Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tolly7249 08-25-07, 06:18 AM	Excuse me... WHAT?? Who keeps spreading the lie that the Bard is useless? Come on, own up, you know who you are... Allow me to present a counter-arguement. To paraphrase my best friend... The Bard is the Doctor in Doctor Who. He knows everything. He may not be the master of anything (look at how he flies the TARDIS!!) but he always has something he can do. He doesn't go wading into battle, he plots and plans until everything is perfect. This man is so clever and tricky that the Daleks, the DALEKS, people the Daleks make liches and black dragons look sweet and friendly, made him Public Enemy #1! That, good sirs and ladies, is what the Bard is. Knowledgable, quick-witted, versatile, a negotiator and planner, able to handle almost anything, and when they can't come up with a plan they still survive on a wing and a prayer. Remember. The Doctor is a Bard! (I am so going to hell for this post. It was worth it.)
arderkrag 08-25-07, 06:29 AM	I'll only accept that if they all have a chance of starting with Tom Baker's scarf.
Tolly7249 08-25-07, 06:37 AM	:OMG! :rofl: You win the internet. And a cookie. :cookie: :rofl:
Treantmonklvl20 08-25-07, 09:27 AM	Never heard anyone say they were useless - so I don't know who you are referring to. I've called them one of the weaker classes. As for the irrelevant comparison to the Doctor - the Doctor is SMART - Bards are Charismatic. Wizards and Beguilers will focus much more on INT than Bards.
Tolly7249 08-25-07, 11:23 AM	The Doctor is Charisma Incarnate. Think about it - he meets millions of people, and most of them will trust him with their lives within seconds of meeting him. He can get people he's known for all of an hour to step into his magic box and risk their lives by traveling with him. He's got such force of personality that he can make people do things they'd never even consider doing normally. The only person with more charisma that the Doctor is The Master. (Only two more weeks until the Master returns! Boo-ya! Give me spoilers and perish, though.) Regardless, Bards are not weak. At least, they're not weak when they're played cleverly. They are exceedingly versatile and an indispensable party member. (A party with a Bard often fares better than a party without.) What's more, they're the only Core class who can cast Arcane magic in armour without spell failure. I think that the main reason that people call the bard weak is because they can be exceedingly difficult to play. They require a certain mindset, one that most people find difficult to get into. I've noticed that people who are musicians IRL tend to be better at it. Something to do with the ability to perform, maybe... I've only met two other people who were decent bards - one was a trumpet player in an orchestra and the other was a singer in a band. (I won't deny that I prefer the 3.0 bard to the 3.5 bard, I feel they got nerfed a bit. Armoured Caster makes me happy, though. But they're both better than the 2e bard. The 2e bard made me angry, I only tolerated them because Baldur's Gate II introduced me to Haer'Dalis. Mmmmmm, tiefling bard.)
OneWinged4ngel 08-25-07, 12:21 PM	Bards are social beasts, and Diplomacy is considered so broken in 3.5 that it's actually on the "charop's most broken" list next to Pun Pun (See the Campaign Smashers thread). They also have a useful array of spells, and get *lots* of love from supplements. Moreover, they can pump up Inspire Courage very high (Hey, +8 attack and damage or +8d6 energy damage to the whole party's attacks at level 8 or so is nothing to sneeze at), and Fascinate/Suggestion is so powerful it can actually bring a wyrm dragon to its knees at fairly low level. Bards aren't weak. Poorly designed, maybe, but definitely not weak. On CharOp polls for 10 most powerful core classes, Bard was taking around the 5th slot on a lot of lists.
Treantmonklvl20 08-25-07, 12:42 PM	Bards are social beasts, and Diplomacy is considered so broken in 3.5 that it's actually on the "charop's most broken" list next to Pun Pun (See the Campaign Smashers thread). They also have a useful array of spells, and get *lots* of love from supplements. Moreover, they can pump up Inspire Courage very high (Hey, +8 attack and damage or +8d6 energy damage to the whole party's attacks at level 8 or so is nothing to sneeze at), and Fascinate/Suggestion is so powerful it can actually bring a wyrm dragon to its knees at fairly low level. Bards aren't weak. Poorly designed, maybe, but definitely not weak. On CharOp polls for 10 most powerful core classes, Bard was taking around the 5th slot on a lot of lists. Yet the CharOp boards suggest (almost exclusively) Marshal for a diplomacy build.
dman11235 08-25-07, 01:13 PM	Words of creation. That's all I have to add. My party's bard got us +10 to attack and damage at level 12, and he missed stuff. I believe we are level 14 and he is giving us +14. He's why I'm not playing a Thri-Kreen skirmish dervish. I have always liked bards, even more than marshals. I think that a bard is more useful than a marshal in combat, and in social situations I believe that bards are emperor.
OneWinged4ngel 08-25-07, 01:15 PM	Yet the CharOp boards suggest (almost exclusively) Marshal for a diplomacy build. Yes, because Marshal has a 1 level dip for doubling your Cha.
Khan the Destroyer 08-25-07, 05:09 PM	Yet the CharOp boards suggest (almost exclusively) Marshal for a diplomacy build. As a one level dip. A diplomacy build on the CharOp Board always starts with Half-elf Bard with the substitution level. Bards are insanely powerful out of combat, and can even be insanely powerful in combat. They can also make the party insanely poweful in combat. And they know a lot. I love bards. Though I agree with the OP. There is a lot of 'the bard sucks' sentiments on these boards. But, I think there's a lot of the opposite as well.
OneWinged4ngel 08-25-07, 05:36 PM	Bards are insanely powerful out of combat, and can even be insanely powerful in combat. They can also make the party insanely poweful in combat. And they know a lot. Pretty much. Heck, even at very low levels... +3 or 4 attack and damage is going to be a great boon for a party, and give them a substatnial leg up on the competition. Heck, if we're talking a level 4 party, that means that not only does the two-handed fighter is actually going out with +12 damage on all his attacks, but *everyone* gets +4 to attack and damage. That's +20% to hit, and a good extra chunk of damage, and it applies to *everything*, be it arrows, spells, or melee. Manyshot or flurry or power attack at will.
Twocan 08-25-07, 07:01 PM	I've nothing against what bards do mechanically but, seriously, when you have wizards going from calm to lightning bolts in under 6 seconds, fighters with big ol swords and armor and rogue types stabbing people in the kidneys for more damage then the sum total of a small families collective hit points, having a man recite poetry at the enemy just seems kinda, lame. Mechanically though, bards are awesome. Just seems kinda overshadowed by all the 'cooler' (and i use that term entirely loosely) things you can be, and do.
Khan the Destroyer 08-25-07, 07:12 PM	But, but... he recites poetry so dangerously.
Treantmonklvl20 08-25-07, 07:52 PM	As a one level dip. A diplomacy build on the CharOp Board always starts with Half-elf Bard with the substitution level. Bards are insanely powerful out of combat, and can even be insanely powerful in combat. They can also make the party insanely poweful in combat. And they know a lot. I love bards. Though I agree with the OP. There is a lot of 'the bard sucks' sentiments on these boards. But, I think there's a lot of the opposite as well. You are correct - one level of 1/2 elf bard substitution level - one level of marshal - then off to bigger and better things. Single or Multiple levels of 1/2 elf paragon, warlock, Cleric, Human Paragon etc etc. Bards do make a decent diplomacy build single classed though. Not bad with enchantment spells either. However - if this is the mix you want - check out beguiler - spellcasting is much more potent and plentiful - and diplomacy is still a class skill. Bards might be the best buffers out there though (Yes - probably better at BUFFING than Clerics, unless you are talking about self-buffing). However, you have to like playing someone who's chief position is to buff someone else. If you don't like doing that - um, then Bards aren't your best choice. That's why I'm not a fan.
Lord_Zeb 08-25-07, 08:08 PM	Well, if your RPing is not just about killing everything you see, the Bard is a great buy. The Diplomacy skill is not the only thing, but there is a lot of Suggestion ability (both as Bardic Music as well as 2nd level spell instead of 3rd), spells to influence in various other ways as well as to span language barriers, as well as good Buffing ability and half-decent ability at about everything else. Not to mention Knowledge is power. ;) If well played, the Bard can very well become a "Dr Who" hero, as you can both make them listen to your Words, and Believe them as well as obey them. ;) Remember, you get XP for outsmarting people as well as that is one way of overcoming them, so that you don't need to kill people to level up. :P And, making your Enemy your Minions... isn't that a nice way to Win? ;)
Zardnaar 08-25-07, 08:10 PM	Bards have trouble fitting into a traditional 4 man adventuring party. If you are adding a 5th member an extra Druid or Cleric is always useful. However we have had Bards giving out +8 to hit/damage and had a party full of archers with rabid shot. Bards make a great 5th party member though and are more interesting than the Cleric which is boring as hell. I would probably rate bards about 5th in the power level scale after the primary spellcasters.
CaoSlayer 08-25-07, 08:33 PM	Bards have trouble fitting into a traditional 4 man adventuring party. If you are adding a 5th member an extra Druid or Cleric is always useful. However we have had Bards giving out +8 to hit/damage and had a party full of archers with rabid shot. Bards make a great 5th party member though and are more interesting than the Cleric which is boring as hell. I would probably rate bards about 5th in the power level scale after the primary spellcasters. Yep, a bard cant (well actually with builds can) replace a member of a traditional rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard party but nowadays nobody plays a traditional party but you have stuff like scout/duskblade/paladin/bard or druid/cleric/beguiler/bard or ninja/favoured soul/monk/bard. There are lots of classes and builds out there and most of them arent balanced without a bard that gives the enough spells, weapons or armors for making a whole party work. -- "Diplomacy" can be used in a dungeon setting, charm the orc guard and befriend with diplomacy so you can get a bodyguard or dominate someone two weeks before the adventure. A bard uses Jedi diplomacy.
Khan the Destroyer 08-25-07, 09:13 PM	Bards do make a decent diplomacy build single classed though. Not bad with enchantment spells either. However - if this is the mix you want - check out beguiler - spellcasting is much more potent and plentiful - and diplomacy is still a class skill. But that's only one aspect of the bard. A bard's social aspect is extremely powerful. Charisma is his main stat, and he has all of the social skills. Diplomacy is a set DC so it's easy to master. For Bluff, he has Glibness. Game over. On top of that, he has Fascinate/Suggestion. This is incredibly powerful as well, and is even more likely to see use in combat as well. Speaking of combat... the bard reigns supreme. His Bardic Music has a huge impact on combat. When the rogue's sneak attacks are getting steady thanks to that plus to attack, and the fighters doing even more damage on his multiple hits, and even the bard himself is jumping into the fray to shave off some HP. On top of that, there's a bunch of feats, spells, and magic items that fascilitate a melee bard. Bards might be the best buffers out there though (Yes - probably better at BUFFING than Clerics, unless you are talking about self-buffing). However, you have to like playing someone who's chief position is to buff someone else. But bards buff themselves with the same action they use to buff someone else. You're not just buffing the party, you're buffing yourself as well. You can enter combat just like the rest of them. And outside of combat, you're still the main man. And when it comes to knowing stuff, you're the go-to guy again. Bards don't have to just buff, though you can play them that way. They can excel (even beyond excel) at NPC interaction, and can contribute very well in combat situations. It's all in how you want to play them really.
RadicalTaoist 08-25-07, 09:46 PM	Bards are fricking amazing buffers and tactical control against anything that doesn't have mind-affecting immunity. You've got the Rogue's stealth skills. Sneak along and end encounters before they begin with Fascinate+Suggestion. That's just the start of things. Bards freaking rock. They are subtle so they don't get recognition, but properly applied they are a better asset to a party than a cleric.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-25-07, 10:03 PM	Bards are great diplomancers. To those not in the know, Diplomancy involves casting Charm Person to temporarily alter the NPC's reaction to friendly, then making a DC 15 diplomacy check to permanently change the reaction to Helpful. It's a great tactic. And that way, you don't have to pump up diplomacy that high, maybe high enough to routinely hit 25 if you want to do it in two rounds in case of combat. That leaves you option open to do other things.
OneWinged4ngel 08-25-07, 11:56 PM	Basically, to quote from the CharOp boards "The old-fashioned, foolish notion that the bard is weak has long since fallen out of style here." The people shouting that bards suck *generally* don't know what they're talking about =P
Tolly7249 08-26-07, 12:59 AM	You have all made me a very happy bard-fan indeed. :dancin: Unfortunately, pretty much everywhere I go I get crap cause I like playing Bards. I get a lot of the leet-speak kiddie stuff a lot, which annoys the bejeezus out of me. (I have a standard rule - if they can't be bothered to at least try to write properly, then I won't dignify their efforts by trying to read them.) If I have one more Codzilla versus Bard arguement, I'll use a Wand of Fire to end the discussion. :evillaugh (Luckily I have recently fallen in with a wonderfully twisted group, one of whom plays the Dragon Compendium Jester with the flare and aplomb of Jester in Devil May Cry 3. Truly, I am a happy bunny rabbit.) Still, it's been amazing to see the swift and generally positive response to my initial post. :cookie: for everyone!
Optimator 08-26-07, 04:39 AM	Bards are fricking amazing buffers and tactical control against anything that doesn't have mind-affecting immunity. You've got the Rogue's stealth skills. Sneak along and end encounters before they begin with Fascinate+Suggestion. That's just the start of things. Bards freaking rock. They are subtle so they don't get recognition, but properly applied they are a better asset to a party than a cleric. Bardic Knowledge is teh win.
liquoriceanimal 08-26-07, 07:18 AM	I agree that bards dont suck. My 30 lvl bard beated my friend's phrenic warmage-warlock with 2 hits. I dealed about 220 damage per round.
Redja_the_Foolish 08-26-07, 07:55 AM	Bards are extremely powerful if you know how to handle them properly. They can make great ranged and melee characters, capable of dealing great damage in close combat or at range. They can stealth, have minor healing ability, buff very well, their diplomacy is excellent and bards doesn't have the social stigma which sorcerers, wizards and warlocks may have. They have all knowledge skills as class skills. good movement skills such as balance, tumble, swim and climb. They are great as minion enhancers. Have a bunch of weak minions and a warchanter and you will see a great increase in the minions combat ability. Have the party face a supposedly "weak" bard and it turns out she is a seeker of the song. They will be amazed at how much damage and disruption a bard can cause. The villagers might want to burn the wizard, sorcerer or warlock but the charismatic bard is welcome in the village because of her talent with songs and music, poetry, dance, storytelling or jokes.
Treantmonklvl20 08-26-07, 08:14 AM	Bards are extremely powerful if you know how to handle them properly. They can make great ranged and melee characters, capable of dealing great damage in close combat or at range.. How exactly do you accomplish that? Whatever Bards are, "Great" ranged or melee (especially melee) characters is not it - or do you have some secret build I should be informed of? They have all knowledge skills as class skills. good movement skills such as balance, tumble, swim and climb. You are buying Knowledge Skills, Balance, Tumble, Swim and Climb with your Bards? For a class that is every bit as skill hungry than Rogues, with LESS skill points - these are luxuries I'm not sure how you are affording. I admit the Bard skill LIST is great - but you can't afford them all. There is an alternate class ability giving 1/2 level in all skills isn't there? Not sure what you give up. This is not as good as it sounds - Skill difficulties are often set at Char level +10 in published adventures - 1/2 level won't get you far after level 7 or so. The villagers might want to burn the wizard, sorcerer or warlock but the charismatic bard is welcome in the village because of her talent with songs and music, poetry, dance, storytelling or jokes Or they might want to burn Bards and worship Wizards and Sorcerers as Gods - this is campaign specific stuff. Yeah - in a campaign where all wizards and sorcerers are recognized on sight and wanted to be murdered by all - the Bard certainly starts to look a little better.:rolleyes: I agree that bards dont suck. My 30 lvl bard beated my friend's phrenic warmage-warlock with 2 hits. I dealed about 220 damage per round. Most of us aren't playing 30th level campaigns...Bard's effectiveness at this level is not all that relevant. Unfortunately, pretty much everywhere I go I get crap cause I like playing Bards. I would never give someone else crap about playing a bard - just don't make me play one. Speaking of combat... the bard reigns supreme. His Bardic Music has a huge impact on combat. When the rogue's sneak attacks are getting steady thanks to that plus to attack, and the fighters doing even more damage on his multiple hits, and even the bard himself is jumping into the fray to shave off some HP. Are you replying to my last comment that Bards were great buffers by telling me that Bards are great buffers? Yes. Bard's are great buffers. Inspire courage can be pumped up to grant an advantage to all your allies - that is great buffing. If you like playing a character who's main purpose is the party cheerleader then there is no better choice than a Bard - it's not even close IMO. Not my cup of tea. However, I will gladly admit they are GREAT cheerleaders - I'm sure he was head of the cheerleading squad in High School. Yes - the bard can pick away with a whip or something once the buffing is done. He's not particularly good at it, but he can do it anyways. But bards buff themselves with the same action they use to buff someone else. You're not just buffing the party, you're buffing yourself as well. You can enter combat just like the rest of them. And outside of combat, you're still the main man. And when it comes to knowing stuff, you're the go-to guy again. Yep - Bards buff themselves too. Can't say that their inspire courage will do as much to buff themselves as if a cleric casts divine might - which was why I suggested that Bards were the best buffers though Clerics can buff themselves better. Or maybe the Bards have spells that make them better self buffers - won't argue with you if you say so - either way your spending your day buffing, which is why I'm not a big fan of either class. And I get your point that you can enter combat "like the rest of them". But lets be clear - it's not "like the rest of them" at all. A Bard's most effective strategy in combat is buffing with an inspire courage - after that - they are a medium BAB class without heavy armor, shield, or good HP. The Rogue doesn't have those either - but the rogue's ability that is supposed to make up for that (debatable) is Sneak Attack - which the Bard doesn't get. Never mind that the Rogue will have better physical stats on average (definitely Dex - probably Con - The bard might have better Str) A Bard in melee is like a stat-reduced rogue vs a Golem - not good. Outside of combat they ARE much better -though a wizard may be better overall for knowledges. (Bardic Knowledge versitility is nice - but the actual skills the wizard will have multiples of - and based on their primary stat.) They can do the knowledges fine overall - less specialized than a wizard but more broad knowledge. Hardly better. I might agree with "as good as". I still think your party is better off tanking your rogue for a Beguiler and skip the Bard.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 11:57 AM	I still think your party is better off tanking your rogue for a Beguiler and skip the Bard. Depends on the party, really. Bards are absolutely devastating when combined with summoners. Along the same lines, the larger the party, the more bang for the buck. Any party of 6+ will be incredibly enhanced by having a Bard. Essentially the more warm ally bodies, the better :)
Treantmonklvl20 08-26-07, 12:02 PM	Depends on the party, really. Bards are absolutely devastating when combined with summoners. Along the same lines, the larger the party, the more bang for the buck. Any party of 6+ will be incredibly enhanced by having a Bard. Essentially the more warm ally bodies, the better :) I can agree with that. Big parties do well with a Bard (as long as I'm not the one who has to play them). I would be very pleased with an NPC bard joining any party I'm in. I'm currently playing a Summoner in a Bardless party - not sure how well it would combine - but I certainly do well without one.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 12:07 PM	I'm currently playing a Summoner in a Bardless party - not sure how well it would combine - but I certainly do well without one. Think about it: +Inspire Courage on everything summoned. Every last one gets the +X to attack and damage, or +Xd6 energy damage. It combines quite well :)
The_Shaman 08-26-07, 01:09 PM	Er, may I suggest inspire courage with words of creation, inspirational boost, a MW horn, and lingering song? Sure, sometimes it takes something else than just giving everyone and their mommy a +8 or higher boost to attack, damage, etc. Luckily, sometimes bards can do that, too. Brokenly overpowered they ain't, but imo they can be worth having in a party. The main problem is that in the iconic 4-person party, they can be a little out of place unless they have to replace a full spellcaster - possible, but not their forte - or multiclass to be of full use as a rogue/skillmonkey.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 01:28 PM	Er, may I suggest inspire courage with words of creation, inspirational boost, a MW horn, and lingering song? Sure, sometimes it takes something else than just giving everyone and their mommy a +8 or higher boost to attack, damage, etc. Luckily, sometimes bards can do that, too. Brokenly overpowered they ain't, but imo they can be worth having in a party. The main problem is that in the iconic 4-person party, they can be a little out of place unless they have to replace a full spellcaster - possible, but not their forte - or multiclass to be of full use as a rogue/skillmonkey. In the iconic 4-person party I would actually peg them as the healer/buffer. They can heal at least as well as anyone but a Cleric, and buff better than anyone. A Druid/Druid/Bard/Conjurer party can be pretty wicked. Someone bites the bullet and takes a level of Trapfinder - probably the Bard, but it could be anyone.
OneWinged4ngel 08-26-07, 01:36 PM	In the iconic 4-person party I would actually peg them as the healer/buffer. They can heal at least as well as anyone but a Cleric, and buff better than anyone. A Druid/Druid/Bard/Conjurer party can be pretty wicked. Someone bites the bullet and takes a level of Trapfinder - probably the Bard, but it could be anyone. Actually, there are several bard builds that fill various roles, ranging from the very sneaky and skillful who can also be a great buffer with song, to the "fights better than a fighter" and "casts better than a sorceror" builds ('course, these involve PrCs and multiclassing)
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 01:40 PM	Actually, there are several bard builds that fill various roles, ranging from the very sneaky and skillful who can also be a great buffer with song, to the "fights better than a fighter" and "casts better than a sorceror" builds ('course, these involve PrCs and multiclassing) This is true. However, I was talking about a straight Bard, for simplicity's sake. Bards take very well to multiclassing and PrCs - they are one of the most versatile classes in that you can take a base Bard and specialize them in almost any direction. Believe me, I know what Bards can do. I love to play them.