Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ghost0 07-22-07, 05:18 PM	I have a player who will most likely be using the Fascinate + Suggestion ability with the Bard frequently in the upcoming future. I'm curious about a few things on how it might work: 1. If a creature is restrained, perhaps not even tied up or bound, but "caught" (let's say in jail), and the Bard is able to easily fascinate them, can the Bard simply keep attempting the Suggestion ability until the creature fails? Would a failed saving throw be grounds for a potential threat, thus giving the creature a new save against the fascinate ability, or break it altogether? 2. Pretty close to the last question, but, what is stopping a Bard from attempting multiple Suggestions to a creature he has Fascinated? 3. Does spell resistence apply to the Suggestion spell-like ability if the Bard attempts to use it against a creature with SR? I may have more questions, but let's start with those. Any advice you guys can offer would be great, thanks!
Marcotic 07-22-07, 06:29 PM	1. Well, off the top o' the old noodle, no, raw, a bard has nothing stoping him from doing just that. If this is a problem, just say that once a target has resisted it, they are immune for 24 hours. Your the dm right? the game is only as broken as you allow it to be. 2. RAW there is nothing, but dm can intervene. 3. No, on this one I would stick to the rules.
Shadowfax7 07-22-07, 07:11 PM	IMO these answers are more correct . . . 1. If a creature is restrained, perhaps not even tied up or bound, but "caught" (let's say in jail), and the Bard is able to easily fascinate them, can the Bard simply keep attempting the Suggestion ability until the creature fails?Yes, but only so long as the creature is fascinated. Would a failed saving throw be grounds for a potential threat, thus giving the creature a new save against the fascinate ability, or break it altogether?No, using the Suggestion ability does not break the Bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. 2. Pretty close to the last question, but, what is stopping a Bard from attempting multiple Suggestions to a creature he has Fascinated?The fact that the fascinate lasts a max of 1 round/level and you can only Suggest 1/round (since it's a standard action to use a spell-like ability). 3. Does spell resistence apply to the Suggestion spell-like ability if the Bard attempts to use it against a creature with SR?Yes.
Marcotic 07-22-07, 08:41 PM	1. Well, off the top o' the old noodle, no, raw, a bard has nothing stoping him from doing just that. If this is a problem, just say that once a target has resisted it, they are immune for 24 hours. Your the dm right? the game is only as broken as you allow it to be. 2. RAW there is nothing, but dm can intervene. 3. No, on this one I would stick to the rules. ahhh... .... whoops:)
Ghost0 07-23-07, 12:14 AM	:) Right, raw, the spell like ability of a the Suggestion is susceptible to SR, if the target has SR. Right? Also, so, if the SR is the reason for the Suggestion failing, you're basically saying that the bard can keep attempting a Suggestion for every round that they have Bard class levels until both the Bard succeeds in bypassing the SR AND the creature fails its saving throw? Okay, the Fascinate ability does not use a Bardic Music per day. The Suggestion does not use a Bardic Music per day. If a creature is behind bars, no one else around, nothing else "threatening" the creature, what is to stop a bard from basically EVENTUALLY succeeding on a Suggestion to that creature? You mentioned that it is capped at 1 round per level. But...why couldn't they just fascinate them again? And when they have them again, they could just use Suggestion again. Any Bard worth his salt is going to have their Perform skill maxed out as well as a decent Charisma score. We're talking about, rolled or taking a 10, at 6th level, with a MW instrument, about a DC 25 against the fascinate ability. That's really good, and I think they deserve that, especially with all the conditions around the "fascinated" effect. So let's assume just about any CR 6 creature is going to just about fail that Save, especially with crazy good players like the ones i have that have that skill focus and other feats and items that boost the score beyond belief. Once fascinated, at 6th level, there are bascially 6 tries the Bard can make (er, five tries? first round to fascinate, next round to use Suggestion??) to use a Suggestion ability on the subject. If the subject has SR, they have to bypass the SR, and then the subject has to fail a Will save of 10+1/2 CL+Cha mod (let's say 10+3+4=17). Miraculously, if the creature isn't subjected to a successful Suggestion after those 6 (or 5) attempts, and the Fascination effect ends...can't the Bard just...try again? I'm trying to find out how it is that a Bard has so much power at 6th level. A successful suggestion is basically key to interrogating any bad guy in this game, and although I do desperately wish for the Bard in my campaign to excel in this (and other) department, it just seems like an ace in the hole. Thoughts?
atlatyl 07-23-07, 12:50 AM	:) I'm trying to find out how it is that a Bard has so much power at 6th level. A successful suggestion is basically key to interrogating any bad guy in this game, and although I do desperately wish for the Bard in my campaign to excel in this (and other) department, it just seems like an ace in the hole. Thoughts? Well sure the suggestion ability is a great way of interrogating bad guys -- it's also a good way to get better prices, gain small favors from NPCs, lots of stuff. Every character-build has an "ace in the hole" -- some have several aces in the hole. But suggestion is the same thing as the first level spell "suggestion" and the limitations are in the player's handbook.
Shadowfax7 07-23-07, 10:24 AM	Right, raw, the spell like ability of a the Suggestion is susceptible to SR, if the target has SR. Right? Also, so, if the SR is the reason for the Suggestion failing, you're basically saying that the bard can keep attempting a Suggestion for every round that they have Bard class levels until both the Bard succeeds in bypassing the SR AND the creature fails its saving throw?Yes, for each Bardic Music use they have left, not Bard class level. Okay, the Fascinate ability does not use a Bardic Music per day. The Suggestion does not use a Bardic Music per day. If a creature is behind bars, no one else around, nothing else "threatening" the creature, what is to stop a bard from basically EVENTUALLY succeeding on a Suggestion to that creature?Fascinate does require a Bardic Music use. You mentioned that it is capped at 1 round per level. But...why couldn't they just fascinate them again? And when they have them again, they could just use Suggestion again. Any Bard worth his salt is going to have their Perform skill maxed out as well as a decent Charisma score. We're talking about, rolled or taking a 10, at 6th level, with a MW instrument, about a DC 25 against the fascinate ability. That's really good, and I think they deserve that, especially with all the conditions around the "fascinated" effect. So let's assume just about any CR 6 creature is going to just about fail that Save, especially with crazy good players like the ones i have that have that skill focus and other feats and items that boost the score beyond belief.Limited use of Bardic Music, conditions required for Fascinate to work, Suggestion not being a foolproof spell for everything, etc. Once fascinated, at 6th level, there are bascially 6 tries the Bard can make (er, five tries? first round to fascinate, next round to use Suggestion??) to use a Suggestion ability on the subject. If the subject has SR, they have to bypass the SR, and then the subject has to fail a Will save of 10+1/2 CL+Cha mod (let's say 10+3+4=17). Miraculously, if the creature isn't subjected to a successful Suggestion after those 6 (or 5) attempts, and the Fascination effect ends...can't the Bard just...try again?5 tries of Suggestion at 6th level is correct. I'm trying to find out how it is that a Bard has so much power at 6th level. A successful suggestion is basically key to interrogating any bad guy in this game, and although I do desperately wish for the Bard in my campaign to excel in this (and other) department, it just seems like an ace in the hole. Thoughts? IMO Bards and Fascinate are well balanced.
Ghost0 07-23-07, 11:29 PM	I see now that the Fascinate ability requires a Bardic Music ability. hmph. But still, at 6th level, we're talking about 6 attempts to fascinate (which is pretty much in the bag), then 5 tries each round per BM attempts to use Suggestion on a creature. A creature with an average SR will have a better chance of resisting this effect, but typically they will be caught in the rapture and spell effect. I'm not saying this ability is broken, really! I'm just trying to get the facts on how it works. I see it is very limited mostly to out-of-combat situations, since threats and so forth pretty much limit the 'facinated' ability. I'm just seeing this is going to be an abil that my PC is going to probably use a lot, so I want to get the rules down pat. I'm still confused at how succeeding on a saving throw isn't grounds for feeling threatened. I remember reading at some point that a creature, PC or not, knows when it has failed a saving throw, and knows that something is afoot. Since the rules on Fascinated are so precarious, I would think something like a successful will save would give the creature at the very least a second save to realize its being taken advantage of... Seriously guys, thanks for all your feedback, so much is becoming clear...
Shadowfax7 07-24-07, 09:24 AM	I'm still confused at how succeeding on a saving throw isn't grounds for feeling threatened. I remember reading at some point that a creature, PC or not, knows when it has failed a saving throw, and knows that something is afoot. Since the rules on Fascinated are so precarious, I would think something like a successful will save would give the creature at the very least a second save to realize its being taken advantage of...That rule is only for spells, not Bardic Music. From the 3.5 SRD: Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. However, what you propose is not outside House Rule territory. Again, IMO, unnecessary. Using all your Bardic Music uses to Fascinate, leaves nothing for anything else . . .
CaoSlayer 07-24-07, 12:35 PM	I see now that the Fascinate ability requires a Bardic Music ability. hmph. But still, at 6th level, we're talking about 6 attempts to fascinate (which is pretty much in the bag), then 5 tries each round per BM attempts to use Suggestion on a creature. A creature with an average SR will have a better chance of resisting this effect, but typically they will be caught in the rapture and spell effect. I'm not saying this ability is broken, really! I'm just trying to get the facts on how it works. I see it is very limited mostly to out-of-combat situations, since threats and so forth pretty much limit the 'facinated' ability. I'm just seeing this is going to be an abil that my PC is going to probably use a lot, so I want to get the rules down pat. I'm still confused at how succeeding on a saving throw isn't grounds for feeling threatened. I remember reading at some point that a creature, PC or not, knows when it has failed a saving throw, and knows that something is afoot. Since the rules on Fascinated are so precarious, I would think something like a successful will save would give the creature at the very least a second save to realize its being taken advantage of... Seriously guys, thanks for all your feedback, so much is becoming clear... Well, successing in a save throw only cause a weird sensation in the target and since they are under a spell that makes them unable to do anything but listening the bard it is likely that they only pass over it. By the way, remember that suggestion works like the spell and have the same duration and so once suggested will do the task ever if not longer under fascination, by example if you suggest him to run toward a city one hundred miles away he will do it for several hours or until he reach the city. Yes, fascination/suggestion is that powerful but is one of the balancing factors of the bards who in place of regular high level spells they get this and other useful bardic music and any regular sorcerer can use the spell for more times per day if he uses higher level slots.