Bard Troubles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Troubles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonPhoenix
04-14-04, 12:04 AM Does anyone else see the problem with Fascinate? Our party's bard has a +30 perform (at level 13) from high Cha and a skill focus feat or two and can force a DC 40+ Will against Fascinate after which he uses Suggestion to do whatever he wants. I, on the other hand, am playing the nearly useless gold dragon who's only purpose in the party is be somewhat rich (I payed the entire cost of our fortress/base of operations for the BARD'S ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE MINIONS!!!...which is also a problem).

**Edit: BTW, don't forget he can just use Modify Memory and repeat it all over again...**

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks there is a problem with bard non-combat abilities. I mean, really, with checks like that he might as well take over the world by fascinating world leaders and suggesting them to give up territority to him peace by peace in return for some small random task.

I just thought I'd say, I'm not the only other person in the party who is having problems. Our Druid has also been ripped from having any fun in the game by the bard's monopoly outside of combat. In any case, the bard also fights better than me (wow...I get 5 attacks which are mostly negligable while the bard basically gets 125 attacks, and his level 11 cohort is better than me by far!).
BlaineTog
04-14-04, 12:34 AM Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix
Does anyone else see the problem with Fascinate?Nope. It's fun.

Our party's bard has a +30 perform (at level 13) from high Cha and a skill focus feat or two and can force a DC 40+ Will against Fascinate after which he uses Suggestion to do whatever he wants. I, on the other hand, am playing the nearly useless gold dragon who's only purpose in the party is be somewhat rich (I payed the entire cost of our fortress/base of operations for the BARD'S ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE MINIONS!!!...which is also a problem).This sounds like your *real* problem is with Leadership. which is an NPC feat anyway.

**Edit: BTW, don't forget he can just use Modify Memory and repeat it all over again...**Not Fascinate. If they maek the save, they are exempt for 24 hours.

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks there is a problem with bard non-combat abilities.:uh-huh: Out of Combat abilities are kinda the whole *point* of the bard. It's their shtick. You might as well begrudge a cleric for being so good at healing.

I mean, really, with checks like that he might as well take over the world by fascinating world leaders and suggesting them to give up territority to him peace by peace in return for some small random task.He's not just taking them? Sheesh. Weirdo. :looloo:

I just thought I'd say, I'm not the only other person in the party who is having problems. Our Druid has also been ripped from having any fun in the game by the bard's monopoly outside of combat.Well, if it's impacting with other people's fun, then we have aproblem. [/not sarcastic] Bards are gret, but the require a mature, experienced role player to play one well. Your bard sounds like none of these things.

In any case, the bard also fights better than me (wow...I get 5 attacks which are mostly negligable while the bard basically gets 125 attacks, and his level 11 cohort is better than me by far!). Again, it's leadership thats the problem here. The fact that he has through-the-roof Charisma merely increases the problem.

Followers should *not* be allowed to fight in battle. They should be the castle staff or something, noncombattants. Resolving their attacks is just too hard.
Rslay
04-14-04, 02:32 AM Also, isn't the will save vs. a suggestion a heck of a lot lower than the will save for fascinate?
BlaineTog
04-14-04, 02:43 AM Yes, but since the enemy remains fascinated for a long time and the Bard can make a suggestion without disrupting the fasnicate effect, he can keep forcing a save until the facinate-ee fails the save.
CrimsonPhoenix
04-14-04, 11:06 PM Our bard's player is great actually. He isn't really much of a powergamer at all, and he prefers to use intricate (and successful) strategies in most situations. The massive power of fascinate seems unlike him, so I was just wondering if I was missing something...

Thx for replies anyway
BlaineTog
04-14-04, 11:10 PM No, Fascinate *is* really powerful, but it's one of their few offensive abilities (other than their spells, which are mostly Enchantments and Illusions anyway).
Ving "Fish" Flotsam
04-15-04, 01:58 AM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Yes, but since the enemy remains fascinated for a long time and the Bard can make a suggestion without disrupting the fasnicate effect, he can keep forcing a save until the facinate-ee fails the save.

.....Seriously? Are you sure? That's really awesome if so, and makes me respect my Bard's upcoming level alot more.
BlaineTog
04-15-04, 02:06 AM Yeah. You can keep them fascinated for up to a number of rounds equal to your bard level and you can make a suggestion for free each round. At 20th level, they are mathmatically assued to roll at least *1* natural one (although chances are that they'll still fail on better than a 1).
Ving "Fish" Flotsam
04-15-04, 02:24 AM Well, heck. That's just fantastic.
Talmariel
04-15-04, 02:35 PM I was with you up until the attacks part. What level are we talking about? Could you be more specific about the attacks part?

As for fascinate, don't forget that it doesn't work in combat. Beyond that, it grants nothing but that the bard has his or her audience's attention, imposing a penalty on Spot and Listen. The suggestion ability isn't a free action, it just doesn't disrupt fascinate or count against the bard's daily limit for bardic music. As a spell-like ability, it requires a standard action.

Likewise, suggestion effectively makes the target's attitude Helpful. They aren't going to do anything obviously harmful to themselves. The suggestion has to be worded to sound reasonable. While inventive players (as you've said your bard is) can make a hell of a lot of things sound reasonable, there are limits, which are ultimately up to the DM. Don't forget the duration, either. The target of suggestion remembers what transpired. For most, they'll confusedly wonder why the did that, but likely think they had good reason to help the bard. For someone giving over valuables, I doubt they'll look kindly on that, and probably realize they've been magically duped.

Your final problem seems to be with minions and the Leadership feat. What cohort does your bard have, exactly?
CrimsonPhoenix
04-15-04, 07:04 PM An 11th level half-orc fighter, weilding two +2 bastard swords (maybe keen now...I forgot). Oh, and he also rides a Rhino Warbeast or something of the sort....

He can do around 80-100 damage per round, about the same as me at 2 levels higher, and has almost every ability I do. His weapons can be drawn quickly due to Gloves of Storing (I think they are called that..?) and he has Boots of Levitation, Mail of Time or something crazy like that and a clear spindle ioun stone.

We all have an above normal amount of gold, and the bard himself has two Heward's Handy Haversacks full of random minor wondrous items with amazingly overpowered abilities (when used properly). A Decanter of Endless Water has become a propulsion device, a Bag of Tricks (or should I say...a bag of Bags of Tricks) has become a portable-army-maker, and a Folding Boat + Lyre of Building has become an invincible fortress on several occasions.

But before I go rambling on and on...back to Fascinate. Is there anything our DM is missing? It allows a save = to perform result, imposes a - on spot and listen the target listens to the rest of the song, and it can't be used against hostile targets (but still good against unfriendly, like many encounters can start off). Is there anything I'm missing or is it just that good and our DM needs to make all his NPCs, etc have massive Will save bonuses to make a save in the 31-50 range?
BlaineTog
04-15-04, 08:11 PM Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix
An 11th level half-orc fighter, weilding two +2 bastard swords (maybe keen now...I forgot). Oh, and he also rides a Rhino Warbeast or something of the sort....The problem is (again) Leadership. PCs shouldn't be allowed to have it except in very special situations.

We all have an above normal amount of gold, and the bard himself has two Heward's Handy Haversacks full of random minor wondrous items with amazingly overpowered abilities (when used properly). A Decanter of Endless Water has become a propulsion device, a Bag of Tricks (or should I say...a bag of Bags of Tricks) has become a portable-army-maker, and a Folding Boat + Lyre of Building has become an invincible fortress on several occasions.Petty magic items, when used correctly, are *awesome.* My bard filled his Haversack with them too.

To be honest, most of these items sounds liek they woudl *help the party more than hurt it. But if it's making everyone else's game less fun, I suggest you talk to him about this.

But before I go rambling on and on...back to Fascinate. Is there anything our DM is missing? It allows a save = to perform result, imposes a - on spot and listen the target listens to the rest of the song, and it can't be used against hostile targets (but still good against unfriendly, like many encounters can start off). Is there anything I'm missing or is it just that good and our DM needs to make all his NPCs, etc have massive Will save bonuses to make a save in the 31-50 range? Yes: Mindblank. It makes them totally immune.
Talmariel
04-15-04, 08:31 PM That's all fascinate does, all right. I'm not exactly following how it's being abused in your game. It sounds good, but relatively harmless to me. I've got to say, you've piqued my interest about this game, but I'll leave it alone, and stick to the fascinate questions.
Sheer_FALACY
04-15-04, 10:59 PM How is the cohort possibly outfighting a PC? It is, at a minimum, 2 levels lower, and it has like 1/4 the gp.

And using followers to say that he gets 125 attacks is hilarious. Really, it is.

"Well, I have 100 attacks at +2..."

"Um, ok. Lets just take the average. You hit 5 times."

"Yay, that is... um... 10 damage!"

"Ok, that was fun. Now the wizard casts widened fireball. What was the leadership modifier for having an entirely exterminated army?"

And if you think fascinate is abusive, wait till you see diplomacy. For 10,000 gp, some ranks, and the charisma that he probably wants anyway, a bard can have a diplomacy check in the 30s. What was the DC to make someone hostile friendly as a full round action?

I also like your statement of "a skill focus feat or two." Once is the maximum.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonPhoenix 04-14-04, 12:04 AM	Does anyone else see the problem with Fascinate? Our party's bard has a +30 perform (at level 13) from high Cha and a skill focus feat or two and can force a DC 40+ Will against Fascinate after which he uses Suggestion to do whatever he wants. I, on the other hand, am playing the nearly useless gold dragon who's only purpose in the party is be somewhat rich (I payed the entire cost of our fortress/base of operations for the BARD'S ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE MINIONS!!!...which is also a problem). Edit: BTW, don't forget he can just use Modify Memory and repeat it all over again... I'm wondering if anyone else thinks there is a problem with bard non-combat abilities. I mean, really, with checks like that he might as well take over the world by fascinating world leaders and suggesting them to give up territority to him peace by peace in return for some small random task. I just thought I'd say, I'm not the only other person in the party who is having problems. Our Druid has also been ripped from having any fun in the game by the bard's monopoly outside of combat. In any case, the bard also fights better than me (wow...I get 5 attacks which are mostly negligable while the bard basically gets 125 attacks, and his level 11 cohort is better than me by far!).
BlaineTog 04-14-04, 12:34 AM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix Does anyone else see the problem with Fascinate?Nope. It's fun. Our party's bard has a +30 perform (at level 13) from high Cha and a skill focus feat or two and can force a DC 40+ Will against Fascinate after which he uses Suggestion to do whatever he wants. I, on the other hand, am playing the nearly useless gold dragon who's only purpose in the party is be somewhat rich (I payed the entire cost of our fortress/base of operations for the BARD'S ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE MINIONS!!!...which is also a problem).This sounds like your real problem is with Leadership. which is an NPC feat anyway. Edit: BTW, don't forget he can just use Modify Memory and repeat it all over again...Not Fascinate. If they maek the save, they are exempt for 24 hours. I'm wondering if anyone else thinks there is a problem with bard non-combat abilities.:uh-huh: Out of Combat abilities are kinda the whole point of the bard. It's their shtick. You might as well begrudge a cleric for being so good at healing. I mean, really, with checks like that he might as well take over the world by fascinating world leaders and suggesting them to give up territority to him peace by peace in return for some small random task.He's not just taking them? Sheesh. Weirdo. :looloo: I just thought I'd say, I'm not the only other person in the party who is having problems. Our Druid has also been ripped from having any fun in the game by the bard's monopoly outside of combat.Well, if it's impacting with other people's fun, then we have aproblem. [/not sarcastic] Bards are gret, but the require a mature, experienced role player to play one well. Your bard sounds like none of these things. In any case, the bard also fights better than me (wow...I get 5 attacks which are mostly negligable while the bard basically gets 125 attacks, and his level 11 cohort is better than me by far!). Again, it's leadership thats the problem here. The fact that he has through-the-roof Charisma merely increases the problem. Followers should not be allowed to fight in battle. They should be the castle staff or something, noncombattants. Resolving their attacks is just too hard.
Rslay 04-14-04, 02:32 AM	Also, isn't the will save vs. a suggestion a heck of a lot lower than the will save for fascinate?
BlaineTog 04-14-04, 02:43 AM	Yes, but since the enemy remains fascinated for a long time and the Bard can make a suggestion without disrupting the fasnicate effect, he can keep forcing a save until the facinate-ee fails the save.
CrimsonPhoenix 04-14-04, 11:06 PM	Our bard's player is great actually. He isn't really much of a powergamer at all, and he prefers to use intricate (and successful) strategies in most situations. The massive power of fascinate seems unlike him, so I was just wondering if I was missing something... Thx for replies anyway
BlaineTog 04-14-04, 11:10 PM	No, Fascinate is really powerful, but it's one of their few offensive abilities (other than their spells, which are mostly Enchantments and Illusions anyway).
Ving "Fish" Flotsam 04-15-04, 01:58 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Yes, but since the enemy remains fascinated for a long time and the Bard can make a suggestion without disrupting the fasnicate effect, he can keep forcing a save until the facinate-ee fails the save. .....Seriously? Are you sure? That's really awesome if so, and makes me respect my Bard's upcoming level alot more.
BlaineTog 04-15-04, 02:06 AM	Yeah. You can keep them fascinated for up to a number of rounds equal to your bard level and you can make a suggestion for free each round. At 20th level, they are mathmatically assued to roll at least 1 natural one (although chances are that they'll still fail on better than a 1).
Ving "Fish" Flotsam 04-15-04, 02:24 AM	Well, heck. That's just fantastic.
Talmariel 04-15-04, 02:35 PM	I was with you up until the attacks part. What level are we talking about? Could you be more specific about the attacks part? As for fascinate, don't forget that it doesn't work in combat. Beyond that, it grants nothing but that the bard has his or her audience's attention, imposing a penalty on Spot and Listen. The suggestion ability isn't a free action, it just doesn't disrupt fascinate or count against the bard's daily limit for bardic music. As a spell-like ability, it requires a standard action. Likewise, suggestion effectively makes the target's attitude Helpful. They aren't going to do anything obviously harmful to themselves. The suggestion has to be worded to sound reasonable. While inventive players (as you've said your bard is) can make a hell of a lot of things sound reasonable, there are limits, which are ultimately up to the DM. Don't forget the duration, either. The target of suggestion remembers what transpired. For most, they'll confusedly wonder why the did that, but likely think they had good reason to help the bard. For someone giving over valuables, I doubt they'll look kindly on that, and probably realize they've been magically duped. Your final problem seems to be with minions and the Leadership feat. What cohort does your bard have, exactly?
CrimsonPhoenix 04-15-04, 07:04 PM	An 11th level half-orc fighter, weilding two +2 bastard swords (maybe keen now...I forgot). Oh, and he also rides a Rhino Warbeast or something of the sort.... He can do around 80-100 damage per round, about the same as me at 2 levels higher, and has almost every ability I do. His weapons can be drawn quickly due to Gloves of Storing (I think they are called that..?) and he has Boots of Levitation, Mail of Time or something crazy like that and a clear spindle ioun stone. We all have an above normal amount of gold, and the bard himself has two Heward's Handy Haversacks full of random minor wondrous items with amazingly overpowered abilities (when used properly). A Decanter of Endless Water has become a propulsion device, a Bag of Tricks (or should I say...a bag of Bags of Tricks) has become a portable-army-maker, and a Folding Boat + Lyre of Building has become an invincible fortress on several occasions. But before I go rambling on and on...back to Fascinate. Is there anything our DM is missing? It allows a save = to perform result, imposes a - on spot and listen the target listens to the rest of the song, and it can't be used against hostile targets (but still good against unfriendly, like many encounters can start off). Is there anything I'm missing or is it just that good and our DM needs to make all his NPCs, etc have massive Will save bonuses to make a save in the 31-50 range?
BlaineTog 04-15-04, 08:11 PM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix An 11th level half-orc fighter, weilding two +2 bastard swords (maybe keen now...I forgot). Oh, and he also rides a Rhino Warbeast or something of the sort....The problem is (again) Leadership. PCs shouldn't be allowed to have it except in very special situations. We all have an above normal amount of gold, and the bard himself has two Heward's Handy Haversacks full of random minor wondrous items with amazingly overpowered abilities (when used properly). A Decanter of Endless Water has become a propulsion device, a Bag of Tricks (or should I say...a bag of Bags of Tricks) has become a portable-army-maker, and a Folding Boat + Lyre of Building has become an invincible fortress on several occasions.Petty magic items, when used correctly, are awesome. My bard filled his Haversack with them too. To be honest, most of these items sounds liek they woudl *help the party more than hurt it. But if it's making everyone else's game less fun, I suggest you talk to him about this. But before I go rambling on and on...back to Fascinate. Is there anything our DM is missing? It allows a save = to perform result, imposes a - on spot and listen the target listens to the rest of the song, and it can't be used against hostile targets (but still good against unfriendly, like many encounters can start off). Is there anything I'm missing or is it just that good and our DM needs to make all his NPCs, etc have massive Will save bonuses to make a save in the 31-50 range? Yes: Mindblank. It makes them totally immune.
Talmariel 04-15-04, 08:31 PM	That's all fascinate does, all right. I'm not exactly following how it's being abused in your game. It sounds good, but relatively harmless to me. I've got to say, you've piqued my interest about this game, but I'll leave it alone, and stick to the fascinate questions.
Sheer_FALACY 04-15-04, 10:59 PM	How is the cohort possibly outfighting a PC? It is, at a minimum, 2 levels lower, and it has like 1/4 the gp. And using followers to say that he gets 125 attacks is hilarious. Really, it is. "Well, I have 100 attacks at +2..." "Um, ok. Lets just take the average. You hit 5 times." "Yay, that is... um... 10 damage!" "Ok, that was fun. Now the wizard casts widened fireball. What was the leadership modifier for having an entirely exterminated army?" And if you think fascinate is abusive, wait till you see diplomacy. For 10,000 gp, some ranks, and the charisma that he probably wants anyway, a bard can have a diplomacy check in the 30s. What was the DC to make someone hostile friendly as a full round action? I also like your statement of "a skill focus feat or two." Once is the maximum.