Bard/Arcane Archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard/Arcane Archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shedeo
12-19-06, 11:18 AM Okay, this isn't really a new class or a great build or anything. This is just me asking for some advice. Normally, this would go over to the CharOp boards, but this isn't really about optimization- just advice.

Here's the problem. I'm currently in a campaign that's not very magic-item savy. We're all level 10, and there's,... Basically three magic weapons. I have a +1 Merciful Rapier, the rogue has a +1 Rapier of Speed, and the Ranger has a +2 Undead Bane Scimitar. That's all we've got when it comes to magic items. The DM plays the party wizard (I wanted that spot, but didn't get it because I joined to replace someone.) So, I was stuck being the bard.

Granted, it was a class I didn't think so highly of, but I can now say that I'm pleasantly surprised at how awesome it is. Funny thing is, its not really a party support class. If you ask me, that's a secondary feature. Its awesome because its even more versatile than the rogue, and that's what I like about it. The rest of the party are a Half-Orc Cleric, an Elven Rogue, a Human Fighter, a Human Wizard, a Half-Elf Ranger, and a Half-Elf Paladin. Granted, that's a lot of strength, but when we were a level 6 party, we were fighting CR 8 or so challenges.

Now onto the meat and potatoes of the problem.

As I said, we're kind of short on magic items. So my question is this. Would it be more beneficial to continue on as a Bard, or would it be better to bump into Arcane Archer? I have all of the prerequirements for the class (I made sure that I could go into the class if I wanted) but we've taken our semester break (finals are over, and we play at our college) so I've got a while to make my decision, which is why I came here to get opinions and thoughts on the matter. I like the psudo-magical abilities of the Arcane Archer, and we could certainly use some ranged support, but at the same time the Bard's skills and spells are rather tasty.

Thanks in advance.
CaoSlayer
12-19-06, 11:50 AM I would go better to warchanter (complete warrior) because synergies better your class.

AA it is usually a very bad prc because almost every special feature it is weaker than a feat or can be emulated with money or is just crap (like death arrow because it is a fixed save and so by the level you get it, creatures get an enought good fort save to avoid it).

AA only is worth because imbue arrow cheese that allows you to target spells on others that you shouldnt can, the typical one being antimagic field...
Bards have not area spells worth imbuing so is a wasted skill.

If you cant use splatbooks, keep pure bard cause with each level you get more uses for your useful spells like haste,blink or improved invisibility that are worth from level 1 to level 20.

Finally if you want to help to compensate the lack of magical items in the party, you can take item creation feats cause ever if you cant cast a certain spell, the cleric or wizard can and so you can have almost any magical item in the game, of course you loses xp but it is better to have you lose a little than the cleric or maybe the wizard, more on that, if you take create magical weapons and armor, the wizard create staffs and the cleric create wondrous item, between the three can create a broad amount of items sharing the sacrifice.
Puca
12-19-06, 11:56 AM Well, you seemed to like the versatility of the bard, and youre going to lose a lot of that going to Arcane Archer. Bardic Music, spell progression have to be given up, and you take a hit on your skill-points too.

For that, you get improved arrows, but the enhancement wont stack when you do manage to get a magic bow.

Imbue Arrow isnt as valuable to you as it (maybe) would be to other casters because you dont have that many great area spells. Are the other abilities of the Arcane Archer worth giving up everything else? If youre going to trade your singing and casting and skills to be a better archer, is this really the PrC you want?
Shedeo
12-19-06, 11:57 AM Alrighty, that's kinda what I needed to hear. The big draw to me for AA is the Imbue Arrow ability to add enhancement bonuses to my ranged attacks (since I primarily play the role of an archer.)

Anyway, the Bard is nice package, usually underestimated. And, unfortunately, I can't go Warchanter because the DM only allows stuff from Core. He says that he'll look something over from non-core material, but always says that its overpowered and won't allow it. Just how the Warmage is a class for those "who don't know how to play DnD" when his sorcerer build had a DEX/CON of 14/12 and only had Evoc spells. -_-;;

There's other problems, too. Firstly, we can find all the gold in the world, but it won't help us because the world has been taken over by people and for some reason Iron coins are the new currency. Don't ask me, I just play the game. It feels like LotR. We do nothing but travel and rely on rations and the Survival skill to keep us alive. That said, we can't actually buy magic items. Those three weapons are the only ones that we've got, which is why the AA seems so nice at the moment.
CaoSlayer
12-19-06, 12:02 PM The said at my edit, take item creation feats so you can get your own weapons with half the money.

umm, if iron coins are the actual currency, your wizard can exploit wall of iron and fabricate spell for hundred of iron coins in a single cast.
StevenO
12-19-06, 08:26 PM If your campain is that low on magic AND the DM will not let you create your own (even with the Magic Weapon Spells) then go for AA all the way. You probably should have started back at 9th level if you could.
Seerow
12-19-06, 08:31 PM Just get your Wizard party member to cast greater magic weapon. It totally usurps the entire point of the AA class.
Shedeo
12-21-06, 03:48 PM I thank you for all the good suggestions and opinions.

Now here's the ascended problem. The DM plays the Wizard, and the DM won't allow any kind of spell "abuse." That, and, just like his sorcerer, the only spells that he really prepares are the ones that deal damage. Sure, I could try talking to him, but I know the DM well enough that it won't work because then he'll feel "like he's not contributing."

Its just that, were I the wizard, I would have been churning out like there was no tomorrow (we automatically level up after each adventure. Yay no XP penalties) and we'd be properly equipped. But I couldn't. That said, I have no ranks in Craft: Weapon, but if I started dumping some skill points into it, would it be beneficial? Or would I not have the right spells to back it up?
Puca
12-21-06, 05:11 PM Craft: Weapon, but if I started dumping some skill points into it, would it be beneficial? Or would I not have the right spells to back it up?I think there is some confusion here. Craft (weapons) the skill doesnt allow you to make magic weapons. For that you need the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor. If you have the feat, you can buy the weapon already made and dont need any ranks in the skill to make it magical.

The enhancement bonuses you can add to weapons with the feat are based on caster-level, which means you could be as good at it as a wizard or cleric. But the additional enhancements, like Flaming or something, could be harder to add because of access to the right spells.
IdleAltruism
12-21-06, 05:27 PM If your DM thinks the complete series is cheese then show him some bard cheese. Look up the diplomacy skill and suggestion and show him what cheese is. Bards can be game breakers if you abuse your abilities, it just goes to show theres a way to make powerful combos out of everything(even core). DMs should never play characters unless your groups uses characters for missing people. Arcane Archer really isn't anything amazing till epic level and as a dip its better for something like wizard.
Shedeo
12-21-06, 06:51 PM No, I understand that Craft: Arms and Armor as a skill doesn't allow you to make magical weapons and armor. But you still need to be able to make the weapons and the armor in order for them to be magical in the first place.

And I've been able to prove his challenges less challenging than they're supposed to be on many occasions. Myself, the Wizard, and the party cleric managed to hold off four high-level drow wizards, four drow fighters of the same level, and an Ice Devil at level 6. Granted, it was mostly roleplaying stuff (we used a combination of several things, including a horn of minor blasting (only dealt 1d6 damage in a 15' cone) to deafen the Ice Devil and the wizards, then our wizard used Blindness (a nat 1 on its saving throw) to blind the ice devil, and the RPing came in that our cleric used Summon Swarm to summon some spiders which I held hostage with the horn.)

Anyways, if I took the magical weapon crafting route, I've just got this feeling that the DM would prettymuch make it a wasted feat slot. Its just one of those things that annoys me, I guess.
StevenO
12-22-06, 01:18 AM I just realized, there is nothing that prevents a bard from taking item creation feats and enchanting his own weapons.

Craft Magic Weapons and Armor feat only requires a Caster Level 5. A Bard gets a caster level each level so could take this feat at 6th level. You may not have access to the spells needed for some of the specials but you should have no trouble enchanting basic items with +1/3 caster levels. You only need to aquire a masterwork item to enchant and don't need to make that yourself. If the DM doesn't like you playing within his own set of rule maybe it is time to start looking for a new DM.
Votan
12-22-06, 01:56 AM I am a little unclear why Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment are not the solutions here (before something drastic like Arcane Archer). You do have a cleric, right?
CaoSlayer
12-22-06, 03:35 AM Before taking the feat, ask the DM if he is going to allow to use it that is give you time enough for crafting something or he is going to push you so creating will be imposible.

The DM must not encourage taking an useless feat.

--------

For creating weapons with more than a bonus to hit and damage, remember that others can provide you the spells required, wizards and clerics with a huge know spell list will make the feat awesome.

Also there are some cheap especial atributes, bane weapons just requires summon monster I.
Reversefigure4
12-22-06, 03:43 AM Why not take a single level in Arcane Archer? If you already meet all the pre-reqs, you really aren't having to give up much for it. That gives you permanently enhanced magic arrows (abiet only +1 ones), +1 BAB, 2 good save boosts - including Fort, your weak save, and some skill points you could put into non-Bard class skills that might be useful like Spot and Survival.

One level of AA, then you can go right back to taking Bard levels.
Puca
12-22-06, 11:34 AM But you still need to be able to make the weapons and the armor in order for them to be magical in the first place.No. They can be purchased then made magical.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shedeo 12-19-06, 11:18 AM	Okay, this isn't really a new class or a great build or anything. This is just me asking for some advice. Normally, this would go over to the CharOp boards, but this isn't really about optimization- just advice. Here's the problem. I'm currently in a campaign that's not very magic-item savy. We're all level 10, and there's,... Basically three magic weapons. I have a +1 Merciful Rapier, the rogue has a +1 Rapier of Speed, and the Ranger has a +2 Undead Bane Scimitar. That's all we've got when it comes to magic items. The DM plays the party wizard (I wanted that spot, but didn't get it because I joined to replace someone.) So, I was stuck being the bard. Granted, it was a class I didn't think so highly of, but I can now say that I'm pleasantly surprised at how awesome it is. Funny thing is, its not really a party support class. If you ask me, that's a secondary feature. Its awesome because its even more versatile than the rogue, and that's what I like about it. The rest of the party are a Half-Orc Cleric, an Elven Rogue, a Human Fighter, a Human Wizard, a Half-Elf Ranger, and a Half-Elf Paladin. Granted, that's a lot of strength, but when we were a level 6 party, we were fighting CR 8 or so challenges. Now onto the meat and potatoes of the problem. As I said, we're kind of short on magic items. So my question is this. Would it be more beneficial to continue on as a Bard, or would it be better to bump into Arcane Archer? I have all of the prerequirements for the class (I made sure that I could go into the class if I wanted) but we've taken our semester break (finals are over, and we play at our college) so I've got a while to make my decision, which is why I came here to get opinions and thoughts on the matter. I like the psudo-magical abilities of the Arcane Archer, and we could certainly use some ranged support, but at the same time the Bard's skills and spells are rather tasty. Thanks in advance.
CaoSlayer 12-19-06, 11:50 AM	I would go better to warchanter (complete warrior) because synergies better your class. AA it is usually a very bad prc because almost every special feature it is weaker than a feat or can be emulated with money or is just crap (like death arrow because it is a fixed save and so by the level you get it, creatures get an enought good fort save to avoid it). AA only is worth because imbue arrow cheese that allows you to target spells on others that you shouldnt can, the typical one being antimagic field... Bards have not area spells worth imbuing so is a wasted skill. If you cant use splatbooks, keep pure bard cause with each level you get more uses for your useful spells like haste,blink or improved invisibility that are worth from level 1 to level 20. Finally if you want to help to compensate the lack of magical items in the party, you can take item creation feats cause ever if you cant cast a certain spell, the cleric or wizard can and so you can have almost any magical item in the game, of course you loses xp but it is better to have you lose a little than the cleric or maybe the wizard, more on that, if you take create magical weapons and armor, the wizard create staffs and the cleric create wondrous item, between the three can create a broad amount of items sharing the sacrifice.
Puca 12-19-06, 11:56 AM	Well, you seemed to like the versatility of the bard, and youre going to lose a lot of that going to Arcane Archer. Bardic Music, spell progression have to be given up, and you take a hit on your skill-points too. For that, you get improved arrows, but the enhancement wont stack when you do manage to get a magic bow. Imbue Arrow isnt as valuable to you as it (maybe) would be to other casters because you dont have that many great area spells. Are the other abilities of the Arcane Archer worth giving up everything else? If youre going to trade your singing and casting and skills to be a better archer, is this really the PrC you want?
Shedeo 12-19-06, 11:57 AM	Alrighty, that's kinda what I needed to hear. The big draw to me for AA is the Imbue Arrow ability to add enhancement bonuses to my ranged attacks (since I primarily play the role of an archer.) Anyway, the Bard is nice package, usually underestimated. And, unfortunately, I can't go Warchanter because the DM only allows stuff from Core. He says that he'll look something over from non-core material, but always says that its overpowered and won't allow it. Just how the Warmage is a class for those "who don't know how to play DnD" when his sorcerer build had a DEX/CON of 14/12 and only had Evoc spells. -_-;; There's other problems, too. Firstly, we can find all the gold in the world, but it won't help us because the world has been taken over by people and for some reason Iron coins are the new currency. Don't ask me, I just play the game. It feels like LotR. We do nothing but travel and rely on rations and the Survival skill to keep us alive. That said, we can't actually buy magic items. Those three weapons are the only ones that we've got, which is why the AA seems so nice at the moment.
CaoSlayer 12-19-06, 12:02 PM	The said at my edit, take item creation feats so you can get your own weapons with half the money. umm, if iron coins are the actual currency, your wizard can exploit wall of iron and fabricate spell for hundred of iron coins in a single cast.
StevenO 12-19-06, 08:26 PM	If your campain is that low on magic AND the DM will not let you create your own (even with the Magic Weapon Spells) then go for AA all the way. You probably should have started back at 9th level if you could.
Seerow 12-19-06, 08:31 PM	Just get your Wizard party member to cast greater magic weapon. It totally usurps the entire point of the AA class.
Shedeo 12-21-06, 03:48 PM	I thank you for all the good suggestions and opinions. Now here's the ascended problem. The DM plays the Wizard, and the DM won't allow any kind of spell "abuse." That, and, just like his sorcerer, the only spells that he really prepares are the ones that deal damage. Sure, I could try talking to him, but I know the DM well enough that it won't work because then he'll feel "like he's not contributing." Its just that, were I the wizard, I would have been churning out like there was no tomorrow (we automatically level up after each adventure. Yay no XP penalties) and we'd be properly equipped. But I couldn't. That said, I have no ranks in Craft: Weapon, but if I started dumping some skill points into it, would it be beneficial? Or would I not have the right spells to back it up?
Puca 12-21-06, 05:11 PM	Craft: Weapon, but if I started dumping some skill points into it, would it be beneficial? Or would I not have the right spells to back it up?I think there is some confusion here. Craft (weapons) the skill doesnt allow you to make magic weapons. For that you need the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor. If you have the feat, you can buy the weapon already made and dont need any ranks in the skill to make it magical. The enhancement bonuses you can add to weapons with the feat are based on caster-level, which means you could be as good at it as a wizard or cleric. But the additional enhancements, like Flaming or something, could be harder to add because of access to the right spells.
IdleAltruism 12-21-06, 05:27 PM	If your DM thinks the complete series is cheese then show him some bard cheese. Look up the diplomacy skill and suggestion and show him what cheese is. Bards can be game breakers if you abuse your abilities, it just goes to show theres a way to make powerful combos out of everything(even core). DMs should never play characters unless your groups uses characters for missing people. Arcane Archer really isn't anything amazing till epic level and as a dip its better for something like wizard.
Shedeo 12-21-06, 06:51 PM	No, I understand that Craft: Arms and Armor as a skill doesn't allow you to make magical weapons and armor. But you still need to be able to make the weapons and the armor in order for them to be magical in the first place. And I've been able to prove his challenges less challenging than they're supposed to be on many occasions. Myself, the Wizard, and the party cleric managed to hold off four high-level drow wizards, four drow fighters of the same level, and an Ice Devil at level 6. Granted, it was mostly roleplaying stuff (we used a combination of several things, including a horn of minor blasting (only dealt 1d6 damage in a 15' cone) to deafen the Ice Devil and the wizards, then our wizard used Blindness (a nat 1 on its saving throw) to blind the ice devil, and the RPing came in that our cleric used Summon Swarm to summon some spiders which I held hostage with the horn.) Anyways, if I took the magical weapon crafting route, I've just got this feeling that the DM would prettymuch make it a wasted feat slot. Its just one of those things that annoys me, I guess.
StevenO 12-22-06, 01:18 AM	I just realized, there is nothing that prevents a bard from taking item creation feats and enchanting his own weapons. Craft Magic Weapons and Armor feat only requires a Caster Level 5. A Bard gets a caster level each level so could take this feat at 6th level. You may not have access to the spells needed for some of the specials but you should have no trouble enchanting basic items with +1/3 caster levels. You only need to aquire a masterwork item to enchant and don't need to make that yourself. If the DM doesn't like you playing within his own set of rule maybe it is time to start looking for a new DM.
Votan 12-22-06, 01:56 AM	I am a little unclear why Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment are not the solutions here (before something drastic like Arcane Archer). You do have a cleric, right?
CaoSlayer 12-22-06, 03:35 AM	Before taking the feat, ask the DM if he is going to allow to use it that is give you time enough for crafting something or he is going to push you so creating will be imposible. The DM must not encourage taking an useless feat. -------- For creating weapons with more than a bonus to hit and damage, remember that others can provide you the spells required, wizards and clerics with a huge know spell list will make the feat awesome. Also there are some cheap especial atributes, bane weapons just requires summon monster I.
Reversefigure4 12-22-06, 03:43 AM	Why not take a single level in Arcane Archer? If you already meet all the pre-reqs, you really aren't having to give up much for it. That gives you permanently enhanced magic arrows (abiet only +1 ones), +1 BAB, 2 good save boosts - including Fort, your weak save, and some skill points you could put into non-Bard class skills that might be useful like Spot and Survival. One level of AA, then you can go right back to taking Bard levels.
Puca 12-22-06, 11:34 AM	But you still need to be able to make the weapons and the armor in order for them to be magical in the first place.No. They can be purchased then made magical.