Bardic Knowledge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Knowledge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlaineTog
10-29-03, 12:34 AM I'm a little fuzzy on the concept of "Bardic Knowledge." I realize you can use it for any knowledge check, but if you do, are you barred from using further checks? Like, if i do a bardic Knowledge check on a sword we just found, and I fail, can I still use a Knowledge: Arcana check? On the other side of the die, if I Succeed, do I know everything about the sword, or do I just get the general idea of it's function and have to do a Knowledge: Arcana check anyway? Thanks.
Pystian
10-29-03, 06:07 AM I don't think you could use a Bardic Knowledge check on a sword you just found unless you already knew something basic about it, like it belonged to the Sir Mortimer the Not-to-Shabby or it's called the Giant's Toothpick or something.

Unless your DM has some funky new rules (and hey, that's half the game), then you probably couldn't even use a Knowledge: Arcana check.

Bardic Knowledge is supposed to represent the bard's knowledge of stories and history. You can't use it for just any old Knowledge check (though I feel it shares a lot of territory with History, Local, and Royalty and Nobility).

The good news is that making a Bardic Knowledge check doesn't prevent you from making any other kind of Knowledge check.
ManTimeForgot
10-29-03, 06:20 AM Actually Pystian Bardic knowledge can be used on any type of knowledge period.

Bardic knowledge is a backup knowledge check whenever the bard needs it. Depending on what DC you are shooting for it can duplicate any of the effects of any knowledge skill.

One does not need rudimentary knowledge of anything in order to perform a knowledge check, the same applies to bardic knowledge.

Bardic Knowledge = all knowledge skills rolled into a ball and given to the bard for free every level.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Tedo
10-29-03, 02:03 PM Originally posted by ManTimeForgot
Actually Pystian Bardic knowledge can be used on any type of knowledge period.
That's an interesting house rule.

Here's the core rule (from the 3.5 SRD):

'Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.'
Ithilorien
10-29-03, 05:13 PM Originally posted by Tedo
That's an interesting house rule.

Here's the core rule (from the 3.5 SRD):

'Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.'

It's debatable.

I'd say the Planes (including the Prime) and dungeons are a noteworthy place, thus a bard could have a Bardic Knowledge check for Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), and Knowledge (nature), respectively.

Royals and Nobility are certainly notable people, so a bard has Knowledge (nobility) also.

The gods also fall under the category of "notable people", so perhaps they can use Bardic Knowledge (religion), too.

Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (history) are a given, and might frequently overlap with other Knowledges.

Knowledge (arcana) checks to identify magic items or particular wizards also fall under the description of Bardic Knowledge.

Ergo, it can be somewhat easy to catch-all say that Bardic Knowledge may emulate any Knowledge skill.
Tedo
10-29-03, 07:15 PM Originally posted by Ithilorien
It's debatable.
No it's not.

Not by any stretch of the imagination could the above description be construed as the bardic knowledge check should be allowed to take the place of all knowledge checks.

If that was the intention it would have said so.

Obviuosly, there will be some overlapping of what bardic knowledge can provide information about (which specifically is restricted to 'notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places'), such as your Royalty & Nobility example.

But saying that noteworthy people covers deities (unles you have a custom pantheon in which your gods actually are people), or that noteworthy places covers dungeons in a way that makes you knowledgeable in how to survive in one, is just plain wrong.

If what you said was true, 5 ranks in Knowledge(history) would give you a +2 synergy bonus to your bardic knowledge check when substituitng it for... Knowledge(history), for instance?
BlaineTog
10-29-03, 07:23 PM That makes sense. I mean, the Bard DOES know a little bit about everything, so it's makes sense that you could use Bardic Knowledge on anything.

Actually, I've discovered something:

Putting Skill points as a bard into anythig accept noiwledge: History is just plain silly. And this is why:

At 1st level, max ranks= 4. Max BK "ranks" (if you will)=1.
A Second level, however, it's a little bit differnet.
Max ranks=5. Max ranks BK=2.

Notice something? 5 ranks in Knowledge: History gives you a +2 synergy bonus to BK. So, 5 ranks in K:H and you'r Bardic Knowlede is only 1 rank lower than any other Knowledge skill that you can use.

And it's free.

Plus, this holds tru at high levels. Every time you go up a level, your max ranks goes uop by 1, but so does your BK, and you didn't even have to spend a skill point on it.

By the time you are at really high levels, that +1 bonus becomes petty, and you've essentially wasted all those ranks in a specilized Knowledge skill when you could be getting ranks in, say, Tumble, or Diplomacy, or even perhaps Use Magic Device.

This is so incredibly cool. This is perhaps the Bard's greatest strength. You can use BK to emulate any Knowledge check (or you could at least convince your DM to let you try ;)) , and it's free!

I am soo playing a bard next chance I get.
BlaineTog
10-29-03, 07:26 PM Originally posted by Tedo

Not by any stretch of the imagination could the above description be construed as the bardic knowledge check should be allowed to take the place of all knowledge checks.

If that was the intention it would have said so.

Obviuosly, there will be some overlapping of what bardic knowledge can provide information about (which specifically is restricted to 'notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places'), such as your Royalty & Nobility example.

But saying that noteworthy people covers deities (unles you have a custom pantheon in which your gods actually are people), or that noteworthy places covers dungeons in a way that makes you knowledgeable in how to survive in one, is just plain wrong.

If what you said was true, 5 ranks in Knowledge(history) would give you a +2 synergy bonus to your bardic knowledge check when substituitng it for... Knowledge(history), for instance?

The Bard has been everywhere, heard about everything, and seen more than the average person. Plus, they are actively trying to learn juicy tidbits. The blurb in the the PHB is actually pretty general. If they had meant to restrict the BK to only replaing certain knowledge check they would have said which ones.
CaoSlayer
10-30-03, 09:43 AM I usually tend to master the BK almost as a subtitute for a knowledge check, but with a higher DC and usually the info just it is a myth or a song about the theme.

That it is, by example, party reach a town and it is welcomed by a guy in a tunic with a simbol of a gauntled with an eye.

The cleric will do a religion check 10 and the bard a check for 15, the cleric will know simply that it is the divine symbol of helm.

And the bard will think "The everlasting guardian gauntlet it is the eye of helm"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 10-29-03, 12:34 AM	I'm a little fuzzy on the concept of "Bardic Knowledge." I realize you can use it for any knowledge check, but if you do, are you barred from using further checks? Like, if i do a bardic Knowledge check on a sword we just found, and I fail, can I still use a Knowledge: Arcana check? On the other side of the die, if I Succeed, do I know everything about the sword, or do I just get the general idea of it's function and have to do a Knowledge: Arcana check anyway? Thanks.
Pystian 10-29-03, 06:07 AM	I don't think you could use a Bardic Knowledge check on a sword you just found unless you already knew something basic about it, like it belonged to the Sir Mortimer the Not-to-Shabby or it's called the Giant's Toothpick or something. Unless your DM has some funky new rules (and hey, that's half the game), then you probably couldn't even use a Knowledge: Arcana check. Bardic Knowledge is supposed to represent the bard's knowledge of stories and history. You can't use it for just any old Knowledge check (though I feel it shares a lot of territory with History, Local, and Royalty and Nobility). The good news is that making a Bardic Knowledge check doesn't prevent you from making any other kind of Knowledge check.
ManTimeForgot 10-29-03, 06:20 AM	Actually Pystian Bardic knowledge can be used on any type of knowledge period. Bardic knowledge is a backup knowledge check whenever the bard needs it. Depending on what DC you are shooting for it can duplicate any of the effects of any knowledge skill. One does not need rudimentary knowledge of anything in order to perform a knowledge check, the same applies to bardic knowledge. Bardic Knowledge = all knowledge skills rolled into a ball and given to the bard for free every level. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Tedo 10-29-03, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Actually Pystian Bardic knowledge can be used on any type of knowledge period. That's an interesting house rule. Here's the core rule (from the 3.5 SRD): 'Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.'
Ithilorien 10-29-03, 05:13 PM	Originally posted by Tedo That's an interesting house rule. Here's the core rule (from the 3.5 SRD): 'Bardic Knowledge: A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.' It's debatable. I'd say the Planes (including the Prime) and dungeons are a noteworthy place, thus a bard could have a Bardic Knowledge check for Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), and Knowledge (nature), respectively. Royals and Nobility are certainly notable people, so a bard has Knowledge (nobility) also. The gods also fall under the category of "notable people", so perhaps they can use Bardic Knowledge (religion), too. Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (history) are a given, and might frequently overlap with other Knowledges. Knowledge (arcana) checks to identify magic items or particular wizards also fall under the description of Bardic Knowledge. Ergo, it can be somewhat easy to catch-all say that Bardic Knowledge may emulate any Knowledge skill.
Tedo 10-29-03, 07:15 PM	Originally posted by Ithilorien It's debatable. No it's not. Not by any stretch of the imagination could the above description be construed as the bardic knowledge check should be allowed to take the place of all knowledge checks. If that was the intention it would have said so. Obviuosly, there will be some overlapping of what bardic knowledge can provide information about (which specifically is restricted to 'notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places'), such as your Royalty & Nobility example. But saying that noteworthy people covers deities (unles you have a custom pantheon in which your gods actually are people), or that noteworthy places covers dungeons in a way that makes you knowledgeable in how to survive in one, is just plain wrong. If what you said was true, 5 ranks in Knowledge(history) would give you a +2 synergy bonus to your bardic knowledge check when substituitng it for... Knowledge(history), for instance?
BlaineTog 10-29-03, 07:23 PM	That makes sense. I mean, the Bard DOES know a little bit about everything, so it's makes sense that you could use Bardic Knowledge on anything. Actually, I've discovered something: Putting Skill points as a bard into anythig accept noiwledge: History is just plain silly. And this is why: At 1st level, max ranks= 4. Max BK "ranks" (if you will)=1. A Second level, however, it's a little bit differnet. Max ranks=5. Max ranks BK=2. Notice something? 5 ranks in Knowledge: History gives you a +2 synergy bonus to BK. So, 5 ranks in K:H and you'r Bardic Knowlede is only 1 rank lower than any other Knowledge skill that you can use. And it's free. Plus, this holds tru at high levels. Every time you go up a level, your max ranks goes uop by 1, but so does your BK, and you didn't even have to spend a skill point on it. By the time you are at really high levels, that +1 bonus becomes petty, and you've essentially wasted all those ranks in a specilized Knowledge skill when you could be getting ranks in, say, Tumble, or Diplomacy, or even perhaps Use Magic Device. This is so incredibly cool. This is perhaps the Bard's greatest strength. You can use BK to emulate any Knowledge check (or you could at least convince your DM to let you try ;)) , and it's free! I am soo playing a bard next chance I get.
BlaineTog 10-29-03, 07:26 PM	Originally posted by Tedo Not by any stretch of the imagination could the above description be construed as the bardic knowledge check should be allowed to take the place of all knowledge checks. If that was the intention it would have said so. Obviuosly, there will be some overlapping of what bardic knowledge can provide information about (which specifically is restricted to 'notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places'), such as your Royalty & Nobility example. But saying that noteworthy people covers deities (unles you have a custom pantheon in which your gods actually are people), or that noteworthy places covers dungeons in a way that makes you knowledgeable in how to survive in one, is just plain wrong. If what you said was true, 5 ranks in Knowledge(history) would give you a +2 synergy bonus to your bardic knowledge check when substituitng it for... Knowledge(history), for instance? The Bard has been everywhere, heard about everything, and seen more than the average person. Plus, they are actively trying to learn juicy tidbits. The blurb in the the PHB is actually pretty general. If they had meant to restrict the BK to only replaing certain knowledge check they would have said which ones.
CaoSlayer 10-30-03, 09:43 AM	I usually tend to master the BK almost as a subtitute for a knowledge check, but with a higher DC and usually the info just it is a myth or a song about the theme. That it is, by example, party reach a town and it is welcomed by a guy in a tunic with a simbol of a gauntled with an eye. The cleric will do a religion check 10 and the bard a check for 15, the cleric will know simply that it is the divine symbol of helm. And the bard will think "The everlasting guardian gauntlet it is the eye of helm"