Post/Author/DateTime	Post
3doorsfan 09-27-05, 11:01 PM	has anyone ever tried to make a spellless bards? i want to try a low magic campaign but i LOVE bards. thanks for any help
runestar 09-28-05, 12:11 AM	Aren't they called experts?
Wyrd Bearer 09-28-05, 12:43 AM	Heh, funny, my roommate asked me the same question earlier tonight. I really don't know. Maybe increase the BAB to full and give them all good saves and keep the other abilities. Or something like that.
3doorsfan 09-28-05, 01:02 AM	all good saves would be a start, maybe 8 skill points per level a full BAB doesnt really fit, you know what i mean? what about giving them the loremasters ability? (i'm referring to the secrets) or perhaps the horizon walkers abilities (but regular instead of plannar)
caeruleus 09-28-05, 01:31 AM	all good saves would be a start, maybe 8 skill points per level a full BAB doesnt really fit, you know what i mean? what about giving them the loremasters ability? (i'm referring to the secrets) or perhaps the horizon walkers abilities (but regular instead of plannar) Right, a full BAB doesn't fit, but then neither does a good Fort save. I'd recommend some sort of extra ability at first level, then at level 3, and every 3rd level after that (6th, 9th, 12th, etc). Loremaster secrets might be good. Depending on the particular flavor you want for your bard, try giving them various rogue abilities and/or druid abilities (resist nature's lure could be especially fitting, for example). Oh, and 8 skill points might also be a good idea (depending on how good the abilities you give them are).
Tedly224 09-28-05, 01:37 AM	It's possible to do in a way if you own the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane books. Go bard at first level and then snag 4 levels of Fighter, or something else if you want. Fighter works best for me for this idea as you gain the 3 bonus feats from the levels which you can use for fighting based Feats. At level 6 you can enter into the Warchanter class and grab 5 levels of that which gives you more music per day and new songs, but most importantly the ability to use 2 songs at once. At level 10 head off for Seeker of the Song and take 10 levels of that. At this point you have more song types, more uses per day, and can mingle in another song so from the combined classes you can have 3 songs running at once. As you were able to pick up 3 fighting feats from your 4 fighter levels, you can use new feats gained from leveling (3, 6, 9, 12, etc) for feats like Subvocalize and Extra Music (4 more song uses per day, each time you take it. It stacks). This route of bard 1/fighter 4/warchanter 5/seeker of the song 10 would net you 11d6, 5d8, and 4d10 hit dice and gain 16 base song uses per day with a wide variety of songs with up to 3 songs in use at once at 12th level I think. Ending BAB would be 16, which is the magic number for full iterative attacks. It's a thought anyway, although I'm not sure how strong it would be. Rather than go with Warchanter another option would be to grab Dirgesinger instead for 5 levels, from the Libris Mortis book.
periscope 09-28-05, 02:59 AM	A guy made a Jester class that pretty much fit the bill.
CaoSlayer 09-28-05, 06:57 AM	also in addition to the WChanter you can use the warrior skald from races of faerun... ask your master about updating it to 3.5 by giving him 6 skill points a level or d8 hp
3doorsfan 09-28-05, 12:59 PM	i dont want to multiclass, i want a spellless bard multiclassing (or PRc) doesnt change the bard i want to build a class, not a character
FabulousRex 09-28-05, 01:08 PM	Then a simple thing would be to pick one area the Bard does well, and run with it. Combat- Add Warchanter songs to the base class instead of Fascinate/Suggestion, perhaps add a small number of Marshal Auras as well. Still medium BAB, but d8 HD and full martial weapon proficienties. Singing- Add Seeker of the Song music instead of Inspire Competance and high level Inspire Greatness/Heroics. Keep all else the same. This will be a sort of blaster type, but still low magic IMO.
CaoSlayer 09-28-05, 01:37 PM	i dont want to multiclass, i want a spellless bard multiclassing (or PRc) doesnt change the bard i want to build a class, not a character Take a look into the uncon contest of variations. if you want a singing bard, just double this bardic music uses and give him some bonus feat for spending in any of the song feats available on the splat books. if you wants a melee bard, just give him good bab and d8 for hp, change also will to fort good save.
3doorsfan 09-29-05, 02:09 AM	how about item creation a la artificer? i dont mean any of the arificers other abilities (craft reserve, metamagic triggers, etc) just plain old giving the bard item creation feats coupled with the artificers method of using use magic device to emulate spells any thoughts?
CaoSlayer 09-29-05, 05:05 AM	how about item creation a la artificer? i dont mean any of the arificers other abilities (craft reserve, metamagic triggers, etc) just plain old giving the bard item creation feats coupled with the artificers method of using use magic device to emulate spells any thoughts? The bardic spellcasting it is very strong, it is a nice thing, but not enought.
adamb0nd 09-29-05, 10:06 AM	Other then good saves? First off, I wouldnt give them the +8 skill points, takes some thing important away from the rogue. When it comes down to it though, how do you want to change them? More skill full? More combat ready? More knowledgable? You need to think about this stuff, because it makes the difference between adding some proficiencies and bab, or creating new abilities. One thing that you could definately do, is use the contact system. I dont know where it exists in DND, but nobles in the starwars pen and paper recieve it. Its an ability that really makes sense for a bard, who tends to be a more diplomatic character. Basicly, I think its once a game session you can call on a favor from your contacts and recieve money or goods or favor twards your goal... better you role, the more they want to help you. The higher your level, the more contacts you have to work with. These can be any one from lowly ship builder, to th kings right hand man... work it out with the dm
3doorsfan 09-29-05, 11:58 AM	how does the contact system work in sw? im not familiar with it
Blaze_the_Dragon 09-29-05, 12:26 PM	Ah, the Bard without spells, My friend, you are trying to create what the DM never allowed me to play... Screw modifying there BAB, or screw there saves, bards are good enough fighters as they are (Though there not great) I say give your Bard A rouges Sneak attack, That'll replace your Spells nicly, and give you a bit of back-stabbing ablity, Have fun. TTFN Blaze_The_Dragon
Selena Ombrenoire 09-29-05, 12:42 PM	In the Magic of Incarnum, there are racial substitution levels for a skarn rogue. They removed the trapsense ability to replace it with bardic knowledge. I once played a shy bard... because she was too shy to use bardic music, I didn't gave her any level in the bard class. She was a rogue, specialized in perform. She turned out very well. I was surprised to see how non-bard characters can make really good "bards" At higher levels, you can add examplar levels ( PrC Complete adventurer ) to your character to add some flavor :)
adamb0nd 09-29-05, 01:08 PM	I dont have the book on me, but from what I remember, It's called "Favor". At every couple of levels, you get a favor bonus... so maybe it starts at +1, then goes up by one every four levels (+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6). Then theres a difficulty of calling the favor in. The more you ask, the harder the DC. Again, i dont have the rules on me, but Im pretty sure thats how it works.
3doorsfan 09-29-05, 01:12 PM	kinda like in eberron? but what can one ask for? thanks for all the help guys
adamb0nd 09-29-05, 04:29 PM	Depend from case to case. First off, it depends on who your DM is allowing you to call on. Is the person near? Can he becontacted? Once contacted, does he have a means of getting the desired help to the group? DC 5 is really simple, and 25 is extreme. The DC can change however, because asking one favor from one person can be alot different then asking the same favor from another. Example, Asking a king to borrow 25 GP might be between 5 and 10, depending on how well the king favors the PC. Asking a friend who is a local farm hand to borrow 25gp may be DC 20, because is nearly all his savings. The DM must use his best judgement. As for what kind of favors a PC can ask for? The skys the limit friend. It really depends on who your NPC contacts are that your asking. If your contacts are a sailor, an inn keeper, and a black smith... reasonable favors may be asking for transportation, ordering something from a foreign port, free or discounted rooms, free or discounted weapon/armor repairs... ect. Asking for your sailor friend to lend you a horse, would be unreasonable. Again, its up to the DM, he has to use logic.
Illithid Tentacles 09-30-05, 08:47 PM	I'd suggest a bonus feat every fourth or fifth level. Barring that, I'd give him some kind of special ability every fourth level or so, like a boost to one of his music abilities (longer duration or a higher bonus), Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, or maybe a level or two of the Uncanny Dodge ability.
Nephlite 09-30-05, 09:53 PM	I'll do my best: Well about a Nature Bard: at level 5 Wild Shape, etc. (But no elemental powers) and level 4 like a ranger get Animal companion (effective level -3 like a Ranger). NATURE BARD Alignment: Any nonlawful. Hit Die: d6. Class Skills The bard's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Table: The Nature Bard Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic music, countersong, fascinate, Inspire courage +1 2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Wild Empathy 3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Inspire competence 4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Animal Companion 5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Wild shape (1/day) 6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Wild shape (2/day), Suggestion 7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Wild shape (3/day) 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Wild shape (Large), Inspire courage +2 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Inspire greatness 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Wild shape (4/day) 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Wild shape (Tiny) 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Wild shape (plant), Song of freedom 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Wild shape (5/day), Inspire courage +3 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Inspire heroics 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Wild shape (6/day), Mass suggestion 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Inspire courage +4 Class Features All of the following are class features of the bard. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the sap, scimitar, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below). Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. DC Type of Knowledge 10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population. 20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends. 25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by. 30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don't understand the significance of the knowledge. Bardic Music: Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks. Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Countersong (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components). Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself ) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard's Perform check result for the save. Countersong has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The bard may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds. Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature's Will save against the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The bard must also be able to see the ally. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear the bard's music. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as the bard concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability. Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard's concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn't count against a bard's daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard's level + bard's Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability. Inspire Greatness (Su): A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting him or her extra fighting capability. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 9th, he can target one additional ally with a single use of this ability (two at 12th level, three at 15th, four at 18th). To inspire greatness, a bard must sing and an ally must hear him sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability. Song of Freedom (Sp): A bard of 12th level or higher with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell (caster level equals the character's bard level). Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music, and it functions on a single target within 30 feet. A bard can't use song of freedom on himself. Inspire Heroics (Su): A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, he can inspire heroics in one additional creature. To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round. A creature so inspired gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability. Mass Suggestion (Sp): This ability functions like suggestion, above, except that a bard of 18th level or higher with 21 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make the suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated (see above). Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability. Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a Bard gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the Bard's list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the Bard on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. A Bard may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his Bard level. Like a druid, a Bard cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st. Wild Empathy (Ex): A Bard at Level 2 can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The bard rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the bard and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A bard can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check. Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Nature Bard may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Bard leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a Bard gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. A Bard loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.) A Bard can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Bard. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form's Hit Dice can't exceed the character's Bard level. At 12th level, a Bard becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A Bard can't use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn't a creature.) Ex-Bards A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.
Josheva 09-30-05, 11:25 PM	Take a look at the Bard class I made at this link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7392932#post7392932) If you want him without spells give him the bardic music and bardic lore back and remove spells.