Bard, sans cheese. (a variant) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard, sans cheese. (a variant) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
satyre
07-09-07, 01:33 PM Ok, so I love the bard class, but I always find myself smirking when using the bardic music abilities. Honestly, it really doesn't make sense for a bard to playing an instrument during battle. Which is why I tend to use Perform (Sing) mostly. I can somewhat justify singing during battle. Anyhow, I decided to make a couple changes to the class and I'm seeking advice. Does this look balanced to you?

Remove Bardic Music
+2 spell level when using performance as part of spellcasting.
Spells per Day as Sorcerer
Spells Known as Sorcerer
All other class features/abilities stay the same.
NoldorForce
07-09-07, 01:52 PM How is this a bard? How isn't it a sorcerer-and-then-some?

Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory.
satyre
07-09-07, 02:07 PM How is this a bard? How isn't it a sorcerer-and-then-some?

Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory.

Which is why I posted this. I know it's not balanced correctly. Reciting poetry or an epic story during battle is still quite cheesy. My point is that the number of ways you can rationalize bardic music are few. I'm trying to find a way to make it more practical and/or believable... well as far as casting magic spells is believable.
NoldorForce
07-09-07, 02:12 PM You haven't addressed the elephant in the room, however.

How is this a bard, rather than a sorcerer-and-then-some?

...

Bardic music as music may be hard to rationalize, but how's it much different from spellcasting? If you're fine with spouting nonsense words and waving your arms around to accomplish zany magical effects...what's wrong with doing much the same thing with coherent words and movements?

Also, heard of Vainamoinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vainamoinen)? That's the archetypal bard.
Arminel
07-09-07, 02:14 PM I know where you're coming from. The Bard is my favorite class, but being that I love spellcasters, I always wish it had more. If you want a full spellcasting Bard, you'll have a few things.

-Fewer spells per day than a Sorcerer
-More spells known than a Sorcerer
-Heavily modified spell list

The last one is key. A lot of the spells for 4th level spells are garnered in such a way that only a 10th level or higher character should use them. Also, use the Beguiler's spell list for some ideas. (I was astonished that Blinding Color Surge wasn't on a Bard's spell list, it seems to fit the flavor). More in the way of battlefield control, illusion, enchantment, buffs, and the like. Most classes start getting stuff like Bull's Strength, Mass around 11th level. Bards having it as a 5th level spell seems fair if they aren't going to be getting much in the way of direct damage or the like.

Also, Perform needs to be changed to the 3.0 version (Perform type per rank) or a modified version (Perform type per two ranks).
satyre
07-09-07, 02:59 PM You haven't addressed the elephant in the room, however.

How is this a bard, rather than a sorcerer-and-then-some?

...

Bardic music as music may be hard to rationalize, but how's it much different from spellcasting? If you're fine with spouting nonsense words and waving your arms around to accomplish zany magical effects...what's wrong with doing much the same thing with coherent words and movements?

Also, heard of Vainamoinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vainamoinen)? That's the archetypal bard.

You win. I really should just roleplay a Bard the way I like instead of trying to mess with class abilities. I just wanted to see more of a mesh between a Bard's "music" and spellcasting.

Vainamoinen was an interesting read. :D
OneWinged4ngel
07-09-07, 03:53 PM +2 caster level for purposes of DC when using performance as part of spellcasting. HUH? Caster level doesn't even affect DC. You don't even know what you're talking about o.o
DocBeard
07-09-07, 03:54 PM If you'd rather play a true spellcaster with an enchantment/illusion focus and more in the way of skills than a proper sorcerer, there's always the Beguiler from PHB 2.
satyre
07-09-07, 04:06 PM HUH? Caster level doesn't even affect DC. You don't even know what you're talking about o.o

Yeah, I meant spell level. I hope my lack of knowledge wasn't too offensive to your eyes. Sorry. :weep:

Now that I've made myself look like an idiot. Are there maybe some alternative Bardic Music abilities out there? That would probably be a better way to do what I'm aiming for.
Devil Gnasher
07-09-07, 09:21 PM So you think that bards playing music in the middle of battle is silly, imagine a bard or a group of bards playing one of these songs in a fight.

We Are the Champions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogKUx_q7ig&mode=related&search=)
We Will Rock You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iikKzQwgBJc&NR=1)
Princes of the Universe (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YPR6GbS9Hdc)
Crimson_Concerto
07-09-07, 09:29 PM One of my players is currently playing a Bard. His character is a militaristic commander and tactician, and his Barding "Music" is really more just him yelling out commands to improve morale, etc. Would this suit you better? We've found it works pretty well conceptually.
windscar18
07-09-07, 09:38 PM Well...

Eberron Campaign Setting has substitute out certain bardic music for certain feats, if that helps any.
Alac Luin
07-09-07, 09:49 PM Remove Bardic Music
+2 spell level when using performance as part of spellcasting.
Spells per Day as Sorcerer
Spells Known as Sorcerer
All other class features/abilities stay the same.
This makes a sorcerer with better HD, BAB, 3 times the amount of skill points, and various innate knowledge, plus the ability to wear armor.
Trade off- You don't get an animal (personally, I have never used a familiar anyway).

Sign me up for this class in your game :D

Music used as to invoke a combat bonus?
Ever been to a punk show? Get in the mosh pit and see if the music does get people worked up.
Rancid_platypus
07-09-07, 10:09 PM I dont know, in terms of actual battle the playing instrument is very, very , very no good. But i like the idea of it seems more real. And you could stop playing and have the effect last for 5 rounds. I always wanted a half-orc bard with big drums and beats people with the big drum sticks lol
Devil Gnasher
07-10-07, 01:26 AM Let them count playing their musical instruments as somatic and verbal components. Also allow cooperative bardic spells and music. Maybe even allow spellcasting at the same time as these bardic "jam sessions". Would that be to much?
Explosive_Zombie
07-10-07, 01:49 AM If you really desire to mix up bard with Sorcerer, the Unearthed Arcana has the "Prestigious Bard"... turns the Bard class into a 15 level PrC... much better spellcasting (none of the standard cure spells though). The SRD has it too, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard
cog_n_taz
07-10-07, 05:04 AM I dunno, I play a lizardfolk bard with war drums, it works pretty well. Ever played Warcraft 3? If so, you know what I'm talking about:D .
Jason Snyder
07-10-07, 08:15 AM Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory.

Yes, anything that is under the Perform skill. Oratory, chant... wait, what's this?

Dance... ballet? Sweet, I will inspire my partners to might feats of combat by dancing on my toes! Dance... waltz? By myself? Wouldn't that look kind of odd?

I can just imagine a party furiously fighting overwhelming numbers, but heartened because the bard behind them is dancing around.

But my favorite...Act (comedy, drama, mime)!! Ok, doing a one-man-show in the back of a party while they are doing combat is funny. But a mime bard would rock. Wouldn't that invalidate the part of the bard class description where it says the party has to hear the bard to receive it's benefits? Of course, every monster would target the bard first.

:D
cog_n_taz
07-10-07, 10:43 AM Ah yes, my aunt plays a bard with perform (comedy), the bardic "music" is hillarious..
NoldorForce
07-10-07, 02:18 PM @ Jason Snyder: I'd still included the caveat that it requires sound. So tap dancing is fine, but quiet stuff (especially mime) isn't.

As cog_n_tax pointed out, comedy is still fair game. Nothing hurts your enemies like being the targets of really horrid puns.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satyre 07-09-07, 01:33 PM	Ok, so I love the bard class, but I always find myself smirking when using the bardic music abilities. Honestly, it really doesn't make sense for a bard to playing an instrument during battle. Which is why I tend to use Perform (Sing) mostly. I can somewhat justify singing during battle. Anyhow, I decided to make a couple changes to the class and I'm seeking advice. Does this look balanced to you? Remove Bardic Music +2 spell level when using performance as part of spellcasting. Spells per Day as Sorcerer Spells Known as Sorcerer All other class features/abilities stay the same.
NoldorForce 07-09-07, 01:52 PM	How is this a bard? How isn't it a sorcerer-and-then-some? Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory.
satyre 07-09-07, 02:07 PM	How is this a bard? How isn't it a sorcerer-and-then-some? Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory. Which is why I posted this. I know it's not balanced correctly. Reciting poetry or an epic story during battle is still quite cheesy. My point is that the number of ways you can rationalize bardic music are few. I'm trying to find a way to make it more practical and/or believable... well as far as casting magic spells is believable.
NoldorForce 07-09-07, 02:12 PM	You haven't addressed the elephant in the room, however. How is this a bard, rather than a sorcerer-and-then-some? ... Bardic music as music may be hard to rationalize, but how's it much different from spellcasting? If you're fine with spouting nonsense words and waving your arms around to accomplish zany magical effects...what's wrong with doing much the same thing with coherent words and movements? Also, heard of Vainamoinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vainamoinen)? That's the archetypal bard.
Arminel 07-09-07, 02:14 PM	I know where you're coming from. The Bard is my favorite class, but being that I love spellcasters, I always wish it had more. If you want a full spellcasting Bard, you'll have a few things. -Fewer spells per day than a Sorcerer -More spells known than a Sorcerer -Heavily modified spell list The last one is key. A lot of the spells for 4th level spells are garnered in such a way that only a 10th level or higher character should use them. Also, use the Beguiler's spell list for some ideas. (I was astonished that Blinding Color Surge wasn't on a Bard's spell list, it seems to fit the flavor). More in the way of battlefield control, illusion, enchantment, buffs, and the like. Most classes start getting stuff like Bull's Strength, Mass around 11th level. Bards having it as a 5th level spell seems fair if they aren't going to be getting much in the way of direct damage or the like. Also, Perform needs to be changed to the 3.0 version (Perform type per rank) or a modified version (Perform type per two ranks).
satyre 07-09-07, 02:59 PM	You haven't addressed the elephant in the room, however. How is this a bard, rather than a sorcerer-and-then-some? ... Bardic music as music may be hard to rationalize, but how's it much different from spellcasting? If you're fine with spouting nonsense words and waving your arms around to accomplish zany magical effects...what's wrong with doing much the same thing with coherent words and movements? Also, heard of Vainamoinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vainamoinen)? That's the archetypal bard. You win. I really should just roleplay a Bard the way I like instead of trying to mess with class abilities. I just wanted to see more of a mesh between a Bard's "music" and spellcasting. Vainamoinen was an interesting read. :D
OneWinged4ngel 07-09-07, 03:53 PM	+2 caster level for purposes of DC when using performance as part of spellcasting. HUH? Caster level doesn't even affect DC. You don't even know what you're talking about o.o
DocBeard 07-09-07, 03:54 PM	If you'd rather play a true spellcaster with an enchantment/illusion focus and more in the way of skills than a proper sorcerer, there's always the Beguiler from PHB 2.
satyre 07-09-07, 04:06 PM	HUH? Caster level doesn't even affect DC. You don't even know what you're talking about o.o Yeah, I meant spell level. I hope my lack of knowledge wasn't too offensive to your eyes. Sorry. :weep: Now that I've made myself look like an idiot. Are there maybe some alternative Bardic Music abilities out there? That would probably be a better way to do what I'm aiming for.
Devil Gnasher 07-09-07, 09:21 PM	So you think that bards playing music in the middle of battle is silly, imagine a bard or a group of bards playing one of these songs in a fight. We Are the Champions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogKUx_q7ig&mode=related&search=) We Will Rock You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iikKzQwgBJc&NR=1) Princes of the Universe (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YPR6GbS9Hdc)
Crimson_Concerto 07-09-07, 09:29 PM	One of my players is currently playing a Bard. His character is a militaristic commander and tactician, and his Barding "Music" is really more just him yelling out commands to improve morale, etc. Would this suit you better? We've found it works pretty well conceptually.
windscar18 07-09-07, 09:38 PM	Well... Eberron Campaign Setting has substitute out certain bardic music for certain feats, if that helps any.
Alac Luin 07-09-07, 09:49 PM	Remove Bardic Music +2 spell level when using performance as part of spellcasting. Spells per Day as Sorcerer Spells Known as Sorcerer All other class features/abilities stay the same. This makes a sorcerer with better HD, BAB, 3 times the amount of skill points, and various innate knowledge, plus the ability to wear armor. Trade off- You don't get an animal (personally, I have never used a familiar anyway). Sign me up for this class in your game :D Music used as to invoke a combat bonus? Ever been to a punk show? Get in the mosh pit and see if the music does get people worked up.
Rancid_platypus 07-09-07, 10:09 PM	I dont know, in terms of actual battle the playing instrument is very, very , very no good. But i like the idea of it seems more real. And you could stop playing and have the effect last for 5 rounds. I always wanted a half-orc bard with big drums and beats people with the big drum sticks lol
Devil Gnasher 07-10-07, 01:26 AM	Let them count playing their musical instruments as somatic and verbal components. Also allow cooperative bardic spells and music. Maybe even allow spellcasting at the same time as these bardic "jam sessions". Would that be to much?
Explosive_Zombie 07-10-07, 01:49 AM	If you really desire to mix up bard with Sorcerer, the Unearthed Arcana has the "Prestigious Bard"... turns the Bard class into a 15 level PrC... much better spellcasting (none of the standard cure spells though). The SRD has it too, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard
cog_n_taz 07-10-07, 05:04 AM	I dunno, I play a lizardfolk bard with war drums, it works pretty well. Ever played Warcraft 3? If so, you know what I'm talking about:D .
Jason Snyder 07-10-07, 08:15 AM	Keep in mind that no actual music is required for bardic music; you can use anything that requires Perform and sound to activate it, such as oratory. Yes, anything that is under the Perform skill. Oratory, chant... wait, what's this? Dance... ballet? Sweet, I will inspire my partners to might feats of combat by dancing on my toes! Dance... waltz? By myself? Wouldn't that look kind of odd? I can just imagine a party furiously fighting overwhelming numbers, but heartened because the bard behind them is dancing around. But my favorite...Act (comedy, drama, mime)!! Ok, doing a one-man-show in the back of a party while they are doing combat is funny. But a mime bard would rock. Wouldn't that invalidate the part of the bard class description where it says the party has to hear the bard to receive it's benefits? Of course, every monster would target the bard first. :D
cog_n_taz 07-10-07, 10:43 AM	Ah yes, my aunt plays a bard with perform (comedy), the bardic "music" is hillarious..
NoldorForce 07-10-07, 02:18 PM	@ Jason Snyder: I'd still included the caveat that it requires sound. So tap dancing is fine, but quiet stuff (especially mime) isn't. As cog_n_tax pointed out, comedy is still fair game. Nothing hurts your enemies like being the targets of really horrid puns.