Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catzo 10-28-05, 10:20 AM	For those of you who followed the Ranger: Without magic! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=525345) thread I can say that this is the same idea, just with the Bard instead. So the goal is to take away the magic of the bard and not compensate with magical abilities instead. So new abilities that enforces the "bard" aspect of him. However that being said I think I would like to keep his music. Even though some of it has a strong magical feeling to it, I think that you could call it (ex) abilities instead of (sp) without bending it too much. However losing his spells would will make him "less powerfull" so something should, imo, be given for a compensation on this. Unlike the Ranger I think the Bard could be made a better fighter and not lose his "bardic feel". An Idea is to give him AC bonus from int as long as he does only wear light armour. I'm not sure if this would compensate enough. Upping his HD to d8 might however be a bit too much I think.
TheWinterBard 10-28-05, 10:30 AM	I think that would work. I'm working on a bardic-music based class as we speak; giving more combat flavor would probably be the best way to compensate for weaker spells (due to therre being none :) ). Umm... yeh. Can't type much now as I'm in school but I'll get back to you if I have more thoughts.
Elkas Saralonde 10-28-05, 10:41 AM	Less combat-oriented, but the bard should be able to get more out of his bardic music. Perhaps get something like Szatany's classes, with a bucketload of special abilities you can choose from to customise your bard. In fact, it'd be a good idea to check Szatany's bard out, but I don't have the link on hand.
YanYaoMo 10-28-05, 12:27 PM	I think making the Bard more martial is a good idea personaly. I mean there have been many Warrior Poets in history. The Skalds from Scandinavia, Mamluks from the Middle-East and so forth were all poetic people who were also very martial.
Nyferto 10-28-05, 12:33 PM	Next week... The Fighter with Magic This week... The Bard without Magic, a.k.a. the CW Swashbuckler. Seems you need to get the CW and then come back. Someone will probably suggest to boost the Swashbuckler.
catzo 10-28-05, 01:02 PM	...In fact, it'd be a good idea to check Szatany's bard out... Actually Szatany's bard was the first I went too, but it still have magic and spell-like abilities. Next week... The Fighter with Magic This week... The Bard without Magic, a.k.a. the CW Swashbuckler. Seems you need to get the CW and then come back. Someone will probably suggest to boost the Swashbuckler. Hehehe. Actually I do have the CW, Well at least I borrowed it from a friend (So havn't had the time to read all of it). But The Swashbuckler does not have the skills of the bard, niether does it has the music. One could then argue for the Rogue but then you would get backstab and trapthingies. Thats why I go for the bard, but without magic. ;)
Shadowfax7 10-28-05, 01:44 PM	There was just another thread on what to replace spellcasting with for a spell-less Bard variant. It had some good ideas besides what I will suggest. IMC I grant a Bard bonus feats at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th) for a total of 6 bonus feats. However, IMO this is still a little weak, but 7 bonus feats is a too much and starts infringing on the Fighter. BTW, I also used the 3.5 Class Construction System calculator to balance this variant class and as per that system it's slightly less powerful than the core Bard.
Nephlite 10-28-05, 02:11 PM	I have a few: 1) Skald ------- General Information: This Nordic bard is also a warrior of great strength, skill and virtue. His songs are inspiring sagas of battle and valor, and the skald devotes his life to those pursuits. Skald Alignment : Any non-lawful. Hit Die : d6. Class Skills The Skald’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int)), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Any 2 Knowledge (skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level : (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level : 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Skald ––—— Spells per Day ——–— Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +2 skaldic music, skaldic knowledge, countersong, Battle Song 2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Weapon Expertise 3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 4th +3 +1 +4 +4 5th +3 +1 +4 +4 6th +4 +2 +5 +5 7th +5 +2 +5 +5 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Improved Battle Song 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Greater Battle Song 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Superior Battle Song Class Features All of the following are class features of the Skald. Weapon and Armor Proficiency : A Skald is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, scimitar, and whip. Skalds are proficient with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields). Bardic Knowledge : A Skald may make a special skaldic knowledge check with a bonus equal to 1 + his ½ Skald level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the skald has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful skaldic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A skald may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. DC Type of Knowledge 10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population. 20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends. 25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by. 30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don't understand the significance of the knowledge. Skalddic Music : Once per day per skald level, a skald can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of skaldic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks. Starting a skaldic music effect is a standard action. Some skaldic music abilities require concentration, which means the Skald must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using skaldic music that doesn't require concentration, a Skald cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf Skald has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Countersong (Su): A skald with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components). Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the skald (including the skald himself ) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the Skald’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a non-instantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the skald’s Perform check result for the save. Countersong has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The skald may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds. Battle Song (Su): Skald with 4 ranks in songs can sing songs + sagas of battle and valor. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the Skald sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the skald sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. This gives allies +2 to hit, +2 to damage and + NA 2 to AC. 10th, Gives allies +3 to hit, +3 to damage, +3 NA to AC, and immunity to fear. 15th, Gives allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, +4 NA to AC, and immunity to fear and stun. 20th, Gives allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, +4 NA to AC, and immunity to fear, stun, and confusion. Weapon Expertise (Ex): At Level 2, a Skald gains +1 to hit and damage with any Skald weapon. No magic: just songs, and he gets a bonus to hit/damage. and secondly, Nature Bard: no magic spells Nature Bards are rare bard types that display a special link to plants and the mysterious world of the animals. NATURE BARD Alignment: Any nonlawful. Hit Die: d6. Class Skills The bard's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Table: The Nature Bard Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic music, countersong, fascinate, Inspire courage +1 2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Wild Empathy 3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Inspire competence 4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Animal Companion 5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Wild shape (1/day) 6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Wild shape (2/day), Suggestion 7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Wild shape (3/day) 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Wild shape (Large), Inspire courage +2 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Inspire greatness 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Wild shape (4/day) 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Wild shape (Tiny) 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Wild shape (plant), Song of freedom 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Wild shape (5/day), Inspire courage +3 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Inspire heroics 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Wild shape (6/day), Mass suggestion 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Inspire courage +4 Class Features All of the following are class features of the bard. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the sap, scimitar, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below). Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. DC Type of Knowledge 10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population. 20 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends. 25 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by. 30 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don't understand the significance of the knowledge. Bardic Music: Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks. Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Countersong (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components). Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself ) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a non-instantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard's Perform check result for the save. Countersong has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The bard may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds. Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature's Will save against the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The bard must also be able to see the ally. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear the bard's music. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as the bard concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability. Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard's concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn't count against a bard's daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard's level + bard's Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability. Inspire Greatness (Su): A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting him or her extra fighting capability. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 9th, he can target one additional ally with a single use of this ability (two at 12th level, three at 15th, four at 18th). To inspire greatness, a bard must sing and an ally must hear him sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability. Song of Freedom (Sp): A bard of 12th level or higher with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell (caster level equals the character's bard level). Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music, and it functions on a single target within 30 feet. A bard can't use song of freedom on himself. Inspire Heroics (Su): A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, he can inspire heroics in one additional creature. To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round. A creature so inspired gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability. Mass Suggestion (Sp): This ability functions like suggestion, above, except that a bard of 18th level or higher with 21 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make the suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated (see above). Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability. Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a Bard gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the Bard's list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the Bard on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. A Bard may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his Bard level. Like a druid, a Bard cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st. Wild Empathy (Ex): A Bard at Level 2 can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The bard rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the bard and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A bard can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check. Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Nature Bard may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Bard leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a Bard gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. A Bard loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.) A bard can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Bard. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form's Hit Dice can't exceed the character's Bard level. At 12th level, a Bard becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A Bard can't use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn't a creature.) Ex-Bards A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities. He gets a Animal Companion (like a Ranger), Wild Shape like a Druid, and Wild Empathy. As well as Bard songs.
Robert 22 10-28-05, 02:27 PM	For those of you who followed the Ranger: Without magic! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=525345) thread I can say that this is the same idea, just with the Bard instead. So the goal is to take away the magic of the bard and not compensate with magical abilities instead. So new abilities that enforces the "bard" aspect of him. Knowledge. Knowledge is power. And the Bard class clearly has a lot of Knowledge. Special abilities like: Archaic Knowledge: In a dungeon, get to a fork, which way to the minotaur lair? The bard knows. A friend in every town: The bard just knows people. Double the wealth limit for what he can buy, gets free healing at the temple, etc. The Bards flavour is partly about he interacts with other humanoids, so work on that element and give him abilities that interact with other humanoids. Ideally, I would like to see a set of core classes who all have completely unique abilities with minimum overlap - so if there was a way to make the Bard not look like a cross-classed Sorcerer/Rogue that would be great. Robert
Raiden Drake 10-28-05, 02:30 PM	maybe every four levels the bard can chose a figther feat or get +1d6 of sneak attack that way he would be truly a jack of all trades
catzo 10-28-05, 04:26 PM	IMC I grant a Bard bonus feats at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th) for a total of 6 bonus feats. What feats would you let him chose then? Fighter or Sneak attack like Raiden Drake suggests? Nephlite I think the Skald is quite cool, but not exactly what I'm looking for, I saw it in the Core class compendium before I posted here :) Btw. In danish a Bard is known as a Skjald. ;)
Shadowfax7 10-28-05, 07:24 PM	What feats would you let him chose then? Fighter or Sneak attack like Raiden Drake suggests? Any General feat. The purpose is to make the Bard even more versatile, yet not the best in anything (except musical abilities). The Rogue has the most skill points (with the Bard being 2nd, as well as the Ranger) and the Fighter has the most bonus feats (with the Bard now 2nd and the Rogue 3rd). Obviously Metamagic feats are out and IMC I also don't allow Bards to get Item Creation feats as it goes w/the flavor of a spell-less Bard. (Magical instruments can be made by anyone w/the Craft Wondrous Item feat). However, if you don't like that 2nd idea, then allow the bonus feats to be chosen from General feats and Item Creation feats. But don't limit it to Fighter-list feats since there are some very good Bardic Music feats in Complete Adventurer and Eberron Campaign Setting. IMO Sneak Attack doesn't belong to a Bard class . . . then be a Rogue.
Nephlite 10-28-05, 07:39 PM	What feats would you let him chose then? Fighter or Sneak attack like Raiden Drake suggests? Nephlite I think the Skald is quite cool, but not exactly what I'm looking for, I saw it in the Core class compendium before I posted here :) Btw. In danish a Bard is known as a Skjald. ;) Really, I based mine on the Skald in the video game Buldar's Gate on PC.(a second edition game). Took a lot of editing to make a 3.5 version for me. Battle song in the game gave full bonus at first level. Seemed much too strong so I lowered it into different levels of power.