Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titan W 04-21-05, 09:28 PM	When one of my firends (Christman, who is on the boards, and an excessive powergamer, such as myself) plays his bard follows 3 steps to control anyone, first he has a 36 charisma (+12)... he uses a maxed out level 14 perform skill(Oratory, and humms or the like) (17 ranks +12=29) to facinate anyone he pleases, then he casts quickened sugestion to control everyone (Even the PCs in the group)... He has the same +29 mod to diplomacy and he has a few items bringing it up to about +30... even my +12 rouge/wizard can't stand up to it with an added bonus... he has come to the point where he obtained several very powerful rings, as well as one of my character's +5 keen rapiers, jsut by talking, it's not really a complaint, I'm jsut wondering if we are doing something wrong, buecause he's even able ot do it to our enemies if they don't get to go hostile first, and then talks them into comitting equivalent suicide before they can react... This seems painfuly broken ofr a core class, especially since it's not talked about, and wiht proper metamagic he can cast sugestion an odd 18-20 times per day... (I'm guilty of overusing some spells, on one character, and taking exemplar for an autmatic 46 to MS and 37 to Hide on another... but still it's not as abusive...) Are we messing up and giving our bard too much power? (He's about to aquire a succubus cohort so he can have every enemy get the kiss of death willingly... that's going to be a pain...
BlaineTog 04-21-05, 09:33 PM	You can't use Diplomacy on PCs. EDIT: You also can't quicken the Suggestion bardic music (as it sounds like he's doing). You also have to fascinate them first.
Titan W 04-21-05, 09:52 PM	Ah.. good to hear... you can't facinate PCs... and he is facinating them first... using his perform...
EvilVegan 04-21-05, 10:12 PM	You can FASCINATE pcs, you can't use DIPLOMACY on them. Diplomacy is the equivalent of skipping RP when talking to NPCs. It never applies to PCs. Fascinate is a bardic music ability that applies to everyone. It then allows you to suggest things using another bardic music ability. It is not casting a spell, nor is it quickened. It is simply bardic music ability, which you have a limited # of per day.
Vaelan 04-21-05, 10:40 PM	...he has come to the point where he obtained several very powerful rings, as well as one of my character's +5 keen rapiers, jsut by talking... First of all, Diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. Second, Diplomacy only makes the person friendly towards the user. How many friends would you give (not lend) your car to? How many friends would you commit suicide for just because they asked you? A reasonable(sane) person would do neither of these things.
TrustTymora 04-21-05, 10:53 PM	Ummm, I don't get it. How does he have your +5 rapier? Even if he suggested you give it to him, so what. What did you do as soon as the spell ended when you gave him the rapier? You said...hey I didn't mean to give that to you, I'm not sure what I was thinking but I'll have it back now. Then the bickering was on...but you said I could have it.....and now I'm saying I was wrong you can't, I'll have it back now...but you gave it as a gift....ya I said that for some reason but really I can't explain why, I'll have it back now....but thats not right you gave it to me....listen I'm not sure what happened I'll be talking to my church and having the clergy there commune with my God for me to fill me in on the exact details about why I did such a strange thing but in the mean time give me my dam rapier! TT
Votan 04-21-05, 11:06 PM	Ummm, I don't get it. How does he have your +5 rapier? Even if he suggested you give it to him, so what. From the SRD: "You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. The suggested course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed. A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as –1 or –2)." First of all, giving away one's primary magic weapon seems to be pretty harmful to me. Also, the suggestion needs to seem reasonable -- it's easy to ask to borrow the sword but keeping it is another matter altogether. Note also that the activity ceases at the end of the spell at which point the character is no longer bound by the spell. Reasonable ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft should make it obvious that the character is using suggestion (people keep doing these odd things because he asks after doing something that a bard could use to cast suggestion -- people in this world would understand class abilities). This would seem to give a reasonable course of action once the suggstion wears off . . .
TrustTymora 04-21-05, 11:27 PM	Reasonable ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft should make it obvious that the character is using suggestion . . . Yes, I know it is only a DC28 spellcraft check to determine the spell after rolling the saving throw(no action required). Not sure about you but if that was done to me not only would I be getting the rapier back but he would be paying me an "insult/stupidity" fee and it better be worth my while. Many an adventurer dies in combat because an ally was a split second late in lending a hand....hmmm too bad he died, oh well he was a smuck anyway and we really didn't like/trust/or care for him that much. He was always doing stupid things like trying to talk us out of our valuables. He did have lots of cool items and powerful rings though so lets split them up fairly okay guys.... TT
Moon-Lancer 04-21-05, 11:44 PM	Fist ask him for your weapon, then Demand it (in charicter) then tell him (the player) he cannot use that skill deplomacy on you and the action was breaking the rules and was not viable. If nothing changes, i would say this is not a very nice player, and would kill his charicter as he slept. I am hopeing his is not a elf. elves never seem to sleep. What class are you?
crazymonkdude 04-22-05, 02:30 AM	To answer your question, yes, you are giving him WAY too much power over the game. Suggestion doesn't equal dominate person. At level 14, he has a 36 in cha? Let's see nat 18+3 level ups+6 cloak of cha=27. Where did he get the other nine points? Tome of Leadership +5? What stupid DM threw him that kind of bone? Wishes? You guys allowed him to waste good wishes on building his already high cha? Remember, wishes and tomes both provide inherent bonuses which do NOT stack. So I have no idea where he is getting his uber charisma from. Even if that was somehow legit, and once again I am skeptical, how can he be using this to break your game? Are you killing everyone after he suggests them? Because if not, then eventually, especially at high level, his character will gain a reputation as a manipulator and no one will allow him to perform in front of them....I just checked and mass suggestion doesn't come into play until lvl 18, so he can only suggest one person with each use of bardic music. What about henchmen? What about passerbys? What about undead or constructs or anything that can't be affected by mind-altering spells? Now to the final point. Using any ability against fellow players should bring immediate reprisal. This is just like the rogue stealing from his mates while they're asleep. The others bring up good points as to whether or not it is even effective, but whether it is or not, the rest of you are going to remember being manipulated. It is a compulsion effect, not charm effect. Once it fades, you will be ****** that he used you that way. Worse case scenerio, you would boot him from the group. Let him adventure on his own. You guys will get another bard who won't use his teammates. Ultimately, it sounds like your DM has no control over his own campaign. There are controls for the persuasive as well as the overpowerful wizard. Anybody trying to fight you guys that has half a brain will either overwhlem you with numbers or use things he can't control. If he is so memorizing, the enemies will target him first, especially if their comrades are starting to act funny. If he gets a demon cohort, his reputation will plummet even further and he will mistrusted everwhere he goes. The Leadership feat is up to the DM. He can disallow it if he thinks it will overwhelm the game. And yes, having a demon cohort at level 14 is overwhelming. Especially with MR. I THINK I'LL SUGGEST MY WAY TO FORTUNE AND POWER. I don't see how you guys can be having any fun with this guy. Either force him to selectively use his powers and only for the good of the group, or you'll take him down. HARD. 'nuff said.
boredgremlin 04-22-05, 03:46 AM	Gotta agree here. If i was traveling with a guy, trusting him with my life and with the lives of my good friends. And he used magic to control me and steal my equipment? First time he went to bed i would cut his throat. Thats a fair player solution. Especially if you have neutral or evil characters. Even good guys would tell him to take a walk. And lawful good guys would probably turn him in to authorities if he has been abusing this power. Also suggestion really isnt that great a power. Sure you might with good wording be able to get a NPC to give you something or tell you something. No way you could make him commit suicide. Charm person wont do that so suggestion shouldnt. Even dominate person gives a second save against something like that and its a way higher level spell then suggestion. Then there are all those people he ****** off sending assassins, posse's and mercenaries against him. Eventually he is gonna make someone with money angry and they are gonna get a wizard to either send a ton of undead and constructs against him or protect the goons with mind control spells. As a DM i would teach this character but quick. Last thing you want to do is make this many people this angry and leave them alive to take vengeance. There are many ways to teach this guy a lesson.
mermin_8403 04-22-05, 10:26 AM	the suggestion ability doesn't require uses of bardic music, other than the original fascinate. In the text of fascinate, it says that you can use suggestion on a fascinated creature once/round. The DC won't be as good as the fascinate DC, but he's got like 14 tries there. And it specifically says that suggestion in this way doesn't use a bardic music use. I'm wondering how he got his Cha to 36 also. Is he some strange race, or is your DM in the habit of giving out nameless stat bonuses (which would be a big problem). Anyway, none of what he's done seems to be out of line with a bard's abilities. You can use suggestion to, for example, tell the fighter to take off his armor and go to sleep. Then you can walk up to him and coup de grace him. Diplomacy, especially with a bonus like that (and honestly, that's not all that good a bonus to diplomacy, he should take a level of warlock and take the ability that gives +6, or do something else to up his bonus), can make foes not just friendly, but helpful. The description of that says that they're willing to make sacrifices to aid you. And while he did probably get that rapier from you fair and square, that's no reason you can't get it back. He should be willing to part with it when you point out that you can better assist and defend him with it than without it. He should be too busy using his bardic music abilities to be fighting most of the time anyway.
Votan 04-22-05, 12:37 PM	the suggestion ability doesn't require uses of bardic music, other than the original fascinate. In the text of fascinate, it says that you can use suggestion on a fascinated creature once/round. The DC won't be as good as the fascinate DC, but he's got like 14 tries there. And it specifically says that suggestion in this way doesn't use a bardic music use. Yes, but the characters with spellcraft will be able to figure out that he used a "magical" effect on them (fascination via bardic music). Using mind control magic on fellow party members is a quick way to get knifed (even in a good party this is a deadly act). Sure, he could try to use it to killo the other party members but if they save and etect the use of it then lethal responses are completely rational. Okay, LGs might "arrest him" if they could figure out a way from him to have a trial where he could not use his abilities to charm the judge and jury.
Kynn Elfson 04-22-05, 10:27 PM	Okay, assuming that your dm doesnt school that fool somethin fierce, heres a little trick I like to use on players abusing other players, especially when faced with thievery of said players tight weaponry........ ** "Garr, there be orks!!" the fighter-type growled. "Huzzah!! Onwards chums, to battle!!" The sneaky bastard bard pulls out his lute and starts singing.........suddenly a lightning bolt smokes him in the face!! "huh....so thats what that does...." replies the befuddled Rouge with his Wand of Lvl 20 Lightning Bolt, "meh he was a shmuck, didn't much care for him anyways! Hey look, lets go kill those orks!!" ** :devil: a boo yeah, yes?
JMD999 04-22-05, 10:53 PM	on another note, you know he can only use 2 rings at any given time. So the several that he has could not all be used at once.....
crazymonkdude 04-22-05, 11:02 PM	I ask again Titan, how did he get a 36 in Cha? 'Cause inquiring minds want to know.....
epifreak 04-22-05, 11:47 PM	@ Crazymonkdude I dunno, I think what he's doing is quite different from a rogue stealing from the party in the middle of the night. There is one key difference here, if the rogue is smart and stashes the loot, the party will probably never find out. This situation, on the other hand, shouldn't even require spellcraft to stop. Under this, you saw him do something arcane; you have no idea what, but he did something. Then, immediately, you felt compelled to do what he said. Something would seem fishy, even to a character with no arcane knowledge whatsoever.
boredgremlin 04-23-05, 03:23 AM	You also have to figure something else. This bard is pretty high level. His companions must be too. So how many spells of this kind have the seen by now? Not even counting all the times he does it to bad guys. This would take most characters about 2 seconds to figure out why the bard suddenly has thier sword that he kept saying he wanted. That bard defineately better watch his butt i would say. And where is the DM? And why is he allowing the bard to run around using magic to steal from the rest of the party? This is the sort of thing the DM is supposed to stop.
Titan W 04-23-05, 09:07 AM	okay.. our DM gave out nameless bonouses for wish... he took 3 rihgs of wish from the shop keeper, and has an annoying habbit of using alter memory. He then sold back the rings later for other items, and repeated the process (So he used wish to get the extra stat bonuses.) He gets the person alone then uses alter memory so noone knows that they didn't give it freely out of the influence of a spell... Our DM allows EVERYTHING, (He allowed negative spell level metamagic, and 2nd edition psionics in a 3.5 game need I say more?) The campaign also started at level 10, and we gained levels way too fast... so after session 1 we gained 2 levels, this was taking place after only 2 sessions...
Nephlite 04-23-05, 09:30 AM	okay.. our DM gave out nameless bonouses for wish... he took 3 rihgs of wish from the shop keeper, and has an annoying habbit of using alter memory. He then sold back the rings later for other items, and repeated the process (So he used wish to get the extra stat bonuses.) He gets the person alone then uses alter memory so noone knows that they didn't give it freely out of the influence of a spell... Our DM allows EVERYTHING, (He allowed negative spell level metamagic, and 2nd edition psionics in a 3.5 game need I say more?) The campaign also started at level 10, and we gained levels way too fast... so after session 1 we gained 2 levels, this was taking place after only 2 sessions... Yeah Alter Memory rules! Negative spel levl metamagic...? Explain...
Votan 04-23-05, 10:33 AM	You also have to figure something else. This bard is pretty high level. His companions must be too. So how many spells of this kind have the seen by now? Not even counting all the times he does it to bad guys. This would take most characters about 2 seconds to figure out why the bard suddenly has thier sword that he kept saying he wanted. That bard defineately better watch his butt i would say. And where is the DM? And why is he allowing the bard to run around using magic to steal from the rest of the party? This is the sort of thing the DM is supposed to stop. There is a feat in Complete Adventurer called subsonics. Without it, it is obvious who the bard is and that he is using a song. Sooner or later somebody will make their will save. That will be a very bad day for the bard . . .
crazymonkdude 04-23-05, 10:24 PM	epifreak- what I meant was as far as party dynamics are concerned, bards and enchanters and other charisma-based characters abusing their charms and rogues and thieves abusing their stealthy skills are exactly the same thing. Given the fact that most classes don't have spot, listen and sense motive as class skills, these characters can easily abuse their powers and use them against their fellow players with impunity. Titan W- that is too bad about your DM. nameless bonuses are just asking for EPIC stats before you reach EPIC status. And as my signature says I hate EPIC level play. Once you get to that level of power, anything goes. Fighting Gods, Genocide, Dominating Civilizations, Planar Invasions, etc. Go back to what I said earlier. If the DM doesn't control this guy, you guys have to. He has been STEALING from you. Not only in the items he has been taking from you but the stuff he has been taking from everyone else. Stealing rings of wishes and then selling them back to the same guy? And the DM didn't bust him for it? Anybody selling a ring of three wishes would have the resources to track the person who "drained" their rings, magical resources or otherwise. And why is anyone selling a ring of three wishes in the first place? O.K. O.K. Enough about the poor control of the DM. Now you have a manipulative S.O.B. with an unbelievable charisma and a very good strategy. Has he been altering your character's memory as well? If so, he is a monster. In fact, despite the fact that he is in your party, HE is the BBG. The DM has created a BBG that is incredibly difficult to defeat because he is being played by a fellow player. Your new objective is to defeat this BBG, at any cost. Why? Because you can't be having any fun while the Bard Monster is running rampant all over the game. But you can't let the DM know that this is your new objective. Because just like a powerful favorite NPC of his, the DM will seek to thwart you at every end. If your character notices the way the Bard has been manipulating other people, he may suspect that he is doing this to you. Does he remember all the stuff he "gave" to the Bard? Maybe he didn't really give it to him. Now the plotting begins. Quietly, while his character is asleep, wake one of the other party members and notify them. Do so quietly and at least 20ft away from where the bard is sleeping. (so he can't hear you and wake up) Then coupe de grace him. You heard me. After you kill him, ask your coddling DM, "How many XPs do I get for him?" Just like you would if he was any other monster. Yes, you will be possibly be destroying the entire game, but once again, are you going to continue to live with the abuse or are you going to do something about it? I would do something about it.
crazymonkdude 04-23-05, 11:26 PM	After posting my "bust a cap in that fool" post, I realized that wasn't your original question. Yes, it is broken to have that kind of power at level 14. This is due to the fact that your DM has opened the door to abuse. Wishes do not give unnamed bonuses. It says so in the PHB, DMG, and the SRD. Also, how is he casting a quickened suggestion spell? He is a bard. No Quicken Spell. Or is he using a metamagic rod? Or is this that Instant Metamagic stuff from Complete Arcane? Or is your DM home-ruling more stuff? Also any wizard selling rings of wishes would be immune to a simple suggestion type effect or modify memory spell. Not busting him for stealing powerful magical items from NPCs has turned an interesting character concept into a game-dominating monster. Bards can be pretty powerful in roleplaying situations and have some nice spells to boost. Imagine a fighter with 36 STR. That's stronger than a cloud giant which the MM and Savage Species consider an unplayable character (ECL too high). Or a wizard with 36 Int. DCs in the mid-20s for all spells. And that's without spell focus or any of the other DC enhancing feats or PRC class abilities. My point is this: ANY CLASS WITH A PRIMARY ABILITY SCORE IN THE 30s WHILE STILL UNDER LEVEL 20 WILL DOMINATE THEIR GAME. The succubus cohort is just an example of this. Controling an demon with all its powers all the time is just plain abusive. Why does this bard guy keep you guys around anyway?
boredgremlin 04-23-05, 11:32 PM	No kidding. Murder the bard. He has it coming. Sounds like your DM probably wont even say anything about it if he lets this guy steal from other characters. By the way, are they good freinds outside of the game? Cause this could also be a case of favoritism run rampant.
Thorak 04-24-05, 12:27 AM	A caveat to what I am about to say; if anyone does this in an actual game, you have my full encouragement to whing cheetos at his head for being an arse. I consider this as unfriendly a thing for a PC to do to other PCs as rogues stealing from them for the heck of it, or random killing in your sleep, or other equally ridiculous things. Beyond that, welcome to why the Bard is a freaking awesome class, despite it's detractors claiming otherwise. Fascinate/Suggestion is ungodly powerful. What you don't realize is that the Suggestions are not limited. Well, technically there's a limit on how many creatures you can Fascinate and for how long, but while they're Fascinated, you can make a Suggestion once/round. 18-20 Suggestions a day? For a 14th level Bard, that's barely scratching the surface; 2 of his at least 14 Bardic Music uses can give him up to 28 right there. His Perform mod isn't even all that bad. His Charisma's overly high, but not by too much. Start with an 18, boost it 3 times by level 14 to 21, get a +6 Charisma cloak to 27. Let's work with that; that gives a +8 Cha mod. And he's got a maxxed out skill? 17 ranks. total Perform; 25. Only 4 points lower, and he's not even using a masterwork instrument (+2 to perform checks). So come on guys, it's a wee bit too high, but it's a +2 difference from what would be entirely reasonable. Fascinate is intended to be nearly impossible to save against, that's why the DC is a Perform check rather than a more typical spell save dynamic. I don't have any idea how he's Quickening bardic Suggestions, since they're not spells and why waste a spell slot on something you can do hundreds of times a day without a spell? Even so, considering the enemy stands there and drools while you hit them with, at his level, 14 Suggestions, there's really little need for them to be Quickened.
crazymonkdude 04-24-05, 01:03 AM	You know, Thorak is probably right. THe problem isn't the suggestion or fascinate power itself, it is what Titan's DM has allowed this bard to get away with. Most bards can suggest as many times as Thorak says, but each suggestion is limited in its scope. I have never heard of such abuse. Not in our games. Stealing from shop keepers? Acquiring expensive magical items with one use of his bardic music ability? Suffering no recriminations for it? Stealing from fellow PCs? Suffering no recriminations for that, either? No way. In my group, a guy like that would get knifed in his sleep and buried in the ditch somewhere along the road and let the ravens pluck at his eyes. The way you guys are using suggestion, you would think it was dominate person or geas. It is a third level spell. I think the reason they gave it to the bard was to make them even more charming than they are already. Remember, the bard can't fight very well, he can't cast very well, he can't disable traps very well. The only thing he does really well is communicate and charm people, either by music or magic. But suggestion is not perfect. Even with modify memory. If the DM was playing by the rules, this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Eventually, this guy would be dealt with. But instead, he becomes untouchable.
epifreak 04-24-05, 02:44 PM	Hmmm.... if one of you is a rogue, you should have sense motive bumped up to max (or close to it). Next time he steals from you, just ask him where he got that kickass sword, then sense motive him. He may have a very high bluff check, but unless he is extremely lucky, he'll fail eventually.
Purkake 04-24-05, 03:20 PM	At thet high level you should really get mind blank. And YES, something is wrong the player is an ass and the DM doesn't do anything - sounds like you should find a new group or DM.
Thorak 04-24-05, 03:33 PM	You know, Thorak is probably right. THe problem isn't the suggestion or fascinate power itself, it is what Titan's DM has allowed this bard to get away with. Most bards can suggest as many times as Thorak says, but each suggestion is limited in its scope. I have never heard of such abuse. Not in our games. Stealing from shop keepers? Acquiring expensive magical items with one use of his bardic music ability? Suffering no recriminations for it? Stealing from fellow PCs? Suffering no recriminations for that, either? No way. In my group, a guy like that would get knifed in his sleep and buried in the ditch somewhere along the road and let the ravens pluck at his eyes. The way you guys are using suggestion, you would think it was dominate person or geas. It is a third level spell. I think the reason they gave it to the bard was to make them even more charming than they are already. Remember, the bard can't fight very well, he can't cast very well, he can't disable traps very well. The only thing he does really well is communicate and charm people, either by music or magic. But suggestion is not perfect. Even with modify memory. If the DM was playing by the rules, this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Eventually, this guy would be dealt with. But instead, he becomes untouchable. On some levels, I disagree. Suggestion is ungodly powerful. You just need to make the Suggestion seem reasonable. Heck, one of the examples in the PHB is "That's not a pool of acid, that's water, why don't you take a dip?" I see no reason why you couldn't use it to get free stuff from shopkeeps. Of course, it has a duration, hours per level. You better never go back after it's worn off. They'll have figured it out. And, frankly, if someone can run a shop that sells magical items, I would assume they're capable of defending themselves magically. Anti-magic field in the shop, say. I personally wouldn't run a bard like this, because it's risky in the long run and my DM has a saner head on his shoulders, but it's certainly possible.
crazymonkdude 04-24-05, 04:25 PM	Exactly my point. It is not whether or not you can because obviously by the rules you can, but you should have to the suffer the consequences. Universal law- the law of cause and effect. When this law is broken, things get messed up real fast. The suggestion power of the bard can come in handy at the right time. Abusing it in this way is asking for a punch in the face. But I forgot, you guys are POWERGAMERS. This is why you play. To dominate everything and everyone who gets in your way. Well, congradulations, you've found another way. And that foolish DM of yours, I am sure your rogue/wizard will find a way to be equally as abusive. Good luck.
Titan W 04-24-05, 05:17 PM	Our game has recently gotten more complicated.... the Sorc/Wis has, due to a witch (Dmg created class that's in there somewhere, about pg. 140-160 i think) has taken her in as an assistant, and has recently become an antagonist, so I hve a druid/shadowdancer/rogue/exemplar/mountainwalker/scout as my new character (About those Prc abuseres... I have no comment), but the bard is now traveling wiht his druid... (Oi... our DM is in desperate need of help, and he turned to the "Oh that's a cool spell sure you cna have it" guy... to a level 1 version of wish type thing... we're doomed) At any rate, thank you for hte help, I think that the antagonist is going to come back for her sword soon... and take it by any means nessecary... (At least with my druid i got a ring of mind blank constant effect) Thanks for the advice...