprise. Unless you can provide a direct quote showing otherwise, you're simply incorrect. The problem is, you all seem to be drastically overestimating the power of Suggestion. Suggestion allows you to suggest that someone take a reasonable course of action. While this is rather up to the DM's discretion, some logic should apply here. See Blainetog's quoting of the actual effect. It doesn't have to be at all reasonable. As long as it's worded in such a way as to sound reasonable. If the pool of acid does not look like water, a suggestion to swim in it is unreasonable. If you are wearing armor and expecting trouble, taking off your armor and taking a swim is unreasonable. Hell, if you're in town and have some reservations about being seen naked, stripping down to take a swim is unreasonable. I hate water and I hate being seen unclothed. Nothing short of command or dominate person is going to get me to strip down and take a swim. We're talking about magical mind-alteration here. "Oh come on, everyone here won't look, and you have to get over this hatred somehow. Take a dip." Done. If you're going to hold onto the "it doesn't look like water" argument, then add in "Yes, it looks like acid, but that's just an illusion, it's really water." Giving strangers all of your money or other valuable possessions is unreasonable. Giving a handful of change or a couple dollars to a street performer is reasonable-- giving your life savings is not. "Your mother's been kidnapped, and I need every penny you've got to help pay the ransom!" Jumping off of a cliff is unreasonable, even if the Bard has offered to cast a fly spell on you. Sure, I'll probably let him cast fly on me, but I ain't going over the edge of that cliff until I'm already flying under my own power. "I've got Feather Fall. It's fun, you float like a feather, it's a rush. You gotta jump off for it to work, though, because the magic dissipates the moment you touch ground." Now, suggesting that I kiss the properly disguised Succubus might work; kissing beautiful women that you think are attracted to you is reasonable. Of course, kissing her after the last person to do so just dropped dead at your feet... that's unreasonable. "They're just overcome by emotion, she's a heck of a kisser. If it's good enough to knock you out, don't you want a shot?" The Bard's suggestion ability is useful, and in the right circumstances, very powerful. It's not game-breaking or even particularly dangerous unless the DM has a mind-bogglingly stupid interpretation of the word "reasonable". As long as the explanation sounds reasonable, it works. All of the above are reasonable explanations for the circumstances you provided. The limits to Suggestion are almost entirely the caster's imagination. This is what makes enchantment, and it's hideously powerful cousin, illusion, the most powerful schools of magic, in the right hands. Plenty of magic can kill someone outright. Only Enchantment or Illusion can get them to fight on your side instead, which is even better. |
| Elessar04-05-05, 10:50 AM | Thorak: I concede to you on two points, (1) the fact that Suggestion is only limited to imagination and you could indeed get someone to do anything, and (2) you seem to be correct about the rules as written. Beyond being persuaded of these things however, I'm still in disagreement about the situation of rolling initiative for a bard abruptly using a bardic performance to fascinate someone. While people are free to play their games howsoever they choose, it's my opinion that the rules as written can't be used as the final word in this case. Common sense would dictate that if a bard began to work magic on someone by something indiscernable from regular (or even exceptionally enjoyable) song, speech, or dance, that the subject could be unaware of the magic of the activity even if the attempt failed. If in your campaign bardic magic manifests in a manner that highlights its magical nature, then I suppose that would be cause to call for initiative, but it's difficult to be aware of an opponent (and I say "aware" without referring to the legalese version of the word presented in the RAW) when you don't even realize that the person is your opponent or that they are attacking you. In a campaign where a bardic performance appears to be simply a well-performed song, would not the DM have to call for initiative for every mundane street performer because they might be bards using bardic performances? The Quick Drawing of a weapon appears threatening; you know that person is your enemy as soon as they draw their weapon, whether it happens as a move action or a free action. Speed of action is not the issue, it's the knowledge that an action of any importance has taken place. The rules work in the name of fairness and allowing the game to work, but they don't follow the laws of common sense. If the rules were implemented in the way you are stating they work, once the person who is having a Fascinate ability used on them rolls initiative and begins to attack the bard, couldn't the bard just say "Geez, is my singing that bad?" Within the reality of the game, the subversiveness of the bard's ability allows him to outmaneuver getting into a combat situation. This isn't Magic: the Gathering where regardless of the card's name and the pretty picture on the card, all that matters is the exact words and syntax that are spelled out on the card and how they apply to game rules. I realize your response is written only with regards to the RAW, Thorak, but my argument, as it stands right now, is dealing more with common sense, and I suppose is more dealing with the realm of my opinions on proper DM adjudication. All that said, I acknowledge that my interpretation and disregard for the RAW presents a more unbalancing aspect in the way the game is played if you're concerned with such things. I can't explain it other than to say that between playing the balanced way and the unbalanced way, the unbalanced way strangely makes more sense to me in reference to the verisimilitude of the game world. |
| ajb4704-05-05, 12:00 PM | We're talking about magical mind-alteration here. "Oh come on, everyone here won't look, and you have to get over this hatred somehow. Take a dip." Done. I think this might actually depend on how the target has previously behaved towards water. My wife plays a bard in my current campaign who has a phobia about water. Phobias by there very nature are unreasonable fears. I don't think a suggestion would work against a phobia. "Your mother's been kidnapped, and I need every penny you've got to help pay the ransom!" I'm not sure it's all that reasonable to give your entire life savings to a stranger who says this to you. At least not without a whole lot of "Who the heck are you? How do you know? Where is she?" etc. to support it. Of course, this does not preclude ther bard from disguising himself as a Captain of the Watch, which might make the Suggestion more reasonable. As long as the explanation sounds reasonable, it works. All of the above are reasonable explanations for the circumstances you provided. The limits to Suggestion are almost entirely the caster's imagination. Yes, and my thoughts are admittedly rather specific cases that could be gotten around (maybe Suggest the "water" is only shin deep -- that could be enough to overcome the phobia, or the Captain of the Watch trick). It's just that my wife actually has a phobia of water (and gave it to her character this time), and I'm not really sure you could word a Suggestion "reasonably" enough to oversome an ingrained phobia. AJ |
| Elessar04-05-05, 02:09 PM | Well, in all fairness, the fact that certain people might have certain phobias doesn't make the ability significantly less powerful. What are the odds of an evil bard randomly meeting a hydrophobic person at a pool of acid? It's so hypothetical as to not really matter. :/ |
| Korimyr the Rat04-05-05, 02:14 PM | No. That is not it at all. Leaving out those bolded words drastically changes the meaning of the sentence, and therefore use of the spell. You are still operating under a completely ridiculous intepretation of the word "reasonable"-- as it concerns the phrase "sounds reasonable". Swimming in pools of acid and handing someone your life's savings are not reasonable, and it would take a hell of a lot more than "don't worry, it's an illusion" or "your mother's been kidnapped" to make it sound reasonable. See Blainetog's quoting of the actual effect. It doesn't have to be at all reasonable. As long as it's worded in such a way as to sound reasonable. Addressed. That said... your Feather Fall example isn't bad. If you actually cast feather fall to go with it, or you could convince them you had, you'd definitely be able to get rid of them for as long as it took them to climb back up. Now, your swimming ideas make some sense-- be a good way to get someone out of their armor. There's just no way you're going to get someone to jump into a pool of acid because it'd be "refreshing". Suggestion is powerful enough without using faulty interpretation to make it more powerful than command or lesser geas. |
| VirgilCaine04-05-05, 05:17 PM | We're talking about magical mind-alteration here. "Oh come on, everyone here won't look, and you have to get over this hatred somehow. Take a dip." If you're going to hold onto the "it doesn't look like water" argument, then add in "Yes, it looks like acid, but that's just an illusion, it's really water." "They're just overcome by emotion, she's a heck of a kisser. If it's good enough to knock you out, don't you want a shot?" "Here, I'll cast Invisibility on you. No one will see you, don't worry." * Note: Bards have Silent Image on their spell list and so actually could make the acid look like water. Great Kisser: :rofl: |
| Thorak04-05-05, 08:52 PM | You are still operating under a completely ridiculous intepretation of the word "reasonable"-- as it concerns the phrase "sounds reasonable". Swimming in pools of acid and handing someone your life's savings are not reasonable, and it would take a hell of a lot more than "don't worry, it's an illusion" or "your mother's been kidnapped" to make it sound reasonable. Does needing to pay a ransom because your mother's been kidnapped sound like it might be reasonable? Yes. Ergo, it works. That's why this is a magical effect, and not a Bluff. Addressed. That said... your Feather Fall example isn't bad. If you actually cast feather fall to go with it, or you could convince them you had, you'd definitely be able to get rid of them for as long as it took them to climb back up. Everyone in a D&D world is aware of magic, they just can't afford it themselves most of the time. It's about the same difficulty of belief as me saying "I used to play college football". Not many did, but there's little reason to be suspicious of it. Now, your swimming ideas make some sense-- be a good way to get someone out of their armor. There's just no way you're going to get someone to jump into a pool of acid because it'd be "refreshing". From the description of Suggestion; "Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter." Getting someone to jump into a pool of acid because it'd be refreshing isn't just reasonable, it's the example used in the description of the spell. That's why we've been using it as an example; because it explicitly does work that way. Suggestion is powerful enough without using faulty interpretation to make it more powerful than command or lesser geas. Command lasts only 1 round, and isn't limited to reasonable things. And it's level 1, whereas Suggestion is level 2-3 (depending on class), so Suggestion should be more powerful. Lesser Geas is a level higher than Suggestion, and is more powerful. Lasts 1 day/level, as opposed to 1 hour/level, and doesn't have to be reasonable, just not suicidal. You could Geas a king to be your personal manservant and wipe your arse for you when you take a dump. Whereas that would be fairly unreasonable a Suggestion, in most cases. So I don't see your point. It should be stronger than Command, and is weaker than Lesser Geas, as it should be. |
| BlaineTog04-05-05, 10:11 PM | You are still operating under a completely ridiculous intepretation of the word "reasonable"-- as it concerns the phrase "sounds reasonable".You are still ignoring the better part of the sentence in question. "sounds reasonable" and "actually reasonable" are two completelly different things. People make unreasonable things sound reasonable all the time; that is part of the job of rhetoric. Swimming in pools of acid and handing someone your life's savings are not reasonable, and it would take a hell of a lot more than "don't worry, it's an illusion" or "your mother's been kidnapped" to make it sound reasonable.Not for an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting] effect. What you are suggesting is essentially that suggestion is functionally no different than making the suggestion without the spell. Regarding the original question of the thread: The one indication in the description of the bard's "Suggesion" ability that it can only be used once per person per Fascinate is the indefinite article "a," and only an indefinite article "a." Now, if you read this strictly, and in the way those of you who espouse this view claim we should, then the bard can only ever make one Suggestion attempt in his entier career. I don't see how your reading of the ability can lead to any other conclusion as there's nothing explicitly saying that he can ever make more than one in total. Clearly, that's crazy-talk. No class in the PHB has a one-time-use-only ability, and if they did, it would certainly be better than Suggestion at 6th level. |
| Elessar04-05-05, 10:15 PM | Everyone in a D&D world is aware of magic While the associated point is taken, I'd like to make the minor aside that this statement depends on the campaign. |
| VirgilCaine04-05-05, 10:27 PM | While the associated point is taken, I'd like to make the minor aside that this statement depends on the campaign. Also the very belabored point that the bardic music effect doesn't register as spellcasting--it's humming, whistling, miming, reciting poetics or playing an instrument. |
| Elessar04-05-05, 11:00 PM | Well, he was saying it in reference to the Feather Fall, not the bard's suggestion, but yeah, that is an important point that seems ignored by some. |
| Thorak04-06-05, 12:11 AM | While the associated point is taken, I'd like to make the minor aside that this statement depends on the campaign. Yes, but I was citing the DMG, which was discussing a standard D&D world. In a standard D&D world, commoners are perfectly aware of magic. It's like plasma TVs; you know they're out there, you have a rough idea what they're like, but unless you're fairly wealthy, you won't be buying one. |
| mrpopstar04-07-05, 12:18 PM | On the subject of "Surprise." Player's Handbook 3.5(pg. 137): "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised." The key term here is opponents. Dictionary.com(opponent): noun : one that opposes another or others in a battle adj : characterized by active hostility If the aforementioned bard were to begin singing in a situation where all involved were considered to be of any attitude other than Hostile (Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, Helpful), then the bard's Fascination and following Suggestion would most certainly be a surprise since he would be an opponent that his "victims" were not aware of. This is of course in reference to those who state that the bard utilizing his Fascination ability constitutes the roll of initiative(which I do not agree with). |
| Thorak04-07-05, 01:35 PM | Except that the very same moment he becomes an "opponent", if his enemies are aware of his presence, they're aware of him as an opponent. |
| mrpopstar04-07-05, 02:18 PM | I am loving this! Yesterday the bard was a support-role, combat-weak, pesky annoyance of a guy who was good only for party buffs, haggling prices and making a little extra money so the party could arm him with a wand or two. Today the bard is an insanely powerful threat everyone loathes, fears and walks around readying actions against should they encounter one. :rolleyes: Thorak: Except that the very same moment he becomes an "opponent", if his enemies are aware of his presence, they're aware of him as an opponent.What? :confused: What if his "enemies" are guys having a good time in a tavern, listening to the bard tell a tale of his party's past adventures? Do you assume that these guys (i.e. "enemies") consider the bard an "opponent"? There is a very obvious flaw in your scenario. Except that the very same moment he becomes an "opponent", if his enemies are aware of his presence, they're aware of him as an opponent.It has already been stated that any manner of subterfuge (something the bard is adept in, as evidenced by the class skill Disguise) would render the bard's "enemies" unaware of his presence (as a potential Fascinating threat) and thus unaware of him as an "opponent". |
| ajs04-07-05, 02:41 PM | All kidding aside, but I think that readying an action if a bard starts chanting is worthwhile. I would silence or grapple that entertainer so quick he'd forget the song... So this thread started out how again? Oh yeah: is fascinate useful? Right. Now, you've just demonstrated that the bard can GUARANTEE distracting at least one opponent while the wizard readies whatever the heck hellfire he's going to unleash and the cleric is blowing the first round on bless/aid/whatever. Tell me again why bringing the bard along was a bad idea? If that were a fighter, you'd tumble your way past him to get at the mage, but this is a BARD, and you know damn well that ignoring him means you're going to (as someone pointed out above) end up naked in the woods tomorrow morning... why bards have such a strong desire to steal people's clothes... well, that's part of the training. A lot of you think that bardic music is a way of life to make money as a typical civilian entertainer, but I see it as a form of "charm person" that is there to robe you of everything you got and leave you nothing but the lint in your shorts. It's both, and anyone who knows that is going to think twice about messing with the party that has a bard in it. Fascinate is either useless or stunningly powerful, depending on the skill of the player. |
| mrpopstar04-07-05, 02:53 PM | ajs:Fascinate is either useless or stunningly powerful, depending on the skill of the player.I second this, with one addendum. Fascinate is either useless or stunningly powerful, depending on the skill of the player and the liberal attitude of the DM. Playing an effective bard is 50/50 player/DM. If you have a stickler of a DM who is completely resistant to the witty power of Fascinate (or any of the DM adjudicated bard abilities for that matter) then you are :censored: out of luck when it comes to giving 100% as a bard. |
| Thorak04-07-05, 04:07 PM | What if his "enemies" are guys having a good time in a tavern, listening to the bard tell a tale of his party's past adventures? Do you assume that these guys (i.e. "enemies") consider the bard an "opponent"? The moment he becomes an opponent, yes. Awareness isn't whether you think someone's an opponent. It's whether you're aware of them. If they then attack you, you're aware of what they're doing and can react. Otherwise, you're claiming I can walk in, quickdraw my sword, and get a free shot on anyone I want. Which isn't remotely true. There is a very obvious flaw in your scenario. It has already been stated that any manner of subterfuge (something the bard is adept in, as evidenced by the class skill Disguise) would render the bard's "enemies" unaware of his presence (as a potential Fascinating threat) and thus unaware of him as an "opponent". [/list][/indent][/quote] No, they render them unaware of his identity. They're still perfectly aware there's someone there, and if that person attacks them, he is an opponent. The skill to avoid being noticed is hide. As for your last comment about DM support; if your DM screws with what they allow you to do, they're houseruling. We're not discussing bad houserules DMs force on their players. We're discussing whether the bard, as written, is crap or strong. |
| Nephlite04-07-05, 04:31 PM | The moment he becomes an opponent, yes. Awareness isn't whether you think someone's an opponent. It's whether you're aware of them. If they then attack you, you're aware of what they're doing and can react. Otherwise, you're claiming I can walk in, quickdraw my sword, and get a free shot on anyone I want. Which isn't remotely true. Yeah, walk in and strike someone is a surprise attack. After that round because you struck at them you are an opponent so everyone rolls intitiative. |
| yonman04-07-05, 04:58 PM | Guess I have to respond one last time. Not that it matters since I've repeated the same thing over again. But... I totally disagree during game play when people just say, i'm going to walk up and strike that guy and get a "free round of surprise" automatically with no die rolls necessary. Sorry, that kind of game play does not jive with me. Whether it is the DM doing to to a PC or vice versa. That kind of game play without die rolls is totally unfair and unbalanced. All it does is make for open comments on "who can say what they're going to do first" out of combat. This is a d20 system, use it, or figure out a way to add a random effect that's visual instead of verbal. |
| Nephlite04-07-05, 06:16 PM | Guess I have to respond one last time. Not that it matters since I've repeated the same thing over again. But... I totally disagree during game play when people just say, i'm going to walk up and strike that guy and get a "free round of surprise" automatically with no die rolls necessary. Sorry, that kind of game play does not jive with me. Whether it is the DM doing to to a PC or vice versa. That kind of game play without die rolls is totally unfair and unbalanced. All it does is make for open comments on "who can say what they're going to do first" out of combat. This is a d20 system, use it, or figure out a way to add a random effect that's visual instead of verbal. You have to roll the 1d20 to see if you hit so dice are involved. How is it unbalancing, it is a surprise attack! How do you define a surprise attack? |
| yonman04-07-05, 06:41 PM | Good grief, read all of my previous posts... P.S. When I meant no die rolls, I meant that there are no rolls to check if the opponent is surprised. (i.e. Some people automatically assume that there is surprise based on who shouts out their action first, if they are going to do something out-of-combat.) |
| Cardinal Teplin04-07-05, 08:39 PM | Walking into a room and drawing a sword, even quickdrawing a sword, and everyone is aware of you as an opponenent. No surprise for you. It doesn't matter that you had decided to both draw your sword, and also to hit someone. You don't get a set amount of action before other people get to go, because there isn't a combat. The combat starts when you draw your sword, and the chances are good that someone will get to go before you can go on to hit your target. Similarly with a bard. He can start singing, and try to facinate you. If you're in a tavern, the chances are you wouldn't get a chance to interrupt him without some serious metagaming. If you've met the guy before, and are standing in your underwear because of the last time you let him sing at you, even opening his mouth to speak is probably going to trigger a combat What I find usually happens with bards is that, when facing a group of people, someone, somewhere in the room, is going to pass his save. If you're a good bard, people are probably going to enjoy listening to you anyway, so you don't know who it is. Sooner or later that person is going to notice his companions behaving oddly, and act. Simply giving their comrade a good hard slap (1hp subdual) is enough to bring them round. Sure it's useful to take out anyone by themselves, but then that's something that every class can do, given a victim that is not expecting attack. |
| Elessar04-07-05, 08:53 PM | The moment he becomes an opponent, yes. Awareness isn't whether you think someone's an opponent. It's whether you're aware of ... blah blah blah... You seem to have ignored one of my posts. I'd rather just avoid the semantics debate that arises from your reading of the rules, so I'm just curious: after you win intiative after this "provocation" what are you supposed to do? Player: "Okay I won initiative , so I attack the bard." DM: "Okay, you hit. Roll for damage... a 5. He takes the damage, rubs his elbow and says, 'WTF, I was just singing you a song.... jerk. Guards! This guy just attacked me with a freakin' halberd in the middle of a love ballad!'" Player: "But I thought... he was using a bardic performance on me... you told me to roll initiative." DM: "I know that and you know that, but your character didn't know that. He must be in a fit of sudden rage or something." Player: "I'm gonna get arrested! Can I..." DM: "No do-overs! Thorak told me how the rule works and I'm stickin' to it!" The way you're reading the rules for initiative creates an incident, in this case, of the DM prompting metagame knowledge from his players. From pg 11 of DMG 3.5: Any time the players base their characters' actions on logic that depends on the fact that they're playing a game; they're using metagame thinking. This behavior should always be discouraged, because it detracts from the real role-playing and spoils the suspension of disbelief. In other words, the moment you tell your player to roll for initiative, you're betraying to them the knowledge that a bardic performance is being covertly used on them. While it is logical to assume in the midst of battle, in a fantasy world that is, that the person who's singing is a bard (because the character has this knowledge, assumedly), the only way the players know in this case that the person is a bard is because the DM just clued them in. He also told them that the bard is an enemy, and if the players know the rules, they can now guess that the bard is using a bardic performance on them, which pretty much narrows it down to fascinate. I realize you are married to this interpretation of the rules because you are concerned with the verbiage as written rather than as it should be written, but to glaze over the clear fact that it not only encourages but prompts metagaming is folly, since it harms the very integrity of the game. |
| Elessar04-07-05, 09:40 PM | A few other interesting passages from the DMG: (pg 25) While the combat actions defined in the Player's Handbook are numerous and fairly comprehensive, they cannot begin to cover every possible action that a character might want to take. Your job is to make up rules on the spot to handle such things. House-ruling? Yes. Necessary? According to the DMG. (pg 25) under Combat Actions Outside Combat Rather than copy more DMG, I'll boil this one down. It says you can use the combat structure to govern non-combat situations. In that case, sure... roll initiative. No need for surprise rounds, you can react to the bard's singing if you want to. But unless it's applause it's awfully rude, because in the game world, it's not a fight until you know it's a fight. |
| Thorak04-07-05, 09:47 PM | You seem to have ignored one of my posts. I'd rather just avoid the semantics debate that arises from your reading of the rules, so I'm just curious: after you win intiative after this "provocation" what are you supposed to do? Player: "Okay I won initiative , so I attack the bard." DM: "Okay, you hit. Roll for damage... a 5. He takes the damage, rubs his elbow and says, 'WTF, I was just singing you a song.... jerk. Guards! This guy just attacked me with a freakin' halberd in the middle of a love ballad!'" Player: "But I thought... he was using a bardic performance on me... you told me to roll initiative." DM: "I know that and you know that, but your character didn't know that. He must be in a fit of sudden rage or something." Player: "I'm gonna get arrested! Can I..." DM: "No do-overs! Thorak told me how the rule works and I'm stickin' to it!" The way you're reading the rules for initiative creates an incident, in this case, of the DM prompting metagame knowledge from his players. It doesn't create an incident. All I'm saying is it's not Surprise. If they're ready for you, and suspect something, it's an initiative roll. No freebies. If you're just singing in a pub, and suddenly switch to bardic music, then no, everyone in the pub isn't going to be rolling initiative, because they're not aware anyone's doing anything aggressive yet. In other words, the moment you tell your player to roll for initiative, you're betraying to them the knowledge that a bardic performance is being covertly used on them. While it is logical to assume in the midst of battle, in a fantasy world that is, that the person who's singing is a bard (because the character has this knowledge, assumedly), the only way the players know in this case that the person is a bard is because the DM just clued them in. He also told them that the bard is an enemy, and if the players know the rules, they can now guess that the bard is using a bardic performance on them, which pretty much narrows it down to fascinate. I realize you are married to this interpretation of the rules because you are concerned with the verbiage as written rather than as it should be written, but to glaze over the clear fact that it not only encourages but prompts metagaming is folly, since it harms the very integrity of the game. I am only talking about how Bardic Music doesn't give you a free Surprise round. There's no need to metagame attacking the bard if you have no reason to suspect anything. Same as you wouldn't metagame being ready when the rogue palms a dagger, sidles up to you, and then stabs you in the throat. It's not a Surprise round because the only thing happening before general initiative is that one triggering effect. Everyone's aware of everyone else (I assume, if the Rogue's hiding, he now gets a surprise round), so no Surprise. Just a single combat-triggering action. If they even realize what's going on. I'm not suggesting you be an idiot and ignore basic considerations. I'm saying use the right terminology to describe what you're talking about. In this case, Surprise is the wrong term to use, since it's a very specific term in D&D and does not apply in this case. |
| Elessar04-07-05, 11:14 PM | Aha. In that case, pardon the misunderstanding. I assumed, given the general current of the thread, that you were arguing against the notion of a bardic performance not taking an unsuspecting person unawares. Namely, yonman's insisting that such a situation (like singing in a pub and then switching to bardic performance) requires some special warning roll for fairness. And to yonman, yes, it's fighting dirty, but people fight dirty in real life. And yes, there's some burden placed upon the DM to keep things fair. Like I said before, if he uses an evil NPC bard to get you to jump off a cliff, he doesn't want you as a friend because he's intentionally ruining your game with cheese. The suggested course of action is to find a new, more mature friend, teach him or her how to play D&D, and get them to DM for you. On the other hand, if your DM uses an evil NPC bard to get you to perform a murder on his behalf and take the blame, he just found a really clever adventure hook for an adventure to escape the law and clear your good name. In such a case, he deserves a pat on the back, since he's adding to your fun by supplying you with an interesting adventure you wouldn't have otherwise found yourself in. :D The important thing to remember is that it's all up to the DM's common sense and fairness, both necessary qualities in a good DM. |
| mrpopstar04-08-05, 02:10 AM | Thorak: In that case, pardon the misunderstanding. I assumed, given the general current of the thread, that you were arguing against the notion of a bardic performance not taking an unsuspecting person unawares. Namely, yonman's insisting that such a situation (like singing in a pub and then switching to bardic performance) requires some special warning roll for fairness.I am guilty of the same. :embarrass |
| Lael04-11-05, 01:47 AM | I'm surprised no one has mention the Subsonics feat which was in S&S, not sure if it was updated in CA. Basically it let you play so softley that opponents didn't notice it, and unless they actually saw you performing or had some other means of working out where it come from, they couldn't determine the source. So that would through another factor into the situation, that you could be hiding behind something, facinate the person and then come out and do your suggestion. :D |
| Vaelan04-11-05, 02:37 AM | It is my understanding that a person knows when they succeed a save against a Compulsion spell. Assuming my above statement is correct, I would submit that a reasonable person would perceive an attempt to subvert their free will as an "obvious threat", and thus a failed Suggestion would break Fascinate. If my opening statement is not true, then I think I'll be taking Still and Silent Spell, Sudden Still and Silent, and Metamagic Rods of Still and Silent so that I may sufficiently abuse their ignorance of the fact that I am casting Dominate Person on them repeatedly. Metamagic Rod of Still... how silly. |
| BlaineTog04-11-05, 03:55 AM | It is my understanding that a person knows when they succeed a save against a Compulsion spell.Technically speaking, the bard's Suggestion ability isn't a spell per se. Assuming my above statement is correct, I would submit that a reasonable person would perceive an attempt to subvert their free will as an "obvious threat", and thus a failed Suggestion would break Fascinate.Ah, but here's the thing: if we assume that it is a threat, it's a past tense threat, not a present tense threat. All the examples given are in the present tense: drawing a sword, casting a spell. You can fascinate someone even if another character is holding a sword, just so long as someone doesn't draw a sword. Semantics aside, if this was the way it was supposed to work, it would be explicitly spelled out. It also wouldn't say this: "Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect." |
| Thorak04-11-05, 06:46 AM | It is my understanding that a person knows when they succeed a save against a Compulsion spell. From the PHB: "A creature that successfully saves against a spellthat has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." However, the fact that the Suggestion ability of Bards explicitly neither breaks the Bard's concentration on Fascinate, nor allows a second saving throw against Fascinate, let alone automatically breaking it, I'd say that this is an exception to even that vague wording. |
| Vaelan04-12-05, 03:13 AM | Technically speaking, the bard's Suggestion ability isn't a spell per se. According to the PHB it functions as the suggestion spell. The MM entry on Spell-like Abilities would support my statement, since it says, "Spell-like Abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components)." However, the fact that the Suggestion ability of Bards explicitly neither breaks the Bard's concentration on Fascinate, nor allows a second saving throw against Fascinate, let alone automatically breaking it, I'd say that this is an exception to even that vague wording. It says that using the ability does not allow another saving throw. However, the hostile force they feel is not a part of using the spell, it is the result upon a successful save. All that line means is that the fascinated creature does not notice that the Bard is using a Spell-like Ability, which would certainly at least allow another saving throw if the fascinated creature were able to identify the Spell-like Ability as a Suggestion. |
| Thorak04-12-05, 08:08 AM | It says that using the ability does not allow another saving throw. However, the hostile force they feel is not a part of using the spell, it is the result upon a successful save. All that line means is that the fascinated creature does not notice that the Bard is using a Spell-like Ability, which would certainly at least allow another saving throw if the fascinated creature were able to identify the Spell-like Ability as a Suggestion. It's a hostile force or a tingle. Since a hostile force would break the Fascinate, and Suggestion explicitly does not even allow a second saving throw, let alone auto-break it, I'll go with 'tingle'. |
| Vaelan04-12-05, 07:37 PM | Suggestion explicitly does not even allow a second saving throw, let alone auto-break it I think you need to re-read the ability. Using this ability does not break the bard's concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Emphasis mine. As you can see, the only thing this sentence explicitly says is that the fascinated creature does not get a second saving throw because the fascinator uses their suggestion ability. The result of the ability (they follow the suggestion or feel a hostile force if they succeed the save) is not a part of "using" the ability and thus a successful save would at least allow another saving throw against the fascinate (big deal) or would, more likely, instantly break it since feeling a "hostile force" is more likely to be an "obvious threat" than a "potential threat", especially if you have ever succeeded a save against a spell with no obvious physical effects before. |
| Thorak04-12-05, 10:54 PM | I think you need to re-read the ability. Emphasis mine. As you can see, the only thing this sentence explicitly says is that the fascinated creature does not get a second saving throw because the fascinator uses their suggestion ability. The result of the ability (they follow the suggestion or feel a hostile force if they succeed the save) is not a part of "using" the ability and thus a successful save would at least allow another saving throw against the fascinate (big deal) or would, more likely, instantly break it since feeling a "hostile force" is more likely to be an "obvious threat" than a "potential threat", especially if you have ever succeeded a save against a spell with no obvious physical effects before. Are you serious? Using Suggestion doesn't provoke another saving throw. That's what it says. Not intitiating a Suggestion, as you apparently think. The result of the ability is[i] the ability. You're also still not acknowledging that there is [i]no requirement that the target feel a hostile force. The book says it could be, but it could just as easily just be a tingle. If you really push it, I suppose you can hose bards in your own campaign if you really want to, but I have yet to see anyone agree with your interpretation. Especially since there would be no point in talking about how using the ability doesn't break concentration on the Fascinate, or give a second saving throw, if the act of using it meant that, inevitably, the Fascinate was broken. |
| Vaelan04-12-05, 11:44 PM | The result of the ability is the ability. I do not agree with this statement, it is not by any means reasonable, and you have given no support for it. Try again. You're also still not acknowledging that there is no requirement that the target feel a hostile force. The book says it could be, but it could just as easily just be a tingle. I'm sorry, I assumed you were intelligent enough to read the example for the quote you posted. For example, if you secretly cast charm person on a creature and its saving throw succeeds, it knows that someone used magic against it, but it can't tell what you were trying to do. Look at that... "it knows that someone used magic against it". Since there are no mechanics spelled out for which spells alert the target upon a successful save and which spells vaguely tingle, the idea that all spells alert the target is not as unreasonable as you suggest. If you really push it, I suppose you can hose bards in your own campaign if you really want to... Yeah, because that is obviously my intention, seeing as how I DM a group of five that does not include a Bard and play a Bard myself in another campaign! My intentions are utterly transparent before your mighty mental prowess! :rolleyes: I have yet to see anyone agree with your interpretation. Good thing this isn't a popularity contest! You must be lacking in reason-based arguements against my point of view if citing the opinions of an uninformed public is the best you can do, and it most certainly is the best you have done so far. Especially since there would be no point in talking about how using the ability doesn't break concentration on the Fascinate, or give a second saving throw, if the act of using it meant that, inevitably, the Fascinate was broken. In case you haven't actually played a Bard yourself, they get the ability to fascinate multiple people at level four. If one fails a save against suggestion, the others are still fascinated. Also, a failed save against suggestion does not necessarily break the fascinate effect. There are situations where multiple suggestions or delayed suggestions (do this in 30 seconds) can be extremely effective. Sorry Thorak, but you're wrong here. |
| kinem04-13-05, 12:57 AM | It does say the bard can make a suggestion, not one per round. I've always thought it was one per fascination of that creature. This is not a house rule, it's just the wording, and it makes more sense. Of course interpretation of the wording could go either way, like saying that the darkness spell is a light source. Bottom line: the rules as written are not complete; you CAN NOT play RAW if you want to. The RAW does not exist; it doesn't say. You're stuck with 'just an interpretation' either way you go. Blame WotC. On the other hand the rule is clear that if you make the save vs. suggestion, you will feel the effect and this will break the fascination. If you fail the save, the fascination will continue. This may not make much SENSE given the wording of the bard's suggestion, but at least there is no need for interpretation in this case; the RAW is correct: there is indeed no second save vs. the fascination involved. |
| Thorak04-13-05, 01:19 AM | I do not agree with this statement, it is not by any means reasonable, and you have given no support for it. Try again. The result; the target is Suggested. The ability? Suggestion. It's like saying Haste doesn't Haste people. I'm sorry, I assumed you were intelligent enough to read the example for the quote you posted. Look at that... "it knows that someone used magic against it". Since there are no mechanics spelled out for which spells alert the target upon a successful save and which spells vaguely tingle, the idea that all spells alert the target is not as unreasonable as you suggest. It knows someone used magic against it. It doesn't know that it was hostile. A tingle tells you someone used magic against you just as easily. If you're going to cast aspersions on my intelligence, make sure what you're quoting actually means what you think. Yeah, because that is obviously my intention, seeing as how I DM a group of five that does not include a Bard and play a Bard myself in another campaign! My intentions are utterly transparent before your mighty mental prowess! :rolleyes: Well, what you suggest hoses bards. It's like saying a Rogue can only sneak attack if they Hide first. Good thing this isn't a popularity contest! You must be lacking in reason-based arguements against my point of view if citing the opinions of an uninformed public is the best you can do, and it most certainly is the best you have done so far. While an appeal to popularity isn't an argument, I didn't use it as one. It was a comment. However, you attacking my comment as if that said anything about my argument is a straw man. I find it amusing you imply I'm being logically fallacious, while committing a logical fallacy in doing so. In case you haven't actually played a Bard yourself, they get the ability to fascinate multiple people at level four. If one fails a save against suggestion, the others are still fascinated. Also, a failed save against suggestion does not necessarily break the fascinate effect. There are situations where multiple suggestions or delayed suggestions (do this in 30 seconds) can be extremely effective. Sorry Thorak, but you're wrong here. Now you're just being hypocritical. You said that Suggestion was a hostile force. Therefore, since it's a threat, it breaks the Fascinate. And once one guy breaks out, the rest will too. Oh, and kinem; that's a ridiculous argument. That's like saying that, because disarm says you can do it as "a" melee attack, you can only Disarm once a round. Which is ridiculous, and completely contrary to the rules. |
| Roxlimn04-13-05, 03:04 AM | Vaelan: I would argue that the saving throw, whether succesful or not, is part of the events that happen when you use the ability. What rule interpretation are you using that separates the saving throw from the ability? |
| Vaelan04-13-05, 05:20 AM | Using the suggestion ability consists only of concentrating on using the spell-like ability. Since the Bard's suggestion ability works like the spell, the Bard must communicate the suggestion to the victim. This is not a "purely mental action" (the Rules of the Game definition of what using a spell-like ability is), and thus it is obvious that the period of time where the Bard is "using the ability" ends before the Bard voices the suggestion. Since the victim takes a penalty on their saving throw if the suggestion is especially reasonable, the saving throw must take place after the words are spoken, and thus after the Bard is finished "using the ability". No matter how you try to mince words, Thorak, the section entitled Succeeding a Saving Throw is perfectly clear on what the victim does and does not know when they succeed a saving throw. The fact is, they know that somebody tried to use magic against them. The mere possibility that it could be harmful makes it a potential threat, and thus allows another save against fascinate (not that it is a big deal). I disagree that they would not know if it is a harmful spell or not, however. Looking at the section on (harmless) spells, it says "...a targetted creature can attempt a saving throw if desired". This is saying that unless a person explicitly tries to resist a harmless spell, they don't. Naturally, this is a somewhat matter of interpretation and yours could very well differ. However, it is not an unreasonable interpretation, and even if you can find a flaw with it, it does not invalidate the arguement that came before this paragraph, as I never included this point in it. Also, this is a matter of what the person perceives as an obvious threat. Would a character who has been hunted by magic-users for his entire life consider magic being used against him without his knowledge an obvious threat? Yes. Would a normal person? No. Since the Bard is done "using the ability" when the saving throw is succeeded and a successful saving throw causes the victim to know that someone is using magic against them, a successful saving throw against a suggestion would at least register as a "potential threat" and thus could break the fascinate effect. And about your comments as to how I am "hosing Bards" (this has nothing to do with the discussion of the rules), do you honestly think being able to throw suggestions at anyone who fails your fascinate DC (which is everyone) until one sticks is balanced? I'd like to hear why, if you don't mind. |
| Thorak04-13-05, 07:02 AM | Using the suggestion ability consists only of concentrating on using the spell-like ability. Since the Bard's suggestion ability works like the spell, the Bard must communicate the suggestion to the victim. This is not a "purely mental action" (the Rules of the Game definition of what using a spell-like ability is), and thus it is obvious that the period of time where the Bard is "using the ability" ends before the Bard voices the suggestion. Since the victim takes a penalty on their saving throw if the suggestion is especially reasonable, the saving throw must take place after the words are spoken, and thus after the Bard is finished "using the ability". No, because until the saving throw is done, the ability hasn't been used. It's like with a Fireball. It doesn't deal damage until after you make your saving throw attempt. No matter how you try to mince words, Thorak, the section entitled Succeeding a Saving Throw is perfectly clear on what the victim does and does not know when they succeed a saving throw. The fact is, they know that somebody tried to use magic against them. The mere possibility that it could be harmful makes it a potential threat, and thus allows another save against fascinate (not that it is a big deal). Yes, it's clear that they'd know someone used magic against them. It does not say they can tell if the intent is hostile or not. They might, but it might just be a tingle. No matter how you mince words, you can't keep avoiding what the text says. I disagree that they would not know if it is a harmful spell or not, however. Looking at the section on (harmless) spells, it says "...a targetted creature can attempt a saving throw if desired". This is saying that unless a person explicitly tries to resist a harmless spell, they don't. Naturally, this is a somewhat matter of interpretation and yours could very well differ. However, it is not an unreasonable interpretation, and even if you can find a flaw with it, it does not invalidate the arguement that came before this paragraph, as I never included this point in it. Also, this is a matter of what the person perceives as an obvious threat. Would a character who has been hunted by magic-users for his entire life consider magic being used against him without his knowledge an obvious threat? Yes. Would a normal person? No. Right. So for 99.98% of all encounters ever, you don't have a point. Thank you for admitting that much. Since the Bard is done "using the ability" when the saving throw is succeeded and a successful saving throw causes the victim to know that someone is using magic against them, a successful saving throw against a suggestion would at least register as a "potential threat" and thus could break the fascinate effect. No, it has at least an equal probability, and IMHO a more likely one due to the wording of the effect of Suggestion on the existing Fascinate, that they just feel a harmless little tingle. Even if your point separating a saving throw from the ability was relevant, which it isn't, because the ability is still being used as you save. And about your comments as to how I am "hosing Bards" (this has nothing to do with the discussion of the rules), do you honestly think being able to throw suggestions at anyone who fails your fascinate DC (which is everyone) until one sticks is balanced? I'd like to hear why, if you don't mind. Because of how hard it is to get them Fascinated to begin with. You have to nail them before combat starts. And because Bards are relatively weak, except for this kind of stuff. And especially since there's no reason to word how a Suggestion attempt affects the Fascinate as they did, if it worked like you claim. |
| kinem04-13-05, 11:34 AM | Oh, and kinem; that's a ridiculous argument. That's like saying that, because disarm says you can do it as "a" melee attack, you can only Disarm once a round. Which is ridiculous, and completely contrary to the rules. That's a ridiculous and specious comparison. We all know that WotC's wording is often bad, so you have to use some common sense. In the case of disarm, the intent is obvious; it can be done with any melee attack. In the case of the bard, the intent is NOT obvious, so one should lean towards the "not overpowered" interpretation. |
| Nyferto04-13-05, 12:05 PM | Queston: Lets say you're in a group, and one gets facinated by a harmless looking Bard. Can they tell he's facinated? Now lets say the victim is then hit with suggestions Can the rest of the party tell he's making suggestions that are potentially harmful? Is making a suggestion considered an aggressive action? |
| Thorak04-13-05, 12:22 PM | That's a ridiculous and specious comparison. We all know that WotC's wording is often bad, so you have to use some common sense. In the case of disarm, the intent is obvious; it can be done with any melee attack. In the case of the bard, the intent is NOT obvious, so one should lean towards the "not overpowered" interpretation. So the argument is specious, because you have to use common sense to change the rules to how you think the game should be run? Excuse me while I say bullhonkey. Disarm says it can be done with a melee attack. Not any. That's my point. If you acknowledge that Disarm can be done with any melee attack, you have to acknowledge that you can do multiple Suggestions per Fascinate. Because your argument is entirely based on the fact that is says a Barb may make a Suggestion... That's the argument. On the use of "a". It's not specious, it shows you're being hypocritical and choosing whichever interpretation suits you at any given moment. The rest of us like to have rules, though. |
| kinem04-13-05, 03:17 PM | So every time it says "a" it means "more than once"? It has to mean that because in one case it means that? That's preposterous. You have merely repeated your specious argument, but this time you had to throw in more rudeness and substitute vulgarity. I do not excuse it, it is an attempt to obey the letter of the code of conduct while violating the spirit, and the boards don't need that so I reported your post. |
| meabolex04-13-05, 06:00 PM | Wow, the boards came back up! OK, now to comment on all this Evard's Black Foruming. Tarrasque charging a Major Image Even if the tarrasque hits the major image, a major image (that's being concentrated on) may be manipulated so that it rolls with the blow and does not instantly disappear. However, this counts as interaction and the tarrasque gets a disbelief save. ~ Fascinate with a suggestion each round I've never played it that way -- no one I know has ever played it that way. I believe it's because of the standardly poor wording: A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Yes, grammar nazis can easily (and unfairly) attack this. The "a" is intended to imply a single suggestion. I can easily see it being interpreted as an ability which you could attempt at any time while fascinated (over and over). However, what's to stop me from making a different suggestion every round? 5 different suggestions on a character? Does that sound reasonable? Why even bother with a silly will save? With the number of attempts you can make with suggestion while fascinated, it seems like WAY too much overkill. One suggestion per fascination is PLENTY. I think mass suggestion is fair at the level you attain it. ~ The Power of Suggestion This one has been debated forever. Think about fireball. It deals a lot of damage. It affects a large area. Even if you save against this spell, you still get hit by half the spell's damage. Fireball has a GIGANTIC range. It has some drawbacks (can possibly hit allies, deals only one type of energy damage), but in general they're not that bad. Think about suggestion. It deals no damage. It affects one target that can be affected by mind influencing effects, you MUST speak a language the target understands, and the target must be able to hear you. It does nothing if you fail the save. The spell uses a close range. That's a LOT of nasty drawbacks and restrictions for a spell. . . many more than fireball. So, if I'd have to gauge the power level of the effect of this spell, I would tend to lean toward MORE powerful as opposed to less powerful. What most players/DMs tend to do is nerf this spell into the ground. I would do the exact opposite. This is a combat-oriented spell -- it's a standard action, it doesn't require concentration, and it is a compulsion (see confusion/dominate person/hold person). All these things point to the fact that it's got to have a very useful in-combat effect. The interesting thing about fascinate + suggestion is that you have to be out of combat -- so that right there lowers the overall versatility of suggestion through fascinate. I typically would use fascinate to alter the mechanics of a combat. "You don't need to use your pathetic weapons against us. Fight us with your bare hands alone!" "A true dragon need not fly around his prey. Come fight us on the ground!" "A true warrior that is one with the universe does not need to rely on mere sight alone. You should try fighting with your eyes closed to achieve true inner harmony." "Oh my! Due to the unstable magic of this area, I highly recommend you not cast spells in this area!" Is the spell powerful? Yes. Is it heavily restricted in terms of game mechanics? Yes. Will it be as useful as fireball over time? Probably not. Will it be very powerful in the right situation? Yes. Could this spell be the bane of a dumb DM? Yep. ~ Fascinate + Suggestion -- if I know someone tried to use suggestion on me, do I get another save on fascinate/does fascinate break? To understand this topic a little better, please read Skip's Rules of the Game on spell-like abilities. In short, using the ability (suggestion) and the outcome of the ability (awareness of being suggested through spellcraft) are BOTH underneath the 'no second save' clause in the suggestion spell-like ability section regarding fascinate. Even if you are aware that the bard has attempted to use a suggestion on you while you are fascinated, you don't get a second roll to break the fascinate. This is clearly defined in the bard's suggestion spell-like ability section. Success or failure, you still don't get another roll. Compare to invisibility. If you succeed or fail at making a melee attack -- it doesn't matter -- any melee attack (successful or not) still breaks invisibility. So yes, you can be aware that a bard attempted to use the suggestion spell-like ability while fascinated and, regardless if you find that threatening or not, it doesn't break fascinate based on the rules as written. ~ Queston: Lets say you're in a group, and one gets facinated by a harmless looking Bard. Can they tell he's facinated? This is determined through the sense motive skill. Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. Now lets say the victim is then hit with suggestions Can the rest of the party tell he's making suggestions that are potentially harmful? The party would have to know that the bard is using a suggestion spell-like ability. This is filed under spellcraft. 15 + spell level - Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry. BUT A spell-like ability does not have verbal or somatic components. Thus, the party cannot be aware that the suggestion ability is actually being used. I'd allow a knowledge: local check of sufficient magnitude to learn that a bard can use fascinate/suggestion. Thus, if someone in the party makes the DC 25 sense motive check with that knowledge, they know that process is underway. They just can't follow the individual steps involved. Is making a suggestion considered an aggressive action? Answered above. If the party is aware of the effect on a party member (through sense motive), they can figure out something is wrong. However, the individual fascinated doesn't necessarily know he's being fascinated. Even if he does know, he can't specifically know exactly when the fascination starts or stops (no components). Playing a lute doesn't constitute a threat (: OK, argue all you want about this -- it's just my opinion (: Insert standard you are right, I am wrong disclaimer here. |
| Vaelan04-13-05, 08:06 PM | No, because until the saving throw is done, the ability hasn't been used. It's like with a Fireball. It doesn't deal damage until after you make your saving throw attempt. Show me the rule or logical reasoning that you use to come to this conclusion. As far as I'm concerned, your word alone is meaningless in this discussion of rules and, ultimately, meta-rules. Yes, it's clear that they'd know someone used magic against them. It does not say they can tell if the intent is hostile or not. They might, but it might just be a tingle. No matter how you mince words, you can't keep avoiding what the text says. Fact: Some magic is harmful. Fact: The victim of the ability knows that magic was used against it, but does not know what kind of magic or from whom it originated. Based on these two facts, the very idea that someone would not find magic being used against them a potential threat is utterly ridiculous. No, it has at least an equal probability, and IMHO a more likely one due to the wording of the effect of Suggestion on the existing Fascinate, that they just feel a harmless little tingle. The description of the suggestion ability says nothing about how the effect of the suggestion interacts with the existing fascinate, only of how using the suggestion ability interacts with the existing fascinate. What if you suggested to the victim that they do something that takes them out of earshot of your performance? Obviously they are no longer fascinated, yet according to what you just said (the effect of the suggestion falls under the list of things that does not allow another saving throw or break the fascinate effect), the person would still be fascinated even if they went to another plane entirely. Your responses to the points you actually bothered to comprehand and address reek of "begging the question", Thorak. I am quite disappointed, between this and completely failing to address the reasoning and rules upon which my arguement rests. Would you like me to post the points that you did not address more clearly? In short, using the ability (suggestion) and the outcome of the ability (awareness of being suggested through spellcraft) are BOTH underneath the 'no second save' clause in the suggestion spell-like ability section regarding fascinate. The issue isn't awareness of being the target of suggestion through spellcraft. The issue is awareness of someone using magic against you through the hostile force or tingle felt when you successfully save against a spell with no obvious physical effects (the suggestion). |
| CrippleMrOnion04-13-05, 10:40 PM | Vaelan: "The issue isn't awareness of being the target of suggestion through spellcraft. The issue is awareness of someone using magic against you through the hostile force or tingle felt when you successfully save against a spell with no obvious physical effects (the suggestion)." Unfortunately, you're overlooking the fact that the suggestion ability specifically says that the use of the ability does not allow for a second saving throw. So what's REALLY at issue is whether or not a successful save and the "tingle" or "hostile force" is a part of the "use." Meabolex says it is part of the use and uses his comparison with invisibility to prove his point. I tend to agree with that interpretation. The initialization of the spell like ability and the outcome of the spell like ability both fall under the "use" category, so no second save on the fascinate effect, even if you DO save and DO feel a tingle, because that's what the rules for the suggestion spell like ability say. If you believe that you do get a second save, then you must be of the opinion that the outcome of the spell like ability is NOT part of the use. I think meabolex's invisibility example proves this is not true: the use of the attack is what cancels the effect; the outcome of the attack is irrelevant. Similarly, the use of suggestion does not allow for a second save against fascinate; the outcome is irrelevant. Howver, even if you dismiss the invisibility example, you must then ask yourself this: when you use anything in D&D, does the outcome change the fact that you used it? The outcome is irrelevant. If your spell fails, you still lose your daily slot; the outcome is irrelevant. So if you believe that the outcome is different than the use (and thus for suggestion could allow another save), then you need evidence from other aspects of the game to back this belief up; otherwise, you're spitting into the wind... |
| Thorak04-14-05, 08:02 AM | Show me the rule or logical reasoning that you use to come to this conclusion. As far as I'm concerned, your word alone is meaningless in this discussion of rules and, ultimately, meta-rules. Logical reasoning; a saving throw is part of a spell or a spell-like ability and happens during the use of said ability. Otherwise, you're claiming that you make the saving throw after the Fireball's been by and dealt damage, rather than while it's happening, to avoid damage. Same with Suggestion; you make a saving throw the resist it's effects while it's being used on you. You're not trying to shake it off after it's been done. Rule; "Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect." My emphasis on "avoid". You can't avoid something that isn't being done right at that time. You can't avoid a sword swing 5 minutes before it's swung, only when it is being swung. And if that weren't enough; "Partial: The spell causes an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs." Unless you're ruling that the greater effect happens, and then is replaced by the lesser effect after the saving throw, which is ridiculous for reasons I don't think I need to go into, then the saving throw happens before or during the effect. And if the effect hasn't happened yet, the ability hasn't been used, since the ability produces the effect and hasn't finished being used if the effect has not been generated. Lastly, I think it's utterly ridiculous to say that using the ability doesn't break the Fascinate, but the effect of the ability does. That's like saying swinging a sword at someone isn't a hostile act unless it hits and deals damage. Fact: Some magic is harmful. Fact: The victim of the ability knows that magic was used against it, but does not know what kind of magic or from whom it originated. Based on these two facts, the very idea that someone would not find magic being used against them a potential threat is utterly ridiculous. They don't know what the magic would do. Magic can heal, and give insight, and all kinds of useful things. Do you find a cleric casting a healing spell against you to be a potential threat? You logic falls apart because only some magic is harmful. There's no reason why the use of any magic would cause this. Besides, what if the Bard cast Eagle's Splendor on them. There's a saving throw, even though it's harmless. Would you have the Fascinated creatures either save, or see the casting of a beneficial spell as a potential threat? The description of the suggestion ability says nothing about how the effect of the suggestion interacts with the existing fascinate, only of how using the suggestion ability interacts with the existing fascinate. What if you suggested to the victim that they do something that takes them out of earshot of your performance? Obviously they are no longer fascinated, yet according to what you just said (the effect of the suggestion falls under the list of things that does not allow another saving throw or break the fascinate effect), the person would still be fascinated even if they went to another plane entirely. Right, so swinging a sword at someone's head isn't a potential threat, only hitting them in the head with a sword. As for the second bit; they remain Fascinated after the Suggestion's been placed. They're still staring at you in awe. When the Fascinate ends, that's when they do the Suggested action. Nothing about Suggestion overrules the effect of Fascinate. Even if they did get out somehow, the Fascinate would end, but the Suggestion would still be in place. The Suggestion didn't break the Fascinate, being out of range did. I don't see how anything I said suggested anything to the contrary. Nor does the text. Your responses to the points you actually bothered to comprehand and address reek of "begging the question", Thorak. I am quite disappointed, between this and completely failing to address the reasoning and rules upon which my arguement rests. Would you like me to post the points that you did not address more clearly? I don't see how I'm "begging the question". I'm not using my assumption of how the rules work as a clause in my argument, it is the result of my argument. And yes, post any points I didn't address clearly enough for you. The issue isn't awareness of being the target of suggestion through spellcraft. The issue is awareness of someone using magic against you through the hostile force or tingle felt when you successfully save against a spell with no obvious physical effects (the suggestion). And the issue, very specifically, is that successfully saving against magic doesn't necessarily count as a "potential threat". Though I just realized, on re-reading, that I missed something. A potential threat doesn't break the Fascinate effect, it only allows another saving throw against it. In fact, it is the only thing that causes another saving throw against the effect; a clear visible danger like combat breaks it completely. So, since Suggestion explicitly doesn't provoke another saving throw, and this "potential threat" clause is the only thing that provokes another saving throw, how on earth can you logically claim that the Suggestion is provoking another saving throw? |
| Maraxus04-14-05, 10:30 AM | Right, so swinging a sword at someone's head isn't a potential threat, only hitting them in the head with a sword. *After writing a long answer* Oh, this was meant ironically!! :rolleyes: So, what is the problem, now. I see the process like that: 1. The bard beginns to sing/play music/whatever. 2. Anyone around can choose to see that as a threat and decide to attack. Within a town, where people are often performing such stuff, no sane person would do this. In a wilderniss or a dark dungeon however, the experienced adventurer should attack anybody he does not know on the first tone. 3. Saves are rolled. If anyone saves, he can knows, he was almost fascinated and can attack on this knowledge. 4. Anyone that was not target of the fascinate can roll sense motive to realice the fascination of those that failed thier saves (and can attack, too) 5. If nobody wants to attack (and therefor starts a fight), the bard can make a suggestion. 6. And another one. and another... but every turn, there are also sense motive checks for the unfascinated. About point 2, one could argue (and this is done here): Does the first tone cause the saving throw is the question? And: How is "combat" defined? The definition I see for the second is "Somebody wants to attack or do other harmful thinks as soon as it is his turn.", so you can start combat as a free, reactive action whenever somebody does something. The first is more difficult but I would say you need at least a complet word or (musical) bar to perform bardic music, so there is enough time for others to start a fight. To the point "potential threat": Any weapon drawn is a potential threat. Any spell cast is a potential thread (if spellcraft check fails). Many people (like guards) see somebody walking into meele range as a potential thread. Somebody with drawn weapons walking into meele range is an obvious threat. If people are extremly cautious, they may see even more harmless thinks as potential threats and some of this as obvious threat. However a fascinate-attempt is no threat, not even a potential. |
| RPGDudeNYC04-14-05, 12:13 PM | Regarding harmful vs. friendly use of magic: I understand why some are saying that the casting of a spell is not necessarily harmful...clearly, many spells are not harmful. However, if someone you do not know is casting a spell on you without explaining their intent beforehand, I would argue strongly that you would be suspicious. If your friend the cleric casts a spell on you during battle, you definitely trust him to be doing so to your benefit. If a stranger casts a spell on you without explanation, you have no reason to trust him and are very likely to suspect his magic is harmful. So, the question becomes, if you are fascinated by a bard do you automatically trust him enough to believe that magic he is casting on you is friendly? |
| Thorak04-14-05, 12:13 PM | 1. The bard beginns to sing/play music/whatever. 2. Anyone around can choose to see that as a threat and decide to attack. Within a town, where people are often performing such stuff, no sane person would do this. In a wilderniss or a dark dungeon however, the experienced adventurer should attack anybody he does not know on the first tone. I disagree; nothing about playing is a threat. Jumping someone because they strum their flute is like attacking anyone who speaks a language you don't understand, because they might be casting a spell with a verbal component. What, they're waving at you too? Somatic! Die! And all this because the rogue Kuo-toa wants to help the adventurers smite his evil friends, and is desperately trying to get them to follow him so he can show them something helpful. You can do it, of course, but it seems relatively evil or insane to me. 3. Saves are rolled. If anyone saves, he can knows, he was almost fascinated and can attack on this knowledge. I disagree again, the bit about successful saves says you don't know what happened except that magic was used on you. Depending on the situation, attacking is certainly a possibility, but I wouldn't say it's automatic, if there's no hostility with the guy playing, he might be trying to help you out. This is where Bluff and Diplomacy are great. 4. Anyone that was not target of the fascinate can roll sense motive to realice the fascination of those that failed thier saves (and can attack, too) I'd say a Spellcraft, though it's clear something's up when their friends are standing there awestruck. And of course, they can attack. 5. If nobody wants to attack (and therefor starts a fight), the bard can make a suggestion. 6. And another one. and another... but every turn, there are also sense motive checks for the unfascinated. About point 2, one could argue (and this is done here): Does the first tone cause the saving throw is the question? And: How is "combat" defined? The definition I see for the second is "Somebody wants to attack or do other harmful thinks as soon as it is his turn.", so you can start combat as a free, reactive action whenever somebody does something. The first is more difficult but I would say you need at least a complet word or (musical) bar to perform bardic music, so there is enough time for others to start a fight.[/quote] I see "combat" as "one or more creatures actively seeking to kill/defeat other creature(s)" If you don't have time to swing a sword or nock and shoot an arrow, you aren't starting combat. Since Bardic Music is a standard action, and the bard won initiative if you're reacting to it, your action comes after and thus won't happen if you fail the save against Fascinate. To the point "potential threat": Any weapon drawn is a potential threat. Any spell cast is a potential thread (if spellcraft check fails). Many people (like guards) see somebody walking into meele range as a potential thread. Somebody with drawn weapons walking into meele range is an obvious threat. If people are extremly cautious, they may see even more harmless thinks as potential threats and some of this as obvious threat. However a fascinate-attempt is no threat, not even a potential. All these things are explicitly potential threats in the PHB, no complaints. I'll take this time to reiterate something; Suggestion can't break the Fascinate effect. If it were a potential threat, if you saved against it or it were considered a spell, you would get a second saving throw against Fascinate. The ability specifically says you don't get that saving throw. There is no other saving throw you could possibly have to make against Fascinate, so that's the only one that the line could be talking about. The only possible reason for Suggestion to give a second saving throw for Fascinate is if it were a potential threat. It explicitly does not. Therefore, for the purpose of Fascinate, it is not a potential threat. |
| BlaineTog04-14-05, 10:57 PM | Fascinate with a suggestion each round I've never played it that way -- no one I know has ever played it that way.That's nice. Yes, grammar nazis can easily (and unfairly) attack this. The "a" is intended to imply a single suggestion.Ah, intent. If they meant "one," why didn't they just say "one?" I repeat an earlier question of mine: if you take "a" to mean "one," why isn't it "one ever"? Where does it say "one per fascinate"? It doesn't. If "a" = "one," then "a" = "one until this bard dies and you roll up a new one." 5 different suggestions on a character? Does that sound reasonable?Yes, Why even bother with a silly will save?Because there's still a chance (a rather decent chance, if the target has a decent will save) of ultimate success. And because blowing multiple rounds of fascinate on one creature fascinated makes the bard less able to give out suggestions to every creature fascinated. One suggestion per fascination is PLENTY.No, it's not, because of everything you have to go through to get it to work. |
| Thorak04-14-05, 11:53 PM | And I'll repeat it again, because I want to kill this thread dead. The only thing that gives you a second save against Fascinate is a potential threat. Bardic Suggestion explicitly says it does not give you a second save against the Fascinate effect. Being considered a "potential threat" is the only possible reason for that save to occur, and Suggestion explicitly does not provoke it. Even if it is a potential threat, by the logic you're using, it is an exception to that rule, because it says so right there. |
| Roxlimn04-14-05, 11:59 PM | Vaelan: Using the suggestion ability consists only of concentrating on using the spell-like ability. Since the Bard's suggestion ability works like the spell, the Bard must communicate the suggestion to the victim. This is not a "purely mental action" (the Rules of the Game definition of what using a spell-like ability is), and thus it is obvious that the period of time where the Bard is "using the ability" ends before the Bard voices the suggestion. Since the victim takes a penalty on their saving throw if the suggestion is especially reasonable, the saving throw must take place after the words are spoken, and thus after the Bard is finished "using the ability". You are separating the term "use" from the "effect" of the ability. Many already mentioned examples do not differentiate between the two. Which rule precedent are you using that establishes distinctness between the two? To specifically point out the problems with this reasoning: thus it is obvious that the period of time where the Bard is "using the ability" ends before the Bard voices the suggestion. Which rule specifies that voicing the suggestion is separate from "using the ability?" In fact, since the suggestion spell includes voicing the suggestion as an integral part of the spell's mechanics (mind-affecting, language dependent), the opposite seems to be true. |