Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Damori 01-10-07, 09:19 PM	Hello, all. I am playing a bard in what will become a pirate campaign and I had some questions. I am the only spell-casting member of the group (save a rogue that took a level in cleric) but I am attracted toward the War Chanter. Is its inability to cast spells balanced by its abilities involving inspirations and combining them and whatnot? If not, what would a Bard/Sorceror be like? Would the bard rule of light leather not presenting an arcane spell chance still apply, or would I need masterwork leather to make sure I wouldn't fail. Eventually if they were split or if I favored the bard more, would this be viable or terribly useful in-game? Appreciate any comments.
Silverthumb128 01-10-07, 09:28 PM	IMO, a multiclass spellcaster just isn't a good idea. Multiclassing a spellcaster with another spellcaster won't be very good at all, because you're getting a little from column A, and a little from column B, but that little bit won't give you much in the long run. If anything, multiclass into Sorceror just long enough to get a spell like True Strike. Your already high Charisma will help you be able to cast it a few times each day. That's the most I can advise about that multiclass. I haven't taken an extensive look at the War Chanter, but if you're the only spellcaster, you may do well to stick with as many levels of Bard as you can get, just to get more and better spells. Otherwise, I know that War Chanter's big ability is going to be buffs, which I'll always favor in a party. A good buffer will make everyone's job easier. If you like War Chanter enough, by all means, go for that, and dump some ranks into Use Magic Device while you can, too.
Damori 01-10-07, 09:38 PM	Thanks for the insight. I'm also curious about being able to fight decently well, but I suppose I should focus on one thing at a time. My focus on the rapier at least helps in that, and perhaps I should think about the Dodge feats to be hit less instead of hitting more. I don't have the books on me to look at, is there a list of feats with the requirements and details?
Mitchell 01-10-07, 09:46 PM	There is always the SRD you can look at. (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) And no, sorcerer spells would be tracked seperately from bard spells and would be subject to ASF if you were wearing armor. I have never played a war chanter, so I can't be sure about it's balance, but at least WotC thought so. How much that is worth is open to debate, though. :cool:
Khan the Destroyer 01-10-07, 09:46 PM	At what leve will you start and how far do you expect to go? There are a couple of options, depending on what books you have available, for a bard caster. At higher levels (earliest level 10), a Sublime Chord (prestige class in Complete Arcane) will grant you up to 9th level spells like a sorcerer. Go in 1 level, and then advance in Eldritch Theurge or another bard/caster prestige class. Also, you might try starting out as a Sorcerer and going into the Virtuoso prestige class (Complete Adventurer?). That class advances spellcasting while granting you bardic music-like abilities. And if you have access to Unearthed Arcana, you could try the Prestige Bard, which is a 15 level prestige class that gives you everything the bard gets but also advances spellcasting. If your campaign will focus a lot on combat though, you might want to stick with warchanter. It does wonders for your allies. Low level warriors bolstered by your song will do very well against the normal pirates you'll be encountering.
Eyeless Blond 01-10-07, 11:30 PM	The thing about warchanter is he has the same strengths as the bard and the same limitations, both taken to extremes. Warchanters are very good at insipring large groups; if your gaming group consistently has more than 6-8 PCs and NPCs in it at any one time, especially if one or two of them use summons or cohorts, go for it, as your mass buffs are incredibly potent and powerful. Otherwise... not so much. Really bard20 isn't a bad option by itself. It may be good to just stick with bard the whole way through, especially as you are the best spellcaster in your group. Sublime Chord is a good idea if you really want to concentrate on casting, but it's not really necessary and will further erode your combat effectiveness and cut into your skill points to boot.
CaoSlayer 01-11-07, 04:12 AM	The warchanter works better when you give up spellcasting and charisma... I mean that since you arent going to have a strong spellcasting, you should leave it completely. Try to have a low charisma, something like a 12 and get bard 2 /whatever fighting class 3, get one long duration spell or out-of-combat one and then play as a fighter who knows songs for bosting. A pirate warchanter it is wonderful because allows to have al your crew with your bab so your level 1 npc crew will fight like level 10 fighters. Ah, remember that you can use heavy armor while singing, since songs have not ASF
Damori 01-11-07, 10:57 AM	I'm level 3 at the moment with Weapon Focus: Rapier, whichever feat from CAd that allows me to use one perform skill for any check, and combat something-rather (to get the requirements for Chanter out of the way). I'm not sure if fighter or swashbuckler would be better for me, but the thought of chanting in medium armor and being able to do damage is appealing. I'm new to D&D, this is my first campaign. Help me out, and thanks again.
CaoSlayer 01-11-07, 11:49 AM	It is true that multiclassing (and going into a prestige class) a bard is most cases troublesome mainly because since the bard have such a broad amount of features, they always ends losing something. Swashbucklet it is a good option indeed,three levels allows you to add inteligence to damage so you can forget about str if you take weapon finesse. mind you that the main reason of why leaving spellcasting it is because you become less atribute dependent, so in place of geting expensible cloaks of charisma you can get cloaks of con, dex or str allowing you to but greater butts for great justice. Bard 3/Swash 3/ warchanter 4 seems a good level 10 build, you will end with 9 bab and you will have 3d6 + 3d10 + 3d8 hp plus good skills, superb reflex saves and 7 bardic music uses. Combat expertise it is a great feat besides to screw any oponent using power attack or two weapon fighting because allows you to pick some good feats, mostly improved disarm and improved trip. Dont overlook the whip, dont deal damage but it is able to disarm and trip at a great distance, if you get improved disarm and wield the whip with both hands you will get a +8 bonus to the check. And soon is coming the book complete scoundrel that have "skill tricks" being one of them allowing you to use a whip for jumping ala indiana jones.
Damori 01-11-07, 03:09 PM	Before I read this post, during the day, I had been thinking about 3 Bard / 3 Fighter and then War Chanter. For the three levels I could be as a fighter, I get two bonus feats (could do Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack in three levels) as well as learning martial weapons, hit die, and armor (not sure of exact Chanter stats, Medium Armor might not be that bad). If I decided to take a fourth level in Fighter, I could take weapon specialization for my rapier and yet another bonus feat. Those d10 are nice as well. I'm not sure, but I could probably use a greatsword or longsword instead of the rapier for more damage output (with a plan, I bet my DM would let me switch if I talked to him). Looking at my character sheet I'd have a +9 Fort Save, +6 Ref save and a +4 Will save without additional stats involved. If I went for that fourth level, Fort would increase by 4 and the other two by 1. My character could stay fairly mobile, considering the choices those bonus feats give me. I'm not sure about the attack bonuses, I can't remember if it needs to be +6 for War Chanter. That source stuff is really useful, but doesn't include some of those other books. I'll just give you some more info on my character, again I am open. 11 Str, 15 Dex, 11 Con, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha.
CaoSlayer 01-11-07, 03:35 PM	Go swashbucket and rapier, you have too low str for a greatsword, a bard 3/ swash 3 with finesse will be able to use dextery for hiting and inteligence for damage. adding inteligence to damage will give you a +2 to damage, the same benefit than weapon specialization, if you improve the inteligence by one, will be a +3.
Damori 01-11-07, 03:50 PM	That makes a good amount of sense. Are there any websites with detailed info about Swashbucklers and War Chanters? We only meet once a week and it's the DM with most of the books.
MarrowMage 01-11-07, 10:54 PM	i'm sure this doesn't fit into your character concept, but seeker of the song has some nice spell-like effects with their songs, so if you get to really high levels, you can look at that after warchanter
Eyeless Blond 01-12-07, 01:00 AM	Don't take the third level of Fighter unless you plan on taking the fourth, and you probably don't want to bother with the fourth. Go bard4/fighter2 instead; you don't lose any feats, nor BAB, but you gain access to 2nd level spells. That said, bard3/swashbuckler3/warchanterX is a solid combo. Can we get some more details? What's your current build, including skill point allocation and race? Thing is, with stats like those, well, you're a lover, not a fighter. :D I'd honestly stay away from martial ability and go for casting; you certainly have the Cha for it, and your group is obviously hurting for one. One build I particularly like for a caster bard is: bard6/mindbender1/Anything*3/Sublime Chord10 Mindbender is a prestige class found in Complete Arcane, as is Sublime Chord. Mindbender's first level is great because it gives you Telepathy, which means, among other things, no more need to speak aloud to perform Bardic Music. Sublime Chord turns bards into sorcerers, essentially, handing them huge spellcasting power and the ability to pump their caster level up with a Perform check. "Anything*" can literally be any class or PrC you want. It doesn't even need to progress spellcasting, as Sublime Chord has an alternate casting progression, though it is easier to meet prerequisites if it has a decent number of skill points. One neat idea I've seen is Arcane Archer for two levels to pick up Imbue Arrow. You could also go with another three levels of Bard to pick up Inspire Greatness, always a useful spell. If you're set on staying out of casting, though, I'd have to suggest: bard7/warchanter3/Seeker of the Song10 bard7 gets you Inspire Courage +2, very useful itself, and a couple of 3rd level spells, also very potent and useful for a bard (I suggest and ). Warchanter3 nets you the dangerous Inspire Recklessness, a major boon to your mostly-fighting party and a very appropriate song for a swashbuckling adventure. Seeker is a perfect class for your stats: with damaging effects based on a Perform check you're sure to have lots of fun with it. This is the only class I'd ever think about getting the Extra Music feat with; there's just so many good effects you'll never want to be without them! :) Anyway, give us the full stat sheet, and let's see what we can work with. Do NOT take a level of Fighter or Swashbuckler before getting out input; choosing to multiclass at an early stage might seem to be a great idea at the moment, but it gets really hairy later on if you haven't planned ahead for the next 5 to 10 levels, and we can help with that.
Damori 01-12-07, 06:29 AM	3rd Level Human Bard Miguel! (Hispanic, Swashbucklin' Good Looks) Str 11 - Dex 15 - Con 11 - Int 15 - Wis 12 - Cha 18 Fort 1 - Ref 5 - Will 3 16 HP - 15 AC - BAB +2 Uses Rapier, Shortbow, Shortsword. Studded Leather Spells: 0: Message, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Mending, Read Magic, Detect Magic 1: Cure Light Wound, Charm Person, Identify For ranks I'll just show my skill modifier. Bluff: 9 Diplomacy: 9 Gather Information: 9 Jump: 5 Knowledge (Geo/Hist/Local): 5 Listen: 2 Perform (Any): 13 Profession (Sailor, Free points from Campaign): 4 Search: 4 Spot: 2 Tumble: 9 Feats Combat Expertise Weapon Focus (Rapier) Versatile Performer
Yorath_theWolf 01-12-07, 11:37 AM	Combat expertise it is a great feat besides to screw any oponent using power attack or two weapon fighting because allows you to pick some good feats, mostly improved disarm and improved trip. Dont overlook the whip, dont deal damage but it is able to disarm and trip at a great distance, if you get improved disarm and wield the whip with both hands you will get a +8 bonus to the check. And soon is coming the book complete scoundrel that have "skill tricks" being one of them allowing you to use a whip for jumping ala indiana jones. actually as EWP: Whip, or just WP: Whip in this case also gives you profecincy with the whip-dagger as well and you get all the advantages of a whip _PLUS_ damage, it's a good route to go. might have to do something so you can use a spiked gauntlet as well so you can deal with things that threaten close to you though. bard6/mindbender1/Anything*3/Sublime Chord10 Mindbender is a prestige class found in Complete Arcane, as is Sublime Chord. Mindbender's first level is great because it gives you Telepathy, which means, among other things, no more need to speak aloud to perform Bardic Music. Sublime Chord turns bards into sorcerers, essentially, handing them huge spellcasting power and the ability to pump their caster level up with a Perform check. actually a better setup here might be: Bard6/Mindbender1/Virtuoso2/Sublime Cord2(think ya need 2 lvls to get Arcane Spellsong or which ever bardic music allows you to boost caster lvl)/Virtuos8(this continues Sublime Cord's casting progression unhindered as well as gives you some pretty nifty bardic music abilities.)
Damori 01-12-07, 01:29 PM	I'm pretty sure my DM that I meet once a week has Complete Arcane, but where do the Virtuoso and Sublime Chord come in? Still have no way to look for all the information myself without any material where I am, but I really appreciate this. How would that build work compared to a Warchanter?
Yorath_theWolf 01-12-07, 02:50 PM	swore that Sublime Chord was in Complete Arcane, Virtuoso though is in Complete Adventurer.
Damori 01-12-07, 03:43 PM	I'll have to remember all of this when I get there, hopefully sunday. This is off topic, but does this deserve a white chip? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Damori/Miguel.jpg
Damori 01-13-07, 11:14 PM	Other than telepathy, what does the Mindbender yield? There is an Arcane feat to silently perform that might do the same thing with less. If I went Bard 7/ Virtuoso 3 / Sublime Chord 10 how might that work out? I glimpsed at the three PrCs but don't remember a ton, Virtuoso looks like a lot of fun. I do not know much about Seeker of the Song. Care to explain? Also! I noticed that I could always get a familiar later on, something that I think would be really cool, for use and flavor-wise. Would it be worth getting the familiar feat, improved familiar, and whatever else I can do to make it a beast? I think it could be useful to have a familiar to help me out and converse with, if it was a water creature (I speak Aquan, yo!)
CaoSlayer 01-14-07, 04:05 AM	getting a familiar it is good because just by having it you get a benefit equal to a feat and also alertness so it gives you two feats for one. I would recomend you 100% a parrot familiar (use the raven stats) not only because you are a pirate but because since a parrot (raven) knows a language and a familiar shares your skill ranks, you will have a familiar able to bluff/sing and the most important able to use UMD, that means your parrot can fly around with a wand of fireballs causing real havok. The only trouble is that bards are feat hungry, there is so many powerful feats and they are limited to 7/8
Eyeless Blond 01-14-07, 07:43 AM	Other than telepathy, what does the Mindbender yield? There is an Arcane feat to silently perform that might do the same thing with less. If I went Bard 7/ Virtuoso 3 / Sublime Chord 10 how might that work out? I glimpsed at the three PrCs but don't remember a ton, Virtuoso looks like a lot of fun. Telepathy itself is just a great ability to have in general, as it lets you communicate nonverbally with anyone and anything with a language. Great skill for a diplomat. The Perform thing is just icing. Virtuoso is a lot of fun, so much so I'd even suggest bard6/mindbender1/virtuoso3/SC2/virtuoso4-10 as a solid build. Or, possibly even better: bard4/Human Paragon3/mindbender1/virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso3-10 Human Paragon is a racial paragon class found in Unearthed Arcana, and is a great paragon class with no prereqs. In this case it is particularly notable for its ability to take one skill and make it a class skill for all your future classes. I suggest Use Magic Device here, as that is not a class skill for Virtuosos. I do not know much about Seeker of the Song. Care to explain?Seeker is a quirky PrC, available at level 20. Its biggest claim to fame is being able to do damage using bardic music, and does very well at shutting down enemy casters. All in all a good class, though you entirely give up on casting for it. Also! I noticed that I could always get a familiar later on, something that I think would be really cool, for use and flavor-wise. Would it be worth getting the familiar feat, improved familiar, and whatever else I can do to make it a beast? I think it could be useful to have a familiar to help me out and converse with, if it was a water creature (I speak Aquan, yo!)The regular familiar is a bit of a joke, with the noted exception of the parrot noted above. Improved Familiars are great (in your case a water or air elemental would be incredibly useful), except you're losing two feats to get it.
Damori 01-14-07, 09:11 AM	If I had a Water Mephit, could I still give him a wand or whatever? I'm not sure of what other Improved Familiars there are that could be very useful. If I took the Paragon class, I would miss out on Suggestion and whatever else. On the other hand, I'd be able to get +2 to one attribute as well as my normal attribute progression (and d8 HP). I suppose Mindbender looks useful. I could communicate with them regardless of language or speech restrictions, then?
CaoSlayer 01-14-07, 09:17 AM	If a creature can say the command word and hold the item, he can activate it. Being a creature 100% water I have my doubts if is able to hold something.
Damori 01-14-07, 09:38 AM	Hmm. Couldn't use a tiny dragon...don't want a monkey... It would help if I knew exactly what I could use as an improved familiar if I go down that path. Do you think that Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Virtuoso ?/Sublime Chord ? would be effective for me or would allow me to rock out?
Argon_Asimov 01-14-07, 10:26 AM	+1 for your character Sketch, I lol'd Anyways, Damori, if you keep posting on these boards, we will eventually have you playing pun-pun, and I don't think anyone really wants that. It can be fun to stack up unique abilities, but in all seriousness a simple bard/swashbuckler build is going to be very effective and fun to play, and that's what the game is all about. Furthermore, when I'm building a character, the story comes first, because for me, the story is more important than rolling dice and killing orcs (I could do that sitting alone at home). You very well may have already done so, but you should take some time to think about who your character really is, his personallity, and why he has all the abilities that he has on paper. I recommend that before you go on, you take a look at this link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5209090, which has a long list of good questions you should ask yourself about your character. Ideally, you should be able to answer each of them. Welcome to the boards and good luck with your first game :D