Bardic Music Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Music Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jazzman831
06-29-05, 01:27 AM I just got back from our gaming session and I had two questions about bards, more specifically Bardic Music. I know that Inspire Courage can only be used once per day per level, but how long is each "use"? What's to stop a bard from just never stopping so that he can give his allies a continual +1 to hit and damage (and other various things)? This makes a big difference at low level where they don't get very many uses per day.

Another question, but this one's mostly just double checking. Starting and "concentrating" on Inspire Courage is a standard action which means that a bard can only be affected by his own music for the 5 rounds afterwords, right? Although now that I think of it, is he even affected? The ability only says it affects allies, but doesn't mention the Bard himself. I would assume it does, but I don't know.

Thanks.
BlaineTog
06-29-05, 01:39 AM Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands).

...

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.1) He can keep singing as long as he likes, except this prevents him from casting spells.
2) It takes a free action each round to continue to keep Inspire Courage up.
2a) The bard is an ally to himself, of course, so it functions on him.
jazzman831
06-29-05, 02:02 AM I get one and three (but it since our bard doesn't need to cast spells in between combat very often I just know that one of these days he's going to give himself another "use" by just never stopping singing...), but where does it say that continuing it is a free action? It seems to me that "continuing to sing" would be the same as concentrating on the song, which takes a standard action.
Skadrian
06-29-05, 03:01 AM Concentrating takes a standard action. Your allies are affected for 5 rounds after the bard stops singing (10 rounds with lingering song, CV pg 111)
Extraordinary concentration may make it a move action or even a swift action, but I dont know what to use for the spell lvl of inspire courage.
BlaineTog
06-29-05, 03:24 AM I get one and three (but it since our bard doesn't need to cast spells in between combat very often I just know that one of these days he's going to give himself another "use" by just never stopping singing...), but where does it say that continuing it is a free action? It seems to me that "continuing to sing" would be the same as concentrating on the song, which takes a standard action.The key is that it doesn't specifically state that he needs to keep spending standard actions to use it. "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability." Now, by the way it's worded, we can conclude that it always requires a standard action to start, but it doesn't require concentration unless otherwise states. If you want more proof of this, look at the Fascinate bardic ability; thet one specifically states that it requires concentration.
farfairer
06-29-05, 03:59 AM It can't be a standard action to continue to sing, becasue while singing you can take a full attack action, a full move action, and/ or activate a magic item that doesn't have a verbal activation (like a ring of invisibility). You can also climb, jump, tumble and if you are a Bard/ Dervish you can Dervish dance while you sing.
Skadrian
06-29-05, 04:12 AM ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song?
Norhg
06-29-05, 04:16 AM ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song?
To have the effects of the song you are singing while retaining the effects of the song you sang 7 rounds ago?

Beats me, I haven't needed lingering song yet. But I will take lasting song at epic. (x10 duration.)
Kintara
06-29-05, 04:19 AM ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song?
You'd stop singing because it's noisy, and/or you plan on casting a spell in the interlude. You take Lingering Song so you can stack Music and Spell effects in and before battle.

Most of the time, my Bard ends up casting a spell in between music effects, interrupting them.
jazzman831
06-29-05, 04:23 AM It can't be a standard action to continue to sing, becasue while singing you can take a full attack action, a full move action, and/ or activate a magic item that doesn't have a verbal activation (like a ring of invisibility). You can also climb, jump, tumble and if you are a Bard/ Dervish you can Dervish dance while you sing.
I'm not trying to be picky or anything, but where does it say that? (OK, so I am being picky :P )
the artful dodger
06-29-05, 04:24 AM Then why would you ever stop singing? Small things like having to eat and drink and occasionally just say something to the other party members. Being quiet when you want to be unnoticed. Not getting on the nerves of the others with your incessant wailing. ;)
Skadrian
06-29-05, 04:34 AM especially the last part is a good reason to keep singing, but I might have some rests for the other parts
jazzman831
06-29-05, 04:52 AM See, the player we have as the bard is just the type of person who might sing between encounters if he knows we are about to encounter something else, just to save that extra use of BM. He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it.
the artful dodger
06-29-05, 05:32 AM He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it. So they yell at you for metagaming, but they're ok with the bard player doing it? Hypocrits! ;)
Norhg
06-29-05, 06:32 AM See, the player we have as the bard is just the type of person who might sing between encounters if he knows we are about to encounter something else, just to save that extra use of BM. He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it.
So when are you metagaming...?
And people shouldn't insinuate that character's don't know when they have used their abilities for the day ;). That would be dangerous. The bard knows how many times he can start singing his song of helping a day. So he might as well keep it going.
Shadowfax7
06-29-05, 01:01 PM I would presume that someone can't sing all day w/o stopping . . . if s/he does, then I would use the Fatigue/Exhaustion rules.

Apply common sense, for instance I would say that someone could sing for 3 minutes plus 1 minute/Con bonus (after which if s/he continues, s/he would be fatigued and after 1 hour of continuous singing s/he would be exhausted).

This is arbitrary and based on a normal song lasting 3 minutes or so at a concert before there is a rest period (no matter how short it is, it would end the song) and a new song ensues.
farfairer
06-29-05, 01:17 PM I'm not trying to be picky or anything, but where does it say that? (OK, so I am being picky :P )

Alright, this is tricky. It doesn't specificly say that you can do the things I listed, however what it says are as follows:

Page 29 PHB: Bardic Music (second paragraph): Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands).

It doesn't say what kind of action it takes to continue using a bard song that does not require concentration, however it does say that you can activate magic items that don't requre spell completion or magic words and continue to sing. Activating a magic item is a standard action.

page 29 PHB: Bardic music (second column, first paragraph): Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities.

If a bard cannot attack and sing, then why can they inspire themselves?

page 26 Complete Warrior: Dervish, Dervish Dance (second Column, end of first paragraph): A dervish with bardic music ability can, however, sing while she dances.

Dervish Dance is an Extrorrdinary ability that takes a full attack action to use.
jazzman831
06-29-05, 02:04 PM Shadowfax: genious. If he ever tries to do this to me I will use your system. We are actually both in a band together, so I can probably convince him pretty well that it makes sense.

farfairer: Thank you for clearing everything up. Now it is obvious to me (through your extensive research of the rules) what others have been saying is obvious, but really only kind of makes sense. Now all we need is for Wizards to add this to their next FAQ. I mean seriously, I looked it up before I posted, and there isn't even a catagory for bard questions!!
farfairer
06-29-05, 05:26 PM farfairer: Thank you for clearing everything up. Now it is obvious to me (through your extensive research of the rules) what others have been saying is obvious, but really only kind of makes sense. Now all we need is for Wizards to add this to their next FAQ. I mean seriously, I looked it up before I posted, and there isn't even a catagory for bard questions!!

Your welcome. I actually looked at the FAQ also, because I thought it specificly stated somewhere that you could attack and inspire at the same time.

Oh well. I guess nobody cares about us bards. :weep:
Vaelan
06-29-05, 05:42 PM Speaking is rather close to singing, and speaking is a free action. Thus it would not be unreasonable to assume that singing is a free action as well. In addition, it specifically lists what using Bardic Music prevents you from doing, and making a full-attack isn't included.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jazzman831 06-29-05, 01:27 AM	I just got back from our gaming session and I had two questions about bards, more specifically Bardic Music. I know that Inspire Courage can only be used once per day per level, but how long is each "use"? What's to stop a bard from just never stopping so that he can give his allies a continual +1 to hit and damage (and other various things)? This makes a big difference at low level where they don't get very many uses per day. Another question, but this one's mostly just double checking. Starting and "concentrating" on Inspire Courage is a standard action which means that a bard can only be affected by his own music for the 5 rounds afterwords, right? Although now that I think of it, is he even affected? The ability only says it affects allies, but doesn't mention the Bard himself. I would assume it does, but I don't know. Thanks.
BlaineTog 06-29-05, 01:39 AM	Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). ... Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.1) He can keep singing as long as he likes, except this prevents him from casting spells. 2) It takes a free action each round to continue to keep Inspire Courage up. 2a) The bard is an ally to himself, of course, so it functions on him.
jazzman831 06-29-05, 02:02 AM	I get one and three (but it since our bard doesn't need to cast spells in between combat very often I just know that one of these days he's going to give himself another "use" by just never stopping singing...), but where does it say that continuing it is a free action? It seems to me that "continuing to sing" would be the same as concentrating on the song, which takes a standard action.
Skadrian 06-29-05, 03:01 AM	Concentrating takes a standard action. Your allies are affected for 5 rounds after the bard stops singing (10 rounds with lingering song, CV pg 111) Extraordinary concentration may make it a move action or even a swift action, but I dont know what to use for the spell lvl of inspire courage.
BlaineTog 06-29-05, 03:24 AM	I get one and three (but it since our bard doesn't need to cast spells in between combat very often I just know that one of these days he's going to give himself another "use" by just never stopping singing...), but where does it say that continuing it is a free action? It seems to me that "continuing to sing" would be the same as concentrating on the song, which takes a standard action.The key is that it doesn't specifically state that he needs to keep spending standard actions to use it. "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability." Now, by the way it's worded, we can conclude that it always requires a standard action to start, but it doesn't require concentration unless otherwise states. If you want more proof of this, look at the Fascinate bardic ability; thet one specifically states that it requires concentration.
farfairer 06-29-05, 03:59 AM	It can't be a standard action to continue to sing, becasue while singing you can take a full attack action, a full move action, and/ or activate a magic item that doesn't have a verbal activation (like a ring of invisibility). You can also climb, jump, tumble and if you are a Bard/ Dervish you can Dervish dance while you sing.
Skadrian 06-29-05, 04:12 AM	ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song?
Norhg 06-29-05, 04:16 AM	ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song? To have the effects of the song you are singing while retaining the effects of the song you sang 7 rounds ago? Beats me, I haven't needed lingering song yet. But I will take lasting song at epic. (x10 duration.)
Kintara 06-29-05, 04:19 AM	ah, great, that really helps, so continuing singing would just be a free action? Then why would you ever stop singing, why would someone take lingering song? You'd stop singing because it's noisy, and/or you plan on casting a spell in the interlude. You take Lingering Song so you can stack Music and Spell effects in and before battle. Most of the time, my Bard ends up casting a spell in between music effects, interrupting them.
jazzman831 06-29-05, 04:23 AM	It can't be a standard action to continue to sing, becasue while singing you can take a full attack action, a full move action, and/ or activate a magic item that doesn't have a verbal activation (like a ring of invisibility). You can also climb, jump, tumble and if you are a Bard/ Dervish you can Dervish dance while you sing. I'm not trying to be picky or anything, but where does it say that? (OK, so I am being picky :P )
the artful dodger 06-29-05, 04:24 AM	Then why would you ever stop singing? Small things like having to eat and drink and occasionally just say something to the other party members. Being quiet when you want to be unnoticed. Not getting on the nerves of the others with your incessant wailing. ;)
Skadrian 06-29-05, 04:34 AM	especially the last part is a good reason to keep singing, but I might have some rests for the other parts
jazzman831 06-29-05, 04:52 AM	See, the player we have as the bard is just the type of person who might sing between encounters if he knows we are about to encounter something else, just to save that extra use of BM. He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it.
the artful dodger 06-29-05, 05:32 AM	He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it. So they yell at you for metagaming, but they're ok with the bard player doing it? Hypocrits! ;)
Norhg 06-29-05, 06:32 AM	See, the player we have as the bard is just the type of person who might sing between encounters if he knows we are about to encounter something else, just to save that extra use of BM. He hasn't done it yet, but I'm dreading the day when he figures it out. It's an easy enough fix, of course, but my group has a supernatural ability to know when I'm metagaming and they yell at me for it. So when are you metagaming...? And people shouldn't insinuate that character's don't know when they have used their abilities for the day ;). That would be dangerous. The bard knows how many times he can start singing his song of helping a day. So he might as well keep it going.
Shadowfax7 06-29-05, 01:01 PM	I would presume that someone can't sing all day w/o stopping . . . if s/he does, then I would use the Fatigue/Exhaustion rules. Apply common sense, for instance I would say that someone could sing for 3 minutes plus 1 minute/Con bonus (after which if s/he continues, s/he would be fatigued and after 1 hour of continuous singing s/he would be exhausted). This is arbitrary and based on a normal song lasting 3 minutes or so at a concert before there is a rest period (no matter how short it is, it would end the song) and a new song ensues.
farfairer 06-29-05, 01:17 PM	I'm not trying to be picky or anything, but where does it say that? (OK, so I am being picky :P ) Alright, this is tricky. It doesn't specificly say that you can do the things I listed, however what it says are as follows: Page 29 PHB: Bardic Music (second paragraph): Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). It doesn't say what kind of action it takes to continue using a bard song that does not require concentration, however it does say that you can activate magic items that don't requre spell completion or magic words and continue to sing. Activating a magic item is a standard action. page 29 PHB: Bardic music (second column, first paragraph): Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. If a bard cannot attack and sing, then why can they inspire themselves? page 26 Complete Warrior: Dervish, Dervish Dance (second Column, end of first paragraph): A dervish with bardic music ability can, however, sing while she dances. Dervish Dance is an Extrorrdinary ability that takes a full attack action to use.
jazzman831 06-29-05, 02:04 PM	Shadowfax: genious. If he ever tries to do this to me I will use your system. We are actually both in a band together, so I can probably convince him pretty well that it makes sense. farfairer: Thank you for clearing everything up. Now it is obvious to me (through your extensive research of the rules) what others have been saying is obvious, but really only kind of makes sense. Now all we need is for Wizards to add this to their next FAQ. I mean seriously, I looked it up before I posted, and there isn't even a catagory for bard questions!!
farfairer 06-29-05, 05:26 PM	farfairer: Thank you for clearing everything up. Now it is obvious to me (through your extensive research of the rules) what others have been saying is obvious, but really only kind of makes sense. Now all we need is for Wizards to add this to their next FAQ. I mean seriously, I looked it up before I posted, and there isn't even a catagory for bard questions!! Your welcome. I actually looked at the FAQ also, because I thought it specificly stated somewhere that you could attack and inspire at the same time. Oh well. I guess nobody cares about us bards. :weep:
Vaelan 06-29-05, 05:42 PM	Speaking is rather close to singing, and speaking is a free action. Thus it would not be unreasonable to assume that singing is a free action as well. In addition, it specifically lists what using Bardic Music prevents you from doing, and making a full-attack isn't included.