Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ereanor 02-16-07, 08:51 PM	I'm playing a bard in my current campaign. I'm basically a buffer/song guy who tries disabling opponents with enchantment spells. Othside of combat I am very skill/knowledge oriented. I enjoy my role and have sort of taken the role playing aspect of not dealing direct damage but more disabling spells. My question is what to do against undead/constructs/creatures immune to mind-affecting in general? Are my chosen spells OK or are they too focused? Should I just focus on boosting the group(Inspire Courage/Greatness, casting Grease, and Glitterdust, etc.) when my spells/songs become ineffective or should I try to solve this weakness? I really enjoy being a support character and playing this character so far has been really fun. I'm fine excepting my limitations in certain areas and doing the best I can with what I have. Is this a smart atitude or should I try to improve? Thanks for all the help. Human Bard 9 Stats: Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 18 Feats: Bonus: Improved Initiative 1. Spell Focus; Enchantment 3. Versitile Performer 6. Leadership 9. Subsonics Possible upcoming feat selection: 12. Greater Spell Focus; Enchantment 15. Spell Penetration 18. Greater Spell Penetration Spells: 0. Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Resistance. 1. Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Inspirational Boost. 2. Alter Self, Mirror Image, Hold Person(Will swap out once I get Hold Monster. Perhaps for Minor Image, Invisibility, Shatter or Eagle's Splendor-not sure yet), Glitterdust. 3. Glibness, Sculpt Sound, Confusion. Down the line will probably add Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Major Image(If I don't choose Minor Image),
runestar 02-16-07, 08:53 PM	You could always just buff your own party...
nightwyrm 02-16-07, 09:12 PM	I guess if you're desperate, you could cast cure light wound on the undead. But seriously, buff up your party and rely on them.
Ereanor 02-16-07, 09:33 PM	That's what Ive been doing and it has turned out all right thus far. I was considering adding Sound Burst and Shout for those times but I thought it might take away from the "role-playing" aspect of my character. your responses have just reassured me that I should continue with my original strategy of buffing everyone else in those situations and not worry to much over it. Thanks for the help it really solidifies my characters choices and reasoning. Thanks again.
tiluvias99 02-16-07, 11:12 PM	You could try the Requiem feat from Libris Mortis.
DrakaraGM 02-16-07, 11:16 PM	Here's a suggestion -- at 10th level, you get to learn a new 3rd level spell. Take Slow. Sure, it is not an enchantment -- BUT it kinda feels like one, and the advantage is that it is a Transmutation spell -- undead are NOT immune to it... So you may not get the DC increase from your feat(s) BUT the undead DO have to make a save, they don't get to ignore you. :-) Targets 1 creature per level -- check, useful against hordes (well, small hordes) of undead. Will negates so it seems similar to Enchantments in that regard, but it is not mind-affecting. Works on plants and oozes and other stuff too. :cool: Admittedly it is a close range spell, so at 10th level your range will be only 50 feet, and all the targets have to be within 30 feet of each other -- but hey, it is a very effective spell overall. There are plenty of undead you REALLY want to only be able to move OR attack once -- not move AND attack once, or full attack. Not to mention, the creatures' actual speed is halved, round down to nearest 5 foot increment if necessary. And the -1 to their attacks, AC, and Reflex saves is nice too... Sure, sometimes they will all save. And some undead have decent Will saves. But hey, you want a spell that is not at touch range, that is not direct damage, that messes the enemy up so your friends can take them down -- Slow works just great for that, and not just on undead. :D Now, if you want to do direct damage with a touch, then at 10th level, take Cure Serious Wounds. Can use it to heal your friends or harm undead. But I am assuming that Cure Light Wounds fulfills the former need good enough, and you do have the option to do that latter -- it just is not very effective and doesn't work from a distance. Nope, Slow is the ticket. Once again -- may not be an enchantment, but the fact that it is a Transmutation goes right along with it not being mind-affecting, which is what you need. ;)
Ereanor 02-17-07, 12:26 AM	tiluvias99: Requiem is something I have considered but I'm not sure I wish to dedicate a feat in order to Fascinate/Suggest any undead. It is a very good suggestion though and I thank you for it. Actually upon further review I realize that I am only familiar with the Requiem feat from Song and Silence. Is the Libris Mortis feat the same? DrakaraGM: You make a very good case for the spell slow. I wasn't really considering adding that spell to my capabilities but you have made me see its usefulness. I even appreciate that spell against non undead. Hmmm the decision making has just gotten harder. Thanks for all the replies thus far. They have all been really helpful and I am thankful for them.
CaoSlayer 02-17-07, 04:15 AM	You have two great anti-anything spells: glitterdust and grease, undead are not inmune to blindness as far as Im concerned. Also I see a lack of image spells, as have been said mindless undead cant realize that something is an illusion or real so they never disbelieve anything, you can perfectly create an illusionary moving wall of stone arround the party and the undead will be unnable to do anything agaisnt it. Eagle´s is crap, ignore it cause it duration is too small for using it most the time and dont stacks with magical items. For your level 12 feat you can considere take cratf magic weapons and armor since that feat will help you to take better weapons and armors for you so you can tank better. For a great spell know for crafting weapons is summon monsters that allows you bane weapons. I think is an overkill to take both subsonics and scult sound since both the feat and the spell are used for silent bardic music.
Ereanor 02-17-07, 09:51 AM	I was actually considering dropping Subsonics (because of your advise)and grabbing Weapon Finesse instead. Our group has lost a couple of members lately and my previous character has died so we could really use some melee help. I definitely want to take one of the image spells and will either take it at 10th with my 3rd level spell or 11th when I swap out Hold Person. The reason I took enchantment was the group lacked that "save or be disabled" spell. We have alot of direct damage spells but nothing like Hold Person or Confusion. I figured I would make that my little niche in battle. BTW, I read your Bard Guide often. It is very informative and useful. It is saved in my favorites and I consult it often.
Deus_Proelii 02-17-07, 05:12 PM	Requiem isn't that useful IMHO. Unless you have a prestige class that features some different application of bardic music, the only abilities you could apply Requiem to are Fascinate + Suggestion (assuming you're not looking to Inspire Courage/Greatness in undead servants). If you read the rules of Fascinate again you'll see that you can't use this ability against a creature who is being threatened by you or an ally of yours. Since undead are default hostile towards you, they fit in that category, so even if you had Requiem in most situations you would not have the chance to use Fascinate + Suggestion. I agree with the posters who say that you should just buff your party.
CaoSlayer 02-17-07, 06:00 PM	If you read the rules of Fascinate again you'll see that you can't use this ability against a creature who is being threatened by you or an ally of yours. Since undead are default hostile towards you, they fit in that category, so even if you had Requiem in most situations you would not have the chance to use Fascinate + Suggestion. That something is hostile towards you dont means that you are hostile against it. As long you (and party members) dont do something threatening you can use fascinate.
mregecko 02-17-07, 08:44 PM	Once you hit 10th level (or is it 11th?), prc out into Seeker of the Song... Take an extra music feat... You'll be able to sing & sling bardic buffs & dmg spells all day long. 2 buffs at a time, refrains for damage. -- G
The Simbul 02-17-07, 10:20 PM	Good Hope Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: One living creature/level, no two of which may be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell instills powerful hope in the subjects. Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. Good hope counters and dispels crushing despair. You should have taken this spell well before considering sculpt sound or glibness. I imagine it would come in handy far more often than a glibness spell, especially when you can buy potions of glibness or take the lower level suggestion spell as a temporary substitute. Every bard should have good hope because it is a bard-only spell and because it is one of the few spells that gives a morale bonus to damage rolls. Meanwhile despite being one level higher than heroism, it affects one creature per caster level instead of just one creature. +2 to damage rolls doesn't seem like much until you multiply it by the number of combat characters in the party and their number of attacks per round. You then cast cure spells on your party until the creature is defeated. If you are fighting undead then you can use mass cure spells to heal the party and damage the enemies at the same time.
Deus_Proelii 02-17-07, 10:34 PM	That something is hostile towards you dont means that you are hostile against it. As long you (and party members) dont do something threatening you can use fascinate. You have a point... however that would be a tough point to argue against a DM. So at best this would be DM-dependent and at worst less than a good use of a feat slot. Does the morale bonus from Good Hope stack with Inspire Courage? Not really right? Since both bonuses are "morale" bonuses... :confused:
The Simbul 02-20-07, 01:33 AM	Inspire Courage uses up bardic music and lasts as long as you sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. Good Hope uses up a 3rd level spell slot, and lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds) per level. At level 9 a Bard's inspire courage will not grant a bonus greater than good hope (+2), and the spell applies to more rolls and checks than the former ability. By casting good hope well before the battle begins the Bard can perform other actions when combat starts, like using those freed-up bardic music attempts on cycling Inspire Greatness onto each of his companions, one after another, and then either replenishing them or casting cure spells when it comes time for them to expire.
CaoSlayer 02-20-07, 06:01 AM	Inspire Courage uses up bardic music and lasts as long as you sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. Good Hope uses up a 3rd level spell slot, and lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds) per level. At level 9 a Bard's inspire courage will not grant a bonus greater than good hope (+2), and the spell applies to more rolls and checks than the former ability. By casting good hope well before the battle begins the Bard can perform other actions when combat starts, like using those freed-up bardic music attempts on cycling Inspire Greatness onto each of his companions, one after another, and then either replenishing them or casting cure spells when it comes time for them to expire. Well, good hope uses a spell know and only can be used up to three-four times per day... and level 3 spells are one of the best spell levels for a bard in top of that. while inspire courage is free to know and can be used once per bard level. And in this case the bard have subsonics and sculpt sound so he can perfectly sing for minutes or hours without alarming the enemy... and with inspiracional boost the song grants +3 to hit and damage. umm, I overlooked the roll word in the description, seems weird since no other spell or ability affects damage rolls so it seems a kind of typo and it just means a bonus to damage.