Bard Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Earl Power
10-06-05, 06:20 PM Hey guys, in our coming campaign i wanted to play bard...but since were playing a much darker version of the forgotten realms...i didnt really like the idea of bardic music.......it just doesnt seem to fit completely for me. sure, bards should use music in the whole process of gathering and telling stories.....but i just dont think a bards major class ability being centred around it.

So, the changes me and my DM have agreed to make is that bards keep bardic knowledge at level 1 and instead of bardic music they receive a feat every 3 levels instead. this i think represents a typical bard in my eyes as it shows exactly what a "jack of all trades" a bard can be.....you can start to make all your abilities better whilst still retaining that status of a bard in a party not being better at any one thing than other classes.

we have decided that all the feats in the PHB will be divided into 4 categories and i have to choose one from each of the 4 then with my 5th feat start the cycle again to ensure i dont specialise in one area.

so what do you guys think of the idea in general??? and how would you suggest i make my character with this in light??? its level 1 bear in mind
Earl Power
10-06-05, 09:14 PM bump :_)
Phantom Lord
10-06-05, 09:35 PM Seems fairly reasonable to me. I'm not sure - I never played a bard. I'm actually going to be brushing up on it over the next couple weeks so that I can revise it (if it needs anything)
Shadowfax7
10-06-05, 09:39 PM That would mean you get 2 feats at the same time every 3 levels, since all characters get 1 feat every 3 levels.

How about 1 feat at 4th level plus another feat every 3 levels from there (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). At none of those levels does a character normally get a feat. Maybe even a bonus feat at 1st level for a total of 7 bonus feats.
Earl Power
10-07-05, 04:10 PM That would mean you get 2 feats at the same time every 3 levels, since all characters get 1 feat every 3 levels.

How about 1 feat at 4th level plus another feat every 3 levels from there (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). At none of those levels does a character normally get a feat. Maybe even a bonus feat at 1st level for a total of 7 bonus feats.

no, i meant it the way youve said 1 at 4th, 7th etc. :)

sorry if my first post wasnt clear!

my point is i see the bard as having more abilities spread across combat, magic and subtlety rather than just improving his music.

i'll be taking max ranks in perform but just because bards tend to be good at telling stories and singing and playing instruments....not because all my class abilites rely on it.

is there any way aprt from my bonus feat idea to do this??? or is this balanced as it is ??
FabulousRex
10-07-05, 04:21 PM There's a variant rule in Eberron for Bards that lets them sacrifice Bardic Music abilities for extra feats. I think if you want a combat Bard, Inspire Courage is a -must-, and can be interpreted in many ways: Chanting (ala monks), Oration (giving directions during battle), or perhaps simply a primal screaming and yelling while you fight (bezerker Bard concept). I consider Bards to be the D&D equivilent to having cool techno music playing while you thrash baddies.

Though if you want less of a 'manipulator' Bard, ditching Fascinate/Suggestion for 2 feats is reasonable. Inspire Competence may or may not fit your concept, same as Inspire Heroics and Inspire Greatness. But the basic Inspire Courage should most definately be kept, especially for a martial-oriented Bard.
Earl Power
10-07-05, 04:35 PM There's a variant rule in Eberron for Bards that lets them sacrifice Bardic Music abilities for extra feats. I think if you want a combat Bard, Inspire Courage is a -must-, and can be interpreted in many ways: Chanting (ala monks), Oration (giving directions during battle), or perhaps simply a primal screaming and yelling while you fight (bezerker Bard concept). I consider Bards to be the D&D equivilent to having cool techno music playing while you thrash baddies.

Though if you want less of a 'manipulator' Bard, ditching Fascinate/Suggestion for 2 feats is reasonable. Inspire Competence may or may not fit your concept, same as Inspire Heroics and Inspire Greatness. But the basic Inspire Courage should most definately be kept, especially for a martial-oriented Bard.

ahh, but to me the bard is the epitome of an "adventurer"....they can use decent-ish armour, cast decnt-ish spells and use decnt-ish weapons....they also have bardic knowledge which i love as lets face it, what kind of adventurer doesn't pick up information on his travels???

the biggest problem i have is the music....fair enough bards should use perform but i just dont think their entire focus for special abilities over 20 levels should be their music.

my idea of a bard is one who keeps a journal of tales from his adventures and is always looking to listen to new stories and get ideas.....and he does the same with his abilities....he picks up pointers it says in the PHB description from sorcerers, warriors and rogues.....my goal is to translate this flavour-text into real mechanics by giving them feats to customise your bard into a "jack-of-all-trades"
Shadowfax7
10-07-05, 09:33 PM ahh, but to me the bard is the epitome of an "adventurer"....they can use decent-ish armour, cast decnt-ish spells and use decnt-ish weapons....they also have bardic knowledge which i love as lets face it, what kind of adventurer doesn't pick up information on his travels???Out of curiosity, does your bard still retain the spell casting ?? Reason I ask, is I haven't seen you mention that in any of your posts.

IMO 6-7 add'l feats chosen w/o restriction is a fair trade-off for Bardic Music ability. Possibly even a light trade off, but definitely not overpowered.

Restricting the feats chosen makes the trade off underpowered.
Earl Power
10-07-05, 09:37 PM Out of curiosity, does your bard still retain the spell casting ?? Reason I ask, is I haven't seen you mention that in any of your posts.

IMO 6-7 add'l feats chosen w/o restriction is a fair trade-off for Bardic Music ability. Possibly even a light trade off, but definitely not overpowered.

Restricting the feats chosen makes the trade off underpowered.

yes, my idea for a bard would keep the spellcasting.

it would be 7 i think - 1 at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th.

hmmm, well i guess restricting the feats so i couldn't specialise in one area too much (i.e choose all combat feats) was kinda the point. if you think that would make it underpowered what do you suggest would correct it?? maybe good saves in all 3 saves ??? or is that too much ?
Shadowfax7
10-07-05, 09:48 PM maybe good saves in all 3 saves ??? or is that too much ?Too much, only the Monk has that and presumably because he's "mystical".

I figured if you really wanted a Bard that's a "Jack of All Trades", then why restrict his feat selection ??

However, if you were to make the feat restrictions broad like the fighter's, I think it would be fine.
Earl Power
10-07-05, 10:06 PM Too much, only the Monk has that and presumably because he's "mystical".

I figured if you really wanted a Bard that's a "Jack of All Trades", then why restrict his feat selection ??

However, if you were to make the feat restrictions broad like the fighter's, I think it would be fine.

when i say restrict i mean me and my DM are going to go through the feat lists in all the books we use and compile them into 3 or 4 bard lists ( combat, magic, stealth, social maybe?) and then i have to choose one feat from each group before i can choose from another group again (i.e if at 1st level i choose combat feat i have to then choose a magic, social and stealth feat before choosing another combat feat)

so i can still choose any feat i meet the prerquisites for but im restricted on when.

i dont know, maybe i just shouldnt be restricted and get a feat at every level where i would otherwise get a special ability related to bardic music....that would mean 10 feats though and fighters only get 11 bonus feats.

hmmmm.....actually how about this....at 2nd, 6th and 11th level i get combat style feats as a ranger would. and then 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level i get feats whch i can choose from any list ?
Shadowfax7
10-07-05, 11:51 PM i dont know, maybe i just shouldnt be restricted and get a feat at every level where i would otherwise get a special ability related to bardic music....that would mean 10 feats though and fighters only get 11 bonus feats.

hmmmm.....actually how about this....at 2nd, 6th and 11th level i get combat style feats as a ranger would. and then 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level i get feats whch i can choose from any list ?No, I think you were on the right track w/6-7 feats.

The Fighter gets 11 bonus "Fighter" feats and that's all he gets !!!

The Bard still gets spells, Bardic Knowlege, in addition to those 6-7 feats.
syntaxerror37
10-08-05, 07:52 AM out of curiosity, Are you and the DM making any changes to the bard's spell list to reflect the flavor change? perhaps adding in a few more damage spells and swaping out a few of the more "musical" spells? The reason I asked is focusing on the "Jack-of-All-Trades" aspect and being "good-ish" in all areas, and offensive magic is something bards lack in.
Earl Power
10-08-05, 12:19 PM out of curiosity, Are you and the DM making any changes to the bard's spell list to reflect the flavor change? perhaps adding in a few more damage spells and swaping out a few of the more "musical" spells? The reason I asked is focusing on the "Jack-of-All-Trades" aspect and being "good-ish" in all areas, and offensive magic is something bards lack in.

hmm, to be honest i hadnt looked too much into that. seems like a good idea though.

i suppose i could stay with my original idea of just bonus feats at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19 replacing bardic music and take some of the "music" spells like shatter and replacing them with more offensive spells. i think bards have enough buffs/defensive magic and also utility spells but as you say maybe a few minor offensive spells could work well...

...what spells would you suggst i add in???
CommanderFalken
10-08-05, 01:59 PM ...what spells would you suggst i add in???

Maybe you should haveit so that the bard can choose his spells from either any list, or the Sorc/Wiz and the Bard lists.
syntaxerror37
10-10-05, 03:25 PM Nothing as grandious as a fire ball, but perhaps range touch attack spells like scorching ray or Melf's acid arrow maybe? I see a bard going for point blank and percise shot more often than a wizard (especialy if you are going with the bonus feats instead of bardic music) which would make them much more useful in combat (+1 to the ab within 30', and removing the -4 penalty for fiering into melee) I don't think damage spells like that would severly effect the ballance, and would help with the flavor, and would keep the Fireballs and Ice Storms reserved for the wizards and sorcerers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Earl Power 10-06-05, 06:20 PM	Hey guys, in our coming campaign i wanted to play bard...but since were playing a much darker version of the forgotten realms...i didnt really like the idea of bardic music.......it just doesnt seem to fit completely for me. sure, bards should use music in the whole process of gathering and telling stories.....but i just dont think a bards major class ability being centred around it. So, the changes me and my DM have agreed to make is that bards keep bardic knowledge at level 1 and instead of bardic music they receive a feat every 3 levels instead. this i think represents a typical bard in my eyes as it shows exactly what a "jack of all trades" a bard can be.....you can start to make all your abilities better whilst still retaining that status of a bard in a party not being better at any one thing than other classes. we have decided that all the feats in the PHB will be divided into 4 categories and i have to choose one from each of the 4 then with my 5th feat start the cycle again to ensure i dont specialise in one area. so what do you guys think of the idea in general??? and how would you suggest i make my character with this in light??? its level 1 bear in mind
Earl Power 10-06-05, 09:14 PM	bump :_)
Phantom Lord 10-06-05, 09:35 PM	Seems fairly reasonable to me. I'm not sure - I never played a bard. I'm actually going to be brushing up on it over the next couple weeks so that I can revise it (if it needs anything)
Shadowfax7 10-06-05, 09:39 PM	That would mean you get 2 feats at the same time every 3 levels, since all characters get 1 feat every 3 levels. How about 1 feat at 4th level plus another feat every 3 levels from there (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). At none of those levels does a character normally get a feat. Maybe even a bonus feat at 1st level for a total of 7 bonus feats.
Earl Power 10-07-05, 04:10 PM	That would mean you get 2 feats at the same time every 3 levels, since all characters get 1 feat every 3 levels. How about 1 feat at 4th level plus another feat every 3 levels from there (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). At none of those levels does a character normally get a feat. Maybe even a bonus feat at 1st level for a total of 7 bonus feats. no, i meant it the way youve said 1 at 4th, 7th etc. :) sorry if my first post wasnt clear! my point is i see the bard as having more abilities spread across combat, magic and subtlety rather than just improving his music. i'll be taking max ranks in perform but just because bards tend to be good at telling stories and singing and playing instruments....not because all my class abilites rely on it. is there any way aprt from my bonus feat idea to do this??? or is this balanced as it is ??
FabulousRex 10-07-05, 04:21 PM	There's a variant rule in Eberron for Bards that lets them sacrifice Bardic Music abilities for extra feats. I think if you want a combat Bard, Inspire Courage is a -must-, and can be interpreted in many ways: Chanting (ala monks), Oration (giving directions during battle), or perhaps simply a primal screaming and yelling while you fight (bezerker Bard concept). I consider Bards to be the D&D equivilent to having cool techno music playing while you thrash baddies. Though if you want less of a 'manipulator' Bard, ditching Fascinate/Suggestion for 2 feats is reasonable. Inspire Competence may or may not fit your concept, same as Inspire Heroics and Inspire Greatness. But the basic Inspire Courage should most definately be kept, especially for a martial-oriented Bard.
Earl Power 10-07-05, 04:35 PM	There's a variant rule in Eberron for Bards that lets them sacrifice Bardic Music abilities for extra feats. I think if you want a combat Bard, Inspire Courage is a -must-, and can be interpreted in many ways: Chanting (ala monks), Oration (giving directions during battle), or perhaps simply a primal screaming and yelling while you fight (bezerker Bard concept). I consider Bards to be the D&D equivilent to having cool techno music playing while you thrash baddies. Though if you want less of a 'manipulator' Bard, ditching Fascinate/Suggestion for 2 feats is reasonable. Inspire Competence may or may not fit your concept, same as Inspire Heroics and Inspire Greatness. But the basic Inspire Courage should most definately be kept, especially for a martial-oriented Bard. ahh, but to me the bard is the epitome of an "adventurer"....they can use decent-ish armour, cast decnt-ish spells and use decnt-ish weapons....they also have bardic knowledge which i love as lets face it, what kind of adventurer doesn't pick up information on his travels??? the biggest problem i have is the music....fair enough bards should use perform but i just dont think their entire focus for special abilities over 20 levels should be their music. my idea of a bard is one who keeps a journal of tales from his adventures and is always looking to listen to new stories and get ideas.....and he does the same with his abilities....he picks up pointers it says in the PHB description from sorcerers, warriors and rogues.....my goal is to translate this flavour-text into real mechanics by giving them feats to customise your bard into a "jack-of-all-trades"
Shadowfax7 10-07-05, 09:33 PM	ahh, but to me the bard is the epitome of an "adventurer"....they can use decent-ish armour, cast decnt-ish spells and use decnt-ish weapons....they also have bardic knowledge which i love as lets face it, what kind of adventurer doesn't pick up information on his travels???Out of curiosity, does your bard still retain the spell casting ?? Reason I ask, is I haven't seen you mention that in any of your posts. IMO 6-7 add'l feats chosen w/o restriction is a fair trade-off for Bardic Music ability. Possibly even a light trade off, but definitely not overpowered. Restricting the feats chosen makes the trade off underpowered.
Earl Power 10-07-05, 09:37 PM	Out of curiosity, does your bard still retain the spell casting ?? Reason I ask, is I haven't seen you mention that in any of your posts. IMO 6-7 add'l feats chosen w/o restriction is a fair trade-off for Bardic Music ability. Possibly even a light trade off, but definitely not overpowered. Restricting the feats chosen makes the trade off underpowered. yes, my idea for a bard would keep the spellcasting. it would be 7 i think - 1 at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th. hmmm, well i guess restricting the feats so i couldn't specialise in one area too much (i.e choose all combat feats) was kinda the point. if you think that would make it underpowered what do you suggest would correct it?? maybe good saves in all 3 saves ??? or is that too much ?
Shadowfax7 10-07-05, 09:48 PM	maybe good saves in all 3 saves ??? or is that too much ?Too much, only the Monk has that and presumably because he's "mystical". I figured if you really wanted a Bard that's a "Jack of All Trades", then why restrict his feat selection ?? However, if you were to make the feat restrictions broad like the fighter's, I think it would be fine.
Earl Power 10-07-05, 10:06 PM	Too much, only the Monk has that and presumably because he's "mystical". I figured if you really wanted a Bard that's a "Jack of All Trades", then why restrict his feat selection ?? However, if you were to make the feat restrictions broad like the fighter's, I think it would be fine. when i say restrict i mean me and my DM are going to go through the feat lists in all the books we use and compile them into 3 or 4 bard lists ( combat, magic, stealth, social maybe?) and then i have to choose one feat from each group before i can choose from another group again (i.e if at 1st level i choose combat feat i have to then choose a magic, social and stealth feat before choosing another combat feat) so i can still choose any feat i meet the prerquisites for but im restricted on when. i dont know, maybe i just shouldnt be restricted and get a feat at every level where i would otherwise get a special ability related to bardic music....that would mean 10 feats though and fighters only get 11 bonus feats. hmmmm.....actually how about this....at 2nd, 6th and 11th level i get combat style feats as a ranger would. and then 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level i get feats whch i can choose from any list ?
Shadowfax7 10-07-05, 11:51 PM	i dont know, maybe i just shouldnt be restricted and get a feat at every level where i would otherwise get a special ability related to bardic music....that would mean 10 feats though and fighters only get 11 bonus feats. hmmmm.....actually how about this....at 2nd, 6th and 11th level i get combat style feats as a ranger would. and then 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level i get feats whch i can choose from any list ?No, I think you were on the right track w/6-7 feats. The Fighter gets 11 bonus "Fighter" feats and that's all he gets !!! The Bard still gets spells, Bardic Knowlege, in addition to those 6-7 feats.
syntaxerror37 10-08-05, 07:52 AM	out of curiosity, Are you and the DM making any changes to the bard's spell list to reflect the flavor change? perhaps adding in a few more damage spells and swaping out a few of the more "musical" spells? The reason I asked is focusing on the "Jack-of-All-Trades" aspect and being "good-ish" in all areas, and offensive magic is something bards lack in.
Earl Power 10-08-05, 12:19 PM	out of curiosity, Are you and the DM making any changes to the bard's spell list to reflect the flavor change? perhaps adding in a few more damage spells and swaping out a few of the more "musical" spells? The reason I asked is focusing on the "Jack-of-All-Trades" aspect and being "good-ish" in all areas, and offensive magic is something bards lack in. hmm, to be honest i hadnt looked too much into that. seems like a good idea though. i suppose i could stay with my original idea of just bonus feats at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19 replacing bardic music and take some of the "music" spells like shatter and replacing them with more offensive spells. i think bards have enough buffs/defensive magic and also utility spells but as you say maybe a few minor offensive spells could work well... ...what spells would you suggst i add in???
CommanderFalken 10-08-05, 01:59 PM	...what spells would you suggst i add in??? Maybe you should haveit so that the bard can choose his spells from either any list, or the Sorc/Wiz and the Bard lists.
syntaxerror37 10-10-05, 03:25 PM	Nothing as grandious as a fire ball, but perhaps range touch attack spells like scorching ray or Melf's acid arrow maybe? I see a bard going for point blank and percise shot more often than a wizard (especialy if you are going with the bonus feats instead of bardic music) which would make them much more useful in combat (+1 to the ab within 30', and removing the -4 penalty for fiering into melee) I don't think damage spells like that would severly effect the ballance, and would help with the flavor, and would keep the Fireballs and Ice Storms reserved for the wizards and sorcerers.