Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yade 10-13-04, 11:11 PM	The bard should not be a base class, there is nothing that they can do that cannot be done by other classes and they don't do anything unique that makes them unreplaceable. At best it should be a "Musical Variant" or any particular class. A bard is essentially a rogue that can eventually cast some spells and plays an instrument, I would rather take a few levels as a rogue then change over to a spell casting class. A level 4 Bard vs a Level 4 Rogue / Wizard I would take the latter any day.
angryman 10-13-04, 11:19 PM	Yeah, bards do suck. I mean they can only inspire courage and heroism in a radius. (Which makes a huge difference to a big party) They can only cast a limited selection of spells up to level 6 (including some healing and nice enchantments)...and fight half decently. They get unique spells, (Glibness)but who cares? And wizards suck too. They can't even fight at all. Oh, by the way. A bard versus a rogue would do fine, since he can't sneak attack anyway. But that's not the point.
Dark1ord 10-13-04, 11:23 PM	bard is a support class, heavy on social skills. people who like doing what the bard can do are probably having fun doing it... it's like a sad blend between cleric (as for role) and rogue. I don't find it interesting either, but I can see how some people would. actually, if you removed the singing crap, it'd be a half decent class, but rather behind the others. me, I'd go with cleric or rogue any time.
ninjarabbit 10-13-04, 11:26 PM	Bards are good in small parties (3 or less) where they have to assume more than one role or in large parties (over 5) wher they can focus on being support characters.
Sensei Gith 10-13-04, 11:30 PM	You can argue all you want about its flavor or balance, but it is not a rogue. They share several superficial similarities, but their class features are nothing alike. Everyone repeat after me: the bard is not a rogue/sorcerer with music. To claim otherwise is to ignore the unique aspects of the bard and rogue, which overwhelm the similarities. angryman: I hope that the part about the wizard was sarcasm.
shift244 10-13-04, 11:30 PM	to quote from the "order of the stick" yeah. in a large group, you can easily fill in more specialized classes that are best at thier tasks. but in smaller groups a bard is indispensable. even in large groups a bard has more role to play in the role playing section. good cha as the sorcerer maybe, he's not so good on the people skills front. and the paladin has to juggle so many stats and skills.. that most players opt for the combat side of them the bard is not useless. unless the DM makes it so (with combat heavy campaigns etc). but that basically applies to all classes.
Dark1ord 10-13-04, 11:45 PM	we had this elf bard lady who got insane social skills... she sung, and she cast a bit of magic, and she talked to people, but her "strengths" seemed neglible compared to the strengths of others in the group. all she really did was stand in the background and sing. she had to multiclass to sorcerer to actually be important. but I still say those who want to play that perform-talk-support-buff-character can do so if they want! ;)
SgtHulka 10-13-04, 11:47 PM	Bards are good in small parties (3 or less) where they have to assume more than one role or in large parties (over 5) wher they can focus on being support characters. Okay, I can only really speak to the campaign I'm playing in, which is the Living Greyhawk campaign, and I can only speak to my local area, really. So take this all with a grain of salt (which you should always do when I open my mouth, anyway). Generally, within the parameters described above, Bards have a horrible rap. They are considered the lamest core class there is, even lamer than Monks. They absolutely stink in a stand-up fight. And in a campaign where death is a very real possibility, Bards are sometimes even seen as a liability. However, I've discovered that a ton of LG adventures are whodunnit mysteries. And personally, I'm really not that thrilled to spend hours and hours interviewing NPC's and trying to figure out who's responsible. Whenever it turns out that there's a Bard in the party I'm actually kind of happy. Because it means the Bard is going to be the one doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to actual role-playing, and the rest of us can just tag along until we finally get to knock some heads. Low-level Bards with 15+ Diplomacy ratings can really get NPC's to loosen their tongues and can convince sentries and gate-keepers to grant access to crime scenes or a suspect's living quarters. Try playing a mystery, with all the combat at the very end of the module, with a party made up of nothing but Dwarves and Half-Orcs, and you'll see the value of the Bard. Keep in mind, that isn't to say I'd want to play one. It's merely that I like having the Bard along.
Incenjucar 10-13-04, 11:52 PM	If you don't know how to play a bard, just accept (or change) it. Me, I find a bard is the easiest character to use to take over. Besides, who the heck starts singing all the sudden? Most singers practice (as in, diligently, not just "Twinkle Twinkle Little Beholder on weekends) sing from childhood on. It's a difficult skill. Especially when you're trying to create -magic- effects with it. No reason for it to be a PrC as the flavor has it.
Cade Hedger 10-14-04, 12:05 AM	If i remember correctly it states right in the class discription that the Bard is not supposed to be the best at any one thing, he is supposed to be deicent at everything. Would you want to use a bard as a front line fighter? NO but s/he does wonders running interference with the enemy adding damage where s/he can. Would you want to use a Bard as a primary spellcaster? NO but the bard does have a few handy utility spells they can cast to save the primary casters slots or to help the cleric heal the party. Would you want to use the Bard as a skill monkey? You could but a rouge will always have more total skill points, but by having the Bard handle most of the social skills and the rouge handle the physical skills the two make a pair that cannot be matched. It seems to me that most of you are roll-players and not role-players. A role player knows that its not your job to be the "best" at any one thing, its your job to make the party as a whole the best party it can be, the Bard is the best class for that. Bards fill in where parties lack and help fortify the parties strengths, so they end up being quite usefull in the hands of a resourceful player...
Yade 10-14-04, 12:09 AM	"I feel a song coming on" Need I say more. Yes... yes I do. The war rages on and this one fair dressed man steps up and pulls out his lute and starts signing. Aside from the enemy starting to laugh and being distracted a bit he would get hit with a few gratuitous arrows and shut-up. But seriously, a good sorcerer can be the talker of the party. His scores are based in Charisma and he is a bit chaotic by nature, and a little sadistic twist of magic is most likely a part of his nature.
BlaineTog 10-14-04, 12:14 AM	The bard should not be a base class,Others agree with you. Take a look at Unearthed Arcana for a 15 level Prestige Bard variant. Personally, I love the bard, and I don't think it works well as a PrC. The multiclass necessary is just too messy, and they really do need a unique spell list with full casting. But thats just me. there is nothing that they can do that cannot be done by other classesA) Thats kinda the point. Bards are Jacks of All Trades. B) Actually, they do have a few unique goodies (Bardic Music is very very hard to duplicate much less with any efficiency, and they have a number of unique spells that are really sweet). C) Its the synergy of theri abilities that makes them great. and they don't do anything unique that makes them unreplaceable.its why they fare the worst in 4-man parties. A bard is essentially a rogueThey are only rogueish insofar as they have great skills, a d6 HD, light armor, and some funky weapons. Thats pretty much it. that can eventually cast some spellsThey cast spells from level 1. and plays an instrument,Don't knock Bardic Music. Especially in a party with many fighter-types, its extremely powerful. I would rather take a few levels as a rogue then change over to a spell casting class.Do that then. No one will stop you. Just don't try to take my bard away. A level 4 Bard vs a Level 4 Rogue / Wizard I would take the latter any day.And I wish you well. But seriously, a good sorcerer can be the talker of the party.Not with 2 + Int skills and cross-class ranks for virtually all those skills. Ranks and synergies trump the ability mod to skills.
boytbpc 10-14-04, 01:13 AM	I play a bard in a five member party. My character is pretty much the quinessential bard, he balances spell casting, melee and bardic music. During non-combat situations my character runs the game. He is the voice of the party, earns money every night he's in a town, uses fascinate and suggestion to get his way, diplomacy, etc. During combat things change. I buff the bejesus out of my party members (+7 to hit,+3 damage, 2d10 HD, +1 on saves, etc.) Then after the 3rd or 4th round I'm free to have my fun. Instrument of the winds, song of festering death, sculpt sound of the enemy spellcasters to shut them up, hunters mercy wand and my bane arrows to pick off some baddies, emergency healing, emergency dispell, etc. Yeah, the wizards can cast cast more, the clerics can heal more, the fighters hit more, the rogue can find more traps, but I"m the only one who does it all plus buff the crap out of them and SUGGESTION 13 times a day PLUS Knowledge everything +13 (bardic knowledge). Boytbpc
Student Of The Mind 10-14-04, 02:23 AM	Yes bards are useless! Useless At Being Useless! God they really suck at being worthless! I really hate my bard for being the voice of the party, being able to put on a concert in a tavern with illusions and making piles of gold a night! Getting free room and board, free meals and drinks, and what really makes me mad is when my bard gets the Constable on his side because he is such a celebrety. I cant stand the fact that my bard has made it so the party is known across all of the land! I just cant stand those damn bards! :D Now I must go and wash all of this sarcasm off...Good gaming!
danielinthewolvesden 10-14-04, 04:19 AM	Bards are VERY "usefuL". They are NOT "powerful".
Kroll 10-14-04, 04:26 AM	Think the missing link here is that some classes are moreinherent roleplay classes than others. rogue and fighter and wizard are the core "dungeon crawl" classes. The other classes (excl monk(pfft)) has some form of rleplay aspect to them. Bard you choose to play because you want social interaction, and a class that supports that. Sorcerers although gifted with often high Charisma, has abit of the bard flavor, but well........Bard just sounds better... this is by the way in no means a way to say you can't roleplay with a fighter/rogue/wizard. D&D is a roleplay game, not a computer game where everylittle thing needs to be balanced....there is no need reason that everyone should have a fair chance against everyone else on any level. the vital point is that everyone shouldbe able to have fun at ANY level.
DM Zoc 10-14-04, 04:44 AM	Glibness is by far the most broken spell in the game, of any spell list.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother 10-14-04, 05:37 AM	The only problem that I have with bards is that they are so specific and narrow. Nearly every bard turns out the same. There isn't much versatility when everything is so reliant on Perform. Bardic music and spellcasting are what every bard gets, and not a whole lot else. One of the great things about most of the other classes is, even if the abilities are all the same, each character can be very different from another of the same class. True, bards can make themselves good at other things, especially when it comes to skills, but it's less true with them than other classes. Pretty much all bards are the singing, inspiring musicians. I think it's a valid, if limited, class.
CaoSlayer 10-14-04, 05:46 AM	Glibness is by far the most broken spell in the game, of any spell list. je je je, you havent saw Fanfare from Song and Silence... that bard only spell stuns and deafs everyone in a cone 1d4 rounds WITHOUT SAVE and if a fort save it is failled add more negative. The actual 3.5 bard it is nearly broken, it is almost a perfect multiclass character without loosing much and gaining more in other sides... as posted just show me a level 4 rogue/wizard multiclass stronger than a pure level 4 bard; a rogue 3/wizard have got only 1 wizard caster level a little more skill points vs 4 bardic caster level, being so the bard able to know level 1,2 and 3 wizard spells, -1 average hit points, -1 BAB worse saves and for the special stuff, a familiar, +2d6 sneak attack and evasion vs +4 bardic knowledge, a full load of songs usable 4 times a day, competence with better weapons and shields, being able to use those spells in light armor without faillure and just a 5% with a very aforable at level 4 mithril shield. So a level 4 bard it is a way better spellcaster, a way better tank having an easier time hitting things, althrought the rogue have the potential of making more damage and specially a better bard than a rogue 3 / wizard 1; for a wizard 3 / rogue 1, then will be a better caster, but no evasion, lesser HD, lesser skill points lesser BAB, lesser sneak attack, ect. The bard it is the ultimate balance character, and become very, very powerful if you focus in defense or making damage, being a better tank or damage dealer than a fighter, at level 8, with the more than a hour duration alter self, you can get +5 natural AC and then using blink iin the first round, makes you virtually duplicate your HP, for damage, cast haste and then sing inspire courage +2, and you will get +3 to hit, +2 to damage and an extra attack, matching the fighter better BAB and weapon specialization and having an extra attack over him... and the best thing it is that the party´s fighter will be not angry at you, because he will get also the bonuses and extra attack. And then, if you add splat books, the bard becomes broken, Words of creation means having a +4 to hit and damage inspire courage at level 8 instead of level 20, Arcane Strike means that you can burn low level spell slots for being better hitting and dealing damage than a fighter, a level 8, after being buffed, you will have a big load of level 1 and 2 that you arent to use and that means +1 to hit and +1d4 all a round for spell level. If you rate a bard in fighting without looking at the spell list, and the songs, then the bard sucks, this real potential comes when including the spells and songs, being then better fighter than a fighter. Of course, anyone now will say "Archer cleric", but think of how many times a day can become that godly archer and how have to spend several rounds without doing nothing in the fight, a bard using haste and/or inspire courage will be loved by this team mates ever if was thinking in just himself.
Zelphi 10-14-04, 06:27 AM	What? Do I have to defend Bards as well? Right, so you've got this guy who can buff himself and hoardes of others quite effectively, he can handle himself quite well and aid in a vast array of manors to the party effectiveness. He doesn't quite fill up one role, but a well build one can function in one. With metamagic wands he can heal better, with his skills in battle he can fight well and waste the enemies time whilst the rest of the party end things and he can help you out in town. He might not be able to do everything another can, but he can certainly hold his own. A party with a bard is one that's benefiting from all his abilities, and some of those can be damn effective.
Ayatoshi 10-14-04, 06:49 AM	Anyone here that is criticizing the bard obviously has no idea what they are talking about. Right now in one of my campaigns we just started and I am at level 1 have 400 gp 10 pp (started with 20gp after equipment) a Masterwork whip (most incredible tactical weapon) and I have killed 7 Goblins alone. Bards can be overpowering especially in groups. Anyone who says otherwise has either, never played as one, or at least never played as one well. Preform checks are awesome for gp and diplomatic abilities can get you items and just more gold by working out very good trades. Also don't make me go on the 1001 uses of grease rant (coined by my friend). So overall Bards are incredible as support and can use a whip (A 15 FOOT RANGE MELEE WEAPON!!!!!!! THAT TRIPS GREAT) and these people obviously have no idea of their great strengths. Don't question the Bardic Music!!!
angryman 10-14-04, 08:58 AM	angryman: I hope that the part about the wizard was sarcasm. Hehe, my whole post was sarcastic. I was just pointing out that the bard is not, in fact, useless. Bards are great. A lot of people don't like playing them as the noncy Elven prancy boys they are portrayed as. Here's an idea. Play a big Nordic barbarian-type, use a giant axe and sing great war-dirges to inspire your comrades and terrify your foes as you hew and slaughter. (Inspire Heroics on yourself, plus Inspire Greatness and a few other buffs plus Greater Heroism is terrifying, by the way) Anyone who calls you a wuss gets an axe in the face. You *don't* have to use an instrument, you *can* sing, and smack stuff at the same time. And your singing/playing doesn't have to be wussy either, that's just a silly stereotype. Or you could be a goth Vampire type with an electric guitar, and call yourself Lestat...er...hehe...kidding. :)
Saphiro 10-14-04, 09:07 AM	I completely agree. mY FREIND IS A BARD BECAUSE HE TOOK A LOOK AT THE PICTURE OF IT IN THE PLAYER'S GUIDE, SAW THE DAGGERS, AND SAID HE WANTED TO BE IT. IN OUR FIRST BATTLE, WHAT DOES HE DO? HE SAYS HE WANTS TO CAST MAGIC MISSILE. WHEN WE TELL HIM HE CAN'T, HE SAYS THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE A BARD AND THAT HE'S CHANGING CLASSES. WHEN WE EXPLAIN HE CAN'T DO THIS YET, HE FLIPS OUT AND HAS HIS CHARACTER KILL HIMSELF!IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1111 !!!!!
Bartleby_GoC 10-14-04, 10:22 AM	A-hem... A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. So... by level four, I have a BAB of +3, Weapon Finesse and Dex of at least 16 but more likely to be 18, so another +4. A MW weapon, so another +1. That's +8 to hit, without even looking at buffs from spells and bardic music. Elven chain (counts as light armor, no spell failure) so no reduction in dex. That's +5 armor (unenchanted BTW) and +4 Dex. With Combat Expertise, you're looking at an AC as high as 22 (restricted by BAB) and still has attack bonus of +5. All this without lighting up like a Sunblade every time someone casts detect magic. This doesn't count the fact that I've got a great chance of convincing those orcs to join us for a party before we fight. Then they're all drunk. A bard will never thieve as well as a rogue, fight as well as a fighter, or cast as well as a sorcerer. He will, however, get to do all three without fear of XP penalty, loss of BAB, or spell power. He will always have a back-up 'gig', so while the rest of the party is laid up waiting for the wizard to study his spells, the bard is bring in the coin instead of hemmoraging it at the inn. Heck, the bard probably used his encyclopedic knowledge to let the wizard know where the spell could be found in the first place, and I'll be able to use the scrolls he's making too. Bards LIMITED?!? Hardly. With careful feat choice, you can emulate most classes. Bards are so broad in scope that the exact same numbers can be used to create lots of different concepts. Spy. Jolly entertainer. Scoundrel. Scout. Dimplomat. Swashbuckler. Scholar. Since the same numbers work for all these roles, you can become whichever one is needed next. They don't fill a role in the party. They fill ALL of them. Bartleby
Yade 10-14-04, 11:33 AM	The only valid use of a bard that I can see is out-of-game comic releif. You could have the Mime Bard. Who's music is a pantomime. You could have the Gangsta Bard who has a halfling sidekick that is is little beat box. "Hit it Little Dewd" BRRRR chick chika uha uha uha "Loooky here mista evil wizza dees' soljas be the hizzle fajizzle and is gonna wax you." Or maybe you could have the Stand-Up Comedian Bard. Better yet a DM could give a player an extra 20% to his earned XP if he plays a Yoddeling Bard and acts it out during games. The XP bonus is going to be needed because he has to get ahead of the party in levels so he can eventually defend himself from them. Because no self-respecting party will let that go on for long.
CaoSlayer 10-14-04, 11:54 AM	and also remember that you dont have to be in the front lines for dealing good damage... a bow, a whip or a spear are great bard weapons, because you can damage the enemy while being outside of this threat range so you can focus in dealing damage... Once you get inspire courage +2 and inspire greatness with power attack and a spear, you can use those +4 to hit with power attack and so deal +10 to damage with each attack without any penalty (and you will get more damage with your str and maybe arcane strike). Also as pointed, you can use those bonuses to improve AC with combat expertise without hurting yourself... and if you are able to get windwhirl attack, you can use it with a whip being able to disarm every enemy in a 15' feet radius. :mymy:
Two Rivers Wolfbrother 10-14-04, 01:15 PM	Bartleby, my point wasn't that bards CANNOT be versatile, it was that each of them must be musicians, and most bards end up being the stereotypical bard. Yeah, you can be a spy. A spy who sings. You can also be a scoundrel who sings, a scout who sings, a diplomat who sings, a swashbuckler who sings, a scholar who sings. Or plays the flute, or drum, or lute, or bagpipes, or whatever. They are all performers. That's the ONLY thing I dislike about them. That said, I actually LIKE the bard class. I'm pro-bard.
CaoSlayer 10-14-04, 01:22 PM	little point: also can be an inspiring leader or tactician thanks to Perform: Oratory.
Kingside_Bishop 10-14-04, 01:34 PM	Bards are huge fun to play, if you know how. And they don't have to sing. In fact, one of my favorite bards does not sing. He recites epic stories during battle, or poetry. The bard is the best class if you want to be the go to man. When somebody needs something, whether it's healing, help convincing someone of something, or a little backup in a fight, they know they can call on you. Your fighter friend needs some help convincing the constable that he was defending himself in that barfight? Have a talk with him. Your rogue wants some company up ahead, scouting? Go right along. Cleric down, and needs to get back up? Go heal him. Wizard being cornered by a few nasty foes? A quick illusion of a man in full plate might just get their attention. In the middle of a thick fight? Some inspirational poetics might give everyone the lift they need, while you trip a few guys with your whip. What multiclass character could do all this? A rogue/cleric/wizard/fighter/bard? Even then, it's unlikely. Sure, the bard might not excel in any one area, but he's got alot of different skills. If you've ever been frustrated because there was something your character couldn't do, try playing a bard -- they've got quite the bag of tricks.
Yade 10-14-04, 01:38 PM	If you had to put an adventuring group together the bard would be way down on the list of participants. 1 lone adventurer one would probably choose a fighter or a wizard. 2 adventurers one would choose a fighter or a wizard with a rogue. 3 adventurers one would likely choose a fighter or a wizard along with a rogue and a cleric. 4 adventurers one would chose a fighter a wizard a rogue and a cleric. In the end a bard is a flavor that is added after the necessary classes are covered. Hence my argument that they are useless. In hind sight I can see that they are not useless, but rather valuable if room permits but expendable if numbers are limited.
Ayatoshi 10-14-04, 03:08 PM	All right now my friend just started an all Bard Campaign and we all are at level 1 and already are rich punks and are ready to level with our MW weapons and all this with him playing the SPOONS!!!!!
Thorak 10-14-04, 03:25 PM	In the end a bard is a flavor that is added after the necessary classes are covered. Hence my argument that they are useless. In hind sight I can see that they are not useless, but rather valuable if room permits but expendable if numbers are limited. Say there's two people. You suggest that it would be a fighter/rogue or wizard/rogue. Wouldn't it make more sense, though, to have a fighter or wizard and someone who, by sacrificing a wee bit of magic, can also buff, heal, etc? Bards aren't useless. They're like a half-powered Sorceror, Cleric, and Rogue all wrapped up in one class. And three halves make for more than a whole. In bigger parties, bards allow the other PCs to not have to fit into the limited party constructs you mention. In a 4 man party, for instance, you could have a combat-heavy Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter/Bard party. Not as much magical potential, but you've got some arcane power, some healing, and a whole heck of a lot more physical might. Especially when the bard adds Bardic Music to all three fighters. Bards are far from useless. They can make up for just about any whole in a party, and make non-standard partys work. And, they have their own abilities to boot. They can't outdo anyone in any specific area, but they can cover a whole lot more areas than any other class can at one time.
CaoSlayer 10-15-04, 07:28 AM	If you had to put an adventuring group together the bard would be way down on the list of participants. 1 lone adventurer one would probably choose a fighter or a wizard. 2 adventurers one would choose a fighter or a wizard with a rogue. 3 adventurers one would likely choose a fighter or a wizard along with a rogue and a cleric. 4 adventurers one would chose a fighter a wizard a rogue and a cleric. very curious... actually neither fighter, neither wizard are usually taken as lone adventurers, when you are alone, having the most features posible it is a must... so the most used ones, are as almost a fact (search about 1 player game and look it yourself) the cleric, the druid and the bard. same hapens with a two-three party member group, they tend to have classes able to make many things, like in a three member party, a skillful ranger with a healing rod and maybe a level in rogue for the traps, a blaster druid or tool wizard and finally a paladin a cleric or a bard for extra healing-muscle-spellcasting it is a real nice combo. of course, the rogue-fighter-wizard-cleric it is the clasical rpg party, but little people stays 20 years playing with all those classes together.
eggplantm 10-15-04, 09:18 AM	I can't believe people still say that the bard sucks. In the group I now play in which consists of the following: Bard 10, Ranger 10, Half-giant soulknife 9, Fire Shugenja 10 and rogue 8 (cohort) the bard is the consistently most useful character. Not to say he is the most damaging or has the greatest single effect but we always walk away saying that would have been a lot tougher without the bard. This is what he adds to the party 1. Inspire courage: usually done at the beginning of every fight. It is an incredible bonus to combat that makes everyone effectively specialized in their weapons. 2. Combat: the bard uses combat expertise and other buff spells to help out our combats. He has won some fights after everyone else was down for the count. 3. Helpful spells: the bard will often go invisible and walk around using several wands such as cure light and enlarge person as well as blink on the other members of the party. Use magic device is always kept at max ranks. 4. Healing: since we have no cleric, the bard is our magic healer. This has transitioned to the party's rogue and ranger a little lately however. 5. Social: Duh, anything that needs to be found out or worked out face to face is done by the bard. Sure the rogue could spend some ranks there but we need that guy to find traps and be sneaky. 6. Language: In our campaign, there is no common tongue (forgotten realms) and since the bard is the only class that has the speak language skill as a class skill, he picks up one every level and is often the only one who can do the speaking for the party. Because the bard contributes so much to the party as a whole I would say that many of our fights would be 20-30% tougher without him no matter what character class he was replaced with. I still fondly recall the time he disarmed an aspect of orcus using a whip and improved disarm. The shock on the creature's face was priceless
Yade 10-15-04, 04:56 PM	If I take two weapon fighting style and play a HILLBILLY Bard can I play the Jug and the Washboard at the same time and get dual magic effects.
MiloDragonbait 10-15-04, 06:01 PM	The only people that say bards are useless are the number jockeys that like to see 65 points of damage from themselves in one round. My 5th level halfling bard is just fine. No, I dont do as much raw damage as the fighter or rogue but my songs make things go better, my tumble skill makes me the perfect candidate to flank with the rogue and my spells free up buff slots from the other casters so they may use other stuff. The bard is there to make everyone elses job easier. And really, D&D is a team game. Not too many solo type adventures out there.
wamagni 10-15-04, 06:38 PM	All right now my friend just started an all Bard Campaign and we all are at level 1 and already are rich punks and are ready to level with our MW weapons and all this with him playing the SPOONS!!!!! That's BRILLIANT!! Playing the spoons! So much awesomeness. Bards own. They run around tripping and disarming and healing and buffing and being a skill monkey, plus playing music to lift up the party, and being the face of the party! AND he can walk around in a tavern inconspicuously. If a fighter comes barging into some noble's office, or something as innocent as a simple tavern in his full plate and his +5 flaming greatsword of stabbity death, what do you think the guards will do? A great wizard, crackling with energies and is backpack full of tomes and scrolls, and everyone will be cringing every time he motions for the barkeep to get him a drink. A bard is the best. You all should love them. Hoo-rah, i say.
Thermanshs 10-15-04, 06:58 PM	I'd greatly appreciate if people attained some more experience with the game before they accused the class system. Thank god that BlaineTog and Caoslayer already showed up :cloud9: Their word perfectly matches my beleifs
shades of eternity 10-15-04, 09:06 PM	I Loved the bard in 2nd edition, can't stand the standard (gifted) bards in 3rd. I so much prefer the learned bard as a base design. It makes so much more sense and is wayyy more useful.
mercurywyrm 10-15-04, 09:15 PM	I think I want to play a bard who recites haiku! While striking he says stuff like: A white leaf Wind blows faster than Autum falls Quiet shrew Worms eat and make dirt Loud cricket :cool: Or maybe a bard who specializes at battle tactics (Perform (oratory)) who gives his allies advice during the battle and inspires them with encouragements and wisdom. :cool: If there were a noisy weapon maybe I could take perform (weapon drill) and do that while fighting with the weapon, doing different drills as attacks. :cool: The bard doesn't have to be a psychotic, singing, fop. They can be dignified but part of a special school of combat, like one that treats it as a form of poetry and recites poetry while fighting and improves their focus and practice through metal exercises in poetry. Or like a master martial artist who fights scolding opponents with phrases like "Fools will allways be lead to death!"
Franco Un-American 10-15-04, 09:26 PM	Half-orc Drummer Dwarf Hornblower Orc Hollerer (hey, it could work) Elf harpist negroid gnome rapper (i've wanted to play one for a long time)
Yade 10-15-04, 11:30 PM	Very cool it's about time I got some playful feedback. I thought taunting all of these bards on this site that I would get some more creative rebukes. Aside from Senor Spoons and a few others most are just not using their imaginations. I suppose a Bard could use poetry, that would open the class to fun aspects like: The HOWARD COSELL BARD: (in a nasley sarcastic voice) Well it looks like the fighter is going in for the kill but is he going to make it, is he going to have the right rolls and the right luck. He has seen better days and that one that he had last round is still on his mind.... The JOHN MADDEN BARD: (in a dumb voice) Well this fight is cracking up to be the fight of the century. On the one hand we have the clumsy fighter and his cleric sidekick and on the other hand we have a crafty pair of kobolds. Let's see if levelling up helped the bobbling fools enough to get through this with their dignity. The kobolds are looking tough today, I have learned that these guys are worth 10 exp each..... The HAITE ASHBURY BARD: (dishevelled) RAGE RAGE RAGE haunts my verse I can't stop thinking of that chicken that we ate last night. KILL KILL KILL I have blood on my brain and I have to do the dishes when I get home. When does it end? WHEN DOES IT END?... Things could be so much more interesting...
Incenjucar 10-15-04, 11:50 PM	My bard, partially because he was dealing with a half-evil, and very cold-minded party, stuck to oratory (I gave him several high ranks in perform, so he had a choice elsewhere). So you have a bard with a silver tongue who can spout things like "Have no fear, our blades are their bane! Let your edge drink of them, your claws feast upon their screams! Onward, comrades!" Besides, you're the only base class with free proficiency in the whip. The WHIP, man.
Lina_Inverse 10-15-04, 11:57 PM	Think the missing link here is that some classes are moreinherent roleplay classes than others. rogue and fighter and wizard are the core "dungeon crawl" classes. The other classes (excl monk(pfft)) has some form of rleplay aspect to them. Bard you choose to play because you want social interaction, and a class that supports that. Sorcerers although gifted with often high Charisma, has abit of the bard flavor, but well........Bard just sounds better... this is by the way in no means a way to say you can't roleplay with a fighter/rogue/wizard. D&D is a roleplay game, not a computer game where everylittle thing needs to be balanced....there is no need reason that everyone should have a fair chance against everyone else on any level. the vital point is that everyone shouldbe able to have fun at ANY level. bard is not a roleplay class.no moreso than druid/rogue or ANY OTHER CLASS.roleplaying != highcha+diplomacy.and those are better done by a druid or rogue who are more usefull in combat. and D&D is not solely an rpg.it is also a wargame and hence must be balenced.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-15-04, 11:59 PM	Perform: Oration. There's something to be said about striding through the battlefield, longsword in hand, speaking in a deep, haunting baritone about a ceturies old battle while cleaving through your enemies like so much chaff because you were able to talk the local wizard into adding a few 'enhancements' to your weapon. Imagine how disheartened the enemy will become when their attacks finally win through, bypassing the illusion of a blur you cast, only to have you heal yourself before you floor them with the weight of true dispair. They only have time to goggle in awe, before your sword falls to cleave them in twain. And standing over their body, you throw back your haed and laugh 'Who's useless now?'
jktrondarr 10-16-04, 04:15 AM	If I take two weapon fighting style and play a HILLBILLY Bard can I play the Jug and the Washboard at the same time and get dual magic effects. only if you also sing the hee haw, or dukes of hazzard theme.
Cross Hatch 10-16-04, 08:06 AM	Have any of you actually played a Bard? Unlike a Sor, Bards start with a large number of social skills on their skills available list. Perform, by itself, allows you to gain the favor of powerful extraplanar beings. Just try to take out a Bard when he has the patronage of demigods. See how long that lasts. Rogues have a great number of skills, but there really is no way (outside of a Monty Haul game) they can get enough magic items and UMD to simulate all the Bard's magic. Sure, the Rogue may be able to sneak attack that raging Barbarian - he may, if the rolls are favorable, be able to take that Barbarian out in combat. The Bard, however, will just charm that Barbarian and use him as a weapon.
Naeron 10-16-04, 09:23 AM	"I feel a song coming on" Need I say more. Yes... yes I do. The war rages on and this one fair dressed man steps up and pulls out his lute and starts signing. Aside from the enemy starting to laugh and being distracted a bit he would get hit with a few gratuitous arrows and shut-up. But seriously, a good sorcerer can be the talker of the party. His scores are based in Charisma and he is a bit chaotic by nature, and a little sadistic twist of magic is most likely a part of his nature. That's a minstrel, I'd rather say that just before the fight the leather armoured figure steps forward and sings the saga of Beowulf to fill his allies with courage against the enemy. Bards will never shine in a very combat-heavy campaign but will in a sociallyoriented campaign, in a small party the can provide some healing and some arcane magic to a party that lacks a cleric and a wizard . In a large party they can provide boosts that stack with the other buffs that are handed out by the arcane and divine casters.
Waylander 10-16-04, 10:34 AM	I tend to agree.. bards suck... There are a couple of feats out there that I saw that really helped boost them. One was the feat in either Complete Divine or Races of Stone, where it lets you sing and you boost the other spellcaster's levels for their spells. Now that could be very useful... But in my opinion... bards should have gotten 1d6 sneak attack every 4th level, starting at level 4. That way they are truly Rogue/Sorcerer hybrid.
Ranthanas 10-16-04, 11:46 AM	I thought we'd got rid of all this "Bards are useless" nonsense months ago. Firstly, to whoever was saying that Bards are limited to being minstrels, I'd like to point out my The Lore of the Bard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=69857) thread in Redgar's Repository. Amongst other things, there are *9* fairly different PC archetypes listed that can be played with a straight bard (and that doesn't count the minstrel). Secondly, although a bard in unskilled hands is probably the most useless class in the game, in skilled and subtle hands there is almost nothing stronger overall. The Bard has the best social skills in the game- not even the rogue comes close. This is partly because he usually focusses on them, partly because of bonusses like Synergy from Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) but mostly because when it comes to social skills, the bard spell list is awesome. *Nothing* compares to Glibness with a moderate bluff skill attatched (and there are a number of other spells that put the bard's socials well beyond the rogue). Glibness doesn't even light up particularly strongly with Detect Magic... This is also ignoring the fact that Fascinate has the highest save DC in the game (Perform *check* vs Will?!?) and from there he can suggest to a near-captive audience. The bard is stealthier than the rogue or ranger (except in woods) - although he isn't as good a scout. Yes, he gets the same skills- but to the hide and move silently skills he can add Invisibility and the (pretty much broken) Sculpt Sound ability (which can render Move Silently redundant for the entire party and act as effective Silent Spell for the party...). A well-played bard in melee is almost impossible to hit- he's wearing armour (unlike Wizzies)- but can get +6 (or higher) AC bonus from Alter Self, doesn't need Expertise due to Tumble (+3AC for -4 to hit is worth it if it saves a feat). He also allows everyone else to do a lot better due to his buffs and to being able to tumble into place to help the rogue flank. In addition, he makes a great combat medic (clerics need to reach their targets to heal them- Inspire Greatness can be used from the far side of the fight (and can give a *lot* of hit points to high-con beings)) and can knock some people down with spells. I won't say it's easy to play a bard effectively - it's not. On the other hand, a well-played bard is one of the most flexible and useful characters in the game. (A poorly played bard is best used as a Polish Mine Detector). Hope this helps.
Lina_Inverse 10-16-04, 04:49 PM	The Bard has the best social skills in the game- not even the rogue comes close. This is partly because he usually focusses on them, partly because of bonusses like Synergy from Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) but mostly because when it comes to social skills, the bard spell list is awesome. *Nothing* compares to Glibness with a moderate bluff skill attatched (and there are a number of other spells that put the bard's socials well beyond the rogue). Glibness doesn't even light up particularly strongly with Detect Magic... This is also ignoring the fact that Fascinate has the highest save DC in the game (Perform *check* vs Will?!?) and from there he can suggest to a near-captive audience. id like to shoot this stuipidity down. 1.anyone can focus on him.druids can also focus on them as can rogues. 2.yes glibness is good,IF YOUR LIEING.the moment you tell the truth it dosent help.additionally all your spells are made moot by a +30 item,which is cheap as dirt. 3.and fasicate does what actully?get people to listen to you?dosent make them actully do what you say. 4.bards cant be lawful,one charm/dominate too many and you lose bard status.
darczero 10-16-04, 05:43 PM	One word: GROUPIES Aside from that, a Bard can be a very useful class. They aren't frontline combatants. That honor is reserved for Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, and to a lesser extent Ranger and Monk. They don't have the most skill points, or the most class skills; that's the Rogue. They aren't the best healers, but only because they can't raise the dead; look at your Cleric and Druid for that. They are lacking in blasting spells... definitely Sorcerer and Wizard there. However, unlike any other class listed, they can and do function with decent skill in all these areas at the same time. And they have their own abilities too; Bardic Music is nothing to laugh at. A Bard isn't supposed to be the best at any one thing (with the exception of Perform), but they are supposed to be good enough at many things.
Ranthanas 10-16-04, 06:03 PM	id like to shoot this stuipidity down. You might like to- but the only thing you seem to have shot is your own foot. 1.anyone can focus on him.druids can also focus on them as can rogues. Would you care to unpack this sentence? If you mean that anyone can focus on Diplomacy, that isn't the only social skill- and even if it is the only one you care about, bards are flat out better due to skill synergies. Yes, many classes can do diplomacy- but if "can do" is the same as "best as", there is no spellcasting difference between a bard and a wizard. 2.yes glibness is good,IF YOUR LIEING.the moment you tell the truth it dosent help.additionally all your spells are made moot by a +30 item,which is cheap as dirt. Wrong. What the SRD actually says is "You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words" - meaning that you keep it if you are telling the truth. Even if this was not the case, telling the truth doesn't usually require a bluff check- and slight lies are very easy. And last time I checked, 90,000GP* (and DM approval) wasn't cheap as dirt. Finally, the bonus from Glibness is unnamed, meaning that it stacks... 3.and fasicate does what actully?get people to listen to you?dosent make them actully do what you say. No, it doesn't (although it can allow you to give suggestions at a DC that stays good) - but there are plenty of ways of using the fact that they are listening to you and not to someone else to your advantage. If you can not think of any uses to e.g. keeping any guards distracted while the rest of the party sneaks past or casts their buffs, a bard isn't the class for you. Also, if they are listening to you, a lot of other things (like bluffing or diplomacy) become a lot easier. 4.bards cant be lawful,one charm/dominate too many and you lose bard status. What on earth gives you the idea that screwing with someone's mind temporarily is a lawful action at all? Even if it is, it is easy to keep yourself from becoming lawful- go and steal something. So that's -1 points** from 4 attempts. Try again. * Cost of a slotted skill enhancing item= Bonus squared * 100GP => 30^2*100=900*100= 90,000GP. ** 1 point deducted for getting the rules wrong on Glibness.
DM Zoc 10-16-04, 06:14 PM	I Loved the bard in 2nd edition, can't stand the standard (gifted) bards in 3rd. I so much prefer the learned bard as a base design. It makes so much more sense and is wayyy more useful. In 2nd edition, bards had a better experience table and so they would often end up casting spells better than the wizard did. Even if they didn't get access to higher level spells, their higher caster level would make the difference.
Lina_Inverse 10-16-04, 06:15 PM	Would you care to unpack this sentence? If you mean that anyone can focus on Diplomacy, that isn't the only social skill- and even if it is the only one you care about, bards are flat out better due to skill synergies. Yes, many classes can do diplomacy- but if "can do" is the same as "best as", there is no spellcasting difference between a bard and a wizard. anyone can focus on social skills.ontop of this rogues and druids and and,WHERE DID PERFORM ON DRUIDS GO!well at least rogues have all the social skills *sighs* Wrong. What the SRD actually says is "You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words" - meaning that you keep it if you are telling the truth. Even if this was not the case, telling the truth doesn't usually require a bluff check- and slight lies are very easy. And last time I checked, 90,000GP* (and DM approval) wasn't cheap as dirt. Finally, the bonus from Glibness is unnamed, meaning that it stacks... ok 90k gp isnt cheap as dirt,but if i need a lower bonus none too bad.also bluff "to convince others of the truth of your words"is quite clear in its meaning,bluff is used only to bluff someone ie convince them lies are true. no it dosent need dm approval,its right there in the RAW and not listed under optional. No, it doesn't (although it can allow you to give suggestions at a DC that stays good) - but there are plenty of ways of using the fact that they are listening to you and not to someone else to your advantage. If you can not think of any uses to e.g. keeping any guards distracted while the rest of the party sneaks past or casts their buffs, a bard isn't the class for you. Also, if they are listening to you, a lot of other things (like bluffing or diplomacy) become a lot easier. oh i can,but its not very heroic to talk with the dragon.im trying to slay it not convince it to terrorize elsewhere. What on earth gives you the idea that screwing with someone's mind temporarily is a lawful action at all? Even if it is, it is easy to keep yourself from becoming lawful- go and steal something. So that's -1 points** from 4 attempts. Try again. * Cost of a slotted skill enhancing item= Bonus squared * 100GP => 30^2*100=900*100= 90,000GP. ** 1 point deducted for getting the rules wrong on Glibness. suppresion of freewill is lawful.that IS the point of law and order afterall. and stealing as an ADVENTURER is evil.you dont need to steal to survive,makeing others worse off for personal gain is evil.
sorvikcorsair 10-16-04, 06:19 PM	The bard should not be a base class, there is nothing that they can do that cannot be done by other classes and they don't do anything unique that makes them unreplaceable. At best it should be a "Musical Variant" or any particular class. A bard is essentially a rogue that can eventually cast some spells and plays an instrument, I would rather take a few levels as a rogue then change over to a spell casting class. A level 4 Bard vs a Level 4 Rogue / Wizard I would take the latter any day. In one campaign I PC in I play a bard, we are now lvl 18, I can speak nearly every language with the Speak Language skill only taking 1 skill for a language. I played as a Gnome Bard. Starting stats with racial mods were STR 10; DEX 13; CON 16; INT 18; WIS 15; CHA 15 Yes I played my toon a bit nuts, but our group role plays more than the encounter, infact we earn more xp through Role play than encounters. I have saved out group countless times in situatuations where I was the only one who could speak the language of the land, and most my skills went into diplomatic skills. If I had played a rogue or caster, then we would surely of been in jail for doing some small thing to insult someone and not able to talk our way out of it. The bard is useful, just need to learn how to play one.
DM Zoc 10-16-04, 06:40 PM	A quick question for the Inverse person: What skill do you use to convince people of the truth of your words if you're not lying? The answer has always seemed clear to most people.
Ranthanas 10-16-04, 06:43 PM	anyone can focus on social skills.ontop of this rogues and druids and and,WHERE DID PERFORM ON DRUIDS GO!well at least rogues have all the social skills *sighs* Other than Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) for a further +2 to the diplomacy check. Oh, and spell synergy. Also Glibness, Alter Self and Eagle's Splendour (and others...). Rogues are good at social skills- but not as good as bards. ok 90k gp isnt cheap as dirt,but if i need a lower bonus none too bad.also bluff "to convince others of the truth of your words"is quite clear in its meaning,bluff is used only to bluff someone ie convince them lies are true. *sigh* You really shouldn't play bards. There are times you want to convince people of the truth when they have previously been told lies. The first (non-political) example that comes to mind is trying to convince people that the earth actually goes round the sun when they believe otherwise. Alternatively, trying to convince a prince that his grand vizier is embezzling from the treasury and plotting to take over the kingdom. In both these cases, you won't automatically be believed, despite telling the truth- and bluff is the skill used to convince people of such things. no it dosent need dm approval,its right there in the RAW and not listed under optional. No. The RAW specifically states that the costs given for such magic items are guidelines- which means DM approval and final costing are necessary. oh i can,but its not very heroic to talk with the dragon.im trying to slay it not convince it to terrorize elsewhere. 1: It's not very heroic to try to keep a creature that could swat you like a bug occupied by wits alone while something can be done. I guess that no hostage negotiator who goes in to talk with the hostage takers unarmed is ever heroic in your book. 2: Why do you think heroism is essential? Most PCs are heroic, but this isn't the same thing. 3: It depends what you do with the time gained while talking with the dragon. You could be making killing it far easier. 4: The ideal result is to convert the dragon rather than kill it anyway- convince it to work out an arrangement by which the villiagers feed it and it keeps the orcs away or the like. suppresion of freewill is lawful.that IS the point of law and order afterall. Voluntary suppression of free will and permenant. When dominate wears off, the victim is usually extremely upset which is extremely chaotic. and stealing as an ADVENTURER is evil.you dont need to steal to survive,makeing others worse off for personal gain is evil. It is both chaotic and evil. Unless it is stealing for a practical joke in which case it is merely chaotic. For that matter, the entire lifestyle of an adventurer is itself chaotic.
BlaineTog 10-16-04, 06:49 PM	anyone can focus on social skills.Yes and no. Most people get slammed with the cross-class cost. Those that do have the class skills to do it have to sacrifice those skill points that they really need elsewhere (despite what you may think, it is a very hard choice for even a high Int human rogue to pick up anything other than mabye bluff. Those skill points just need to be elsewhere). Bards arn't any more roleplay-oriented than other classes, but they are far more socially oriented. And they really are the best at this. JoAT + Uber at Socials + Music = Bard. ok 90k gp isnt cheap as dirt,I'd day its pretty darn expensive. Whats more, this item would stack with Glibness. but if i need a lower bonus none too bad.Bluff is an opposed roll. In other words, a higher bonus is always better. also bluff "to convince others of the truth of your words"is quite clear in its meaning,bluff is used only to bluff someone ie convince them lies are true.:uh-huh: You are spinning here. "Convince others of the truth of your words" is clear enough without sending it through your spinner. What else would you want to Bluff for, anyway? Fieghnting? Ha! Waste of time. no it dosent need dm approval,Its not in the DMG (doesn't even have precedent, either. Nothing gives a bonus to anything that high in the DMG). Therefore, its a custom item. Therefore, you need DM approval. Therefore, its a house rule. Therefore, its existence is irrelevant to the discussion. oh i can,but its not very heroic to talk with the dragon.Sure it is. Its not a cliche, I'll give you that, but being able to convince a frickin' dragon to tuck his tail between his legs and head on home is pretty darn heroic, if you ask me. im trying to slay it not convince it to terrorize elsewhere.You should be trying to defeat it. Slaying it is one (steryotypical) way of doing it, but as they say: there's more than one way to skin a dragon. suppresion of freewill is lawful.A case (a good case) can be made either way. Anyway, none of these types of spells have the [Lawful] descriptors, so they arn't inherently lawful. Whats more, the bard isn't not allowed to perform lawful acts. He's just not allowed to take more levels of bard if he becomes lawful. No CoC here. ANd even if he did have such a CoC, how couldyou possibly justify stripping him of his [u]arcane[/i] and extraordinary abilities? that IS the point of law and order afterall.Vitriolic statement, there. Highly unproven. Please don't use this as evidence, seeing as its not neccessarily true. and stealing as an ADVENTURER is evil.Then all adventurers are evil. you dont need to steal to survive,makeing others worse off for personal gain is evil.See above.
sorvikcorsair 10-16-04, 06:58 PM	Then all adventurers are evil. See above. Evil and Good is such a touchy subject, not for this board perhaps? Anyway, aren't Celetials who 'judge' Fiends and Devils evil to the F/D? Evil creatures are evil to those who are 'good', and good creatures are evil to those that are 'evil'. Adventurers steal from tombs, graves, dungeons. Obviously that stuff belonged to someone, so why take it? Rogues who pickpocket are not evil... that is their profession. They become evil if they kill to take those belongings. There are at least 1000 pros/cons to each argument.
CaoSlayer 10-16-04, 07:00 PM	anyone can focus on social skills.ontop of this rogues and druids and and,WHERE DID PERFORM ON DRUIDS GO!well at least rogues have all the social skills *sighs* Yeah, but ranks alone arent everything, firsly a high charisma helps a lot of... and while rogues or druids can get a hight charisma score... they will be weaker... a bard maxing out charisma in the other hand will become stronger thanks to higher spell stuff. And also it is USELESS having a +999 item to a check if you cant talk the other person lenguage... or if you are an elf rogue, trying to talk to drows it is like commit suicide. A Bard have speak language as a class skill, can learn the spell tongues, can hide this aligment and can alter this form into a drow or ever create an illusion of a false speaker. The bard it is the master of interaction, no contest posible. oh i can,but its not very heroic to talk with the dragon.im trying to slay it not convince it to terrorize elsewhere. but it is a possible option, for a big bang just use inspire courage +2 and greatness you friend barbarian with power attack will make +10 to damage without losing nothing... suppresion of freewill is lawful.that IS the point of law and order afterall. So succubus demons, master of supresion of the will and charming creatures should be pretty lawful, isnt? read again aligment, please... A chaotic dude have not trouble ruling others by the force, he have troubles being ruled by someone or ruling people by they will.
Ayatoshi 10-16-04, 10:59 PM	I love playing as Bards it's a good influence in life to be the charismatic person... plus the right bard can take out any other PC... point and case: It was the end of my friends last major campaign at the end of the school year... they decided to start over in the fall... so they decided to kill off each others characters in a tourny... he won with a level 18 Bard without and Multi classing... he was undefeatable... HOW IN GOD'S NAME CAN YOU BEAT A DIETY!!!!!! He was actually through some of the most ingenious role playing able to gain companionship with a greater demigod... he would buff himself up like crazy then go invisible and Summon something like a Chain Devil and then completely disarm his opponent li\eaving him helpless and would always have backup dispells ready That is what inspired me to have a Bard as a PC it's just Amazing
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-16-04, 11:12 PM	anyone can focus on social skills.ontop of this rogues and druids and and,WHERE DID PERFORM ON DRUIDS GO!well at least rogues have all the social skills *sighs* Rogues are the only other class that comes anywhere near bards in pure social power. And they don't even focus their abilities on charisma nearly as much -- that is, rogues don't have as much to gain by having a high charisma as bards do. Other classes, such as the paladin and sorcerer get snippets of social interaction skills, but "snippets" of those social skills do not cover nearly as much ground as the bard does. ok 90k gp isnt cheap as dirt,but if i need a lower bonus none too bad.also bluff "to convince others of the truth of your words"is quite clear in its meaning,bluff is used only to bluff someone ie convince them lies are true. ??? Huh? Care to clarify that mess of words? Statements like these seem to make me think I've ADD, cause I can't keep my attention to it. perhaps a space after each punctuation (that would be the , and .) as well as other forms of punctuation. But before I move to your next block of sentences and generic statements, I'll just say that Bluff is the single most powerful skill in the game, seconded only by the more useful spot and the second most powerful skill, diplomacy. oh i can,but its not very heroic to talk with the dragon.im trying to slay it not convince it to terrorize elsewhere. Like Blainetog said, it can indeed be very heroic (probably more heroic, in fact -- just not the cliche' "knight in shining armor fights dragon until death and saves the damsel in distress." Which is fine with me.) Even more heroic (and benificial) would be convincing the dragon to be an ally. suppresion of freewill is lawful.that IS the point of law and order afterall. Yes and no. This varies heavily upon circumstances. However, Dominate Person/Monster and like spells/powers/effects are not aligned. and stealing as an ADVENTURER is evil.you dont need to steal to survive,makeing others worse off for personal gain is evil. stealing isn't aligned (or it might be chaotic, I think.) but definately not evil.
baerdith 10-17-04, 04:37 AM	A spy who sings. You can also be a scoundrel who sings, a scout who sings, a diplomat who sings, a swashbuckler who sings, a scholar who sings. Why? take ranks in Oratory. Then your spy tells a story, your diplomat negotiates, your scholar lectures but this is only for Bardic Music.
Ray Venn Hakubi 10-17-04, 08:15 AM	I'll just post my examples and be done with the thread. Two bards. Two situations. Situation 1: human Bard in a 16-th level Psionics party (8 members). Giant Stone Golem for an enemy. The Psions levitate the Golem off the top of the tower. The Bard talks to the Lolthan Priestess who was controlling it. The Lolthan lets him get close enough to have a conversation. The bard starts trying to seduce her because everything else failed. The bard gets a slit throat. The party gets killed by four lvl 18 drow Monks. Situation 2: Feytouched Bard in a 1st-level core party (three members). The party is knocked out and captured by goblins. Four guards on the other side of a locked grating. The bard casts Charm Person on one of the goblins, who releases them from the cage. Uses her spell-like ability to charm the others. The wizard stares blankly. The fighter looks at his fist, and tries to find an axe. The bard not only gets the whole party free, but locks the goblins in their own prison cell. As you can see, Bards are best at low levels. That bard, by the way, had also managed to triple the party's fortunes and get the party a quest.
Thermanshs 10-17-04, 08:59 AM	Totally agreed with DarkAngel, you see I don't have time to spare on such bogus claims but luckily someone else has :D
Pfisiar 10-17-04, 09:58 AM	Bard is a class that is situationally dependent on what type of campagin you are planning on joining. A simple hack/slash dungeon crawl is not going to be that enjoyable for a bad. But a storytelling intensive campagin will find many good uses for a Bard, or at least I'd hope so. Never underestimate the power of high charisma, that's my motto.
Yade 10-17-04, 10:03 AM	A bard is not that necessary. A paladin or a Rogue can do all of the talking and charming if they need to. A bard is a flavor that is addded for fun, not a necessity. That being said a bard can be for fum, like many other prestige classes they are available for people tp explore alternate situations. I admit that it would be boring if all groups were the same 4 classes.
Thermanshs 10-17-04, 10:15 AM	Yade..just an advice, Before complaining about a class or even a rule in the system know that sometimes things aren't as obvious as they seem. Do you know what I said when I first bought my PH and took a look at the barbarian's rage? MAN! This class rocks! These strength bonuses and HP increase make him godlike! What a fool I was... :eek: Play your game and if you find something that doesn't fit your purpose just ignore it. Beleive me that there are millions of others that can prove you wrong anytime and this depends on each person's experiences as well as being able to spot things all round than focus on some limited use of what you may call useless.
Yade 10-17-04, 10:55 AM	And after giving it a thorough look I can see no reason for it to be a primary class. It should either be a prestige class or a variant of the other classes. Furthermore the "class skills" of many of the base classes need to be adjusted. After many years in the military diplomacy and sense motive should be class skills for the fighter OR they should create starting packages for the fighter that change the class skills for the PC based on background. For example they could have the Soldier variant which gives them some diplomatic skills but requires the player to have a minimum CHA. In the case of the bard they should allow a musical variant to any other class but require them to have a CHA that would support such a package.
malisteen 10-17-04, 12:22 PM	Forgive me if somebody said this, it's a long chain and I might have missed it. Bards can often prove useful when playing in a party with some of the other non-archetypal classes, including Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians, Monks, and Druids. A party relying on a druid for their divine magic may appreciate the bard's ability to supplement the druids healing abilities with his own, for instance. In the Druid/Barbarian/Bard/ranger combination, everyone but the barbarian eventually has some healing to bring to the field, which can be very powerful, as it frees up some of the druid's spell slots to use on some potent druidic offensive spells. Additionally, nobody in this party is weak in flat out melee. The barbarian and Ranger are dedicated combat character, the druid can wild shape into a dangerous creature, plus summon a couple decent nature's allies for flanking and attacks of opp, not to mention the bear that's always following her around, and the wolf that follows the ranger. And the bard isn't exactly terrible in melee himself, and all of them are benefiting from the bard's inspire courage ability. Both the ranger and the bard can have decent stealth abilities, allowing for two-man scout parties that much safer then the usual 'rogue go check it out' plan. The only thing the party's really weak in is the ability to detect and disarm traps, but even then, the barbarians uncanny dodge, trap sence, good hit points, and good fort save all make him a good guiney pig to test out any potentially traped areas. But the bard in this party is crucial. Since the druid can't convert healing spells, when she runs out of those she's memorized she's just out, so the bards magic could end up being indespensible. Furthermore, with so many figures participating in combat (six before summon nature's ally and leadership are considered), bardsong becomes increadibly potent, giving the party the edge they need to overcome a fewer number of more powerful enemies quickly, before any of the party ends up dead. And how would you theme the bard to match this wilderness themed party? Not all bards have to be effeminate prancing ninnies with lutes. In this party you'd be something of a tribal chanter. In combat your bardsong would take the form of a wordless throbbing warchant, while in a tribal setting your roll would be performing the tribes histories, famous battles, and religious beliefs, taking on the religious roll. In terms of prestige classes, once the ranger starts casting his own curative magic, this bard might choose to sacrifice spell progression for better combat augmentation abilities a la the warchanter prestige class. But, wonky groups of non-standard classes asside, in the typical group of fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric the bard is known as the best fifth member, and everybody's best friend, as he can help out in most any roll, either directly assisting or indirectly using his musical abilities to make the other members just better at what they do. As for bardic music being lame to begin with, that really depends on how your DM works it into the setting. Have you ever had the experience of losing yourself in music? Just putting on the headphones and just letting the world fall away? Or have you ever been walking along and hear some music in the distance and realize that, before you even conciously heard it, you had shifted your pace to match the rythem? Almost spiritual, isn't it? Kind of primal, you do it instinctively, without noticing. Now think about D&D, where every even half-spiritual aspect of the real world is something huge and powerful, do you really think music isn't important enough to be the same? A bard isn't just a prancing performer, that would be an expert, a bards performances resonate with a greater chord that runs beneath all of existance. Many oragin mythes are based largely on music, and music features heavily in many pantheons. Apollo didn't just fly the charriot, he also played the lute, and took it so seriously that he flayed the skin of a man while he was still alive just for having the audacity of claiming he was a better musician then the sun god. (take that D&D calling Apollo NG!) In fact, music and musicians of supernatural skill and ability are all over Greek Myth, performing wonders great and small, even taming Cerberus with the beauty of their songs! Tolkien's middle earth, the foundation of most fantasy gaming, was itself sung into existance by a choir of arch-angels, under the direction of a creator-god, and features a retelling of the biblical 'war in heaven' story entirely based around music. So bardic music, rather then being the most trivial kind of magic, could be the most fundamental, depending on your campaign.
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 12:29 PM	And after giving it a thorough look I can see no reason for it to be a primary class.It doesn't work well as a Prestige Class, IMO. It should either be a prestige class or a variant of the other classes.Some agree. Check out Unerthed Arcana. After many years in the military diplomacy and sense motive should be class skills for the fighter OR they should create starting packages for the fighter that change the class skills for the PC based on background.This is a problem with the fighter. Look a page or two back (mabye its even on the front page) for the Composite Fighter Fix.
Ranthanas 10-17-04, 12:59 PM	A bard is not that necessary. A paladin or a Rogue can do all of the talking and charming if they need to. A bard is a flavor that is addded for fun, not a necessity. That being said a bard can be for fum, like many other prestige classes they are available for people tp explore alternate situations. I admit that it would be boring if all groups were the same 4 classes. Um... What class is necessary? A good three person party can consist of Bard/Druid/Artificier. Note the absence of all iconics- and then tell me which bases aren't covered (both the Druid and the Artificier can tank).
Thermanshs 10-17-04, 01:53 PM	And after giving it a thorough look....bla...bla... Exactly my point! If a thorough LOOK is enough to convince you about how a class functions then am I supposed to be a moron when I misjudged the barbarian after MY thorough look? I don't think so.What you miss is experience and I don't blame you for this. Just play and through the years you'll see the answer in front of you.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-17-04, 02:55 PM	And after giving it a thorough look I can see no reason for it to be a primary class. It should either be a prestige class or a variant of the other classes. Furthermore the "class skills" of many of the base classes need to be adjusted. Oh please.... the same has been said about virtually every class in existance. Even the "core four" fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue. Bards, however, work significantly better as a base class. Bard is a class that is situationally dependent on what type of campagin you are planning on joining. A simple hack/slash dungeon crawl is not going to be that enjoyable for a bad. But a storytelling intensive campagin will find many good uses for a Bard, or at least I'd hope so. Never underestimate the power of high charisma, that's my motto. I think that depends entirely on the bard. A bard in Eberron that I'm playing now is quite good at melee combat, though he still needs a front-liner to take most of the hits, he's still pretty good at it -- and he can only get better at it, between buffing spells, inspire courage, and eventually getting arcane strike and craft magic arms & armor (so he can always have good enchanted weapons -- he can hire other spellcasters or use other party members for special abilities.) As he levels up, he'll only get better and better at melee combat.
Lord_Naerik 10-17-04, 04:59 PM	After a "thorough look" over this thread, I have concluded that Yade has virtually no actual play experience. A LOT of stuff in the PHB looks like it doesnt work (for whatever reason) until you use it (and I mean honestly use it) in play. In short, browse the classifieds, get yourself a gaming group, and try PLAYING the game.
Nithendil 10-17-04, 06:58 PM	Currently 9th level, started at level one, playing a skald like bard with oratory and a battle horn. I'm the only one in my party so far that has not fallen. I am contempt with the bard :) If I need to, I can get my AC higher than the tank (alter self). I can go invisible, sneak around, re-appear and suggest an enemy to turn on his friends. I keep cursed items on me at all times to give as suggestion “presents”. With a battle horn, my inspire courage is awesome (our party is 1 fighter, 2 rangers, me the bard, and a geomancer). Our battles go so much longer without it. With haste, I am the party’s crack dealer. Sure, a wizard/sorcerer could cast that spell, but I find they’re usually too busy blasting. I admit, I suck in melee. But honestly, I find I have little time to melee. I always have something to do, if it’s using cure wands, disabling the enemy with spells, inspiring courage, or buffing our party. I just purchased a custom-made longsword that when unsheathed blasts battle-hymn music with trumpets and drums to accompany my war chants (what I call my bardic music) on the battle field. Yah, not as effective as a longsword of death, but it’s cool as hell.
Yade 10-17-04, 09:00 PM	It's one thing to disagree with me but its a sign of total resignation if you have resorted to calling me an inexperienced newbie. Pues, I have said that bards can be fun but no one has sufficiently given reason as to why they would be a higher pick on the team than anyone else. Think of a dodgeball game where all of the core classes are players and realize that the bard gets picked last.
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 09:10 PM	It's one thing to disagree with me but its a sign of total resignation if you have resorted to calling me an inexperienced newbie.Thats not what we said. We think you lack experience with the bard. Which, from the way you've described your knowledge on the subject, is (in all probability) true. Care to refute this? Its also a total sign of resignation if you can't attack our arguments. Just that we think you haven't played a bard. Pues, I have said that bards can be fun but no one has sufficiently given reason as to why they would be a higher pick on the team than anyone else.We have too. You just glossed them over. Think of a dodgeball game where all of the core classes are players and realize that the bard gets picked last.No, bard gets picked 5th, after the primary niches have been filled. Pick pretty much anyone else and you have 2 players vieing for the same role.
Yade 10-17-04, 09:59 PM	The last time I personally played a bard was in the mid 80's in a secon edition game, I don't mind admitting to that. But I have played with bards in a party and have DMed games with bards in them. Just because I disagree does not mean that I did not read or understand what anyone said on here. I simply do not agree. I rescinded the part about them being totally useless, in retrospect it is hard to be totally useless. But I still contend that the class would be better off as prestige class or a variant. I have also made it clear that it is ludicrous for the other classes such as an educated wizard or an experienced fighter to not have the same diplomatic skills that a bard does. How many classes were shorted skills and vital aspects because the developers were trying to make a bard useful?
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 10:07 PM	The last time I personally played a bard was in the mid 80's in a secon edition game, I don't mind admitting to that.A) A-HA! B) Then why were you attacking our argument on a point that was completelly true? But I have played with bards in a party and have DMed games with bards in them.And you still find them less than optimal? Well, as we've said, Bards are harder to build than other classes. Just because I disagree does not mean that I did not read or understand what anyone said on here.Thats not what we are saying. From your responces, it seemed to be the case. But I still contend that the class would be better off as prestige class or a variant.And I still contend that it doesn't work well as a Prestige class (evan a 15 level PrC) from a mechanics POV. As for a variant? A variant of what? Its so different from every other class, and yet so similar, that one could make a good case for making it a variant of any, and you'de end up something identicle I have also made it clear that it is ludicrous for the other classes such as an educated wizard or an experienced fighter to not have the same diplomatic skills that a bard does.Why should it be ludicrous? Fighters fight, wizards spellcast. Most classes specialize because the game is built around the idea of teamwork. Bards make great 5th party members because they can help to synergize everyone, pick up the slack here and there, and be a face ontop of it. How many classes were shorted skills and vital aspects because the developers were trying to make a bard useful?1: Sorcerer (it got shafted for a lot of other reasons, too). The fighter archetype doesn't generally include the idea of a talker. Heck: the class is called Fighter. Its not realistic. Its not supposed to be. But it works. If you want a fighter that has Diplomacy as a class skill, you'll have to talk to your DM because most D&D classes are specializers.
Yade 10-17-04, 10:21 PM	Anyone who knows anything about real combat knows that the smarter a fighter is the longer he lives. I propose that brute fighters should never live long enough to see level 10. Being smart and having the ability to figure things out is key to surviving. In a hack and slash game I could see your point about fighters being brutes, but in a role-playing game the wizard and fighter might very well be characters that need to do some talking. Like I have said before, people are afraid to give these classes that type of credibility for one of 2 reasons; they themselves lack versatility and therefore cannot justify it in fictitious characters or they have this imaginary belief that they are maintaining some kind of game balance. Bards study music, if anything that should make them more hermit-like than the wizard or the fighter. Any argument you can make for a bard to have these skills I can directly apply that to other classes. The 3.5 rogus gets so many skill points to facilitate being a skill monkey or a "jack of all trades", and they could easily replace a bard. A paladin with musical ability and some knowledge skills should be able to do the same.
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 10:33 PM	Anyone who knows anything about real combat knows that the smarter a fighter is the longer he lives.A) "Real" combat != D&D combat. B) Thats feats. Specificall, Combat Expertise (IIRC). I propose that brute fighters should never live long enough to see level 10.They would in a world with magical healing. In a hack and slash game I could see your point about fighters being brutes, but in a role-playing game the wizard and fighter might very well be characters that need to do some talking.Then they either A) talk off their Cha mod (Diplo does use set DCs), B) suck up the cross-class ranks, or C) work with their DMs to get the class skills (Oberoni Fallacy, I know). Like I have said before, people are afraid to give these classes that type of credibility for one of 2 reasons; they themselves lack versatility and therefore cannot justify it in fictitious characters or they have this imaginary belief that they are maintaining some kind of game balance.Ad hominem fallacy. Fun fun fun. Bards study music, if anything that should make them more hermit-like than the wizard or the fighter.Because music is introverted, right? No one ever shares theri msuic with others. The 3.5 rogus gets so many skill points to facilitate being a skill monkey or a "jack of all trades", and they could easily replace a bard.Rogues do not enough skill points. Sad but true. The best race for the rogue is the Human who sinks an 18 into Int. Whats more, there's a difference between being a skill monkey and being a JoAT. A paladin with musical ability and some knowledge skills should be able to do the same.That'd be a multiclassed Bard/Pally. In that order.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-17-04, 10:35 PM	Anyone who knows anything about real combat knows that the smarter a fighter is the longer he lives. I propose that brute fighters should never live long enough to see level 10. Being smart and having the ability to figure things out is key to surviving. In a hack and slash game I could see your point about fighters being brutes, but in a role-playing game the wizard and fighter might very well be characters that need to do some talking. Like I have said before, people are afraid to give these classes that type of credibility for one of 2 reasons; they themselves lack versatility and therefore cannot justify it in fictitious characters or they have this imaginary belief that they are maintaining some kind of game balance. This is just silly. No one is saying that fighters or other classes aren't smart. Just specialized. No one has said that fighters or other classes, like the cleric and paladin or wizard or sorcerer or whatever can't talk their way into or out of something. We ARE saying that bards are vastly superior at doing all of the above (that is, anything that the other classes aren't specialized in doing) AND that bards are superior in overall versitility among all of the core 11 classes. Bards study music, if anything that should make them more hermit-like than the wizard or the fighter. bards don't "study" anything. They "practice" music. However, their practice would be wasted without an appreciating crowd. In addition, they're the only class that can actually get music from their performances (not just necessarily music.) Therefore, there's no possible way that bards could be "more" hermit-like than the wizard or fighter. Of all the classes, they're the ones that thrive on being social. Any argument you can make for a bard to have these skills I can directly apply that to other classes. The 3.5 rogus gets so many skill points to facilitate being a skill monkey or a "jack of all trades", and they could easily replace a bard. Rogues are indeed better than bards concerning skills, overall. However, they're not as knowledgeable nor do they have nearly the magical capabilities that bards have, which actually make bards better at fighting than rogues (when not sneak attacking,) in certain ways. A paladin with musical ability and some knowledge skills should be able to do the same. No they wouldn't. They don't get perform, nor do they get bardic music, nor do they get anywhere near the number of different things that bards can get. Except fighting, bards are better casters and are far more knowledgeable than paladins, in addition to being better at social graces.
dalmagar 10-17-04, 10:37 PM	But I have played with bards in a party and have DMed games with bards in them. I can just imagine. "OK, so you're all in a bar, and the local mayor offers you 1000 GP to clear out the nearby ruins of trolls. You all ride out to the ruins. OK, tell me your marching order."
Yade 10-17-04, 10:48 PM	Ad hominem fallacy. Fun fun fun. I wasnt attacking anyone, I was simply stating that it should not be so unimaginable that fighters or other classes ahould be versatile. My statement was not directed to you but was rather a reference to Des Cartes' associative principal in which people cannot think out of the scope of their own experience. Because music is introverted, right? No one ever shares theri msuic with others. Music is very introverted. Achieving mastery in music is a long and arduous process, much like we imagine mages in D&D. An inexperienced person thinks that someone can pick up an instrument and whip out music, the truth is that years of study are required before mastery can be attained. And no one wantes to hear someone practice, hence being alone alot. As for your combat question I have quite a bit of experience with real life combat and I have to reiterate that a great deal of intelligence is required to stay alive. I can think of soldiers and officers that I was on duty with that scared me, they scared me because they were just like you imagine a fighter to be. I assure you that a dumb fighter is a dead one.
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 10:54 PM	I wasnt attacking anyone, I was simply stating that it should not be so unimaginable that fighters or other classes ahould be versatile.Which, in a medium qhich all but requires imagination, is an attack. My statement was not directed to you but was rather a reference to Des Cartes' associative principal in which people cannot think out of the scope of their own experience.Thats a bit presumputuous. It belittles the human ability of empathy (and imagination). Just because someone else said something doesn't make it true. And no one wantes to hear someone practice, hence being alone alot.They do when its a bard. Because Bards are inherently good at it. Its a talent that they developed to the point where it produces magic and the supernatural. As for your combat question I have quite a bit of experience with real life combat and I have to reiterate that a great deal of intelligence is required to stay alive.A few facts you are forgetting: Most people IRL don't exceed 3rd level. At 3rd level, you do die if you don't play smart. Unless, of course, your wounds can be completelly healed in less than 6 seconds.
Yade 10-17-04, 11:03 PM	You are still lacking in any vital reason why a party needs a bard. The only valid reason is for some fun roleplaying. This is why they should have made it a prestige class or a variant.
aelryinth 10-17-04, 11:19 PM	most modern soldiers would be warriors and experts. the expert ranks would be most officers, with a great deal of skill ranks in things pure fighting experience doesn't cover. Only the most elite of our fighting corps would be Fighters. And their expertise at their trade would be obvious. The world doesn't like straight up and do brute battle heavy footmen anymore...most of our elite troops nowadays are rangers, not fighters. We don't have shock troops. So, comparing an officer (expert/warrior) to a normal grunt (warrior 1-2) to a sergeant (warrior 2-4) to a SEAL or Ranger or LRRP (ranger 2-4+), you get a big difference in skill ranks and focus. And a great number of situations requiring skill ranks dealing with military hierarchy, protocol and orders in situations could be dealt with by a profession (soldier) skill...those are the skills relevant to being a soldier, not just fighting competently. ==Aelryinth
BlaineTog 10-17-04, 11:25 PM	You are still lacking in any vital reason why a party needs a bard.Hardly. Bards are good because they A) are by far the best face men, B) Buff extremely well, and C) help the other classes function better (the rogue gets a flanking buddy, and doesn't have to spend skill points on social skills; someone else to target besides the fighter, in addition the the bonuses from Bardic Music; the cleric's healing load is lifted, and he can get healed if he drops; and the wizard doesn't have to waste spell slots on many of the enchantments. In addition to other things). The only valid reason is for some fun roleplaying.Which is, apparently, invalid. This is why they should have made it a prestige class or a variant.For the final time, many think it should be a PrC, but many more do not. If you want to use it as a PrC, fine. Just don't go throwing around "should."
Loopy 10-17-04, 11:32 PM	Wow... even in the bygone days of 3.E ******* and moaning the Bard naysayers never called the class "useless." Very poor choice of words, that. The Bard is the kind of character that, if he doesn't have a solution to every need/problem, he will be able to find one.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-17-04, 11:37 PM	You are still lacking in any vital reason why a party needs a bard. Aside from Blainetog's completely correct ascertation, it isn't just one reason to play a bard. There are classes that can do one or perhaps two things the bard the can proficiently in a superior manner. Bards are the most knowledgeable class in the game. Ever. The wizard might be more knowledgeable in a certain field or another, but bards know everything with excellent proficiency. Beyond being good at doing a lot of what the other classes can do, they can do nearly everything else as well. A bard will never heal as well as a cleric or druid. Never fight as well as a fighter (in most instances) or be as good at being a skill monkey as a rogue or as good of a caster as a wizard. But they can do all of the above. And then some. The only valid reason is for some fun roleplaying. One of the many reasons, sure. This is why they should have made it a prestige class or a variant. While some people prefer it that way, it just doesn't work nearly as well as if it were a full base class. Not even close. It doesn't work well at all as a varient. You haven't even stated a specific class for it to be a varient of. The concept of a Bard is a stretch, as far as being a varient for any class, that WotC has produced thus far to say the least.
Yade 10-17-04, 11:57 PM	The image of some idiot standing in the middle of combat singing along "Frodo of the nine fingers la........." is not heroic, it's ludicrous.The idea of someone performing in the middle of death and destruction is a pitiful thought. And why music, there should be another aspect of the bard that is not so silly.
BlaineTog 10-18-04, 12:09 AM	The image of some idiot...If you don't like the flavor of the bard, thats fine. Don't play one. But don't insult it either. *Smites Elitism*
Yade 10-18-04, 12:16 AM	That was not elitism. You seem to have a need to label things, am I allowed to say that or is that too ad hominem of me? There is a realistic silly nature of stepping up to a fight with a lute, or a flute or something similar. "Grab the pipes marge I'm going into battle..." The bard army is out to get me and I will hear angry music in my sleep, ugh.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-18-04, 12:20 AM	The image of some idiot standing in the middle of combat singing along "Frodo of the nine fingers la........." is not heroic, it's ludicrous. Oh please. There are songs throughout history and literature sung before, during, after, and all the time in between battles and during war. Particularly in pitched, drawn out battles. Hearing music during a battle is even a mainstay in the general media -- particularly in fiction, documentaries, and hollywood movies. The idea of someone performing in the middle of death and destruction is a pitiful thought. :rofl: Not by a long shot. And why music, there should be another aspect of the bard that is not so silly. decent BAB, 6 + INT skill points, the best skill list in the game, spellcasting, good weapon proficiencies, bardic knowledge are all invalid here, eh?
BlaineTog 10-18-04, 12:38 AM	That was not elitism.You think yourself better than a bard. Thats elitism in my book. You seem to have a need to label things, am I allowed to say that or is that too ad hominem of me?I will freely admit that I like to see neat little labels around fallacious statements. Not people, of course. That would just be stupid. But statements are fair game. Of course, your post is ignoring the issue at hand and attacking me. Which is, of course...
Yade 10-18-04, 12:55 AM	I don't think of myself better than abard because I have never compared myself toa bard. I stand by my observation that wading through death does not make someone want to sing. It is very callous to assume it does. The only fallacy left to discuss is whether or not you think this argument is winnable by one side or another, because it is not. I'll take another full cleric anyday over the bard. Another wizard or rogue would be great as well.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-18-04, 01:14 AM	I stand by my observation that wading through death does not make someone want to sing. You do know that people play music at a funeral, right? You can stand by your opinion that people won't use music during a battle, but people do. Its recorded in history and you can even google it. The[/url] belligerent but courageous Ba people sang their songs during fights with the neighboring Chu State. The songs were later spread to the central plains. They used a pass in the Qutang Gorge to confront and escape from the Chu soldiers. and another Prior to the industrialization of war in the nineteenth century, music served a number of major military functions. It served in conjunction with physical drill to enhance the effect of the latter, as a source of inspiration before battle, and as a device by which the morale of one's own troops was maintained or that of the enemy weakened during combat. In addition, musical signals were deployed as a means of command and control. In these capacities, music was a significant multiplier of fighting power. It also magnified the effect of military ritual and display, whose purposes could include military or political aggrandizement, recruitment, or entertainment. These noncombatant activities remained the principal justification for large investment in military music by the world's armed forces in the twentieth century, even after the advent of much more effective weapons and systems of conveying information had eliminated most of the battlefield utility of musical morale building and communications. I came across an insteresting website called "bardic Titles." (http://members.shaw.ca/elenelears.notebooks/titles.htm) It is very callous to assume it does. It isn't an assumption at all. The battle and/or death itself doesn't provoke the bard to do anything. The bard sings or performs some other audible performance during a battle to raise morale, inspire a feeling, or do something else to that effect. THe bonus to attack, damage, and will saves vs. fear is all a --morale-- bonus, after all. The only fallacy left to discuss is whether or not you think this argument is winnable by one side or another, because it is not. Whether you wish to accept it or not, you are wrong on the above matters. I'll take another full cleric anyday over the bard. Another wizard or rogue would be great as well. If that's your preference, you're certainly welcome to it.
Yade 10-18-04, 01:33 AM	I am perfectly aware of pipers on the hillsides during Scottish battles and the fife and drums used in colonial combat situations. Guys riding into baghdad had heavy metal pumping through their tanks, I can see that is a reality. The difference is that you are not marching or standing on a hill or are a recorded song in an armored vehicle. No, you are a prancing fool amidst death and destruction. Even in Tolkein's novels the bards were a tavern thing, not a combatant. The playing of music at funerals generally takes place after the killing is done, see the difference. The bard is the jack-of-all-trades, which by definition means that he not particularly good at anything. He is the master of none. This reinforces my assertion that the idea of having a party of "heores" or "powerful adventurers" is defeated by the inclusion of such an "average" person. If you were a bard during the tavern times and a fighter in combat I could imagine that being useful. Let's not forget that the higher level the party goes the more and more you become expendale. With the exception of the Holy Grail in which the minstrels were very useful, they ate them when they ran out of food. Phillip the lithe bard walks into the tavern and says "OK guys I have new strings on my harp we can go fight those baddies now, tee hee...." We all know that he is just what they were waiting for, he was the edge that they needed.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-18-04, 02:11 AM	I am perfectly aware of pipers on the hillsides during Scottish battles and the fife and drums used in colonial combat situations. Guys riding into baghdad had heavy metal pumping through their tanks, I can see that is a reality. The difference is that you are not marching or standing on a hill or are a recorded song in an armored vehicle. No, you are a prancing fool amidst death and destruction. Even in Tolkein's novels the bards were a tavern thing, not a combatant. Given that D&D doesn't take place when tanks and modern military stuff doesn't, y'know, exist and these settings all take place even before our own equivelent colonial times, this "prancing fool" isn't out of place at all. Furthermore, the significance of said music didn't dwindle, according to the website, until the early twentieth century. Which means that all of my claims are completely valid for virtually all D&D campaign settings. Furthermore, the "prancing fool" comment you used to refer to the bard is a completely false stereotype. The playing of music at funerals generally takes place after the killing is done, see the difference. See that I also referred to military combat as well. Covering all grounds, you see. The bard is the jack-of-all-trades, which by definition means that he not particularly good at anything. He is the master of none. This reinforces my assertion that the idea of having a party of "heores" or "powerful adventurers" is defeated by the inclusion of such an "average" person. Except he is good at being: the party buffer (spells and bardic music,) the know-it-all (bardic knowledge), and is second-to-none as far as social skills go (emphasis on charisma as the bard's important stat & all social skills are class skills, including speak language) If you were a bard during the tavern times and a fighter in combat I could imagine that being useful. If that is true, then your imagination appears to be limited. Let's not forget that the higher level the party goes the more and more you become expendale.With the exception of the Holy Grail in which the minstrels were very useful, they ate them when they ran out of food. Heroes’ Feast Conjuration [Creation] Level: Brd 6, Clr 6 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Feast for one creature/level Duration: 1 hour plus 12 hours; see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You bring forth a great feast, including a magnificent table, chairs, service, and food and drink. The feast takes 1 hour to consume, and the beneficial effects do not set in until this hour is over. Every creature partaking of the feast is cured of all diseases, sickness, and nausea; becomes immune to poison for 12 hours; and gains 1d8 temporary hit points +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10) after imbibing the nectar-like beverage that is part of the feast. The ambrosial food that is consumed grants each creature that partakes a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and Will saves and immunity to fear effects for 12 hours. If the feast is interrupted for any reason, the spell is ruined and all effects of the spell are negated.
CaoSlayer 10-18-04, 05:57 AM	The image of some idiot standing in the middle of combat singing along "Frodo of the nine fingers la........." is not heroic, it's ludicrous.The idea of someone performing in the middle of death and destruction is a pitiful thought. And why music, there should be another aspect of the bard that is not so silly. it is like talking about "some idiot armorless and that cant hit anything with a sword making strange symbols and getting bat´s guano from a bag..." or an armored guy praying for this god without doing anything. They are just casting spells, The thing it is that each make it in a diferent way, and the bard way it is the sound, someone hearing the bard will feel stronger more capable of beating the enemy, equally if the wizard after making that stupid "dance" throws a fireball. The most important thing of magic are the results, not how you do it.
CaoSlayer 10-18-04, 06:20 AM	The most important thing of magic are the results, not how you do it. That recall me to the greatest fantasy bard: the flautist of Hamelin, Yeah, he was a weird guy dressed in white-black and with a pimp hat feather included... but he was effective in this work and if someone tried to fool him this revenge was terrible, ever without pulling a sword or bringing destruction... The magic of music is powerful.
baerdith 10-18-04, 08:10 AM	The image of some idiot standing in the middle of combat singing along "Frodo of the nine fingers la........." is not heroic, it's ludicrous.The idea of someone performing in the middle of death and destruction is a pitiful thought. And why music, there should be another aspect of the bard that is not so silly. I guess so, if that's how you want it. But consider just a moment the RL Celts. Bards talked a lot, and their talking bY ITSELF could stop a war. Three words from a Bard and Seamus will never get another girl. Another three words and Sean will have to beat them off with a stick. Three more words and Chief Dermott has had his face literally cursed off. On the battlefield most Celts had a bit of bard ability: There is the famous Celtic Battle Cry said to make the enemy pee in their boots literally. A few well placed battle cries and the whole army is jazzed and ready to tear the enemies head off, and the enemy is one step away from heading for the hills. And finally: "Never get on the bad side of the Bard, somewhere, somewhen there was a language in which your name meant something really bad, and the Bard probably knows it."
eggplantm 10-18-04, 09:09 AM	Okay, I've got a story to relate about a bard character that was played this past sunday. We were just discussing how bards are incredibly useful to a party but that many do not like them because they don't have the ability to do something spectacularly powerful in combat like land a critical hit for huge damage or blast an opponent for immense damage, etc. They assist everyone else and make their jobs much easier. Anyway, that was the discussion; bard have no incredible displays of power. In the course of playing, we stumbled upon three dracotaurs collecting a ransom from a city. We knew there was a dracotaur lair nearby that held several hostages from this city and we needed to find it. The bard cranked up a fascination attempt (one use of bardic music) the save was tough and they all failed. Now, he can keep this going for 9 rounds and during each round he can attempt a suggestion on one target. whether the target makes his save or not, they are still fascinated and the bard can attempt the suggestion on another target or simply try again on the same target, until he fails his save. Ideally, he could even use multiple different suggestions on the same person and really screw him up as suggestion does not require a daily use of bardic music. Now, assuming I interpretted the rules for how fascinate and suggestion work for bards, I call this very powerful. The DC equal to a bard's perform check can get higher than any spell we can cast and the fact that he can attempt suggestion as many times as he wants until the fascinate runs out means the target is likely to eventually fail the save. This would mean that higher level bards could effectively have the jedi mind trick going on but with better results. My question is this: Am I interpretting the rules for bardic music, fascinate and suggestion correctly? If so, I call them a very powerful and very dangerous class indeed.
CaoSlayer 10-18-04, 09:54 AM	yes it is as powerful... the only caution point it is that anything dangerous will break it, so you cant use it in the middle or a fight... or if your mates get impacient and charge against them. some masters make the fascination ends if a sugestion fails, this is based in the text about enchantments of how the target of an encht. have a funny sensation if gets this save. (also the caster knows if the spell had got effect if was single targered but not if multi-targeret)
Thermanshs 10-18-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels If that is true, then your imagination appears to be limited. After all this talk I can tell this for sure
Yade 10-18-04, 01:19 PM	After all of the colorful bards that I have mentioned here you still think that my imagination is limited. What more do you want, the Flying Trapeeze Bard who sings opera while doing flips and juggling. I think I have demonstrated a great deal of imagination. Which insult will the evil bard army hurl at me next.
malisteen 10-18-04, 03:37 PM	The bard who sits still in the middle of combat singing to himself is an idiot. this is because there is nothing in the rules that says he can't sing to himself WHILE tumbling about and poking things with a rapier, unless he's singing to cast a spell, in which event I don't see playing the lute to cast a spell to be any less stupid then yelling 'moo moo cachew' and sticking a lit candle up your nose. Here's an in character description of inspire courage by a tribal warcaller type bard, who's concept is based around reliving ancient battles to remember and appease the ancestor spirits. The party draws their weapons as the two dozen orcs close, a hopeless battle. Bjeld growls under his breath as nocks an arrow in his shortbow, the sound making you think of great stones grinding against each other. As he and the ranger draw their bows back the sound shifts to a deep, throaty call, and takes on a throbbing rythem. At the upbeat the arrows fly, at the downbead two orcs fall dead. The beasts crash into melee, and you lose track of the sound under the din of battle. But as Bjeld and the ranger join you in combat with their swords, their bows discarded somewhere behind, you can hear the throbbing chant again, and you realize your striks and parries had matched the rythem the entire time. Slowly the sound of battle fades away and your sword, your skull, the very ground itself seems to pulse in time with Bjeld's gutteral voice. As you and Bjeld simultaneously dispatch another two orcs, you realize that there are words in his chant now (or weren't there always?), sung in Bjeld's native toung. Though you don't understand the words, images flash in your mind, great heroes of old, cloaked in furs standing against unspeakable beasts. You can almost feel their spirits entering your body, guiding your hands. Upbeat, block. Downbeat, kill. You marvel as your blade carves patterns through the air to reach the throats of your enemies, performing maneuvers you didn't know you were physically capable of. And just like that, it's over, the orcs dead at your feat. The ranger starts collecting snouts for the bounty. As the fading echo of the warsong drifts away, as the images it conjured slip from your memory like a dream, you can't help but feel that, just for a moment, you were part of something far greater then the death of two dozen orcs. Bjeld stands silent, staring into the rising sun, and his home far away in the East. Which is all just to say that there are many ways to visualize bardsong, and if you're stuck with the prancing ninny singing 'Frodo of the Nine Fingers' it's only because you haven't tried to imagine something cooler. And if you want something a bit more evil, try a torturer. Often a boot & loot campaign doesn't leave much opportunity or use to social skills, but a torturer using his high cha, the intimidate and proffession [torturer] skills, some spells to make your opponants minds weaker and keep them alive, and an inspire competance from humming a pleasant little ditty as you twist the thumbscrews on the goblin you caught, can get you all sorts of useful dungeon knowledge, like how many of what kinds of monsters populate a given dungeon, or who and where their leader is, or what traps there are, along with how to get past them.
Loopy 10-18-04, 05:13 PM	With the exception of the Holy Grail in which the minstrels were very useful, they ate them when they ran out of food. Why are you guys still humoring this guy? He's obviously trolling; goading you into further fruitless discussion. I'm done.
MiloDragonbait 10-18-04, 05:29 PM	"Useful" is in the eye of the beholder. Will your bard outdamage your barbarian? Unlikely. Will he blast away with arcane fury better than a sorcerer/wizard? Doubtful. Will he pick the lock after disabling the CR 20 magical trap? Probably not. What he will do is buff the party, countersong sonic effects (essentially cancelling command and other spells), heal, use a wand of lightning bolts, convince that ogre that his cohorts are going to kill him after the fight so he should fight for you, talk the mayor into allowing them to set up their guild in his city (and even convince him that he should pay them...long story) and maybe even melee a little (with the proper feats. Im currently playing a swashbuckling type bard/fighter with spring attack, weapon finesse etc etc). No, Im not a mainline tank or the mobile artillery platform. Im better. Im the Swiss Army knife for our party.
ganda1f 10-18-04, 06:09 PM	I'm currently playing a 1/2 Orc Fighter with the social skills of a brick through the window in a 5 character party and, I have to say, I would never leave home without the parties Bard. 1. The Bard is great for talking us out of hopelessly hostile situations. 2. I've lost count of the number of Saving throws I've *only just* made thanks to the Bards catchy music. 3. The Bard is the only member of the party who can heal the cleric. Very important when your Cleric takes an ogre-club to the head. 4. The Bard can take care of herself in combat. Sure, she's not kitted out like a Barbarian, but she can still lend a hand in combat and do that little bit of extra melee damage. I could go on, but ... a Bard is a great class. In a campaign that swings from Combat to Roleplaying situations frequently, life becomes much easier when you have one with you. Perhaps a Bard doesnt' become an unimaginably powerful gribblemonster - but then again, the Fighter isn't regarded as the ultimate tank of destruction. It's the all purpose versatility that gives the Bard it's power - when you're ambushed at night, or the Cleric walks into a trap, or Harpies paralyze the party with song ... bring me my Bard.
Mirror, Mirror 10-18-04, 07:26 PM	Perhaps a Bard doesnt' become an unimaginably powerful gribblemonster - but then again, the Fighter isn't regarded as the ultimate tank of destruction. It's the all purpose versatility that gives the Bard it's power - when you're ambushed at night, or the Cleric walks into a trap, or Harpies paralyze the party with song ... bring me my Bard. Uh oh. You just said that versitility counts for something and brought up the fighter. Now, not only will nobody listen to you, but you will be wrong untill you agree Wizards the the best class in creation. The Wizards Guild has decreed it so... But, hey, if you get that useless Bard to talk them out of it...
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-18-04, 07:31 PM	After all of the colorful bards that I have mentioned here you still think that my imagination is limited. And when haven't you referred to the bard as being, essentially, a prancing, singing fool? I, among others, have stated what a bard can do. What more do you want, the Flying Trapeeze Bard who sings opera while doing flips and juggling. That being a combination of sleight of hand and perform checks. Now what about everything else a bard can do? I think I have demonstrated a great deal of imagination. Which insult will the evil bard army hurl at me next. This is exactly my point, you've referred to the bard thusly: Flying Trapeeze Bard prancing fool some idiot Mime Bard Gangsta Bard. Stand-Up Comedian Bard Yoddeling Bard HILLBILLY Bard HOWARD COSELL BARD JOHN MADDEN BARD HAITE ASHBURY BARD All of these bards that you've referred to are either using a perform check to achieve the above results, or perform and sleight of hand. (Perhaps intimidate and leadership for the "gangsta bard.") This requires all of one or two maxed skills out of all of the bard's capabilities, of which the bard has in prodigeous number, in addition to a little roleplaying in that direction. However, as I've said, the bard is capable of so much more. Despite your claims that you've exhausted the number of bards that are possible. EDIT: The Bard I'm presently using, for example, is, simultaneously, the party's skill monkey (while the party rogue is the only one that can find traps, my bard is better at being a rogue otherwise), healer, arcane spellcaster (he's found enough items at this point to emulate one surpriseingly well), and fighter, thanks to his buffing spells and he'll be getting illusions (such as displacement, blur, and mirror image) to help quite significantly. In addition, he's the primary character that's keeping the plot going, thanks to a combination of his high intelligence and bardic knowledge and gather information, among other things. Further, as an interesting side note, he consistantly claims to be any class he needs to emulate at a moment, except a thief (because the Lawful Good Monk is constantly watching him and is generally suspicious of him.) Though playing him is quite fun. EDIT II: And that Ted Nugent, what a wuss. "It's TED Nugent." "Yeah, I know - Taed Nugent" "But the shirt says "Tad"" "I know, isn't it cool?" "It should say "Ted" not "Tad"" "I don't see a problem." "It's spelled with an E, not a A!" "Ooooohh..." Approximate paraphrase of a "That 70's Show" moment. One of Fox's few good shows that they still run that hasn't been cancelled. (Like Family Guy & Futurama... grumbles....)
Mirror, Mirror 10-18-04, 07:36 PM	Personally, I really like the gangsta bard. I'm gonna play a Drow gangsta bard in an urban setting: "Just like thos uppidy high elves to try an run us outta town. Just like the lady said. Tey is always just tryin to keep the black elf down!"
Darkstealth 10-18-04, 09:05 PM	The image of some idiot standing in the middle of combat singing along "Frodo of the nine fingers la........." is not heroic, it's ludicrous.The idea of someone performing in the middle of death and destruction is a pitiful thought. And why music, there should be another aspect of the bard that is not so silly. So, here we all know that OF COURSE all bards have to sing or play a Musical Instrument, and it is impossible for them to just talk, say a poem or so much as clap their hands. You are right, singing a song without compassion is ludicrous, but since when has the Bard not practised music? Bards are so great at music because they bring compassion into it, with a mixture of magical arts. Even when singing the warmfuzzly song if he sings it in a certian way (do not forget about the magical things. Even though there is no spell that can help him with compassion I think, and I'm too lazy to look it up, he still has an inner-music.) I like the idea of the Gangsta Bard, though. :D Phillip the lithe bard walks into the tavern and says "OK guys I have new strings on my harp we can go fight those baddies now, tee hee...." We all know that he is just what they were waiting for, he was the edge that they needed. Phillip walks into the tavern with a small smile on his face, his eyes set, a longing blazing in them. He takes up his harp and says, "I am ready." He is just the edge they needed. If you do not RP and use a Bard well, then no hope will come but honostly, who would say, "I have new strings in my harp and I'll fight those mean old baddies because my mommy told me! Teehee!" You need to know how to use a Bard, how to RP well so you can pick just the right dialouge. However, that's one kind of the Bard. There are many many diffrent kinds of the Bard. So, the Bard is average, right? Okay, the Commener is Average. Lesse... hmm, Bard is uberly superior to the Commener. One Final Note: NEVER... SAY... MUSIC... IS... WORTHLESS... *insert extremely angry emotion*
baerdith 10-18-04, 10:20 PM	Phillip the lithe bard walks into the tavern and says "OK guys I have new strings on my harp we can go fight those baddies now, tee hee...." We all know that he is just what they were waiting for, he was the edge that they needed. Uh Huh. Yeah. Gene Simmons is a real pansy. And that Ted Nugent, what a wuss.
Yade 10-18-04, 11:00 PM	I don't even think bards are useless, anymore. But someone playing a bard is clearly taking a hit on the things that they will eventully be able to accomplish, in character, and they are going to become useless once the party gets to higher levels. Maybe if they pumped the class up a bit or it they made them actually really good at something that the other calsses can't do, and I don't mean music because the music simply duplicates, at a lower level, other magical abilities.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-18-04, 11:25 PM	I don't even think bards are useless, anymore. But someone playing a bard is clearly taking a hit on the things that they will eventully be able to accomplish, in character, and they are going to become useless once the party gets to higher levels. Right now, my bard character that I mentioned is, by far, the single most useful character in the party. A party with a sorcerer, ranger, a monk, a cleric, a fighter, a fighter/rogue, and one other class that I can't seem to remember atm. I can't see how this will waver once I hit the upper levels, except everything that my character is good at now, my character will be vastly better at doing at higher levels. Maybe if they pumped the class up a bit or it they made them actually really good at something that the other calsses can't do, and I don't mean music because the music simply duplicates, at a lower level, other magical abilities. Pumped up the class? There are only two things the bard class is bad at. that is Fortitude saves and taking hits (cause of their d6 HD). That's it. They're decent or better at virtually everything else. Why on earth would they need "pumping up?" Anything more would be grossly overpowering. Things the bard can do that other classes can't: Bardic Music makes the bard the best, quickest, and most efficient buffer in the party -- between inspire courage at all levels, inspire competance, inspire greatness, fascinate/mass suggestion, and inspire heroism, no one else is outbuffing the bard without expending serious amounts of prepared spells/spell slots to equal -- let alone surpass. Particularly since the bard also gets most of the best buff spells in the book on his spell list. Bardic Knowledge makes them more knowledgeable than anyone else. Bard skills and skill points and emphasis on charisma makes the bard better at social graces, overall, than any other class by a wide margin. Then there's the fact that not only is the bard decent, though not necessarily better than at filling in for any of the class roles in a group, but the bard still is decent at numberous other things. Lastly, as far as "I don't mean music because the music simply duplicates, at a lower level, other magical abilities." Not only does hte bard get most of these spells on his spell list, but the bardic music's "duplication" of these effects are much more efficient and harder to resist than their equivelent spells. Of course, the only music effects to my knowledge that hte bardic music duplicates is fascinate, suggestion, freedom (break enchantment) and mass suggestion. The other 5 musical effects are uniquely the bard's perview. Though the bardic music version of all of these is superior than their equivelent spells in this form and can be used much more often.
Dur6! 10-18-04, 11:28 PM	dude bards are disgusting, they have some seriously broken spells and abilities, such as glibbness and sculpt sound, and just try going for bard-evangelist...its disgusting.
BlaineTog 10-19-04, 12:11 AM	But someone playing a bard is clearly taking a hit on the things that they will eventully be able to accomplish, in character, and they are going to become useless once the party gets to higher levels.Both these statements are false. Very few can approach the number of things the Bard can do. *Clearly,* this is one thing the bard is *not* taking a hit in. Inspire Courage only gets better as the party levels, in more ways than one. Firstly, the actual bonus to hit and damage increases. Secondly, +1 at 20th is worth a heckuvalot more than +1 at 1st. The higher up you go, the more expensive boni get; pretty much all of them increase quadradically (+4 -> +5 enhancement bonus is a lot more expensive than +1 -> +2, for example), and since they don't stack with each other, you can eventually run out. Morale boni are fairly uncommon. Maybe if they pumped the class up a bit or it they made them actually really good at something that the other calsses can't do, and I don't mean music because the music simply duplicates, at a lower level, other magical abilities.Name one class that does something that another cannot do as well. Wizards cast spells... but so does nearly everyone else (heck, if we count UMD and cross-class ranks, everyone can cast spells). Fighters melee... but so does nearly everyone else (heck, if we count stuff like Tenser's, everyone can melee). Clerics heal... but so do quite a few of the other classes (heck, if we count stuff like some of the monsters you can get with Summon Monster and Polomorph, everyone can heal). Rogues are skill monkeys ... but everyone gets skill points(heck, if we count cross-class ranks, then technically everyone can use any skill at all).
Thonili_Moonbringer 10-19-04, 12:25 AM	I like the bard/warchanter I've been playing. Not only me, but my party cries out in anguish whenever he's split from the group, missing out on the Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Legion, and Bardic Knowledge.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 12:33 AM	I'd love to play my old L12 bard, Evanius against whatever character Yade can roll up.
Yade 10-19-04, 01:08 AM	My fictitious character is bigger than yours. Oh please, not only is that silly but the mere fact that you are offering to pit a bard vs anything that I might choose is ludicrous. But it is fun to see people that are so gallant. Thanks Darkest of Angels for this list: you've referred to the bard thusly: Flying Trapeeze Bard prancing fool some idiot Mime Bard Gangsta Bard. Stand-Up Comedian Bard Yoddeling Bard HILLBILLY Bard HOWARD COSELL BARD JOHN MADDEN BARD HAITE ASHBURY BARD I almost have my own expansion book, I have a few more up my sleeve if you want to hear them. My only question is if "prancing fool" and "some idiot" should be feats or class skills?
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 01:23 AM	My fictitious character is bigger than yours. Oh please, not only is that silly but the mere fact that you are offering to pit a bard vs anything that I might choose is ludicrous. But it is fun to see people that are so gallant. You might be surprised...
Yade 10-19-04, 01:39 AM	I am willing to entertain this idea. Let me get it straight though, i can pick any level 12 character and take his bard on? What are the conditions 1. Starting locations 2. Equipment allowed 3. Who will be the judge 4. When 5. Misc. I am willing to allow you to go first. We can assume max hit points. I will take your characters stats and rearrange them for my character so that will be balanced. I will take your character's items and use comparable items. You need to list your character on here in detail, every detail and I will mirror that. Once both characters are listed for all to see and agreed upon you get to make your first move. We can use a neutral party like one of the moderators to assume our dice rolls for us. Or we can work that out separately. I am sure that this is all acceptable to you.
BlaineTog 10-19-04, 01:46 AM	We can assume max hit points.We would assume average, rounded down (max first hit die, though, as normal). Max hit die badly favors meleeists.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 01:53 AM	I'll have Evanius's sheet up by tomorrow night. Heh, the Soulful Bard returns. Just because I'm feeling generous, I won't take Leadership and I'll even run him from the 3.5 SRD. Gallant indeed, Mr. Yade, you've never dealt with a true tactician, apperently. Let the games begin. Edit: Just so everything stays on topic, I've taken the liberty of creating a battlefield (http://www.ledgermaincomics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1001#1001) for us so we don't break anything in the WotC CoC.
Yade 10-19-04, 01:54 AM	Lets see some characters posted here and then we can talk. Put your money where your mouth is. You don't know anything about my tactics. I have made no outrageous claims of fame or skill.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 02:17 AM	Turns out I can't just use the SRD for the accurs'ed edition: it doesn't include wealth at higher levels. Is that table changed from 3e?
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 02:19 AM	Turns out I can't just use the SRD for the accurs'ed edition: it doesn't include wealth at higher levels. Is that table changed from 3e? No. EDIT: If niether of you mind, I could moderate any match, as long as I know where it's being held.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 02:27 AM	Unless Yade objects, I would prefer to use my forum, since this little battle is most certainly off topic and roleplaying on a non-rp forum.
CaoSlayer 10-19-04, 05:38 AM	I am willing to entertain this idea. Let me get it straight though, i can pick any level 12 character and take his bard on? What are the conditions 1. Starting locations 2. Equipment allowed 3. Who will be the judge 4. When 5. Misc. I am willing to allow you to go first. We can assume max hit points. I will take your characters stats and rearrange them for my character so that will be balanced. I will take your character's items and use comparable items. You need to list your character on here in detail, every detail and I will mirror that. Once both characters are listed for all to see and agreed upon you get to make your first move. We can use a neutral party like one of the moderators to assume our dice rolls for us. Or we can work that out separately. I am sure that this is all acceptable to you. Also is recommended to add the books allowed... By example, a wizard of the realms gets a big boost (overpowered spells) while a bard with access to words of creation and arcane strike deals more damage than a raging barbarian.
Cross Hatch 10-19-04, 06:34 AM	I am willing to entertain this idea. Let me get it straight though, i can pick any level 12 character and take his bard on? What are the conditions 1. Starting locations 2. Equipment allowed 3. Who will be the judge 4. When 5. Misc. I am willing to allow you to go first. We can assume max hit points. I will take your characters stats and rearrange them for my character so that will be balanced. I will take your character's items and use comparable items. You need to list your character on here in detail, every detail and I will mirror that. Once both characters are listed for all to see and agreed upon you get to make your first move. We can use a neutral party like one of the moderators to assume our dice rolls for us. Or we can work that out separately. I am sure that this is all acceptable to you. I think starting location should be determined by having a list of six fundamentally different scenarios (eg. tracking an assassin through waterdeep in the dead of night, being on a boat about to be taken over by a pirate ship which has your fair lady imprisoned on board it, having 50% of your spells/gear/etc. randomly removed and randomly, unexpectedly, stumbling onto one another in the middle of a cramped dungeon, an aerial battle high above the ground, etc.). The GM would roll a die to select which scenario will be used after the charactes have been submitted to him, so you don't know which scenario to prepare for. I think only the DMG, MM, and PHB should be used and gold is what is suggested for the level. Also, under absolutely no circumstances would I allow either player to see the other player's character until after the contest is over.
Zelphi 10-19-04, 06:50 AM	Yade, this is completely moronic. How can you not understand the simple ideal that Bards do many things at the same time and benefit parties by using all of those abilities. If you want to talk about other characters beating those abilities, then you miss the obvious fact that it takes around 3 classes to beat this one person at one thing, yet how many could beat the same bard at 3 different things at the same time?
markhaus 10-19-04, 08:17 AM	Rangers rogues and bards are all fine for the role they play. Druids and barbarians are a little overpowered, monks and wizards are arguably okay (some may think one or the other is too powerful or underpowered, most think they are ok), sorcerors, paladins, and fighters need very minor tweaking. I say this from posts on the board, PC experience and DM experience. To see a thread complaining about bards is rather funny since the most powerful character in my game (5th level party, only magic items are rings of prot +1 which everyone has) is a bard.
Loopy 10-19-04, 09:54 AM	Lest we forget the importance of emotional reinforcement in battle... did anyone see the last two Red Sox games? Heh.
Yade 10-19-04, 10:00 AM	The character sheets should be open for all to see, simply because there should be an air of adjustment. He posts a character sheet and lots of people will make suggestions and he will make changes. Even with adjusting things the bard is going to have to get pretty lucky to win this fight. If both parties are able to see the other one coming then they wil be better prepared, this is not a bad thing and will take away the power behind lame excuses like "well my bard only lost because I didnt expect this...." Also, I do not want to get to the day of the duel and have to call it off becuse of some ludicrous character stat, feature or item. We will have to meet in a chat room that has a dice rolling function, I think Yahoo allows that function.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 12:08 PM	I don't particularly need to see your character, I was going to rebuild Evanius as I originally had him (with new stat rolls to be fair to you, unless you'd prefer standard array) I suggest we allow the other members of the thread dictate the ground rules to us so neither of us can sneak in any unfair advantage. The guidelines we most need: - Style of contest (vs, competing in an adventure, etc) - Books allowed (So far, I've only been using the 3.5 srd, not even the errata) - Stat rolling preference - 'Win' condition (part of style) - prep time for the characters.
HuskarlOdinson 10-19-04, 12:16 PM	I have a 1st level commoner with a club that would kill everyone's characters and take over the world in a week. How so? I'm the dm. bwahaha
Yade 10-19-04, 12:20 PM	Post your character as we originally discussed and I will do the same tonight. Lets assume that the 3.5 PHB and 3.5 DMG are the only books used. Knowing each others stats should not give either of us an advantage. There is no need to roll stats, you give me your stats and I will use the same stats for my character with the provision that I can rearrange them for the class that I choose. As fr as I am concerned with this stat agreement you can assign them as high as you want.
meabolex 10-19-04, 12:52 PM	A small commentary on the overall effectiveness of a level 12 bard: The class feature gained at 12th level (song of freedom) is a team feature and thus won't be useful in a 1 vs. 1 scenario. 4th level spells are very strong for the bard. . .the avoidance altogether of the 5th level spells is an advantage. With a base 15 ranks in UMD, the bard will most likely be able to activate any wand and any staff. Those should be selected carefully. Since combat is most likely an important element in this contest, we must be aware that the challenger automatically knows the bard's magical strength: enchantment and mind-influencing effects. The bard must be willing to only make a relatively small investment in mind-influencing effects. . . perhaps 1 for 3rd and 4th level. Against melee opponents, the bard will have such a high advantage that I doubt that will be selected by the challenger. Thus, the most likely candidate will be a cleric, druid, or wizard. These all have good will saves and high relatively level spells. With each getting 6th level spells, it becomes important to focus on which 5th-6th level spells will be most dangerous to the bard. For the cleric, harm is certainly a dangerous prospect. I'd recommend the bard staying as far away from the opponent as possible. Due to the limited mobility of the cleric, I'd say this is an easier (though not easy) fight than the other two. Heal may prolong things, but limited mobility is a big problem in this fight. For the druid, baleful polymorph is a dangerous spell for the bard. . . fortitude saves will have to be high. Avoiding wildshaping and animal companion problems is fairly easy, so they won't be that big of a challenge. The druid's greater dispel magic, however, might make avoiding melee combat more difficult. For the wizard, flesh to stone, disintegrate, mislead, true seeing, and greater dispel magic should all be troubling. . . also baleful polymorph, feeblemind, and teleport might be effective. Since we're dealing with spellcasters, anything that can disrupt or counter these casters is a good idea. Reflex-save spells are all good here (via UMD). Also, anything that can boost fortitude saves or allow rerolls is a good idea. The ring of evasion, while expensive for this level, might be a good idea.
Yade 10-19-04, 12:58 PM	What makes you think that a melee character is an easy conquer for the bard? I might easily choose a level 12 monk. In the end, and through this thread, very experienced players have agreed that a bard is not a powerhouse. They agree that he is the best all around support guy. Which is why it is ludicrous to try and duel me with his bard, it goes against everything that they have said before.
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 01:00 PM	It's hard to believe that an intelligent conversation in which Yade was admitting the extremity of his original position and progress was being made has descended to this. Yade, take a sorcerer and cast empowered enervation till this challenge truly means nothing. We will have proved nothing. *gets out bag of popcorn. Casts wind wall to stop stray projectiles*
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 01:22 PM	What makes you think that a melee character is an easy conquer for the bard? I might easily choose a level 12 monk. In the end, and through this thread, very experienced players have agreed that a bard is not a powerhouse. They agree that he is the best all around support guy. Which is why it is ludicrous to try and duel me with his bard, it goes against everything that they have said before. But... wait! That would make the original (an trollish) assertion of this thread's title false! No matter, a skilled and creative player can succeed with any character class against any other character class. That said, I think we should submit our sheets simultaniously. I will use the following array: 9, 11, 11, 13, 15 & 17 Satisfactory? What is ludicrus is you not understanding that all classes are useful and that it depends on the player, not the mechanics to make them what they should be.
Yade 10-19-04, 01:31 PM	I have already said that maybe I was a bit harsh on the bard, but that does not give you the right to start tossing insults at me. My assertion is far less outrageous than yours is because you apparently play a bard and are going to be in over your head. Those stats are fine. Lets go with no magical items to prevent "equipment" from being the deciding factor. A quickedned and empowered shocking grasp followed by a maximized lightning bolt. An empowerd ennervate is a good idea. Maybe a flurry of blows giving me 4 attacks per round. Are you sure you are up to this?
meabolex 10-19-04, 01:38 PM	What makes you think that a melee character is an easy conquer for the bard? I might easily choose a level 12 monk. No SR, no easy way to get around greater invisibility + zone of silence, no access to long-distance weapons. Next? In the end, and through this thread, very experienced players have agreed that a bard is not a powerhouse. That's quite a departure from 'useless.'
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 01:43 PM	Those stats are fine. Lets go with no magical items to prevent "equipment" from being the deciding factor. That's just illogical. The system is designed to incorporate magic items as part of the characters. You might as well say we can't use skills or spells.
meabolex 10-19-04, 01:45 PM	A quickedned and empowered shocking grasp followed by a maximized lightning bolt. A Quickened, Empowered shocking grasp is impossible for a 12th level character unless you're using the miniature's handbook. A Maximized lightning bolt is a joke to a bard with high Dex and a ring of evasion. An empowerd ennervate is a good idea. Displacement + mirror image. Or just standard improved invisibility coupled with some dispel magic. Maybe a flurry of blows giving me 4 attacks per round. Are you sure you are up to this? Hohoho, if you can find the target (:
meabolex 10-19-04, 01:46 PM	Lets go with no magical items to prevent "equipment" from being the deciding factor. Cop-out city! :rofl:
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 02:01 PM	Displacement + mirror image. Or just standard improved invisibility coupled with some dispel magic. Sorcerer can play that same game. Magic missile to each image. See invisibility. Couple of low level spells, then empowered enervation time. 1 hit has the chance to decrease the opposition power level by 1/2. Or Twin spell magic missile or scorching ray. Dispel magic to counterspell vs equal level caster just sucks.
Yade 10-19-04, 02:06 PM	No SR, no easy way to get around greater invisibility + zone of silence, no access to long-distance weapons. Next? Tell me where these are listed as class skills of the bard. If you insist on introducing magic items then the fight becomes a totally different one.
meabolex 10-19-04, 02:16 PM	Sorcerer can play that same game. Magic missile to each image. See invisibility. Couple of low level spells, then empowered enervation time. 1 hit has the chance to decrease the opposition power level by 1/2. Or Twin spell magic missile or scorching ray. Dispel magic to counterspell vs equal level caster just sucks. You'd have to cast see invisibility first to see the images (: And as soon as you'd do that, I'd cast silence on myself and walk right up to you. If you take a 5 ft step, no spell. If you run away, I take my AoO and grapple you. If you have the Silent Spell feat with dimenson door or gaseous form . . . then you deserve to outdo this strategy because no sorcerer I've ever played with has taken them (plenty have taken dimension door, just not Silent Spell) (:
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 02:31 PM	then you deserve to outdo this strategy because no sorcerer I've ever played with has taken them (plenty have taken dimension door, just not Silent Spell) (: Really? That tactic is key to my shinobi sorcerer build.
meabolex 10-19-04, 02:47 PM	lets do the duesl on our characters merits, not on a convolted collection of magic items. Sound good? Heh. Each level 12 character, according to the DMG guidelines for wealth, should have 88k gp worth of gear. If you don't have that gear, you're not dualing on 'character merit' but 'which character needs magic items the least.' And I wonder which character presented by Yade *cough* monk *cough* needs magic items the least? (: The "convolted [sic] collection of magic items" is essential to compare the characters.
meabolex 10-19-04, 02:49 PM	Really? That tactic is key to my shinobi sorcerer build. I personally haven't seen it. I'm sure you could use it effectively. . . but in 90% of situations, I'd rather have another feat. YMMV :cool:
meabolex 10-19-04, 03:16 PM	This whole argument simply verifies that a monk is more powerful than a bard. And a fighter, and a ranger, and a rogue, and a barbarian, and a paladin. If you don't use the magic items, you cannot make a fair comparison between classes. The monk obviously benefits less from magical items than the above classes do. No need for magical armor? No need for magical weapons? No need for. . . This is just pure trolling. I won't bite anymore (:
Nithendil 10-19-04, 03:21 PM	Next he's going to insist that he should have vow of poverty.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 03:29 PM	Then I simply demand the Master of the Secret Sound PrC :D
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 04:31 PM	For the record, I think the Bard is just fine. But to pit a support character against a pure combatant is foolishness. I would take the "no magic items" stipulation and do exactly what meabolex suggested. The only way to fight magic is with magic. Period. Unless it becomes a caster duel, which disadvantages the Bard, clever use of spells will guarantee victory. At a minimum just cast greater invisibility, use the facinate bard ability, and suggestion him into letting you tie him up. Then slit his throat. This whole fight is just so udderly pointless!!! Moo-ve on!!!
Yade 10-19-04, 04:35 PM	You cannot fascinate someone if they cannot see you. And as soon as you make a move towards them it breaks.
meabolex 10-19-04, 04:56 PM	Speaking of that, you'll have to have immunity to mind influencing effects or at least a MASSIVE will save. . . or you'll have no chance. A simple fascination is a DC 30ish Will save. . . almost impossible at level 12. Ability focus (Fascinate) or my favorite, the circlet of persuasion can boost it farther up. Skill Focus Perform, etc. etc. So with each fascinate (12 per day), there is an additional free suggestion with that fascinate. The DC is 20+. If you don't have a +20 Will save, the bard gets 12 chances to try it (or at least get you to roll a 1). With a successful suggestion, the bard can cripple any character you choose: You don't need to cast spells -- they're bad for your health! Weapons are for sissies. . . you don't need to use a weapon against me! You should never attack me if you value your life. Try playing a wizard that can't cast spells. . . or a monk that can't damage the bard. Edit: yes, if a creature passes the will save versus the suggestion (highly unlikely), then you can't fascinate for 24 hours. But the chance of passing is remote.
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 04:56 PM	You cannot fascinate someone if they cannot see you. And as soon as you make a move towards them it breaks. The Bardic suggestion ability does not break the facinate.
Thermanshs 10-19-04, 04:56 PM	- Style of contest (vs, competing in an adventure, etc) - Books allowed (So far, I've only been using the 3.5 srd, not even the errata) - Stat rolling preference - 'Win' condition (part of style) - prep time for the characters. -Style of contest=the middle of an adventure (hey! this is a test that should be taken in-game-wise) -Books allowed=core only (errata included) -Stats=standard 25 point buy -Win condition=eliminate the danger of your foe whatever this way could be (killing,imprisoning,sending to another plane...even converting to one's side!) -preperation time=adventure dependant
Loopy 10-19-04, 05:03 PM	Equipment is a BIG factor when you have Use Magic Device. One of the best things about Bards is the fact that they have UMD as a class skill and they can rock up any spell or psionic power at all thanks to scrolls and power stones... not to mention dorjes and wands.
Yade 10-19-04, 05:04 PM	A simple fascination is a DC 30ish Will save. . . almost impossible at level 12. Ability focus (Fascinate) or my favorite, the circlet of persuasion can boost it farther up. Skill Focus Perform, etc. etc. Are you using the PHB 3.5? The will save VS the Bards perfom check. Using the stats he showed me his perform skill could be a max of 15. Would you care to explain how that became a 30 in your calculations? The Bardic suggestion ability does not break the facinate. Mirror you are right, BUT it very clearly states that the person must be able to see the bard. 3.5 PHB page 29, left column towards the bottom. If he chooses to go invisible as you indicated the fascinate is broken, whether or not he chooses to use suggestion.
Thermanshs 10-19-04, 05:08 PM	Next he's going to insist that he should have vow of poverty. :heehee Be serious Yade...as Meabolex said magic item values vary from class to class so it is ESSENTIAL to include them here. But if you're so much afraid of this duel being too complex or unpredictable then why not use standard gear as the DMG shows for average NPC elites? (pg. 110-126)
Yade 10-19-04, 05:10 PM	LOL, I am not afraid of the duel. I simply think he is relying on the magic items as a crutch. I have agreed that he will be able to use magic items, basic ones, and that the max value of equipment be 88k. I looked up those characters and they would be fine.
meabolex 10-19-04, 05:10 PM	15 ranks + 5 Charisma + 10 (average roll) = 30 (max 40, min 21) or, slightly optimized: 15 ranks + 3 circlet of persuasion + 3 Skill Focus: Perform + 6 Charisma + 2 Ability Focus (Fascinate) + 2 masterwork musical instrument + 10 (average roll) = 41 (max 51, min 32)
Thermanshs 10-19-04, 05:17 PM	LOL, I am not afraid of the duel. I simply think he is relying on the magic items as a crutch. I have agreed that he will be able to use magic items, basic ones, and that the max value of equipment be 88k. I didn't say afraid of this duel,I DID say afraid of complexity Magic items only complicate the matter, you contend that the bard can do it on his skills...bla...bla...
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 05:24 PM	or, slightly optimized: 15 ranks + 3 circlet of persuasion + 3 Skill Focus: Perform + 6 Charisma + 2 Ability Focus (Fascinate) + 2 masterwork musical instrument + 10 (average roll) = 41 (max 51, min 32) Oh, the cheese! *opens a bottle of whine* BTW, he needs only an average of +20 to his will save for the less than optimized fascinate (which, at 12th level with no magic items, is pretty hard even for a caster or a paladin!) And, yes, fascinate cannot be done while invisible. I know.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 05:26 PM	Are you using the PHB 3.5? The will save VS the Brds perfom check. Using the stats he showed me that could be a max of 15. Would you care to explain how that became a 30 in your calculations? Perform check = Will save DC 15 ranks + 7 Chr mod (Chr24 = 17 +3(level) +4(magic)) + 3 Skill focus = 25. With +5 skill mod, that'd be 30. Save vs DC 30, or be fascinated. Now save vs my suggestion DC 23 or take my suggestion that it might be fun to tango with me (of course, you must drop your weapon to tango, my dear ;) ) When you close for the dance, I tell suggest you let me cat's grace you so you're a better dancer, so waive you save -- HOLD PERSON. coup de grace. I'm sure I told this story on the Players Boards before. Edit1: Oops, save vs suggestion is 23 (10 = 1/2 level (12) + Chr mode (7)) Edit2: If there was no equipment, how the blue blazes would I play my lute, not to mention the moarle penalty for being naked and cold. Also saves would outstrip save DCs and you'de be worse off because the DCs for my music is based on skill, not ability mode/level.
meabolex 10-19-04, 05:31 PM	Unfortunately, there's a very simple counter to fascinate. . . simply make yourself deaf somehow (; Of course, 20% of your spells will fail -- but it's better than major crippling or, as Vaal suggested, auto-death. You can use Silent Spell to overcome this negative.
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 05:32 PM	Perform check = Will save DC 15 ranks + 7 Chr mod (Chr24 = 17 +3(level) +4(magic)) + 3 Skill focus = 25. With +5 skill mod, that'd be 30. Save vs DC 30, or be fascinated. Now save vs my suggestion DC 20 or take my suggestion that it might be fun to tango with me (of course, you must drop your weapon to tango, my dear ;) ) When you close for the dance, I tell suggest you let me cat's grace you so you're a better dancer, so waive you save -- HOLD PERSON. coup de grace. I'm sure I told this story on the Players Boards before. No, no, do it WITHOUT magic. 15+5(20chr)+3(skill focus)=23. Rolling a 1, this is a will save DC 24. Cleric with 20 wis gets 8+5+10(avg roll) and STILL FAILS!!!! (23 vs DC24 will save) Even with Iron Will, the bard DC is still too high on a roll of a 3!!!
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 05:37 PM	Hence, my assertion that using magic items is for his own good, because he already said I would go first. Of course, he wants both character to be naked, so I'd have to be orating, so not even a masterwork item to my name.
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 05:44 PM	Hence, my assertion that using magic items is for his own good, because he already said I would go first. Of course, he wants both character to be naked, so I'd have to be orating, so not even a masterwork item to my name. I'm not sure he ACTUALLY said that, but perhaps it's better you orate. Otherwise, you would be a "singing, prancing fool" :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 05:52 PM	He did say no equipment and clothes are listed as equipment. Plus, since we can;t have weapons, he'd be pretty upset when I garrote him with my belt :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 06:00 PM	I do believe I said 'tonight' does it look like night now to you?
Ranthanas 10-19-04, 06:19 PM	Tactics the bard has the monk has no answer to: 1: Diplomacy. Need only +30 to convert someone to unfriendly in one round and +35 to convert them to indifferent (unfriendly being enough to stop them attacking you). Those are check values... Level 12 Bard Diplomacy: 15 (ranks) + 5 (Cha 20 (including items- I'm being generous)) + 6 (3 skill synergies) + 3 (Circlet of Persuasion) = +29. Needs a 1 to convert someone to unfriendly and 6 (75% chance) to convert someone to neutral. In one round. (and yes, my bards often dump 5 skill points for that third synergy) No, that wasn't even particularly cheesy. Sleight of Hand DC 20 to lift a small item off a character, DC 40 to lift it as a free action. There go your magic items while you're making single attacks... Works particularly well if I go invis first (stealing items isn't attacking). Also works well for stealing enemy spellcaster's spell components and holy symbols. (Note: the opposed spot check is just to spot the item being lifted) HTH (and I'm going to stop feeding the big green regenerating monster that turns to stone in sunlight now)
Ranthanas 10-19-04, 06:23 PM	I do believe I said 'tonight' does it look like night now to you? Yes. It's 23:30 by my watch. *ducks*
BlaineTog 10-19-04, 07:21 PM	I might easily choose a level 12 monk.:D Once last year, my DM lost all his campaign material and we did a series of Player-vs-Player fights. We were level 12. I was playing a bard. One of the other players was playing a Vow of Poverty Monk (the twinkery could be smelt for miles around). We didn't fight officially, but we were pretty sure at the beginning that we would have to, so we ran a couple of practise runs. He was so hopelessly screwed. I had a couple of simple tactics that he just couldn't counter *at all.* I wasn't even twinked out. It only gets worse (yes, worse) for the monk if he doesn't have magic items. I know that the Monk is supposed to be the best off, but he's only the best off of the meleeists. Magic Items are in the game to the extent that they are to help counterbalance magic. Bards have magic. So bards arn't as screwed as even the Monk when depribed of magic items. Especially if they win initiative. Which is why it is ludicrous to try and duel me with his bard, it goes against everything that they have said before.Using a duel to determine the balance of two classes *at all* is almost always pointless, useful for very very little.
Cross Hatch 10-19-04, 07:28 PM	Lets go with no magical items to prevent "equipment" from being the deciding factor. So that the Bard can't use UMD? Yade, are you trying to stack the deck in your favor? Its almost like you feel unsure of yourself about being able to take out the Bard.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 07:29 PM	Yade, this is completely moronic. How can you not understand the simple ideal that Bards do many things at the same time and benefit parties by using all of those abilities. Of course it's moronic. Apparently, since the bard isn't doing 733+ damage in battle, the bard therefore isn't uber enough to compete with the "big boys." Therefore, this obviously has to come down to a fight, because apparently, skills, spellcasting, decent melee ability, the best skill list in the game, a good will & reflex save, bardic music, the second best (after the rogue) # of skills in the game, and bardic knowledge all mean crap, as does any play value beyond combat. That's all sarcasm, of course, but that is what this whole "discussion" as it were, has come down to. If you want to talk about other characters beating those abilities, then you miss the obvious fact that it takes around 3 classes to beat this one person at one thing, yet how many could beat the same bard at 3 different things at the same time? see above. Even with adjusting things the bard is going to have to get pretty lucky to win this fight. :rollseyes: you keep thinking that. If both parties are able to see the other one coming then they wil be better prepared, this is not a bad thing and will take away the power behind lame excuses like "well my bard only lost because I didnt expect this...." Also, I do not want to get to the day of the duel and have to call it off becuse of some ludicrous character stat, feature or item. I doubt that this would be a problem for the bard character, short of extenuating circumstances. What makes you think that a melee character is an easy conquer for the bard? Their less-than-optimal will saving throw, their inability to counter most forms of magic (except through items of course -- but all the nonspellcasting classes depend on their gear to one degree or another to counter magic.) I might easily choose a level 12 monk. In the end, and through this thread, very experienced players have agreed that a bard is not a powerhouse. They agree that he is the best all around support guy. Which is why it is ludicrous to try and duel me with his bard, it goes against everything that they have said before. Then they're wrong and likely not as "experienced" as you've stated. I have already said that maybe I was a bit harsh on the bard, but that does not give you the right to start tossing insults at me. Perhaps, but your position regarding the bard as a "prancing fool" and "some idiot" hasn't changed. My assertion is far less outrageous than yours is because you apparently play a bard and are going to be in over your head. In your opinion, sure. But then again, people believe in things they can't often back up. Those stats are fine. Lets go with no magical items to prevent "equipment" from being the deciding factor. For someone going with a "might go with a monk," you're sure giving yourself a pretty good advantage, since monks can go virtually without any equipment, whereas most other classes are more dependant on them for certain things. A quickedned and empowered shocking grasp followed by a maximized lightning bolt. Versus a bard's reflex save? ring of evasion? Nope. They would actually have to get close enough to MAKE a touch attack to assume that they would succeed it and therefore do damage. An empowerd ennervate is a good idea. Maybe a flurry of blows giving me 4 attacks per round. Are you sure you are up to this? empowered enervate? You'd have to see your opponent first. Not only can they hide & move silently, but can go invisible in a zone of silence as well. Sorcerer can play that same game. Magic missile to each image. See invisibility. Couple of low level spells, then empowered enervation time. 1 hit has the chance to decrease the opposition power level by 1/2. Or Twin spell magic missile or scorching ray. Dispel magic to counterspell vs equal level caster just sucks. Magic missile -- one standard action See Invisibility -- one standard action empowered enervation -- full round action Three rounds. Two of which just "Debuffing" the bard. During which time the bard can counter with an excellent chance of success -- even before the enervation spell goes off -- time the bard can use also be casting spells or closing in to attack or opening with a volly of arrows. Tell me where these are listed as class skills of the bard. If you insist on introducing magic items then the fight becomes a totally different one. removing magic items throws the balance between the classes out of whack. Some classes depend on items more than others. I am directly referring to those posters who seem to feel as though magic items should be permitted. lets do the duesl on our characters merits, not on a convolted collection of magic items. "character merits" vary with each class in such a way that, again, some classes rely on magic items more than others. Monks rely on items least of all the classes, followed shortly by the sorcerer or equalled by the sorcerer with the eschew components feat. All of the other classes, including the bard, require equipment more than those two classes do to varying degrees. Removing items throws the balance of the classes out of whack and you're giving yourself a built-in advantage. Like pitting a Vow of Poverty monk against a naked fighter. This whole argument simply verifies that a monk is more powerful than a bard. No, it just confirms that the monk is less dependant upon magic items. THeir hands strike as magic items and they not only can't wear armor, but get bonuses just for being a monk and from wisdom bonuses, among other goodies. With the exception of the sorcerer -- particularly the sorcerer with the eschew components feat (and the druid, if I'm not mistaken) all do not have the said independance. You are only "prooving" this by giving yourself a built-in advantage. Most of us consider that obvious, however, a challenge was made that indicated that a monk was not more powerful than a bard. It is time to put that to a test. I might choose a wizard, another class obviously more powerful than a bard, and a wizard would benefit even more from magic items. Regardless the wizard would win even without them. Oh? The wizard depends on this spellbook to reprepare spells. Without it, the wizard cannot prepare new spells. Without material components, there's a whole slew of spells he cannot cast. The only way the wizard could be more than a commoner in the instance of "no items" is if he were able to prepare his or her spells before the battle with a spellbook. Otherwise, the bard would uncontestedly end. As would a 6-year-old child with a strait-razor. With mundane items, the odds of who wins is much less certain. (as you would still need to buy scrolls in order to scribe them.) Therefore, a wizard's capabilities would be extremely limited. Though it is really lame for you to require magic items. I'll call BS on this. It's really lame to say "no magic items" and then play a class with minimal reliance on magic items. It's like pitting a sorcerer with eschew components against a fighter, who's specialized with a bastard sword and is a S&B fighter with no equipment. Big surprise -- sorcerer wins. Hardly "proof" that the sorcerer is better. The same is true in this instance. It's lame to give yourself such an advantage. Even without items, if the monk wins w/o equipment it can be chalked up to the fact that the monk has that independance from needing those items as much as saying that the bard wins because of items they have. Furthermore, all 12th level characters, assuming a standard DMG character, has 88,000 gp worth of magical items. It's as much a part of that character as their special abilities granted from their class. Like Vaalingrade Ashland said, "That's just illogical. The system is designed to incorporate magic items as part of the characters. You might as well say we can't use skills or spells." I said bards are useless, then I agreed that maybe they werent useless but weak. so you went from saying it is completely useless to it's almost completely useless. :rolleyes: And here you sit confirming that by not being willing to compete with me without magic items, you are agreeing that their skills alone are not enough to win this combat. By winning, all you'd be prooving is that monks can do better without items than bards can. Otherwise, the 88k magic items eliminates this by eliminating each class's dependance on gear as a changable value in the outcome of the battle. I simply think he is relying on the magic items as a crutch. That's just a lie. I looked up those characters and they would be fine. Okay. Then play a fighter, barbarian, paladin, rogue, ranger, or wizard rather than a monk, sorcerer, cleric, or druid. Then come back and tell me that items are unnecessary. Like I said. 12th level characters have a minimum of magical gear. It's a part of their character's merits. Removing items and playing a character class with minimal dependance on magical gear is lame.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 07:36 PM	*evil grin* Evanius is ready. Is your character done, Yade? I'm not going to reveal so you can build a counter card to him. I think we should PM them both to someone and they will post it.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 07:43 PM	*evil grin* Evanius is ready. Is your character done, Yade? I'm not going to reveal so you can build a counter card to him. I think we should PM them both to someone and they will post it. I'll do that, if you wish.
Mirror, Mirror 10-19-04, 07:56 PM	*gets new bag of popcorn* BTW, the sorcerer example was against a bard with mirror image and see invisibility already on. As with most magical fights, the winner would most likely be the one who got the first shot off.
Yade 10-19-04, 09:27 PM	As I said before I was waiting for the stupid excuse and there it is. Nice try. Post your character.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 09:29 PM	DoA has it, hotshot, now send him/her yours and we'll get this show on the road.
Yade 10-19-04, 09:32 PM	We agreed that it would be posted here, I obviously cannot trust him. I can' believe you would use such shallow tactics to back down from your words. I'm out for the night, I hope to see your character in the morning. Keep in mind that anything you post you can adjust after I post mine. Although you said anything so whatever I decide to post should not matter.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 09:36 PM	We agreed that it would be posted here, I obviously cannot trust him. I can' believe you would use such shallow tactics to back down from your words. I'm out for the night, I hope to see your character in the morning. Keep in mind that anything you post you can adjust after I post mine. Although you said anything so whatever I decide to post should not matter. The agreement was to post them both at the same time. The two of you give me your characters and I post them both in one post. This way, they are presesnted at the same time with no distinctive time lapse (and therefore no time to make any last-minute changes.) You're the only one slowing things down by griping and complaining every inch of the way due to your being hung over how weak you consider the bard to be, despite vast amounts of proof otherwise. That is to say, Vaal is not backing down from anything. You, on the other hand...
BlaineTog 10-19-04, 09:41 PM	We agreed that it would be posted here, I obviously cannot trust him.What, in the time you've known Vaal, has made you think you can't trust him, especially since he's already finished his character and isn't going to change it? Are you afraid he'll tweak it to better take you out? You do realize that you already have an unfair advantage over him, don't you (you know his Class)? I can' believe you would use such shallow tactics to back down from your words.0_o Keep in mind that anything you post you can adjust after I post mine.Then what the heck is the problem!? Although you said anything so whatever I decide to post should not matter.A) Anything core. Obviously. B) Then what the heck is the problem!? Edit: I also suggest using average rolls for everything, so no one can call it a fluke. But whatever.
Cross Hatch 10-19-04, 09:58 PM	What, in the time you've known Vaal, has made you think you can't trust him, especially since he's already finished his character and isn't going to change it? Are you afraid he'll tweak it to better take you out? You do realize that you already have an unfair advantage over him, don't you (you know his Class)? 0_o Then what the heck is the problem!? A) Anything core. Obviously. B) Then what the heck is the problem!? Edit: I also suggest using average rolls for everything, so no one can call it a fluke. But whatever. Come on guys, Yade is having some performance anxiety. Cut him a break. You can do it Yade. Just pass the sheet to DoA. Just let go. Your waffling is making it look like you don't believe your own words about the Bard being weak.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 10:25 PM	*sigh* I wanted to have my fun tonight. I really wanted to test my ability in a fair contest, but this and the item thing makes me wonder.... Anyone else want to do this thing? I'm a litte iffy on allowing that sort of behavior at my place....
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-19-04, 10:40 PM	*sigh* I wanted to have my fun tonight. I really wanted to test my ability in a fair contest, but this and the item thing makes me wonder.... Anyone else want to do this thing? I'm a litte iffy on allowing that sort of behavior at my place.... Well... Yade was here before, but he/she seems to have either backed out or is reassessing the situation... or... something. In either case, since it is "tonight" and therefore the specified time and all of the other terms have been met (those that weren't worked out don't seem to have reached a conclusion of any sort -- thanks to Yade bailing out when all the fine details could have been worked out or even had been worked out) then I suppose we could say that Yade therefore forfiet the deal by not showing up on time with his or her character build. Though if Yade does eventually want to show up and actually do what Yade set out to do, then I'll be here as long as necessary. Though since Yade isn't even here, it looks like he/she chickened out. EDIT: It looks like I misread his/her last post. Back in the morning eh? That wasn't the agreed upon time. So instead of discussing this like a gentle-person, you just hi-tailed it. *Shrugs* whatever...
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-19-04, 10:55 PM	This sounded like so much fun too :( I'm not going to call him out or anything. I just was really looking forward to playing Evanius again (abiet without his sidekick sorceress), so I'm a bit diappointed. My point however stands, a good character isn't just measure of how many class abilities they have. Yes, they should be balanced by thier class abilities and in some cases, are not, but they can still be both enjoyable and effective. I wanted to demonstrate the tactical prowess inherent in the bard class. In the high Charisma Bard, we see the potency of finesse over brute force. The bard makes up for not being best at one thing by being good at everything and blending them together into a harmonic whole that no other class can duplicate. That is the power of the bard, not the pieces, but the whole. I'm Vaalingrade Ashland and I apporved this message. *flag*
baerdith 10-19-04, 11:08 PM	This whole argument simply verifies that a monk is more powerful than a bard. Most of us consider that obvious, however, a challenge was made that indicated that a monk was not more powerful than a bard. It is time to put that to a test. I might choose a wizard, another class obviously more powerful than a bard, and a wizard would benefit even more from magic items. Regardless the wizard would win even without them. Of course a Spell book would be considered a 'Magic Item'. Let's see your wizard play THAT game. :)
WizO_Catoblepas 10-19-04, 11:36 PM	Ok, in order to redue the anount of baiting that I've seen in this board, I don't mind acting as the mediator for this "duel" of sorts. Send your character to me via e-mail (catoblepas@wizo.wizards.com) and I'll post them on the board at the same time tomorrow night. Is that agreeable to both sides? And as as reminder, baiting is against theCode of Conduct. Thus, let's refrain from it. This includes (a) saying people who believe in a certain viewpoint are idiotic and (b) telling other that they're violating the Code of Conduct (just report the thread and leave it at that). Thanks.
Yade 10-20-04, 03:01 AM	I will choose my Character from the 3.5 PHB and 3.5 DMG. and send it to you tomorrow night. The starting stats have already been agreed upon and we will have no more than 88k in gear. There have been no restrictions placed on my choice of class, or race or equipment, other than cost. Will there be any precast spells? PS: I will be posting it late due to the fact that I have a concert tomorrow night
Zelphi 10-20-04, 04:58 AM	Wow, even the mods are into this... Can I have a go with a Fighter after this? I'll tear his bard and whatever the hell you come out with apart!
baerdith 10-20-04, 05:07 AM	Wow, even the mods are into this... Can I have a go with a Fighter after this? I'll tear his bard and whatever the hell you come out with apart! Not that I have anything against Bards, especially since the only version 3 characters I've played have been bards, but I think if we are seeing just what can take out VA's Bard, my money would go on a properly built Sorceror. If this is still on going I'll put something together and have a go after Zelphi! B
tiluvias99 10-20-04, 06:14 AM	Been reading this thread for awhile... As previously said by other people, IMO the bard is either a generalist or a supporter. I do not think he is suited to 1 on 1, however. depending on what class Yade chooses, I think that Yade could win. If Yade goes Barb, he'll get his ass handed to him. If yade goes bard... lets not go there. If Yade goes cleric, I think that in this case Yade would win. Same with druid, But Yade would probably completely slaughter the Bard If yade goes fighter, I think he'll lose, put that depends on how it is played. If yade goes monk, then bard will win. If yade goes paladin, all he can hope for if to win initiative and do a mounted charge, or he'll lose very quickly. If Yade goes Ranger, I think eventually the Bard would win, but I don't know. If Yade goes rogue, he'll pick up a ring of blinking and will probably slaughter the Bard, cause he'll get many MANY attacks/round and deal +6d6 sneak attack with each, plus UMD. But if bard goes invis then he's ok. If Yade goes sorc/wiz, I think he'll win. Basically I think this is going to be a spell battle. and Sucks to be those who can't cast spells. now, there's something you all forgot to mention. will multi-class characters be available? what about PrCs? He did say he would make his character from the PHB and the DMG. IMO, I don't think there should be. In any case, go Vaalingrade Ashland! :bow:
Zelphi 10-20-04, 06:19 AM	Yade as a Bard, now that'd be interesting... On a side note, I was mostly joking about joining in afterwards, but I could give it a go.
CaoSlayer 10-20-04, 06:47 AM	I have little time... so I will make a recomended spell list level 1: -Grease (use in heavy armored clerics or fighters or ever wizards, they will be unable to reach you, use in yourself against a grapping creature) -Expeditious retreat (you can move the same that a fighter can charge) -Hideus laughter (warrior-killer) -Silent imagen or ventr... (if you use ventr. while invisible, you can then start using your bardic music seeming to be in another place) level 2: -Glitterdust (priceless spell) -Alter self -Silence (one of the best stuff out here if fighting against wizard, cleric or sorceror) -invisility or mirror imagen: The first is better against casters (they cant target you with magic missiles if they cant see you), the second is better against melee guys, specially combined with blink level 3: -BLINK!!! (you must get this spell, it is almost like improved evasion, if you fails the save, you will get half damage; also almost every targered spell will miss half the time, needs two spells to be counted and you will attack as an invisible guy (no enemy dex-+2 to attack) -Mayor Imagen (cast invisility and then throw an illusion of yourself far of you, by example) -Haste or phantom steed(the first if you are meleeing the second will keep you very far away for melee). -Dispell magic!! level 4: -Shout (Can tear apart scrolls and potions, a good starter spell) Or Shadow conjuration (pleny of uses, melf´s arrow it is pretty good, same with scorching ray). -zone of silence -Cure Critical wonds (the best one) Improved invisibility it is a nice spell, but blink it is superior, specially fighting against wizards or if you arent to melee (displacement will give you the same bonuses). note: long duration buffers since alterself lasts 2 hours, the fight can start with the bard altered? and same with phantom steed. And some tactics of mine, worked well in a tournament that I had time ago. Way to fight: -Be annoying Always try to prepare actions, there is not worse thing for a wizard to be silenced just when casting this better spell, or when a fighter get disarmed by a whip. -Be fast With a phantom steed, a bow a some few feats, no melee guy will be able to touch you. -Be slippy dont play the other guy game, if he tries to fight, then cast, if he tries to cast, then fight, if tries to gapple then grease yourself. first round: fascinate, then before using suggestion, change to inspire courage and greatness then attack.
Mirror, Mirror 10-20-04, 11:06 AM	But don't forget your OWN chances to miss with Blink... And silence is probably not the best choice. Either the sorcerer will have the silent spell metamagic, or the cleric or wizard will have it and prepare at least 2-3 spells for that contingency. IF there was a question about who will go first, then Yade would have an even chance. Since he has declared the Bard will have the first shot, he better choose someone who won't be taken out by the Bard's first ability. Now, to keep things fair, I would say that there should be no spells in play except through items at the start. That way a meele combatant would not be disadvantaged. Also, the spell contest won't just come down to who prepared for the best spell combinations. This ain't no wizards duel!
malisteen 10-20-04, 11:19 AM	At first I found this whole line of discussion moronic, but it's starting to grow on me. I'm actually on pins and needles to see what happens. Maybe we should have more of these. Sorcerer vs. Wizard? Fighter vs. Cleric? Anyone taking bets?
Mirror, Mirror 10-20-04, 11:25 AM	At first I found this whole line of discussion moronic, but it's starting to grow on me. I'm actually on pins and needles to see what happens. Maybe we should have more of these. Sorcerer vs. Wizard? Fighter vs. Cleric? Anyone taking bets? I give Yade 3-1 odds. Voluntairly loosing Init? If he wins, it'll be a miricle.
meabolex 10-20-04, 11:53 AM	level 1: -Grease (use in heavy armored clerics or fighters or ever wizards, they will be unable to reach you, use in yourself against a grapping creature) -Expeditious retreat (you can move the same that a fighter can charge) -Hideus laughter (warrior-killer) -Silent imagen or ventr... (if you use ventr. while invisible, you can then start using your bardic music seeming to be in another place) Ditch the hideous laughter entirely. No point having it at such a high level with much better spells available. It should have been switched out a LONG time ago. I'd prefer feather fall in this slot instead. MAYBE animate rope (a spell I like), but kinda redundant with grease. While I like ventriloquism, I'd say at this level (with zone of silence) that silent image would be a better choice. Silent image is so handy that even at this level it can be powerful. Keep the rest -- retreat is handy, as is grease. level 2: -Glitterdust (priceless spell) -Alter self -Silence (one of the best stuff out here if fighting against wizard, cleric or sorceror) -invisility or mirror imagen: The first is better against casters (they cant target you with magic missiles if they cant see you), the second is better against melee guys, specially combined with blink Silence is a great combat spell (although poorly worded and suffering from version shock). Alter self can help you avoid so many bad situations it's insane. I'd ditch invisibility or mirror image for this character -- most would keep one of them, but against one humanoid, it's not worth it. I'd fill that spell with: Delay poison (immunity to poison, can be precast, lasts for hours). I like glitterdust. You also need a fortitude save spell versus mages, and this spell provides that. level 3: -BLINK!!! (you must get this spell, it is almost like improved evasion, if you fails the save, you will get half damage; also almost every targered spell will miss half the time, needs two spells to be counted and you will attack as an invisible guy (no enemy dex-+2 to attack) -Mayor Imagen (cast invisility and then throw an illusion of yourself far of you, by example) -Haste or phantom steed(the first if you are meleeing the second will keep you very far away for melee). -Dispell magic!! Blink is a good spell. . . but the negatives of using it almost outweigh the benefits. I usually would prefer displacement, however, with the possible true seeing aspect of the level 12 fight, blink has an edge. . . but it's still not beaten by improved invisibility (explained below). I'd rather take see invisibility instead. It's absolutely so essential that you keep your move actions (instead of move action to get scroll, standard action cast) that it's worth it to have it as a spell known. Haste is probably overkill in this fight. . . it's also a team spell without a team. And phantom steed is fragile. We need an area attack spell of some kind vs. summoned creatures, and we have a few to choose from. I'd say fear or confusion. . . with fear getting a slight lead due to not being in the enchantment school (lots of creatures (and monks) get +2 vs. enchantments). Dispel Magic is good. I LOVE major image, but I don't think it would be the best choice for this combat. I'd take cure serious wounds instead and free up a 4th level slot. level 4: -Shout (Can tear apart scrolls and potions, a good starter spell) Or Shadow conjuration (pleny of uses, melf´s arrow it is pretty good, same with scorching ray). -zone of silence -Cure Critical wonds (the best one) Improved invisibility it is a nice spell, but blink it is superior, specially fighting against wizards or if you arent to melee (displacement will give you the same bonuses). Well, the lack of improved invisibility is debatable. I'd rather the enemy waste a turn casting see invisibility than get some benefits that a ring of evasion could provide (and losing a substantial amount of attacks and spells). Targeting is the key here. I like blink, but I'd trade it out for improved invisibility. Change cure critical wounds for dimension door (MUST HAVE). Dominate person is by far the best spell for this character. . . if you know your enemy is a humanoid, then cast a spell that essentially nukes humanoids! Zone of silence is great in this situation. As it lasts for hours, it should be cast as a prebuff. EDIT: So, my spell list would look something like this: 1st level (4): Expeditious Retreat Feather Fall Grease Silent Image 2nd level (4): Alter Self Hold Person Glitterdust Silence 3rd level (4): Cure Serious Wounds Dispel Magic Fear See Invisibility 4th level (3): Improved Invisibility Zone of Silence Dimension Door (note: Caoslayer listed more spells for 4th level than you get. In that case, DP is replaced with hold person, which replaces delay poison. You won't be needing poison resistance that much -- hopefully.)
CaoSlayer 10-20-04, 12:42 PM	But don't forget your OWN chances to miss with Blink... And silence is probably not the best choice. Either the sorcerer will have the silent spell metamagic, or the cleric or wizard will have it and prepare at least 2-3 spells for that contingency. Now, to keep things fair, I would say that there should be no spells in play except through items at the start. That way a meele combatant would not be disadvantaged. Also, the spell contest won't just come down to who prepared for the best spell combinations. This ain't no wizards duel! of course, without miss-change would be a broken spell, still the 50% "SR" to every spell it is worth of it... and a level 7 bard level 5 rogue would be terrific :D je je je, that is the whole point of silence, a silent sorcerer should will be unable to cast this highest level spells and having to cast them as a full round action means that he is not going to move, get a spear and he will be unable to cast with the proper prepared actions. And a wizard only will be able to cast that, 3-4 prepared spells, that means no highest level spells and that is spellcasting it is limited to 4 rounds, no bad. If you keep away the bard´s spells, then the bard sucks a big time, almost as much as a rogue without sneak attack or a fighter naked... A bard without spells should be comparable to a bard with good BAB and d8 for HP (like the war chanter prc)
CaoSlayer 10-20-04, 01:09 PM	(lot of stuff) hideus laughter it is a pretty good spell, I almost preffer it over hold person because lasts more than one round.. only it is more worth HP when you have allies and they can C de Grace the enemy at the same round and there is not much better spell at level 1... also it is a pretty cheap option for carrying it in a storing sword. about delay poison... if you are getting hitting by a weapon, then you are doing something wrong... casting grease in enemy´s weapon, or disarming with a whip or keeping outside of melee with phantom or retreat are a must.. ranged poisoned weapons are weak(cheap) or few(expensible). mirror imagen against a druid or a cleric it is PRICELESS, they dont have any cheap way to dispell it like wizard´s magic misiles and warrior´s cleave and then if they try to harm and hits a mirror imagen, the harm spell will fail. And same with targered spells... ever with a wizard, if he dont prepares all this level 1 spells with magic missiles, you can make him waste this magic missiles and then gain the previous protection against single targered spells. and about Impr inv... if you wants to get him waste a round, then use the normal inv. it is a waste having to learn a level 4 spell for being dispelled by a level 2 one. Also blinks usually grants inmunity to gapple. (depend of the master´s house rule about gappling a guy who is switching planes :rolleyes: ). Also blink can stacks with mirror imagen by official FAQ rules being a truly untouchable character.
Mirror, Mirror 10-20-04, 01:10 PM	If you keep away the bard´s spells, then the bard sucks a big time, almost as much as a rogue without sneak attack or a fighter naked... "At the start", meaning "NO previous buffs". Otherwise, this could be a very trivial battle (well, more so than it already is...) And at the risk of giving away too many good ideas, Maximize Ray of Enfeeblement. Not only is there no save, 11 points of STR damage is devestating to ANY character.
CaoSlayer 10-20-04, 01:18 PM	Been reading this thread for awhile... If Yade goes Barb, he'll get his ass handed to him. If yade goes bard... lets not go there. If Yade goes cleric, I think that in this case Yade would win. Same with druid, But Yade would probably completely slaughter the Bard If yade goes fighter, I think he'll lose, put that depends on how it is played. If yade goes monk, then bard will win. If yade goes paladin, all he can hope for if to win initiative and do a mounted charge, or he'll lose very quickly. If Yade goes Ranger, I think eventually the Bard would win, but I don't know. If Yade goes rogue, he'll pick up a ring of blinking and will probably slaughter the Bard, cause he'll get many MANY attacks/round and deal +6d6 sneak attack with each, plus UMD. But if bard goes invis then he's ok. If Yade goes sorc/wiz, I think he'll win. let me see: wtw (way to win easily) wtl (way to lose this fight) Pure melee: wtw: keeping away from him, disarming and grabing the weapon, outfight him with buffers, specially displacement-blink-improved inv. wtl: not using a single spell. Rogue: just cast a spell that gives miss chances and he will be unable to sneak, so they will have the same raw fighting power but bard still can use spells and songs having a way better upper hand. Priest: wtw: mirror imagen = protection from this most nasty spell. wtl: look mage. Mage: wtw: S&S = Silent and Slay wtl: allowing them to cast spells
CaoSlayer 10-20-04, 01:23 PM	"At the start", meaning "NO previous buffs". Otherwise, this could be a very trivial battle (well, more so than it already is...) And at the risk of giving away too many good ideas, Maximize Ray of Enfeeblement. Not only is there no save, 11 points of STR damage is devestating to ANY character. aaaah, okey, althrought high duration spells (hour/level) should be allowed because any adventure can and may use them at the morning (12 hours of duration). --- nice spell, but there is a lot of ways to counter it: inv. : you cant target it mirror imagen: guess the right one blink: 50% miss change Ready action -> nasty spell when spell casted
Mirror, Mirror 10-20-04, 01:30 PM	BTW, Clerics CAN cast Blade Barrier and Flame Strike. Actually, a Quickened Hold Person and a Blade Barrier is quite nasty...
Yade 10-20-04, 02:21 PM	Out-of-character knowledge should be witheld. Other than knowing eachothers items things that the characters would not know should not be given to them. I am also curious to find out what our starting positions are going to be. I am assuming max hitpoints for each character.
meabolex 10-20-04, 02:43 PM	hideus laughter it is a pretty good spell, I almost preffer it over hold person because lasts more than one round.. Hideous laughter typically isn't worth it in the standard game, but I could see it used in this situation. I'm just used to having an extremely wide array of opponent types to deal with (: about delay poison... if you are getting hitting by a weapon, then you are doing something wrong... casting grease in enemy´s weapon, or disarming with a whip or keeping outside of melee with phantom or retreat are a must.. ranged poisoned weapons are weak(cheap) or few(expensible). But, given a bard's typical low fortitude save, poison is extremely dangerous. I don't put a lot of strength into a bard. . . but a few blasts of large scorpion venom (200 gp per charge) is enough to take out a bard. YMMV, but I'd like to be immune to as many fortitude saves as possible. They have consistently been deadly to my bard characters. mirror imagen against a druid or a cleric it is PRICELESS True seeing is enough to negate it for clerics and mages. The limited usefulness for druids alone isn't considerable. and about Impr inv... if you wants to get him waste a round, then use the normal inv. it is a waste having to learn a level 4 spell for being dispelled by a level 2 one. But, as soon as I attack, I'm a big target. Again, targeting is key. With zone of silence, it is virtually impossible for a character to pinpoint your location. You run around casting hold person or hideous laughter until someone fails a save. . . but no one can take a listen check against you and the spot checks are extremely hard to make. Also blinks usually grants inmunity to gapple. (depend of the master´s house rule about gappling a guy who is switching planes :rolleyes: ). Which is why you dimension door hundreds of feet away if you're grappled (: Also blink can stacks with mirror imagen by official FAQ rules being a truly untouchable character. Untouchable until someone uses their spell-storing weapon/ring to cast a clevel 9 magic missile to destroy a lot of the images -- blink doesn't help there. Two rounds of buffing cancelled by a level 1 wizard spell? No thanks.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-20-04, 05:37 PM	Maybe we should have more of these. Sorcerer vs. Wizard? Fighter vs. Cleric? Anyone taking bets? Unless there's something similar on these boards, I'd be happy to host a weekly fight club. Two characters enter, one character leaves... then the other character leaves after being declared the winner.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-20-04, 05:39 PM	Unless there's something similar on these boards, I'd be happy to host a weekly fight club. Two characters enter, one character leaves... then the other character leaves after being declared the winner. "That doesn't sound too bad." "Did I mention the crippling pain? I'm sure I did. Oh yes, definately." (I believe that's the core collesium... or however you spell that.)
Yade 10-20-04, 10:32 PM	OK I am submitting my character now. I am asking that the sheets not be revealed unti after the duel due to the fact that it is primarily out of character knowledge. Other than race and obvious apparel nothing else should be known. Since he is a bard and has no spellcraft he will have no way of knowing what spells I am casting until the effect has been resolved, if there is no visible effect he will have no idea what spell I have cast.
BlaineTog 10-20-04, 10:37 PM	Since he is a bard and has no spellcraft he will have no way of knowing what spells I am casting until the effect has been resolved, if there is no visible effect he will have no idea what spell I have cast.Bards have spellcraft as a class skill. Or did you mean this specific character build? I haven't seen it, so I don't know what skills Vall's maxed.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-20-04, 10:50 PM	Heh.... I forgot to buy ammunition....
BlaineTog 10-20-04, 10:56 PM	Because we all know how expensive arrows are... ;)
Yade 10-20-04, 10:57 PM	Blaine I mean unless he put ranks into it. Essentially the moderator should not autmotically tell everyone what spell was cast. Furthermore, our saves will be kept secret as well, unless there is a visible result either way.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-20-04, 11:01 PM	Guh? That's an aweful lot of PMs. how about we just be honest with each other and agree not to use OOC knowledge. Blainetog: Who said arrows? We agreed on the 3.5 DMG... I could have an antimatter rifle :P
WizO_Catoblepas 10-20-04, 11:29 PM	Ok, I've gotten both candidate's characters, so no one has backed down. However, unfortunately I have an early meeting tomorrow so I'm going to refrain from starting everything until tomorrow night. (Thursday) Also, it will give me another chance to look the characters to make sure nothing is out of line. Thus, this is the condition of the combat. You're ran into each other on a roadway and not noticed that the other is an enemy until you've closed within 150 feet of one another. It's high noon. (light isn't a issue) A heavily armored 4 foot humanoid looks upon a lightly armored 6 foot humanoid. (YOu guys can figure on whom is whom) :) After lloking over the character tomorrow, I'll roll initiative! Best of luck.
Yade 10-21-04, 12:08 AM	Ok here is how it will be the most effective We will set up a room in the WOTC chat area here is the link to the website. The room is already set up, it is called gaming http://tank.wizards.com/chat/world/html/login.html In order to get into a room you need to type /gaming. Both of us will have to PM Catabolepas using feature available in the chat room. The obvious actions and declarations will take place in the chat room for all to see. The private information such as skill checks, saves and secret moves and intentions will be done via private message. I have a dress rehearsal tomorrow night at ASU, we are doing the Faure Requiem so it could take me late. However, I will log in at 10 PM PST. It is your and my responsibility to coordinate with Catabolepas the method in which we will be able to contact him. If 10 PM PST is an acceptable time then we will meet there and set up our Private messages and the duel will begin at 10:15. My WOTC chat name is Smedlynf, you will need to get one if you do not have it. It is not related to the message boards and signing up is required so I suggest that everyone do it ahead of time. I will check this thread dilligently tonight to make sure that everyone has the correct information. Please repost if there is anything that you object to. Thanks
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 12:19 AM	Sounds alright to me. I'll sign up tomorrow. Should be fun.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 12:20 AM	*Clears throat* Allllllll righty then. Until then, we'll just speculate on who's going to do what and how effective it will be. I'm assuming its not off-topic to do that here. If it is, we can always move the press box to the Rec Room. Anyway. I'm betting dollars to dimes that Vaal's bard is a human who's decent with a shortbow but probably emphasizes his spells. Probably bard 12. Yade is a dwarf... probably. Dwarves are about 4' tall and are easily the most munchy race (;)). I'd like to say he's gone Eldrith Knight, but thats unlikely as he's in heavy armor. Chances are its either a Cleric (in which case the battle is likely over. I've seen several dwarven clerics. Its not pretty) or Fighter (also over, but in a different direction). If he's got Mithril armor, however, then he may well be a Barbarian, which gives him a better chance, although not much better. Paladin is possible, but not likely. Vaal's bard is probably either neutral or good, so a Pally might not even be able to attack. Personally, I'd like to here more about these two candidates. We don't know how either of them stand on anything, what things they hold dear, and so forth. Its fun being a Pundit. Comedy Central is right: its also fun to say "Pundit." :D
Yade 10-21-04, 01:10 AM	Elven Monk with heavy armor proficiency... PHB Dwarven fighter, we'll see if he dies as fast as you think. Halfling wizard with no worries about arcane spell failure. Drow cleric, DMG has the info on sub-races (gotta love that automatic 24 spell resistance) This could be interesting.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 01:11 AM	Elven Monk with heavy armor proficiency...:twitch: Halfling wizard with no worries about arcane spell failure.With Core-only, its not possible. Drow cleric, DMG has the info on sub-races (gotta love that automatic 24 spell resistance)Gotta hate the LA. (PS: SR 22).
Yade 10-21-04, 01:24 AM	LA? no worries does not mean that it does not exist, it's just not a big concern.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 01:28 AM	LA?Level Adjustment. Being a drow costs you 2 levels, 2 Hit Dice. Thats why an ECL 12 Drow would have SR 22: 12 + Hit Dice (10). no worries does not mean that it does not exist, it's just not a big concern.Heavy armor ASF is too nasty to just swallow. Of course, its less of an issue in a one-shot.
Yade 10-21-04, 01:33 AM	No one said anything about the level adjustment, just that the character is at level 12.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-21-04, 01:40 AM	No one said anything about the level adjustment, just that the character is at level 12. And a Drow with 10 levels in a PC class is the equivelent of a 12th level character.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 01:41 AM	Since drow generally aren't 4 feet tall and you probably wouldn't tell us what you actually rolled up, I'm not too concerned. Does this mean I can have my anti matter rifle? :D
Yade 10-21-04, 01:56 AM	Well, I wont argue. I did not choose a drow, I would hate to win and have some technicality detract from the victory. The fact that I am short and heavily armored should make my choice obvious. My posts should indicate that I am not worried about losing the battle to a bard. My main concern is that he is not going to be bard-like, because he would obviously lose miserably if he did. Which is ironic because that was one of my main points. I am sure that there will be no music in this contest, lol.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 02:01 AM	Yo're right at that last point because my perform skill is Oration like I said in my very first post on this thread.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 02:21 AM	No one said anything about the level adjustment, just that the character is at level 12.:rolleyes: Does this mean I can have my anti matter rifle? :DClearly. Its not more munchky than getting to play a Drow for free. Although if that was the case, you'de be much better off playing a Rakshasha. :devil: Which is ironic because that was one of my main points.Bardic Spellcasting is Bardic Music, just applied in a different way. Of course, if he wins Initiative, he can Fascinate you. In which case you, you know, die without question.
Yade 10-21-04, 02:37 AM	fascinate is not terminal, if he wins initiative he will most likely do something un-bardlike.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 02:45 AM	Terminal enough. As a burn does not kill as much as the following infection does, fascinate only sets up a cascading effect. Also, what exactly is unbardlike about using the skills, spells, abilities and wealth of a 12th level bard?
Jell_Moo 10-21-04, 02:48 AM	As somebody who has been silently following this thread, and has been thoroughly amused by it, I have to ask what he could do that would be "un-bardlike"? He could attack with a Ranged weapon. Yup, Bards do that. He could attack with a melee weapon. From time to time Bards do that as well. He could use Bardic Music. Certainly that's Bardlike. He could cast a spell. Bards do cast spells. He could trigger a magic item. Bardic Spells and UMD? Sure, the Bard does that. So really, what could he possibly do that would be un-bardlike? Possibly drop his weapons and magic items, rush forward and try to resort to fisticuffs. That would probably be un-bardlike. Of course, that would also be amazingly stupid. Bards are capable of doing so many different things, that saying he's going to do something "un-bardlike" is a rather strange statement.
Snommelp 10-21-04, 03:01 AM	I'm hoping I can show up to watch the battle myself, but if I can't make it would someone be alright with posting an account of the fight? It doesn't have to be extremely detailed, just a general blow-by-blow or something.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 03:05 AM	Actually, if you guys can somehow do it through a chat room (just Cat, Vaal, and Yade), you could easily save the whole convo, making the posting a simple copy->paste... I second what Jell_Moo said. Bards have such range that its hard to think of something that is really truly not bardic in any way.
Yade 10-21-04, 03:08 AM	When I say unbardlike I can see that I am being vague. Let me clarify; he will resort to fighting me in a manner that is not unique or distinctive to the bard. He will inevitably become a weak mage or fighter and pursue me that way. His fascinate is not likely to do much for him and he is not likely to try and use it for long. ven if the save is 40ish.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 03:10 AM	its hard to think of something that is really truly not bardic in any way. "So there I was, face to face with the Batman. And I threw a rock at him! ..... It was a big rock." ^ I'd say that's probably unbardly.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 03:13 AM	When I say unbardlike I can see that I am being vague. Let me clarify; he will resort to fighting me in a manner that is not unique or distinctive to the bard. He will inevitably become a weak mage or fighter and pursue me that way.What's your point? Bards are partially single-classed gish, which means weakened casting + weakened fighting. Attacking in either of those ways is bardic. His fascinate is not likely to do much for him and he is not likely to try and use it for long. ven if the save is 40ish.If he wins Initiative (which is likely), he can use Fascinate on you. You will fail. You pretty much have to roll a 20 to pass, in which case you win by a fluke. Then, you get to try to make 12 will saves vs. suggestion. If you fail one, I'm sure Vaal has something suitably damning for you. "So there I was, face to face with the Batman. And I threw a rock at him! ..... It was a big rock." ^ I'd say that's probably unbardly.So it would seem... on the surface. Of course, only a bard would think of throwing a really big rock that he can't lift at someone!!! ;)
Snommelp 10-21-04, 03:14 AM	Part of being a bard is being a mage and a fighter... and a cleric... and a rogue... so it would hardly be "unbardlike" if he were to use those skills, especially if he used skills not normally seen together on other characters, like arcane spells and melee combat. Even if he does rely mostly on melee, it is likely he will use his "bardic music" (or rather, bardic oration) to boost himself, which would certainly not be "unbardlike." The same is probably true if he decides to rely on spells, or on roguishness. Simply put, even if he does decide to be a "weak mage or fighter," he will still be using unique bard abilities. Responding to BlaineTog: you're right, it would be better if it were just the three of them. That way there aren't comments from we observers.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 03:21 AM	If he wins Initiative (which is likely), he can use Fascinate on you. You will fail. You pretty much have to roll a 20 to pass, in which case you win by a fluke. Then, you get to try to make 12 will saves vs. suggestion. If you fail one, I'm sure Vaal has something suitably damning for you. Actually, I can't. We open combat at range 150ft, fascinate is range 90ft. Thankfully, through this entire thread, no one has mentioned any substantial part of my game plan.
Yade 10-21-04, 03:23 AM	Fascinate and suggestion are his key skills? And with that you hope to destroy me? I assure you that he is not likely to try those things, he is likely to assume that they wont work. He might try to fascinate me so that he can buff himself up, but other than that, he is not likely to get much done with trying to suggest anything. The suggest ability is a DC 10 + 1/2 the level of the caster so it is 16 now plus his charisma modifier, oh and he is assuming I speak his language. I enjoy the fact that I have single handedly had to fend you guys off for several days, and I can only imagine the cowardly manner in which you will respond when the bard dies. I hope you are as garrolous in defeat as you are in boast. Oh I forgot to add that the suggestion ability is the only one that he can do while I am fascinated. So he gets to stand there for 12 rounds picking his nose and singing along for no reason. The bard is a support character, and this bard has no support. fun
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 03:38 AM	Actually, I can't. We open combat at range 150ft, fascinate is range 90ft.Play a Human. Use Boots of Speed and a Move action. Poof, in range. Fascinate and suggestion are his key skills?Together, they can be some of his more potent weapons. I assure you that he is not likely to try those things, he is likely to assume that they wont work.But they would work, if he wins Init. He might try to fascinate me so that he can buff himself up, but other than that, he is not likely to get much done with trying to suggest anything. The suggest ability is a DC 10 + 1/2 the level of the caster so it is 16 now plus his charisma modifier, oh and he is assuming I speak his language.A) You can't make 12 of those saves. B) Clever/Creative use of Suggestion is essential for power. B) Of course he speaks your language. You both know common. Virtually everyone knows common. I enjoy the fact that I have single handedly had to fend you guys off for several days, and I can only imagine the cowardly manner in which you will respond when the bard dies.You haven't succesfully fended us of, as we've pretty much destroyed your points time and time again. But no matter. Quite honestly, I don't care either way if it wins. It prooves nothing. 'Specially since you had an inherent advantage or two. Oh I forgot to add that the suggestion ability is the only one that he can do while I am fascinated. So he gets to stand there for 12 rounds picking his nose and singing along for no reason.No, he gets to make 12 suggestions. And you get to fail at least one of them.
Zelphi 10-21-04, 05:44 AM	Stuff Drow, use a Troll character.. or something else with Regen... anyway. This is getting more absurd by the minute... "Bards are lesser Wizards" which doesn't stop them from being better Fighters than Wizards, and better rogues, and better clerics. Get it through your head damn you, Bards aren't useless if they support the party in ways no-other can.
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 06:27 AM	yeah, suggestion with imagination or the right words it is godly... suggestions like "get naked" are priceless and if you are an female sexy elf and add "get naked and let´s ***k" any master would grant you a great bonus to the DC (suitable suggestions gets a better DC). And fascinate´s use isnt just sugestion, just fascinate and then change to another bardic music and/or spells, this will give him free rounds. I have to read the topic, yet... another advice to the one using the bard: buy a lot of dispell magic scrolls, it is a must and a funny thing to see how a wizard can commit suicide if casts fly and then you dispell it. :rolleyes:
Zelphi 10-21-04, 06:52 AM	Can someone tell me, roughly when this fight would've started from my posting time?
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 07:55 AM	Thus, this is the condition of the combat. You're ran into each other on a roadway and not noticed that the other is an enemy until you've closed within 150 feet of one another. It's high noon. (light isn't a issue) A heavily armored 4 foot humanoid looks upon a lightly armored 6 foot humanoid. (YOu guys can figure on whom is whom) :) After lloking over the character tomorrow, I'll roll initiative! Best of luck. lol, this is going to be amousing. he have commited a clear mistake taking a heavy armor dwarf; his movement it is going to be 20 and wil run up to 20x3 = 60 feets, that means that if the bard casts expeditious retreat, he will move 60 feets. So is going to be imposible to be hit by harm. Also being a cleric, see inv. it is out of this list and purge needs to be close to the target and true seeing to be at 120 feet range so he have not counter against impr. inv. (read adobe). And finally he will have a patetic reflex raves, this game be exploit by shout that will mean that every scroll and potion will blow away or grease that will make this spellcasting very hard. My recomended estrategy: 1ş normal invisibilty (the normal it is better at start because you are going to buffer the next rounds) and move to a random location 2ş Expeditious retreat and move to a random location 3ş run or move beyond blade´s barrier range (220 feets) 4ş cast haste 7ş cast improved inv. or blink 5ş sing inspire greatness and keep away from him 6ş sing inspire courage and keep away from cleric 8ş finish him, using many shoots so you can hit many times and move it is recomended. -dont try any enchantment, neither fascination, the situation dont require it. -dont try close combat unless you have spring attack -dont let him cast. -if you prepare a many shoot against a spell, he will be very lucky to pull it. -alter self is not required, he arent going to shoot you -if it is an archer cleric, he only is able to buff himself once, cast dispell magic after a couple of rounds, and if fails, try again if he fails the buffing will be a mediocre archer; also you can be risky and try to disarm the bow with a whip. I cant think anything more... EDIT: yeah, keeping away isnt very heroic... but it is a way to win against the most overpowered class in the book.
TheManNamedMee 10-21-04, 10:09 AM	What happens if Yade's character is deaf? You know, this is definitely going to be interesting since Yade is making a character specifically aimed at countering a bard whereas Vaalingrade Ashland is presenting a character that has not been tailored to meet a specific challenge. Since Yade already knew what he was up against he hopefully and intelligently created a character built to counter the strengths of a bard. In my limited 3.x experience, [pauses to reflect back on countless 1st/2nd Edition games :weep: ] I could probably come up with a counter-character to play against a bard. My prediction is that Yade wins easily.
meabolex 10-21-04, 10:27 AM	lol, this is going to be amousing. he have commited a clear mistake taking a heavy armor dwarf; his movement it is going to be 20 and wil run up to 20x3 = 60 feets, that means that if the bard casts expeditious retreat, he will move 60 feets. So is going to be imposible to be hit by harm. Not with boots of striding and springing. However, I assume Vaal took either winged boots, has a scroll of fly, or some other flying mechanism. Even assuming the dwarf can reach him with running, the bard can theoretically DD far away from combat (and still be in range for long-distance spells -- like from the staff of fire). Also being a cleric, see inv. it is out of this list and purge needs to be close to the target and true seeing to be at 120 feet range so he have not counter against impr. inv. (read adobe). True seeing is what I'm worried about. . . not purge! Edit: misread this -- he'll be farther back to stay out of tree seeing's range, but that's all based on the assumption that his movement speed will be very low. However, it's probably safe to say the bard will have better speed. And finally he will have a patetic reflex raves, this game be exploit by shout that will mean that every scroll and potion will blow away or grease that will make this spellcasting very hard. I recommend a staff of fire coupled with a wand (or a couple f scrolls) of enervation. 1ş normal invisibilty (the normal it is better at start because you are going to buffer the next rounds) and move to a random location I'd say DD as far away as possible. 3ş run or move beyond blade´s barrier range (220 feets) Blade barrier shouldn't be a problem to a bard. While the cleric's DC can be high, a bard shouldn't have much problem with this spell. Besides, the bard could, in theory, have a scroll of greater spell immunity activated by a VERY high UMD check. 15 (ranks) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) + 3 (Skill Focus: UMD) + 2 (Magical Aptitude) + 2 (spellcraft synergy) + 2 (decipher script) + 6 (Charisma) = 33, which is what he needs to activate a greater spell immunity scroll. . . not even COUNTING the rolled number. Also, a trivial ability score check (minimum 19, which is auto-pass). With that, he can pick: harm, blade barrier, flame strike, slay living. . . 4ş cast haste No point really if he has expeditious retreat. Either this spell or expeditious retreat. The attack benefits from the haste are honestly minimal unless you're including the fact that it can affect a party. I'd say boots of haste. . . they're better than boots of striding and springing. 7ş cast improved inv. or blink With tree seeing present, the object to dispel it as soon as possible. Blink can possibly cause a dispel magic to fail. . . thus I heavily recommend against blink. 5ş sing inspire greatness and keep away from him 6ş sing inspire courage and keep away from cleric 8ş finish him, using many shoots so you can hit many times and move it is recomended. One thing that isn't being considered is that the AC of the cleric might be outrageous. I was going to recommend about 10 +1 bane arrows for every humanoid type (orc, dwarf, gnome, halfling, human, elf) (~9,000 gp). Of course, you could use 25 +1 brilliant energy arrows. (25,000gp ish). -dont try any enchantment, neither fascination, the situation dont require it. I'd fascinate if I got cornered. It's a good escape strategy. Even a decked-out cleric with a looney will save wouldn't be able to resist. -if it is an archer cleric, he only is able to buff himself once, cast dispell magic after a couple of rounds, and if fails, try again if he fails the buffing will be a mediocre archer; also you can be risky and try to disarm the bow with a whip. Grease might be a better tactic for disarming him. . . maybe Heightened grease. . .
meabolex 10-21-04, 10:49 AM	My prediction is that Yade wins easily. Given Yade's somewhat shaky knowledge of core rules (a monk with heavy armor proficiency?!?!) and the fact that Vaal has been around these boards forever with plenty of posts regarding strategy and tactics (and almost 6k posts), I would venture that the odds of Yade winning are worse than Mirror's prediction: My odds - 6:1
Yade 10-21-04, 10:52 AM	So you don't think that I can make 12 saves vs his suggestions? I have stated before that anything that someone writes on these boards can be countered by many other people and then anything that they say will again be countered by many other people. I could take a psionic tarrasque spellfire as my character and most of you could find a way that Vaal's bard could beat it in combat, it's easy to sit there and dig through the source books and shoot out the bull. We will see after this duel is over. I am still telling you that this is a contest of magic items, because otherwise Vaal has no chance.
Yade 10-21-04, 11:01 AM	Given Yade's somewhat shaky knowledge of core rules (a monk with heavy armor proficiency?!?!) and the fact that Vaal has been around these boards forever with plenty of posts regarding strategy and tactics (and almost 6k posts), I would venture that the odds of Yade winning are worse than Mirror's prediction: My odds - 6:1 I suppose that participation on these boards are the defining mark of an experienced and intelligent gamer. The monk was a joke, apparently that escaped you. Before you try and get smart I was joking about the halfling too.
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 11:03 AM	Smart money's still on the Bard. A deaf dwarf would easy neutralize most of the most potient Bardic abilities, but a cleric vs a bard is still bad news for the cleric. Especially a dwarf in heavy armor. Now, what if that's a sorcerer or wizard with the Still Spell metamagic ability? Casts at 1 level higher, but gets the benefit of heavy armor. A wizard may not have the top level spells aviliable to him, but the rest of his spells would be, and there are plenty of low-level damaging spells aviliable to him. And a ring of counterspells would virtually guarantee at least a couple of rounds of spell casting before the bard could compensate. Of course the character couldn't be deaf...unless all his spells were Silent AND Still!! Not a very viable character for everyday use, but good enough for a 1 shot. Only a few spells aviliable to him, but highly resistant to the bards attacks.
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 11:08 AM	I suppose that participation on these boards are the defining mark of an experienced and intelligent gamer. The monk was a joke, apparently that escaped you. Before you try and get smart I was joking about the halfling too. I got the joke. AND I thought it was quite funny. And you are correct the board participation means almost nothing. My odds are based on my estimation that, for every venue of attack you choose, the bard has 3 options of defense and counterattack. Thus, if your first strategy fails, the bard will outmaneuver you and will win. If, however, your strategy succeeds, I have no doubt of your victory. 3 chances of victory vs 1. Thus 3-1 odds... However, upon furthur contemplation, I think the odds are even if Yade plays a straight fighter (non-elf? :D ) A fighter might have many options aviliable to him at 12th level and has enough feats to try to outmaneuver the Bard. A deaf dwarven fighter with boots of teleportation? And a mighty composite bow?
meabolex 10-21-04, 11:12 AM	I suppose that participation on these boards are the defining mark of an experienced and intelligent gamer. Most of this contest is sheer knowledge of the rules. And honestly, I'd say Vaal has an advantage based on what I've read. We will see after this duel is over. Heh, good luck (:
mzprox 10-21-04, 11:29 AM	....PLUS Knowledge everything +13 (bardic music). Boytbpc I haven't read the whole topic, but I don't it could work...
meabolex 10-21-04, 11:52 AM	Hmmm. If a bard can get 14 Intelligence at the beginning, pump it up to 22 with a headband of intellect +6 and a tome +2, get a stone of luck, a pale green ioun stone, and put 5 ranks in each knowledge skill listed in the PH (10 skills, 50 skill points, taking at minimal 3-4 levels of skill points including first level), you could indeed have +13 in each knowledge skill. Of course, there are knowledge skills that aren't in the PH. . . but those could be covered fairly quickly (:
mzprox 10-21-04, 11:59 AM	You missed something :) with bardic music.. I don't think it is possible that you want to know something and therefor ask your party's bard to start singing :)
meabolex 10-21-04, 12:03 PM	You missed something :) with bardic music.. I don't think it is possible that you want to know something and therefor ask your party's bard to start singing :) I guess I just tried to answer the most logical idea. . . which was, is it possible to get +13 to all knowledge skills. You can use bardic knowledge. . . But yeah, singing for smarts? Perhaps inspire competence on another bard? :confused:
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 12:17 PM	lol, by the way which are the limit of money and items available? I remember in a tournament, there was a pool of 12kgp for each combat and most casters started to throw things like meteor storm, prismatic walls, shapechange and such. And the from then know as "bag of Firfin" that was a normal leather bag with 4-5 of those explosive balls that causes 5d6 force damage and if the target fails a dex save, gets jailed in a force sfere. I would like to see this fight decided by class features power, not items...
TheManNamedMee 10-21-04, 12:28 PM	Come on, who with a moderate amount of experience couldn't create a character specifically designed to counter another character class? I don't doubt Vaal's abiltity. I have referenced many times the plethora of Vaal's insightful knowledge that has so generously been given through many posts on a variety of topics. However, I believe that anybody with a decent grasp of character strengths and weaknesses not to mention prudent item/spell selection can counter another character. Vaal is not familiar with Yade's character so Vaal cannot know what Yade's strengths/weaknesses are. Is he a fighter type or spell-caster? A meleeist or ranged attack specialist? Does he have spell countering abilities/items? Nor can Vaal know what Yade has done to compensate for his characters s/w's. However the advantage goes to Yade because Yade knows that Vaal is playing a bard so he has the benefit of selecting skills/feats/spells/magic items to counter a bards s/w's. It's not too hard to realize that there are posters on these boards who could come up with an anti-bard much easier than a bard can come up with an anti-all character class tactic :) . EDIT: By the way, I am not siding with Yade on the topic of this thread. I have found Bards to be quite useful and extremely fun to roleplay in any edition.
DragonsArt 10-21-04, 12:28 PM	Oh, by the way. A bard versus a rogue would do fine, since he can't sneak attack anyway. But that's not the point. I hope you don't really believe this... 3rd level rogue (14hp, AC 16) vs 3rd level bard (14hp, AC 15) = dead bard Whisper Gnome Rogue vs Any Race Bard 1st round - Rogue will probably go first since he has a higher DEX sneak attack with TWF (1d6+1d6/1d6+1d6) = 12pts + Silencing Strike Bard - attacks 1d8 = 6pts 2nd round - Rogue attacks - 1d6 + 1d6 = 5 pts Bard - dies Let's see if the bard goes first... 1st round - Bard - starts singing to get bonus Rogue moves in and feints 2nd round - Bard attacks (7pts) Rogue sneak attacks (1d6+1d6/1d6+1d6) = 12 pts plus silencing strike 3rd round - Bard attacks (6pts) Rogue attacks (1d6/1d6) = 7 pts 4th round - Bard dies
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 12:29 PM	I would like to see this fight decided by class features power, not items... Which is why, BTW, I would have taken up Yade on his stipulation that there be no [magical] equipment. In fact, a naked bard flappin in the breeze would be just too embarassing to fight against. "I use my Fascinate ability" "Fascinate?? I have to make a will save just to KEEP looking at you without laughing!"
DragonsArt 10-21-04, 12:30 PM	Hmmm. If a bard can get 14 Intelligence at the beginning, pump it up to 22 with a headband of intellect +6 and a tome +2, get a stone of luck, a pale green ioun stone, and put 5 ranks in each knowledge skill listed in the PH (10 skills, 50 skill points, taking at minimal 3-4 levels of skill points including first level), you could indeed have +13 in each knowledge skill. Of course, there are knowledge skills that aren't in the PH. . . but those could be covered fairly quickly (: Stat increasing items no longer give extra skill points in v3.5, so your idea is v3.0 only.
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 12:33 PM	Stat increasing items no longer give extra skill points in v3.5, so your idea is v3.0 only. Not extra skill points. He wants the INT bonus to knowledge skills.
meabolex 10-21-04, 12:42 PM	Bard casts blink, invisibility, displacement, blur, darkness. . . rogue can't sneak attack. Advantage - Bard.
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 12:45 PM	I hope you don't really believe this... 3rd level rogue (14hp, AC 16) vs 3rd level bard (14hp, AC 15) = dead bard Whisper Gnome Rogue vs Any Race Bard 1st round - Rogue will probably go first since he has a higher DEX sneak attack with TWF (1d6+1d6/1d6+1d6) = 12pts + Silencing Strike Bard - attacks 1d8 = 6pts 2nd round - Rogue attacks - 1d6 + 1d6 = 5 pts Bard - dies Let's see if the bard goes first... 1st round - Bard - starts singing to get bonus Rogue moves in and feints 2nd round - Bard attacks (7pts) Rogue sneak attacks (1d6+1d6/1d6+1d6) = 12 pts plus silencing strike 3rd round - Bard attacks (6pts) Rogue attacks (1d6/1d6) = 7 pts 4th round - Bard dies um? eeer... 1ş what a stupid bard 2ş what hapens with attacks rolls? you are assuming that everyone hits without caring about AC and the TWF penalties; a bard can use a shield, so that means +2 AC vs a rogue with both using a chain shirt and by your rogue damage, he is using two swort swords, that means -2 to hit each... 3ş whisper gnomes are non core and broken; also they need to get a starting charisma of 12 that will become 10 for casting silence... 4ş Sense motive it is a bardic class skill, and a very good one to have, so isnt that easy to feint them, ever if he max bluff. 5ş they are face to face, add some distance. 6ş asume that the bard uses laughter spell or sleep (oh! rogues have just a +1 base will save!) and then gets tree rounds of free attacks or coups de grace. 7ş and if uses fascinate, moves some rounds and attack you with an bow(or casts a spell? that it is like typing Xş round: wizard attacks with this staff 1d6 damage fighter power attacks 3 points with a two handed sword (2d6 +6) *wizard dies*
DragonsArt 10-21-04, 12:48 PM	Elven 5th level fighter/7th level Order of the Bow Initiate... with Improved Initiative will more than likely clean house with a 12th level bard.... (DEX 16 + 3 stat increases, +4 stat item) = DEX 23 (+6) Init: +10 BAB: +12/+6/+1 * with non-magical mighty composite bow = +20/+12/+7 * with rapid shot = +18/+18/+10/+5 * with PBS = +19/+19/+11/+6 * with IMPROVED rapid shot = +21/+21/+13/+7 Damage: * 1d8 + 2 (str) + 2 (spec) + 1 (PBS) + 4d8 /1d8 + 5 (rapid shot) * 1d8 + 2 (str) + 2 (spec) + 1 (PBS) + 4d8 * 1d8 + 2 (str) + 2 (spec) + 1 (PBS) + 4d8 First round damage: 35 + 11 + 35 = 81 (if the 3rd shot hits that's another 35 for 116) Max bard hit points at 12 without CON = 72, Average with +2 CON = 79 Bard goes down. If you want to min-max the archer a little more... give him a STR item, a +3 mighty bow of flaming and add even more damage. Bards are nice... they have their place... and their place is IN A GROUP. Solo... they are at a disadvantage in combat situations. Edit: Forgot about improved rapid shot
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 12:52 PM	Which is why, BTW, I would have taken up Yade on his stipulation that there be no [magical] equipment. In fact, a naked bard flappin in the breeze would be just too embarassing to fight against. "I use my Fascinate ability" "Fascinate?? I have to make a will save just to KEEP looking at you without laughing!" juas juas juas! Remind me to the Order of the Stick comic the party´s bard is naked, and only will get dress under a cat´s grace spell so he can be as dexterous as naked while wearing a chain mail; so the cleric is going to cast it... but seems to think it... "why are you taking so long?" "it is a touch spell" :weep:
meabolex 10-21-04, 12:55 PM	Order of the Bow Initiate? Must be within 30 ft. of target to get 4d8 damage? Starting distance of combat 150 ft.? How are going to move at least 125 ft. (must be within 30 ft. of target) and still pull off a full attack? You move/attack with sucky damage. The bard casts blur/displacement/blink/etc. . . poof, no more ranged precision.
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 12:56 PM	Elven 5th level fighter/7th level Order of the Bow Initiate... with Improved Initiative will more than likely clean house with a 12th level bard.... (DEX 16 + 3 stat increases, +4 stat item) = DEX 23 (+6) once again you are assuming that the bard with stay in place while you are shooting him; now add to the equation the facts that the bard becomes inv. invisible, blink or displacement. EDIT: including that the first round only partial actions are allowed, no full attack at all. and now take into acount that with a healing spell can heal from 1d8 +5 to 4d8+12, so the first round damage it is negated in the second round.
DragonsArt 10-21-04, 01:03 PM	um? eeer... 1ş what a stupid bard Your point? 2ş what hapens with attacks rolls? you are assuming that everyone hits without caring about AC and the TWF penalties; a bard can use a shield, so that means +2 AC vs a rogue with both using a chain shirt and by your rogue damage, he is using two swort swords, that means -2 to hit each... True... he's at -2... bard is flat-footed or denied DEX against feint so it evens out. I could have just as easily added a snipe/hide - snipe/hide tactic. 3ş whisper gnomes are non core and broken; also they need to get a starting charisma of 12 that will become 10 for casting silence... Most rogues that plan to feint will put points in cha.... even some who don't plan to feint. As far as whisper gnomes being non-core... your point would be what? 4ş Sense motive it is a bardic class skill, and a very good one to have, so isnt that easy to feint them, ever if he max bluff. Sense motive IS a class skills... would he have it... maybe... would it be maxed... maybe... so it's even money on whether the feint wins. I'll grant you that. 5ş they are face to face, add some distance. Ok.... round one.... rogue gets suprise round from hiding, rapid shots the bard for 1d8+1d6 + 1d8 = dead bard... wow... that was fun... 6ş asume that the bard uses laughter spell or sleep (oh! rogues have just a +1 base will save!) and then gets tree rounds of free attacks or coups de grace. ASSUMING he goes first... if he's put decent points in CHA, then his DEX isn't as high as the rogues... so that's a big assumption. 7ş and if uses fascinate, moves some rounds and attack you with an bow(or casts a spell? Again... IF he gets the chance. If it's melee... he may or may not get the chance... if it's distance, chances are the rogue will snipe him for 1d8+1d6 then win initiative and move in for the kill. If he used rapid shot... the first attack will be 1d8+1d6/1d8 = dead bard that it is like typing Xş round: wizard attacks with this staff 1d6 damage fighter power attacks 3 points with a two handed sword (2d6 +6) *wizard dies* As opposed to your rebuttal of: Wizard casts sleep Hmm... Yes... there are many options... but the realistic truth is... much depends on who goes first and who makes their save. But to say any class can take on any other class.... that's idiocy. In certain situations, each class shines.
Thermanshs 10-21-04, 01:04 PM	WOOOSH! This thread bumps to often to keep track of it! What GMT does the match start? I hope my new account doesn't delay so that I miss it :( (blergh! like with my forums account, my initial chatrooms one is invalid!!!) My bet is on the bard whatever the build might be! Bards will ALWAYS be there to remind the munchkins how the game can turn into when creativity is high! -So...onward to victory Evanius!!! :fight!: (I wonder where this majorette smiley has gone... :tantrum: ) -Manyx: Do you really think that tongues conquer swords? Last time these guards caught us stealing Bernard's place you could only arrange a candle for your cell! -Well...THAT was a rather unlucky moment! Had you noticed the punk from behind who sneakily put the jewel into ma pocket? I'm sure he had something to do with the whole situation! -Manyx: All I know is that it took me 3 damn days to recover your book once it fell into the sewers!! Do you know how smelly it is down there? -Of course I do! My cell was PART of them! -Manyx: And those filthy rats...oh my goodness! So next time try something more...:rant:... -Just place your bet and shut up Manyx! -Manyx: My bet is on Evanius of course! -Then why in Mordenkainen's name do you whine all this time? Ah...I'll never reach an agreement with that cat! :rolleyes:
DragonsArt 10-21-04, 01:13 PM	once again you are assuming that the bard with stay in place while you are shooting him; now add to the equation the facts that the bard becomes inv. invisible, blink or displacement. LOL! The bard dies without ever having SEEN his attacker. He just suddenly becomes a human (or whatever) pin cushion. EDIT: including that the first round only partial actions are allowed, no full attack at all. In the REAL game, in the first round everyone gets full actions. If you're referring to a SUPRISE round... there's always Multishot.... and now take into acount that with a healing spell can heal from 1d8 +5 to 4d8+12, so the first round damage it is negated in the second round. Um... even maximized... that's 32+12 = 48 points... slightly more than half damage. At that point... he IS dead... because another 81 points is coming next round and he has used his standard action to heal himself.
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 01:15 PM	Your point? True... he's at -2... bard is flat-footed or denied DEX against feint so it evens out. I could have just as easily added a snipe/hide - snipe/hide tactic. Most rogues that plan to feint will put points in cha.... even some who don't plan to feint. As far as whisper gnomes being non-core... your point would be what? Sense motive IS a class skills... would he have it... maybe... would it be maxed... maybe... so it's even money on whether the feint wins. I'll grant you that. Ok.... round one.... rogue gets suprise round from hiding, rapid shots the bard for 1d8+1d6 + 1d8 = dead bard... wow... that was fun... ASSUMING he goes first... if he's put decent points in CHA, then his DEX isn't as high as the rogues... so that's a big assumption. Again... IF he gets the chance. If it's melee... he may or may not get the chance... if it's distance, chances are the rogue will snipe him for 1d8+1d6 then win initiative and move in for the kill. If he used rapid shot... the first attack will be 1d8+1d6/1d8 = dead bard As opposed to your rebuttal of: Wizard casts sleep Hmm... Yes... there are many options... but the realistic truth is... much depends on who goes first and who makes their save. But to say any class can take on any other class.... that's idiocy. In certain situations, each class shines. for hide-snipe you need two skill checks and a place to hide, first a bluff and then hide, again, sense motive counts against bluff and hide against spot, in this the rogue have the upper hand... but still, you again asume that the bard will stay in place instead of running to a place with low illumination, hiding also or using an area spell (sleep, grease again) in the place where he have must hide. Also remember that you cant sneak if the enemy it is more than 30 feets away. and I dont know many rogues with high charisma because the most important stats of dex, int, con and ever wisdom because the lowly will save...
Fabian Le'Trou 10-21-04, 01:18 PM	I haven't read this whole topic, and I don't plan to. So someone's probably already said this. God I hope they have. But guys, it's not all about the numbers. It's about the game! The roleplaying! I definately see the appeal of playing a wandering minstrel, and everything else the bard stands for and can be adapted to be! It's just a wonderful, fun class. Okay, the fighter does more damage. He's a fighter. He does that. Okay the rogue has more skills. He's a rogue. He does that. The bard...the bard is fun. They have so much personality and flair, that they're just a great class.
Vintar 10-21-04, 01:23 PM	The only problem that I have with bards is that they are so specific and narrow. Nearly every bard turns out the same. There isn't much versatility when everything is so reliant on Perform. Bardic music and spellcasting are what every bard gets, and not a whole lot else. One of the great things about most of the other classes is, even if the abilities are all the same, each character can be very different from another of the same class. True, bards can make themselves good at other things, especially when it comes to skills, but it's less true with them than other classes. Pretty much all bards are the singing, inspiring musicians. I think it's a valid, if limited, class. And dang it - all those fighters - they all turn out to be best at fighting! And those stupid wizards - they are all good at spell-casting. So predictable. And don't get me started on Druids - they ALL like the wilderness. You would think there would be at least one city-slicker in the bunch!... :rant:
CaoSlayer 10-21-04, 01:27 PM	I haven't read this whole topic, and I don't plan to. So someone's probably already said this. God I hope they have. But guys, it's not all about the numbers. It's about the game! The roleplaying! I definately see the appeal of playing a wandering minstrel, and everything else the bard stands for and can be adapted to be! It's just a wonderful, fun class. Okay, the fighter does more damage. He's a fighter. He does that. Okay the rogue has more skills. He's a rogue. He does that. The bard...the bard is fun. They have so much personality and flair, that they're just a great class. Amen, brother! je je je, dont get misunderstood, we are talking here about "numbers" (also there is tactics and how to win a numeric supperior oponent using this wide list of stuff) because the roleplaying part it is out of place, because if we remove the roleplaying, then we arent playing D&D, we are playing a wargame. ;)
meabolex 10-21-04, 01:38 PM	Oh, this is a relatively focused discussion among people with a lot of spare time on their hands (or are too lazy to do anything meaningful). This is certainly not a commentary on how to play D&D or how to build a bard or how to roleplay. It is a discussion of strategy and tactics. And, it serves as a counter to the "3.5 bard underpowered" myth. . . which is on topic for this often flame-y forum. And I think everyone here has been relatively well-behaved. Not too bad compared to some threads.
Vintar 10-21-04, 01:45 PM	Oh - and if I was to own an army of one low level class - definetly bards. 100 massed level 1 bards. All get +100 to hit and damage - take down anything! Boo Yah. edit: I feel really dumb having said this. Not enough sleep last night.
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 01:49 PM	I haven't read this whole topic, and I don't plan to. So someone's probably already said this. God I hope they have. But guys, it's not all about the numbers. It's about the game! The roleplaying! I definately see the appeal of playing a wandering minstrel, and everything else the bard stands for and can be adapted to be! It's just a wonderful, fun class. Okay, the fighter does more damage. He's a fighter. He does that. Okay the rogue has more skills. He's a rogue. He does that. The bard...the bard is fun. They have so much personality and flair, that they're just a great class. Ooh, ooh, watch out! If BlaineTog hears of this obviously elitist attitude, he will threaten to smite you and then inform you that you have somehow violated the CoC (which, in itself, is baiting, and against the CoC...) Not to say I don't agree: I most assuredly do!
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 01:50 PM	Oh - and if I was to own an army of one low level class - definetly bards. 100 massed level 1 bards. All get +100 to hit and damage - take down anything! Boo Yah. Um, I don't think it's supposed to stack that way...
meabolex 10-21-04, 02:26 PM	They're morale bonuses. Morale bonuses do not stack with each other; they overlap. Now, if you REALLY want to be crazy, you could have a thousand 15th level bards doing inspire heroics on one person. The saving throws wouldn't stack. . . but the dodge bonus will (: +4000 AC anyone?
Thermanshs 10-21-04, 02:28 PM	My chatrooms password hasn't been delivered via mail yet. So....IS ANYBODY OUT THERE WHO HAS A CHATROOM ACCOUNT THAT WILL NOT USE IT DURING THE DUEL? IF YES PLZ PM ME!!! IT WILL ONLY BE ONE USE!
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 04:14 PM	What is 10 - Arizona time in EST anyway? I need to set up my account.
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 04:20 PM	What is 10 - Arizona time in EST anyway? I need to set up my account. Arizona is Mountain, so it is a 2 hour time difference. that is, 12:00
Thermanshs 10-21-04, 05:07 PM	Just coordinate with GMT...I'm on the other half of the globe so these ESTs confuse me
Black Kitten 10-21-04, 05:27 PM	Now I must admid that I haven't read all on this topic yet (can't be arsed to read 10 pages worth of it, so I read 2). I want to thank the people who's post I read. Every time I come to read something about the bard, people tend to remind me how uberly powerful the class can be, regardless how bad they can come out in your average damage-absorbing party. You've opened my eyes! *continues muttering about his own stupidity*
Mirror, Mirror 10-21-04, 05:38 PM	You've opened my eyes! :D You are, of course, most welcome :D
Thermanshs 10-21-04, 05:44 PM	Also I'd further recommend reading Caoslayer's guide to the 3,5 bard. The link to it can be found at his signature
Snommelp 10-21-04, 05:58 PM	Just coordinate with GMT...I'm on the other half of the globe so these ESTs confuse me I think it might be better if we didn't all show up to watch the fight. I don't mean to insult anyone, but sometimes in live situations observers shout advice when the people involved don't want it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-21-04, 06:44 PM	It just occured to me that we didn't clear this time with Cato. If he's on EST like me, I doubt he keeps madness hero hours like yours truly. Prehaps we should ask what time is best from him since he is reffing for us.
BlaineTog 10-21-04, 07:27 PM	So you don't think that I can make 12 saves vs his suggestions?No, I don’t. I know it’s a Gambler’s Fallacy to say so, but its not statistically possible. If you need a 3 or higher to beat it, you will fail at least one, unless you roll well. I could take a psionic tarrasque spellfire as my character and most of you could find a way that Vaal's bard could beat it in combat, it's easy to sit there and dig through the source books and shoot out the bull. We will see after this duel is over.Except this fight has been restricted to core only. I am still telling you that this is a contest of magic items, because otherwise Vaal has no chance.All high level combat is a contest of magic items. They are an integral part of the game. Take them out and you change the whole dynamic of all the classes. I hope you don't really believe this... 3rd level rogue (14hp, AC 16) vs 3rd level bard (14hp, AC 15) = dead bard3rd level? Horrible time for 2 PCs to be fighting each other. Whisper Gnome Rogue vs Any Race Bard 1st round - Rogue will probably go first since he has a higher DEX sneak attack with TWF (1d6+1d6/1d6+1d6) = 12pts + Silencing Strike Bard - attacks 1d8 = 6ptsA) That uses several things from splatbooks for the Rogue but nothing for the Bard. B) Why do you assume the rogue hits both times? I’m willing to bet that the TWF Rogue has about a +4-+5 attack bonus at 3rd level. D) Why would the bard be so silly as to attack when he has so few HP remaining? [u]2nd round - Rogue attacks - 1d6 + 1d6 = 5 pts[/i]Actuallly, that’s 7 points of damage. Which he probably wouldn’t get because he’d miss at least once. 1st round - Bard - starts singing to get bonusNo. The Bard casts Blur or something. Or Fascinates the Rogue. Rogue moves in and feintsNo. The Bard has a better chance of winning because he’d be a fool not to max out Sense Motive. 2nd round - Bard attacks (7pts)Of course not. He casts Tasha’s Hideous Laughter. And why does the Rogue get to TWF but the bard doesn’t get to? Elven 5th level fighter/7th level Order of the Bow InitiateUsing splatbook material, I see. Max bard hit points at 12 without CON = 72, Average with +2 CON = 79What kind of Bard only has a 14 Con at 12th level?!?! That’s just insane. The lowest I can reasonably see is 18 (12 Initial, +6 amulet). Um... even maximized... that's 32+12 = 48 points... slightly more than half damage. At that point... he IS dead... because another 81 points is coming next round and he has used his standard action to heal himself.The smart bard would go Invisible. Or Dimension Door away. Then heal. Then track you down. Of he could just send a Hold Person your way. Or Tasha’s. Or any of a number of things. But guys, it's not all about the numbers. It's about the game! The roleplaying!For you. (For me too, but that’s besides the point). Ooh, ooh, watch out! If BlaineTog hears of this obviously elitist attitude, he will threaten to smite youHis tone isn’t negative, unlike others. Hence the lighter reprimand. :D PS: Thank you for spelling my SN correctly. So few do these days… its not even hard to spell...
The Grinning Pint 10-21-04, 07:54 PM	Advantage - Bard. reminds me of tennis Curse you endless deuces!
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-04, 12:13 AM	No word from Yade or Wizo_Cato ... Are we not doing this tonight? Tomorrow will be cool for me too, but I'm off on a gaming weekend after that.
The_EvilDungeon_Master 10-22-04, 12:18 AM	If you've ever heard of the Bard's Coup De Grace, you'll know why Bards are just plain awesome.
BlaineTog 10-22-04, 12:40 AM	Tomorrow will be cool for me too, but I'm off on a gaming weekend after that.Gaming weekend? Oh you lucky lucky bastard. Kill an orc for me. :D
CaoSlayer 10-22-04, 03:47 AM	Also I'd further recommend reading Caoslayer's guide to the 3,5 bard. The link to it can be found at his signature I swear that I have to update that stuff one of these days... I was thinking in an apendix about synergies with other class mates... like the most famous *bard casts impr. inv. in the rogue*
boytbpc 10-22-04, 05:27 AM	What happened in the battle? I can't take the suspense anymore! Somebody hurry up so I can get on with my life! boytbpc
Zelphi 10-22-04, 05:31 AM	Am I the only one who things its entirely moronic if someone claims x class is pants because he can beat it with a build specifically designed to combat that class? A Deaf Warrior could do it! Yeah but you've now got a complete smacktard of a warrior in the party. A Paragon Mindflayer Slayer Of the Occult Blackguard could do it! Yeah they can do lots of other things too, so bloody what? Anyone can kill a stupid bard! Yeah, and anyone can kill a stupid member of any class, god forbid you go up against an intelligent one. With splat books I can kill a core bard easy? But can you kill a none core one? Seriously, is their a poll for stupidist topic ever? Can this one win by default? Yade - Bards are good because they do lots of things in one package! That's about it.
Thorak 10-22-04, 07:25 AM	Am I the only one who things its entirely moronic if someone claims x class is pants because he can beat it with a build specifically designed to combat that class? A Deaf Warrior could do it! Yeah but you've now got a complete smacktard of a warrior in the party. A Paragon Mindflayer Slayer Of the Occult Blackguard could do it! Yeah they can do lots of other things too, so bloody what? Anyone can kill a stupid bard! Yeah, and anyone can kill a stupid member of any class, god forbid you go up against an intelligent one. With splat books I can kill a core bard easy? But can you kill a none core one? Seriously, is their a poll for stupidist topic ever? Can this one win by default? Yade - Bards are good because they do lots of things in one package! That's about it. We all know this. We're all just watching eagerly (at least I am, and while this is my first post on this thread I've been lurking and watching in glee) to see if someone who talks the talk can actually walk the walk. Whether that be Yade and the "bards are teh suck!" comments, or Vaal and the "bards are teh roxxorz!" ones. I'm rooting for Vaal, but I like underdogs. And I'm profoundly sorry for using l33t sp34k. I feel dirty.
CaoSlayer 10-22-04, 07:38 AM	Seriously, is their a poll for stupidist topic ever? Can this one win by default? ufff, with that topic "convice me that fighters are weak" I dont think so :rolleyes:
RaspK FOG 10-22-04, 08:02 AM	Well, I run a CORE bard in a campaign and people still remember some of my combos! :D And they were all viable... Seriously, though, the bard is one of those classes that so many people like taking a bashing at. For no reason other than "not liking those sissy-things fighting round and round singing those silly songs of theirs!" nonsense. The only time I got pretty riled up by such a person was when he started shouting at the top of his voice: "Bards such rooster!" (I think you can get what he meant), and "Bards love taking my axe up the donkey!" in the middle of the street! :mad: In any case, rant happily on about how much bards are not good: it's your opinion, throw it away the way you like it... ;)
Zelphi 10-22-04, 08:09 AM	That topics not dumb, if anything it showed that Fighter issues aren't real. You don't like it because you don't agree, but at no point can you ever have a valid complaint. This one is just some inability to comprehend that a class actually does good in some ways and benefits a party. That other topic on Wizard skills is just as absurd, people go on about roleplaying but for some reason can't roleplay a Wizard who only knows about magic?
markhaus 10-22-04, 09:01 AM	That topics not dumb, if anything it showed that Fighter issues aren't real. You don't like it because you don't agree, but at no point can you ever have a valid complaint. Nice closeminded post. "at no point can he ever have a valid complaint." just a little absolute dont you think? That other topic on Wizard skills is just as absurd, people go on about roleplaying but for some reason can't roleplay a Wizard who only knows about magic? Once again, if you dont like these posts, dont read them. You dont need to insult people for wanting to roleplay a character rather then a class.
Zelphi 10-22-04, 09:17 AM	Alright, there are no valid complaints that directly relate to a Fighter because there is no singular form they take. Nothing ever stops them from being good because they can be good, therefore - Fighters aren't actually bad - just used incorrectly. But I only ever need to stand there and take damage! So bloody what? Wizards get plenty of skill points, and have very little to put them in. They have little need for other skills within that class and if you want to play a more rounded and worldly Wizard you can simply multiclass - its a non issue but for some reason some people can't get their head round the idea of investing cross class or have this bizzare impression that Wizards should be able to do so much more than they already can. Oh why can't Wizards ride a horse like the Fighter or Paladin can? Because they're Wizards you idiot. Bards are somehow rubbish because they never beat someone in a field, but somehow the ability to function on multiple fields is a complete non-ability. You now have this person who cannot comprehend the use of such a class and insists their a futile waste of time, dispite the fact that they aren't because they have useful abilities beyond others. Bards can't cast Wish! But they can cast healing spells and Fighter better and have better skill access.
markhaus 10-22-04, 09:26 AM	By the way, i agree that wizards and bards are fine the way they are: with that being said, multiple arguments from different people do not necassarily mean that all their arguments are faulty. It might just mean that they do not have a problem w/ certain aspects b/c of their rping ways, or that they agree w/ other arguments and are merely adding their own to the mix. A large number of complaints from the gaming populace means the matter should be investigated further. Many of these "Wizards/bards/sorcerors/fighters need boost" threads should be a valuble asset to the people that make the game. i am dissuading people from arguing against the proposed problems, but i am suggesting that people not call all arguments false.
Zelphi 10-22-04, 10:23 AM	Or maybe they need educating from those who have no issues. "I need help with a Bard" would be better than automatically deciding they're rubbish. "Am I missing something with the Bard" would give you a hoarde of advice and avoid stupid contests of character. All of these would help round out peoples play and help expose other issues, like the Cleric being able to use some overpowered CD book, but the Bard being stuffed because the right book aint out yet. If after "I'm playing a Bard and having trouble competeing" there was nothing but negativity and it was perhaps even true, then the designers might want to re-think they're thoughts on the Bard and give it a helping hand, but I don't think that's an absolute.
Mirror, Mirror 10-22-04, 11:26 AM	His tone isn’t negative, unlike others. Hence the lighter reprimand. :D PS: Thank you for spelling my SN correctly. So few do these days… its not even hard to spell… And thank YOU for taking it as the playful joke it was ment to be :D And, I admit, I had to go look it up :embarrass
CaoSlayer 10-22-04, 12:05 PM	Bards are somehow rubbish because they never beat someone in a field, but somehow the ability to function on multiple fields is a complete non-ability. You now have this person who cannot comprehend the use of such a class and insists their a futile waste of time, dispite the fact that they aren't because they have useful abilities beyond others. Bards can't cast Wish! But they can cast healing spells and Fighter better and have better skill access. and you havent take still the point of this topic, they can beat someone in the field... and more than someone it is almost everyone, because they can control how the fight it is going to be played, if the enemy plays to keep away and cast spells, the bard can just sit there and prepare a counter spell while the rest of the party melee him... if the enemy goes melee, the bard can try from grease the floor if is using heavy armor to disarm him with a whip or haste the allies so the wizard of the party can keep a good distance. And if is alone, never ever forget the defensives spells that almost every bard takes (mirror imagen-alter self-blink-improved inv.) and that make them a very target to kill. it is very strange seeing a bard dealing huge damage, but also can be very rare seeing them taking huge damage, so they tend to outmatch the enemy because there is not a single class´s weak point that a bard cant exploit in this favour; a bard casts in the fighter and fights in the caster. (And bards can cast wish or ever miracle with UMD unlike anyother else than a mage or cleric or a rogue.) of course, they are not perfect... but just try to improve anything of the class (skills,bab,hd,spellcasting,songs) and you will get an obviously way overpowered class. *pulls out a sign saying: "nerf the bard"*
Mirror, Mirror 10-22-04, 12:19 PM	*pulls out a sign saying: "nerf the bard"* :rofl: Nerf the Druid first! And the Cleric domain abilities! Then we'll get to the Bard...
meabolex 10-22-04, 12:57 PM	Nerf the Druid first! And the Cleric domain abilities! Then we'll get to the Bard... Just play with the spontaneous casting rules for divine casters in the Unearthed Arcana and you'll never complain about the druid or cleric again (: Now polymorph. . . :rant:
boytbpc 10-22-04, 01:18 PM	Hurry up, I"m going crazy! :turkey: Geez, this is worse than a title:turkey: boxing match on pay per view. Five hours of prep talk for a thirty second first round knock out. :turkey:HURRY :turkey: before I track you both down and beat you with my shoe for stalling! Boytbpc :turkey: P.S. Just kidding about the shoe thing (I'm afraid of the wraith of a moderator and homeland security.)
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-04, 03:53 PM	Hey, I've heard nothing from anyone. So... kittens.
Yade 10-22-04, 04:48 PM	I finished up last night at around 11:30 and got home well after midnight. Tonight I will be performing and going out afterwards, the next time I am avalible is Saturday evening. Catabolepas has not committed to the time or venue yet. Ill be back on when I have time.
BlaineTog 10-22-04, 05:08 PM	HURRY :turkey: before I track you both down and beat you with my shoe for stalling!That is so creepy. I have a teacher who says this all the time. 0_o
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-04, 05:15 PM	I won't be back til at least late Sunday night. Sorry, folks but looks like there will be a delay in the festivities.
Urzza 10-22-04, 06:29 PM	Who here thinks vaal took leadership? ;)
Snommelp 10-22-04, 08:14 PM	Who here thinks vaal took leadership? ;) I don't, because the rules of the game were 1 on 1, IIRC, and that would put Vaal at an extreme disadvantage.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-22-04, 08:48 PM	I promised I wouldn't so I didn't.
boytbpc 10-23-04, 01:34 AM	That is so creepy. I have a teacher who says this all the time. 0_o Even creepier, I am a teacher. Boytbpc
WizO_Catoblepas 10-23-04, 01:42 AM	Ok, as long as the duel takes place, I'm going to have a thread stickied to the top of the board. I'm going to leave it on this board since I think that the point is to provide insight to the merits of one class or another an will provide insight in the future for this thread. I'm leaning against trying to get us together at one place at one time. Next week is busy for me, and one of the combatants isn't good for this weekend. Thus, what I'm going to do is just conduct this via PMs, asking the players of what their actions are and updating the stickied thread per round. Besides, this is a board. Right now we're just waiting for one of the conbatants to put together their spell list. The combatant that is opposite of the bard is a cleric. (That's fair to announce since the other knows that they're conbating a bard ...) Best of luck to both sides.
Snommelp 10-23-04, 02:25 AM	A cleric? This should prove interesting. High wisdom and a high Will modifier to (hopefully) negate any chance of fascination, and also divine spells that can be changed into healing spells if he needs them. If I were a betting man, I'd still put my money on the bard, but I'd be putting less money on him now.
baerdith 10-23-04, 05:11 AM	*pulls out a sign saying: "nerf the bard"* :OMG! EEEK! DON't you dare! :looloo:
Zelphi 10-23-04, 05:49 AM	and you havent take still the point of this topic, they can beat someone in the field... and more than someone it is almost everyone, because they can control how the fight it is going to be played, if the enemy plays to keep away and cast spells, the bard can just sit there and prepare a counter spell while the rest of the party melee him... if the enemy goes melee, the bard can try from grease the floor if is using heavy armor to disarm him with a whip or haste the allies so the wizard of the party can keep a good distance. And if is alone, never ever forget the defensives spells that almost every bard takes (mirror imagen-alter self-blink-improved inv.) and that make them a very target to kill. it is very strange seeing a bard dealing huge damage, but also can be very rare seeing them taking huge damage, so they tend to outmatch the enemy because there is not a single class´s weak point that a bard cant exploit in this favour; a bard casts in the fighter and fights in the caster. No I got that, that's actually what i've been saying for a while, you direct their abilities into one whole and oppose them with your combined force, rather than going for a straight match. You don't out nuke the Wizard (or Sorc) and you can't out Heal the Cleric and you probably won't out Fight a Fighter, but you do combine your abilities. Oh and deffinately refine Polymorph before you do anything else.
Yade 10-24-04, 02:18 AM	If he did not cheat and buy items that he was not supposed to I should kill him in the first or second round. Unfortunately I cannot work on the boards or this tournament until monday when I am back. I will finish my spell list on monday.
BlaineTog 10-24-04, 02:48 AM	If he did not cheat and buy items that he was not supposed to I should kill him in the first or second round.Don't be so sure. Invisiblity + Movement in the first round followed by Scult Sound in the Second and UMDing Fly in the third virtually gaurentee you won't be able to find him. Since he's a bard, he'll almost certainly win Initiative.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-24-04, 03:01 AM	The consequences of this match, especially if it results in Yade's disfavor, will be extremely interesting. I can only imagine what Yade would do if he/she lost the match. To a "prancing fool," no less.
boytbpc 10-24-04, 08:11 AM	but there appears to be no walking of the walk. Hurry boys, this is getting old quick. Boytbpc
angryman 10-24-04, 02:05 PM	OK, I'll finish this quick. Vaal said I could use his character. THE FIGHT BEGINS... Bard guy, you see a dwarf in full plate. He polymorphs into a colossal elder red wyrm (as a free action using quicken spell-like ability), and breathes on you. The DC is 41. You fail. You take 25d6 fire damage. Before you die, you see the dragon is wearing a name badge that says, "Hi, my name is Frank." You know that's not true. You die.
BlaineTog 10-24-04, 02:08 PM	You die.Technically speaking, he lives if his Con is 18 or above (and it most probably is, seeing as Vaal can easily afford a +6 con booster and a less than 12 initial Con is just silly).
CaoSlayer 10-24-04, 02:24 PM	ummm? A cleric can shapechange into a wyrm as a spell-like ability? a druid wearing a full plate armorl? as a level 12 character?
BlaineTog 10-24-04, 02:29 PM	ummm? A cleric can shapechange into a wyrm as a spell-like ability? a druid wearing a full plate armorl? as a level 12 character?Clearly, Yade is playing a colossal elder red wyrm. Duh. :rolleyes: ;)
CaoSlayer 10-24-04, 02:32 PM	aaaaah, then the bard can try to bluff him with glibness and make him believe that it is a mouse ;)
Yade 10-24-04, 04:34 PM	All along I have contended that the bard is essentially a support character, and not a necessary one at that. Vaal will have no chance of using his music on me unless I have a really unlucky saving throw vs fascinate, then he will only be able to stand there and fascinate me because there is no chance that I can fail to his suggestion. That being said Vaal will resort to doing things that are not unique to the bard class and will basically represent a poor version of another class. If he lives past round one. Invisibility does nothing for him that true seeing cannot solve. He will get no save vs my plan and unless he pumped his CON up and has more than 120 HP he will not live very long.
Snommelp 10-24-04, 04:52 PM	Regardless of what Vaal does, it can hardly be said that he is doing something that is not unique to the bard class, because, as I have said before, he will likely enhance himself with his bardic "music" no matter what he does, thus making his strategy unique to the bard. It is also very possible that Vaal will do things that are normally only done by multiclassing, which would again be a unique advantage of being a bard.
Thorak 10-24-04, 05:08 PM	All along I have contended that the bard is essentially a support character, and not a necessary one at that. Vaal will have no chance of using his music on me unless I have a really unlucky saving throw vs fascinate, then he will only be able to stand there and fascinate me because there is no chance that I can fail to his suggestion. That being said Vaal will resort to doing things that are not unique to the bard class and will basically represent a poor version of another class. If he lives past round one. Invisibility does nothing for him that true seeing cannot solve. He will get no save vs my plan and unless he pumped his CON up and has more than 120 HP he will not live very long. Even if Vaal does have to resort to several different things not unique to the bard class, the fact that he can resort to multiple different options is unique to the bard class. No other core PC class combines a good skills and skillset with decent casting and combat ability, with a spell set that allows for great variety. Which is one of the benefits of the bard; they are a jack-of-all-trades, yet master of none. If you'd rather have a half-power cleric/sorceror/thief/warrior than a full-powered version of any one, then the Bard's a great option. Not that 4 halves make more than a whole, in this case. But it's something to be considered. Also; you seem to have dedicated your character to maxxing out your Will save, since you seem quite confident you can crush Vaal's theoretically huge Fascinate DC. I, and I'm sure Vaal, will notice that you've both taken a class, Cleric, that has a poor Reflex save, and have heavy armour on, which carries a hefty armour check penalty. And you've likely got a low Dex, because you wouldn't give yourself a high one when you need the values elsewhere and have heavy armour for AC. This means I'd start considering things like Grease, if I were in Vaal's position. Nothing sillier than watching your titan of physical and mental will flop all over himself because he's a clumsy oaf. Also, I'll note that True Seeing has a 250gp component cost; I assume you made sure you included that in your 88k? And it only has a 120' sight range; if Vaal stays outside that (and, invisible and with a higher movement than yours, especially with things like Expeditious Retreat, she can), True Seeing won't help you at all. And you both are starting out further apart than that. Not that I'm saying you're dead in the water. It'll be an interesting fight. I just don't think it's nearly as one-sided as you claim it is.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-24-04, 05:31 PM	I'm not back, I'm on a borrowed computer right now, but I just have to say: The reports of my death are highly exagerated. Accusations of being unbardlike is hardly believable. A moderate fighter/moderate caster with high skills and a penchant for magic item use has very little outside of his 'can't do that' list besides maybe unarmed strikes. I've been very quiet as to what I intend to do, because that's sort of the point of tactics: Your opponent doesn't know what you're capable of. Also, I find the implication that somehow I might be taking a round 1 Harm to be a bit confusing. That's got to be one magic dwarf to cross 120ft, eat and AoO, and still make a touch attack. There's been no time to prep, so I'm not really worried about it.
Cross Hatch 10-24-04, 05:37 PM	This is starting to look like one of those Japanese movie fights where the build up takes forever compared to the actual fight itself. Can you guys please redirect your energy from boasting about how powerful and unbeatable you are (looks at Yade) and start directing it to getting this thing on the road?
Yade 10-24-04, 05:40 PM	I'm a cleric, my primary ability is wisdom hence a high will save. This character that I have submitted is not even designed for this duel, he is designed for a tournament that I put my players through. The character is designed to kill spell casters and archers. If I do not kill Vaal in the first round ir 2 he will run off or close in to attack me. If he stays far away then he will have no chance of hurting me, if he closes in we'll see. I'm not worried. I am curious how you bard fanatics will respond when this is over. I imagine some crude comments and rebuttals will occur. We'll see.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-24-04, 05:43 PM	If I do not kill Vaal in the first round ir 2 he will run off or close in to attack me. If he stays far away then he will have no chance of hurting me, if he closes in we'll see. I'm not worried. Those aren't the only two options.
Cross Hatch 10-24-04, 05:52 PM	I'm a cleric, my primary ability is wisdom hence a high will save. This character that I have submitted is not even designed for this duel, he is designed for a tournament that I put my players through. The character is designed to kill spell casters and archers. If I do not kill Vaal in the first round ir 2 he will run off or close in to attack me. If he stays far away then he will have no chance of hurting me, if he closes in we'll see. I'm not worried. I am curious how you bard fanatics will respond when this is over. I imagine some crude comments and rebuttals will occur. We'll see. Whoever the winner is, it won't really prove anything. It will, however, provide insight on effective tactics which can be used by the classes.
angryman 10-24-04, 10:50 PM	Clearly, Yade is playing a colossal elder red wyrm. Duh. Yade, your boasting amuses me. I personally think this fight makes no difference. If you cleric wins, and I pull another character out to defeat him, with this "prove" the uselessness of the cleric? Ooh! I know! I'll use my Dwarven Elemental Savant! hohoho! He's sooooo kewl. Take THAT ref save. zapzapzap! Weeeee! I'm flying mom! They all love me! zapzapzap! Should be great, anyway. Huzzah for me and my bearded lunatic with a penchant for ozone! (ooh, really gotta stop posting at odd times)
Snommelp 10-24-04, 10:59 PM	I am curious how you bard fanatics will respond when this is over. I imagine some crude comments and rebuttals will occur. We'll see. Unfortunately, you're probably right about the crude comments. I, for one, will congratulate you, and then proceed to ignore your boasts about the ineffectiveness of the bard anyways.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-24-04, 11:32 PM	I am curious how you bard fanatics will respond when this is over. I imagine some crude comments and rebuttals will occur. We'll see. Bard "fanatic?" I don't think my ability to recognize the bard's strengths and weaknesses for what they are to be at any kind of "fanaticism" at any level. I've both experience and knowledge of the class's strengths and weaknesses to back up my claims as well. As such, I don't see many of your opinions regarding the class to be true or substantiated, regardless of the outcome of the coming battle. Aside from that, I'd be more interested in what you'd say or do if your character lost the battle, since you appear to claim that your victory is inevitable, whereas the "bard fantatics" claim that the two classes have about an equal chance of succeeding or basing the outcome upon the variables of the tactics used by you and Vaal in the actual combat. If the bard does win, I expect screams of either denial or taunts to draw Vaal into some kind of rematch.
fractal 10-24-04, 11:41 PM	<12 Consecutive Will Saves> No, I don?t. I know it?s a Gambler?s Fallacy to say so, but its not statistically possible. If you need a 3 or higher to beat it, you will fail at least one, unless you roll well. Yeah, but not all that well. (9/10)^12 ~ 2/7. There's a reasonable chance of that happening.
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 12:11 AM	All along I have contended that the bard is essentially a support character, and not a necessary one at that.Neither of these statements are anything but irrelevant. Other than the Cleric, no class is "necessary" for the game; clerics can do virtually anything, so technically speaking we don't need anyone else. Classes focus. The Bard focuses on many things. As for the support character comment. Bards do perform very well (perhaps optimally) when supporting their buds -- but they are very decent on their own as well. Vaal will have no chance of using his music on me unless I have a really unlucky saving throw vs fascinate,Fascinate's saving throw is absurd. You would fail. then he will only be able to stand there and fascinate me because there is no chance that I can fail to his suggestion.Suggestion has a very decent saving throw (16 + Cha Mod, so at least 21, I'd say). You will probably not fail to the first or the second, but you cannot likely pass 12 in a row. That being said Vaal will resort to doing things that are not unique to the bard class and will basically represent a poor version of another class.Apparently, you haven't been reading the discussion. Bards have contained in themselves a "weaker version" of every class, to a greater or lesser extent. Being able to do anything, albeit a bit weaker than someone more focused, is their thing. Little is unbardly. If he lives past round one.Which he will. 12th level isn't quite high enough to come down to the first round (at least, not with 120' between you). Invisibility does nothing for him that true seeing cannot solve.Yes it does. True Seeing has a limited range, there's already copius amounts of space between you two, and Vaal is undoubtably faster. He will get no save vs my plan and unless he pumped his CON up and has more than 120 HP he will not live very long.So Harm, is it? Harm can't kill. And you still have to catch him. I'm a cleric, my primary ability is wisdom hence a high will save.Not high enough. Fascinate is really quite absurdly high. Off the top of my head, I can forsee (easily) a DC of at least 30 (before sinking feats or items into it). This character that I have submitted is not even designed for this duel, he is designed for a tournament that I put my players through. The character is designed to kill spell casters and archers.What a coincidence. I am curious how you bard fanatics will respond when this is over.You do realize that the outcome has no chance of helping either position, right? I imagine some crude comments and rebuttals will occur.Crude comments from you and rebuttles from us. ;) C'mon. You have to admit that you left yourself wide open there.
Yade 10-25-04, 01:11 AM	I can always depend on Blaine for some banal breakdown of what I have to say. 21 save means I don't have to roll to succeed, he is going to have to do alot better than that. Assuming that I can even understand what he is trying to say. I will not be harming him.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-04, 01:34 AM	If we're using 3.5, you do have to roll, because a natty 1 fails automatically.
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 01:35 AM	I can always depend on Blaine for some banal breakdown of what I have to say.I'd only be able to break it down differently if you gave me something different. Sadly, each of your posts says the same things. [i]21 save means I don't have to roll to succeed, he is going to have to do alot better than that."21 save"? I assume you mean you have +21 to your will save. Edit: As Vaal said, you still have to roll. Ya see, that means that you still have a 45% chance of failure if (and only if) Vaal has only put in skill ranks and a 20 Cha (neither of which is at all unlikelly). If he actually tried to get a high DC by bumps his Cha higher than that (which is entierly possible, if not probable. 22 Cha is fairly easy to get), uses a masterwork instrument, and a blows a feat or two on up-ing Perform, his save DC could well be upwards of 38 (giving you a mere 20% chance of success). As for the Suggestion DC. You still have to make 12 of them, which means you have something like a 60% chance of failure (statistics, like 1-vs-1 combat for a bard, is not my forte). Which means overall success is a fluke. :D Of course, he has far more options than Fascinate + Suggestion. 21 is a very high Will save, far more than that of most characters (especially since most characters arn't custom built to screw over bards, which this build clearly is).
Yade 10-25-04, 01:46 AM	As for the Suggestion DC. You still have to make 12 of them, which means you have something like a 60% chance of failure (statistics, like 1-vs-1 combat for a bard, is not my forte). Which means overall success is a fluke. :D Of course, he has far more options than Fascinate + Suggestion. 21 is a very high Will save, far more than that of most characters (especially since most characters arn't custom built to screw over bards, which this build clearly is). Blaine your math needs some work, 12 saves vs suggestion where a 1 is needed to fail means that I have a 5% chance of failing my save. Each roll is indepent of the previous one. If his CHA was 30 i might have to roll a 2 to save. This bard is going to have to be more creative. I have had no reason to lie on this board, this character was designed to beat spellcasters. Vaal is going to be a scroll monkey or something like that because there is no way for him to beat me with music. Designing a character to defeat a bard is redundant, the only consideration was that this character had a good will save.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-25-04, 01:51 AM	Ya see, that means that you still have a 45% chance of failure if (and only if) Vaal has only put in skill ranks and a 20 Cha (neither of which is at all unlikelly). If he actually tried to get a high DC by bumps his Cha higher than that (which is entierly possible, if not probable. 22 Cha is fairly easy to get), uses a masterwork instrument, and a blows a feat or two on up-ing Perform, his save DC could well be upwards of 38 (giving you a mere 20% chance of success). Remember, though, the DC for facinate is equal to the bard's perform check -- not the perform skill modifier. Which means that Vaal's perform DC could be anywhere from DC 21 (15 ranks +5 charisma + a result of "1" on a d20 roll) to DC 51 (15 ranks +2 MW Instrament +3 Skill Focus +8 Charisma +3 Circlet of Persuasion + a result of "20" on a d20 roll.) It might even be able to go higher. To constrast, DC 30, according to the description of "Perform" in a prosperous city, a bard can earn up to 3d6 gp per day and can draw the attention of distant potential patrons or even extraplanar beings.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-25-04, 02:00 AM	Blaine your math needs some work, 12 saves vs suggestion where a 1 is needed to fail means that I have a 5% chance of failing my save. Each roll is indepent of the previous one. If his CHA was 30 i might have to roll a 2 to save. This bard is going to have to be more creative. that's still a one you have to not roll 12 times. Chances are better that you would roll a one once during those twelve rounds than not. I have had no reason to lie on this board, this character was designed to beat spellcasters. Vaal is going to be a scroll monkey or something like that because there is no way for him to beat me with music. Designing a character to defeat a bard is redundant, the only consideration was that this character had a good will save. Of course, the bard has plenty of abilities in order to recourse, should bardic music fail. Again, your victory is not assured.
Yade 10-25-04, 02:02 AM	that's still a one you have to not roll 12 times. Chances are better that you would roll a one once during those twelve rounds than not. No, in fact the chances of a 1 coming up on a d20 remain 5% regardless of how many times you roll it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-04, 02:08 AM	Vaal is going to be a scroll monkey or something like that because there is no way for him to beat me with music. Designing a character to defeat a bard is redundant, the only consideration was that this character had a good will save. You have no idea what I intend to do and I'd appreciate if you'd stop making derrogatory remarks reguarding it. All this 'not like a bard' talk is a smoke screen. Its not going to goad me into changing tactics to appease you. I have a plan and you obivously have a plan, so lets just wait for Wizo Cato to approve your spell list so we can begin this. Posturing is going to get neither of us anywhere and either of us coming in and specualting on the duel is tipping our hands at best, subversion as best. I could have come on and dropped 'hints' about what I was going to do to throw you off too, but I didn't find it sporting. The Art of War states that you should never believe information your enemy gives freely.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 02:12 AM	Yade, your math skills need work as well. The more often you roll a die, the more likely it is that you will roll at least one 1, and you only need to roll one to fail. The actual odds, IIRC, are something like (20!-1)/19 but I can't remember the formula off the top off my head, and I don't have my math books with me.
Yade 10-25-04, 02:15 AM	Yade, your math skills need work as well. The more often you roll a die, the more likely it is that you will roll at least one 1, and you only need to roll one to fail. The actual odds, IIRC, are something like (20!-1)/19 but I can't remember the formula off the top off my head, and I don't have my math books with me. ROFL, everytime you roll the dice there is a 5% chance of a one coming up. Now I assume that you mean that if I roll a thousand times that it is likely that i will eventually roll a one. While that is true, 12 rolls of a D20 with a 5% chance of a 1 coming up, is not a good gamble. Vaal, quoting Sun Tzu, fun.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 02:21 AM	ROFL, everytime you roll the dice there is a 5% chance of a one coming up. Now I assume that you mean that if I roll a thousand times that it is likely that i will eventually roll a one. While that is true, 12 rolls of a D20 with a 5% chance of a 1 coming up, is not a good gamble. Like I said, the formula may be slightly flawed since my math books are at home and not here, but I do pride myself in knowing math, and you are struggling under a misconception. While it is true that the dice are all rolling independently, you do not have a 5% chance simply because that is 1/20. You have to follow the nCr formula, which I actually would like to change from my prior post to (20!-1)/12 notice the 12 substituted for the 19. That was what I think my mistake was, I substituted the number of trials with something else.
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 02:22 AM	Blaine your math needs some work, 12 saves vs suggestion where a 1 is needed to fail means that I have a 5% chance of failing my save. Each roll is indepent of the previous one.True, but that doesn't mean that rolling more times doesn't make you more likely to roll a one in there. Roll a die 1000000000 times. You are far more likely to roll at least one 1 during that series than if you roll just one d20. Now, in both cases, 5% of your rolls will be 1st, but thats not what I'm talking about. And as far as I can tell, you have a 60% chance of rolling at least one 1 in 12d20, and thats all that matters.
Yade 10-25-04, 02:28 AM	True, but that doesn't mean that rolling more times doesn't make you more likely to roll a one in there. Roll a die 1000000000 times. You are far more likely to roll at least one 1 during that series than if you roll just one d20. Now, in both cases, 5% of your rolls will be 1st, but thats not what I'm talking about. And as far as I can tell, you have a 60% chance of rolling at least one 1 in 12d20, and thats all that matters. I can see what you are getting at, but 60% is grossly exaggerated. 12 rolls with 240 possible results. Each roll has a 5% chance of coming up a one, that percentage resets with every roll. In the end the chances of me rolling a 1 is unlikely.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 02:33 AM	Actually, strangely enough, I think the odds are actually close to a 6% chance... BlaineTog may have dropped a decimal somewhere.
Yade 10-25-04, 02:36 AM	Actually, strangely enough, I think the odds are actually close to a 6% chance... BlaineTog may have dropped a decimal somewhere. 6% sounds alot more accurate to me. Still not worth betting your life on. His fascinate DC might be insane, I wont deny that, but it still leaves him standing there doing nothing.
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 02:43 AM	I can see what you are getting at, but 60% is grossly exaggerated.It may be. I'll have to ask some of my math geek friends tomorrow. 12 rolls with 240 possible results.This assumes that each roll is connected. 1 roll = 20 = 20^1. 2 rolls = 20*20 = 20^2. 3 rolls = 20*20*20 = 20^2. 20 rolls = 20^20 = 1.049x10^26 possibilities. Each roll has a 5% chance of coming up a one, that percentage resets with every roll.Once again, you are not thinking about the rolls correctly. The question isn't "How many 1s will you roll?," in which case the answer is less than one. The question is "What is the chance that you will roll at least one 1?" It gets closer to 1 (100%) as the number of rolls gets close to 20. Because 20*0.05 = 1 = 100%. Therefore, 12*.05 = .6 = 60%. I think...
Snommelp 10-25-04, 02:46 AM	6% sounds alot more accurate to me. Still not worth betting your life on. His fascinate DC might be insane, I wont deny that, but it still leaves him standing there doing nothing. Of course, we're still assuming that his DC is low enough that only a 1 will fail. If his suggestion save DC is high enough, you could have potentially only a 6% chance of success (although this is purely theoretical).
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 02:54 AM	Actually, strangely enough, I think the odds are actually close to a 6% chance...6% doesn't make any sense. Rolling 1 d20 gives you a 5% chance. Rolling 11 more should give you more than +1%, otherwise you'de need to roll 1046 times before you have a 100% chance of rolling a 1.
Yade 10-25-04, 02:58 AM	Blaine, roll some D20s and you'll see.
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 03:14 AM	If you insist. 1st set of 12: two 1s. 2nd set of 12: zero 1s. 3rd set of 12: zero 1s. 4th set of 12: one 1. 5th set of 12: two 1s. 6th set of 12: one 1. 7th set of 12: one 1. 8th set of 12: one 1. 9th set of 12: one 1. 10th set of 12: zero 1s. 11th set of 12: one 1. 12th set of 12: one 1. Now, its entierly possible that these results are flukes (75% of the sets had at least one 1). However, the chances of it fluking this way with a mere 6% chance are miniscule.
fractal 10-25-04, 03:22 AM	Okay, I can't read any more of this. The chance of getting no 1's on 12 will saves = (19/20)^12 = .54. So, 54% of the time you'll make all of your saves, 46% of the time you'll fail one of them.
CaoSlayer 10-25-04, 05:33 AM	the exact formula it is this: that it is like a binomial (sp), there p it is the chances to make the save and q it is 1 - p, the chances to make the save. so the chances to make all the saves are 0.95^12 = *opens windows calculator* 0,57... EDIT: removing stuff, I readed that everything was about the sugestion save MORE EDIT: fractal was right, he he, althrought usually there are precision diferences . And also then there is the chance to fascinate again the guy that will gives another set of chances, or dont try it again and use the two last rounds for something else, 10 rounds will be a rounded 40% of sucess that it is just a 3% less than with two extra tries. ummm, with more tries ever, this will equal to a Poison distribution... (never throught that I would use my college´s studies for this stuff)
angryman 10-25-04, 05:54 AM	Yade, I dunno, I suck at maths. Roll 12 d20s, there's a decent chance you'll get a 1. IF your will save is good enough this is fine. If you need a 2 or *gasp* a 3, you're screwed as opposed to probably screwed. If you win, you get a prize, coolest man ever. Yay for you. :rolleyes: I could design a cleric to kill a bard too. Good for me. Do I get a prize?
Mirror, Mirror 10-25-04, 11:36 AM	People, let's stop baiting the combatants. There will be plenty of time for that after the match is over...
Yade 10-25-04, 11:58 AM	Blaine, in the majority of the instances in which you rolled a D20 12 times you got a 1 once. Although I think this is a bit high I will still accept it. That being said you made 12 rolls and came up with a 1 meaning that it is approximately an 8% chance that I will fail. So when the two of us postulated that 6% was about right, then we were close. Those of you that came up with 50+% are not using the correct formulas and do not understand probability. Even if you take Blaines rolls as a whole 11 ones out of 144 roles you still only get an 8% chance of a one showing up (.076). (I hope the viewing audience is smart enough to get a percentage out of this, and if you come up with 13% you are RONG) ((If you correct my spelling of that word then you are stooped as well)) :) I am home now, back from LA, and will have my character sheet in tonight.
Mirror, Mirror 10-25-04, 12:30 PM	Why are you all wrong with your probabilities? Because this is a sequence of probabilities, and we are calculating the change in probability and the chance of an instance occuring, we do the following: base chance is 5%. Next chance is 95% of 5% (since, if it occured the first time, the sequence ends) We calculate the change in probability and add it to the base to get the probability of a 1 coming up in 2 rolls. ~5.25% Rinse, repeat. Over 12 rolls, the chances rise to ~19%. Therefore, if a save only fails on a 1, there is a 19% chance that over 12 rolls he will get at least 1 one. The chance is low, but not insignificant. For those interested: 1-0.05 2-0.0525 3-0.057375 4-0.06450625 5-0.073780938 6-0.085091891 7-0.098337296 8-0.113420431 9-0.13024941 10-0.148736939 11-0.168800092 12-0.190360088
CaoSlayer 10-25-04, 12:45 PM	Why are you all wrong with your probabilities? Because this is a sequence of probabilities, and we are calculating the change in probability and the chance of an instance occuring, we do the following: base chance is 5%. Next chance is 95% of 5% (since, if it occured the first time, the sequence ends) We calculate the change in probability and add it to the base to get the probability of a 1 coming up in 2 rolls. ~5.25% Rinse, repeat. Over 12 rolls, the chances rise to ~19%. Therefore, if a save only fails on a 1, there is a 19% chance that over 12 rolls he will get at least 1 you are getting it wrong... they are aislated throws, so it can be considered a benorluigi(sp) experiment... with two rolls, the sucess chances are to sucess in the first and to fail in the second OR to sucess in the second and fail in the first OR sucess in both throws. having sucess as p and having fail as 1 -p = q then you have the total chances are p*q + q*p + q*q = 0,095 + 0,0025 being almost a 10% for three numbers would be p*p*q + p*q*p + ... +q*q*p that those numbers are in reality combinations of three elements, so the total chance it is (n k) [combinatory number] * p^k * q^(n-1) Check any stadistic book, I simply cant be wrong.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 01:39 PM	wow, who'd have thought there would be so many mathematicians here? :D anyways, if it really matters that much, I could talk to a math professor here... I'm pretty sure you use nCr or nPr, not Benorluigi, but it's been a while since I did this without a calculator
Mirror, Mirror 10-25-04, 01:48 PM	Are they really isolated throws? If he makes 1, dosen't that automatically end the sequence? Actually, I may be wrong. 0.95^12 makes a lot of sense. However, comparing charts, the rate at which the values approach 0 (or 100) makes more sense to be convex rather than concave... All that college math failing me... Should have studied instead of partied...
Thorak 10-25-04, 02:18 PM	Without getting mathematical (and herein springs the saying; "lies, damn lies, and statistics"), the question isn't the percent chance Yade would fail any one of his rolls, which is the 5% he keeps quoting. The question is whether he fails any one of 12 rolls. Which is highish. To enter a slightly mathematical argument (while trying to remain as much in normal English as possible, to avoid losing my point amidst indecipherable symbols); Lets consider 1,000 sets of rolls, statistically. We'll calculate how many 1s, on average, should be rolled on each roll, to ensure Yade rolls at least a single 1. Meaning multiple 1s aren't considered. The numbers listed at the end of each roll consideration is how many sets, out of the 1000, meet the requirement of having rolled a 1. The number of sets that fail, divided by 10, give you the percentile chance of overall failure, by rolling a 1 once. For the first roll, there's a 5% chance of failure. 50 sets have failed here. For the second roll, we only care about the 95% of cases where the first roll didn't roll a 1. So, 5% of the 950 remaining is another 47.5, so we'll say 48. A total of 98 sets have failed. 3rd roll: 902 * 5% = 45 4th: 857 * 5% = 43 5th: 814 * 5% = 41 6th: 773 * 5% = 39 7th: 734 * 5% = 37 8th: 697 * 5% = 35 9th: 662 * 5% = 33 10th: 629 * 5% = 31 11th: 598 * 5% = 30 12th: 568 * 5% = 28 So the total sets that failed, out of 1000, is 460. So, there's roughly (with a couple percent possible variance, because I was rounding the numbers off, though it should average out) a 46% chance of Yade failing, if he only fails on a 1. To reiterate; if you want to figure it out, you have to consider his chance of failing the first roll, and then his chance of failing each remaining roll, assuming he didn't fail any previous one. Which means you can use the above process for brute-force computation; it eliminates at each step those sets which have already failed, and only considers for each roll the chances of a thus-far unfailed set for failing. For instance, consider again just the first two rolls. For the first roll, he has a 5% chance of failing. Now, we need only consider those which pass, the remaining 95%. This is what Mirror Mirror was saying, but he flubbed the math. 5% of the remaining 95% is .0475, you're multiplying .95 times .05. And .0475 is 4.75%, which is what I quoted above as 47.5 out of 1000 cases. And so on for the rest of my numbers; the almost linear reduction of each by 2 is just a feature of the slightly diminishing returns netted by each subsequent roll, since the already-failed sets are no longer considered and thus we don't care about any future 1s on their path. If anything, look at blainetog's sets. He rolled well (or poorly, depending on your perspective), and his results aren't typical. But they're high. Making it much, much more likely, by orders of magnitude, that myself and blainetog are closer to the actual odds than those claiming less than 20%. I don't claim my number to be entirely accurate, but only because I was rounding off the numbers to a given number of sets, to avoid confusing the issue with too many decimal places. But it is fairly accurate, likely to within a couple percentage points. It's definitely closer to 50% than 5%, or even 20%. After quickly working out .95^12, I got 0.51344. Since that's the chance of success, the chance of failure is 1-that. So roughly 48.5%. Which is close enough to my rough numbers to make me smile.
ThoughtfulOwl 10-25-04, 02:25 PM	I'm not going to enter the "bard sucks" debate here, but the issue of probability is worth clarifying. Fractal gave the right formula half a page back: the chances are about 54% vs. 46%. One of the basic tenets of probability theory is that the joint probability of a combination of events - provided said events are independent of each other - is the product of the probabilities of the individual events. The probability of rolling 2~20 on a d20 is 19/20, or 0.95 The probability of rolling 2~20 on each roll 12 times (each roll being an indipendent variable) is 0.95 x 0.95 x ... x 0.95 = 0.95^12 or about the said result of 0.54; that's it. If you don't like that explanation, consider it this way: as soon as you roll 1, you fail; at the first roll, there are only two possible outcomes (with probabilities): rolling 2~20 (0.95) and rolling 1 (0.05). The second branch results in a failure, while the first one leads to the second roll: the second roll adds another 0.95/0.05 branching, the first route of which leading to the third roll. However, to reach the third roll in the first place, you must first traverse the first branches of both the previous rolls. Only 95% of the chances leads to the second roll and only 95% of these chances leads from there to the third roll. That's 0.95 x 0.95 right there; then there is the third roll, and the fourth, and so on... (EDIT: Thorak explained this approach much better while I was busy typing :P ) Incidentally, the overall chance of success plummets to the ground if the single roll fails on more than 1. If you fail on 1 and 2 and succeed only on 3+, the chance of never failing drops to 0.28 (0.90^12); if you need 4+, the chance is a measly 0.14 (0.80^12). If you need 11+ (a 50% chance on each roll), continued success has a probability of about 0.00024, less than 3 in 10000.
Mirror, Mirror 10-25-04, 05:16 PM	Indeed, I stand corrected. I did not count all the numbers properly (my Excel function was wrong). When I corrected the problem, 46% was the answer.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 05:59 PM	I thought 42 was the answer anyways, my excuse is that I had always done this kind of math on my calculator, so when I searched my memory for the formula my mind failed me. I shall no longer call myself a mathematician.
Mirror, Mirror 10-25-04, 06:08 PM	I thought 42 was the answer. :rofl: It is!
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 07:10 PM	We should probably get off this math tangent. But I just wanna say one last thing. My math geek friends have corroborated Thorak's number: 1 - (19/20)^12 = chance for failure (assuming you only fail on a 1). I suppose I have to accept it, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me on a more real level. Rolling a d20 20 times should give you one 1 (assuming exactly 5% of all rolls are a 1). Which means that the chance of rolling a 1 in a set of 20 is 100% (again, only assuming the statistics hold true in every example). But using 1 - (19/20)^x (x = # of rolls), you only have a 64% chance of success with 20 rolls. Hence the confusion.
Snommelp 10-25-04, 08:04 PM	Blaine, that's assuming that you can never roll the same number twice. That's why you're confused. Anyways, now that all the math's been cleared up I would say the odds have gone slightly (but only slightly) up in favor of the bard. I would say that right now the bard has about a 55% chance of winning, although this is without knowing anybody's strategy.
Thorak 10-25-04, 08:18 PM	We should probably get off this math tangent. But I just wanna say one last thing. My math geek friends have corroborated Thorak's number: 1 - (19/20)^12 = chance for failure (assuming you only fail on a 1). I suppose I have to accept it, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me on a more real level. Rolling a d20 20 times should give you one 1 (assuming exactly 5% of all rolls are a 1). Which means that the chance of rolling a 1 in a set of 20 is 100% (again, only assuming the statistics hold true in every example). But using 1 - (19/20)^x (x = # of rolls), you only have a 64% chance of success with 20 rolls. Hence the confusion. The confusion's only coming because of a misconception. The odds of getting a 1 in 20 rolls isn't 100%; statistically, it can never reach 100%, only approach it, and even then it takes a while. 20 rolls has a 66% chance (or thereabouts) to roll a 1. It's likely, but it's hardly a given.
fractal 10-26-04, 01:12 AM	But I just wanna say one last thing. My math geek friends have corroborated Thorak's number: 1 - (19/20)^12 = chance for failure (assuming you only fail on a 1). I can't resist pointing out that it was actually my number. ;) I suppose I have to accept it, but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me on a more real level. Rolling a d20 20 times should give you one 1 (assuming exactly 5% of all rolls are a 1). Which means that the chance of rolling a 1 in a set of 20 is 100% (again, only assuming the statistics hold true in every example). Here's the thing, BlaineTog. What you've figured out is that if you roll twenty d20's, you will average exactly one 1. However, that's just the average. Sometimes you'll get more than one, other times you won't get any. Some posters having suggesting using combinatorics, this would be good if you cared about exactly how many 1's you get. However, you don't care. All that matters is if you get no 1's, or at least one 1. Thus, if you rolled twelve d20's many times, your average number of 1's would be .6 for each set of twelve. Unfortunately, some of those 1's would come in a set where you'd already rolled a 1. Thus, in effect they wouldn't "count". It turns out that only 1-(19/20)^12= 46% of the sets will contain a 1, as already noted. Does that make more sense? To Yade: To succeed at all 12 saves, you must make your first Will save (19/20) and your second Will save (19/20) and your third Will save (19/20), etc. = (19/20)*(19/20)*(19/20)*... = (19/20)^12 = .54036008766... ~ 54% of the time.
Yade 10-26-04, 01:32 AM	To succeed at all 12 saves, you must make your first Will save (19/20) and your second Will save (19/20) and your third Will save (19/20), etc. = (19/20)*(19/20)*(19/20)*... = (19/20)^12 = .54036008766... ~ 54% of the time. Sorry no. Stick to whatever it is that you do. Your entire posts makes me laugh because you scientifically explained a bunch of garbage. The chances of rolling a 1 on a D20 is 5%, the more frequently you roll the more likely that one will come up but each roll is independant of the last. The Law of Probability states that a one will eventually come up, but your equation is ludicrous. I can't even believe you guys have devoted so much time to this. Fractal, roll some dice. You'll see (and then, no doubt, post that you rolled 50% ones indicating that I am wrong. But in reality if you roll 50% ones you have bigger issues than arguing with me.)
Snommelp 10-26-04, 01:47 AM	:rolleyes: If you're not willing to believe scientific proofs, then there's no use in arguing with you. It would be like trying to explain to Jack Chick that DnD isn't satanic: you just don't care about the factual evidence. I admitted my fault, but will you admit yours?
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-26-04, 01:53 AM	the more frequently you roll the more likely that one will come up and it is this that is important. but each roll is independant of the last. This is true, but irrelevant. You have to succeed this check, should Vaal decide to use this against you twelve times. You've a 5% chance to fail each time you roll, assuming you need a one to fail. The more times you have to make this roll, the greater chances that you'll roll a failing number. You only need to fail once. The Law of Probability states that a one will eventually come up... The "ludicrous equation" prooves exactly this. Fractal, roll some dice. You'll see (and then, no doubt, post that you rolled 50% ones indicating that I am wrong. But in reality if you roll 50% ones you have bigger issues than arguing with me.) Heh. Roll 12d20. Go ahead. See how many times a one comes up among those twelve. According to the law of probability (i.e. that "Ludicrous" equation,) your chances aren't a mere 5% for the entire set and it's the entire set of saves that count. Not the individual save itself.
AerynSun 10-26-04, 02:25 AM	*avoids the flame talk* If you use Gestalt rules, the bard gets pretty cool. You can make up for their weakness with another class and still keep their coolness.
fractal 10-26-04, 02:27 AM	Sorry no. Stick to whatever it is that you do. Your entire posts makes me laugh because you scientifically explained a bunch of garbage. The chances of rolling a 1 on a D20 is 5%, the more frequently you roll the more likely that one will come up but each roll is independant of the last. The Law of Probability states that a one will eventually come up, but your equation is ludicrous. I can't even believe you guys have devoted so much time to this. I just can't believe that I'm responding to you. However... Look at it like this. If you roll twelve d20's 10 times, that's 120 rolls. Do you at least agree that the average number of 1's is 120*(1/20) = six 1's? If not, I'm afraid I can't do anything for you. However, if you do, then think, you got six 1's in 10 sets of rolls. It would be a pretty high coincidence for all of those 1's to be in just one or two sets. Therefore, you're likely to miss a save in at least 3 or 4 of the sets. That's 30 or 40% of the time.
fractal 10-26-04, 02:36 AM	Sorry no. Stick to whatever it is that you do. Btw, what I "do" is tutor math. Thus, I actually am sticking to it when I attempt to explain probability to you. ;)
Cacevius 10-26-04, 02:40 AM	Yade: //Sorry no. Stick to whatever it is that you do. Your entire posts makes me laugh because you scientifically explained a bunch of garbage.// Yade, fractal is right. There appears to be no way to show that to you on an RPG mailing list, though - because education in basic probability theory is not something to do on mailing lists, but in school. I guess from your posts that you still go to school and have a math teacher you can ask about the subject. Do so. He will explain it to you in person: that is his job. Then come back. Until then, to avoid further embarassing yourself, let the subject rest. Have fun, Cacevius
Dravenous 10-26-04, 02:46 AM	We should probably get off this math tangent. The fact that I find this so funny is a sign that I've taken way too many math classes. Anyway, I agree with fractal's given equation for the odds. I am really wanting to see how this battle turns out now. Before this I had never actually considered a Bard a viable character on his own.
fractal 10-26-04, 02:49 AM	If you use Gestalt rules, the bard gets pretty cool. You can make up for their weakness with another class and still keep their coolness. I don't know how good Gestalt actually is for Bard. I mean, sure, any gestalt character will be powerful, but the Bard is medium at just about everything. That means that if you combine a Bard with a character who is good at X and bad at Y, you'll end up good at X and medium at Y. On the other hand, if you had combined the second character with someone bad at X and good at Y, you would have ended up good at X and good at Y. For example, Wizard+Bard has 3/4 BAB, Good Will and Ref, d6 HD, 6 SP. Wizard+Ranger has Full BAB, Good Will, Ref, and Fort, d8 HD, and 6 SP. The latter is (arguably) better, because Wizard and Ranger have class features that are "more different" than Wizard and Bard. Gestalt has payoffs for choosing classes that are fairly diverse. The Bard is kind of similar to everyone. Therefore, you'll often get less out of choosing the Bard than you would some other class.
Felonious Monk 10-26-04, 02:56 AM	The Law of Probability states that a one will eventually come up, but your equation is ludicrous. Don't think so. The likelihood of a one coming up remains 5% for each roll. I'm always amazed, browsing these boards, how many people who hate math play dice games. I play with a guy who believes that the law of independent trials (or whatever it is that it's called - that this die roll does not affect the result of the next one) means that one cannot determine the likelihood of any particular combination of multiple dice rolls mathematically. It seems that there is a breakdown between "eyeball" statistics and acceptance of hard math for a lot of people. My next character is going to be a bard... soon as my conjurer gets killed off. I don't think they are useless at all. Oh, and when this math tangent ends, can we go on a math secant?
AerynSun 10-26-04, 02:56 AM	I don't know how good Gestalt actually is for Bard. I mean, sure, any gestalt character will be powerful, but the Bard is medium at just about everything. That means that if you combine a Bard with a character who is good at X and bad at Y, you'll end up good at X and medium at Y. On the other hand, if you had combined the second character with someone bad at X and good at Y, you would have ended up good at X and good at Y. For example, Wizard+Bard has 3/4 BAB, Good Will and Ref, d6 HD, 6 SP. Wizard+Ranger has Full BAB, Good Will, Ref, and Fort, d8 HD, and 6 SP. The latter is (arguably) better, because Wizard and Ranger have class features that are "more different" than Wizard and Bard. Gestalt has payoffs for choosing classes that are fairly diverse. The Bard is kind of similar to everyone. Therefore, you'll often get less out of choosing the Bard than you would some other class. Oh, I wasn't meaning a bard would be a super duper Gestalt class, just that I think it would let you take more "good" abilities while retaining the fun ones of the bard class. Naturally there are still far better combos.
CaoSlayer 10-26-04, 04:25 AM	http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Jakob_Bernoulli and about the theme of discursion: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bernoulli_trial if you wants to learn about bernoulli (thanks to google to correct the name to the right one :D ) also includes the mencionated bernoulli trial. I got all my knowledge about stadistics from the book "Curso de probabilidad y estadisticas" by V. Quesada. Again, I never through about using college´s maths for this stuff. :D
CaoSlayer 10-26-04, 04:41 AM	Oh, I wasn't meaning a bard would be a super duper Gestalt class, just that I think it would let you take more "good" abilities while retaining the fun ones of the bard class. Naturally there are still far better combos. Yeah... you have taken two too alike classes, let´s try barbarian and bard (the famous bardarian) from a simple class bard you gain: you get d12 (double HP O_o), good fort, survival and intimidate skill, rage, fast movement (and since you are going to stick in light armor, there is not much penalti), good bab, uncanny dodge and more. the casting in armor it is very useful for casting/fighting gestalt (the mencionated wizard/ranger didnt taked into acount being unable to use armor without ASF)
Thorak 10-26-04, 08:54 AM	I can't resist pointing out that it was actually my number. ;) Freely and wholeheartedly supported; I brute-force calculated the odds, based on a theoretical sample of 1000 sets of 12 d20 rolls. I only quoted your earlier statement because it corresponded pretty much exactly with my results, implying that we're both correct since we arrived at the same results in two different ways. I recall your equation now, but it's been 6 years since I took my last math course, and I've been in an arts degree the last while. Though my last math course was advanced calculus, so I'm not coming from a basic high-school math standpoint either; I'm just rusty. So I couldn't recall if it was right off the top of my head, so I brute-forced it, since 12 rolls isn't too bad. But it was a lot more work than confirming 0.95^12 was. Yade; if two mathematical arguments that approach the results in two entirely different, but mathematically accurate, ways aren't going to convince you, nothing will. And I'm sure if you get Fascinated and fail one of your Suggestion saves, you'll claim it's a fluke. You'll be wrong, but I'm sure you'll claim so.
Yade 10-26-04, 10:10 AM	Compelling arguments can still be wrong. Besides it is a moot point. In spite of all that has been said defending bards on this board Vaal will not try and fascinate me. He is going to run off and go invisible and become a scroll monkey or something like that. The fight will be very cowardly and music is not going to have a part in it.
Rialto 10-26-04, 10:37 AM	Compelling arguments can still be wrong. Generally speaking yes. In this particular case however they are not. In spite of all that has been said defending bards on this board Vaal will not try and fascinate me. He is going to run off and go invisible and become a scroll monkey or something like that. The fight will be very cowardly and music is not going to have a part in it. We will just have to see about that, won't we? :) What exactly do you mean by cowardly? Outsmarting the enemy is intelligent, not a cowardly behaviour.
angryman 10-26-04, 10:45 AM	YADE...Compelling arguments can still be wrong. Well, true. But they tend not to be especially when the compelling part comes from raw data that you happen to disagree with. So between making yourself look like you're clueless with your bold assertations that Sorry no. Stick to whatever it is that you do. and making equally fallacious statements about compelling arguments being able to be wrong, (which is true, but misleading in your argument) as well as being boorish and antagonistic, all to "prove" that you're somehow "better" than a guy you've never met in an imaginary battle that has no point except to show that under certain hypothesised conditions, one class may be able to potentially defeat another.
Yade 10-26-04, 10:46 AM	The majority of my criticisms against the bard are related to them using their music. Vaal is defending a bard and will not use music. That is what I consider cowardly, taking a point and not sticking to it when it comes down to life or death. We'll see...
Snommelp 10-26-04, 11:59 AM	You know, Vaal could easily become an invisible scroll monkey and still use his music, thanks to things like sculpt sound. He'll be singing and casting, and you won't be able to hear him. Unless of course he does an entirely different strategy, which I do not doubt.
Thorak 10-26-04, 12:42 PM	Compelling arguments can still be wrong. Besides it is a moot point. In spite of all that has been said defending bards on this board Vaal will not try and fascinate me. He is going to run off and go invisible and become a scroll monkey or something like that. The fight will be very cowardly and music is not going to have a part in it. Yes, we might be wrong. You might make all your saves. It's even likely. There's just a 46% chance you'll fail at least 1, if you can only fail on a 1. We weren't (at least I wasn't) claiming you were doomed to failure, just pointing out that the point is nowhere near as moot as you and some others appeared to think. The majority of my criticisms against the bard are related to them using their music. Vaal is defending a bard and will not use music. That is what I consider cowardly, taking a point and not sticking to it when it comes down to life or death. I fail to see how Vaal deciding not to use a single class ability somehow means they're being "cowardly", or not playing a bard 'right' (which is what you're implying). That would be like me claiming that, if you're playing a Cleric which we know you are, you're not playing it "right" unless you try to use Turn Undead. Yes, it would be useless (I assume, anyway), but then, Vaal might see trying to Fascinate you as equally useless. So I don't see how not using the abilities you suspect won't work makes you 'cowardly'. Unless you mean to imply he's not going to stand toe-to-toe with you. Allow me to laugh. That's called tactics. You wouldn't expect a Sorceror or Wizard to fight that way either, because it's suicide. Even without considering Bardic Music, Vaal's got spells, tons of skills, UMD as a class skill, and who knows what kinds of tricks prepared. Music is hardly all a bard does; that's just one albeit important aspect.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-26-04, 01:00 PM	The majority of my criticisms against the bard are related to them using their music. Vaal is defending a bard and will not use music. That is what I consider cowardly, taking a point and not sticking to it when it comes down to life or death. We'll see... Oh blood and bloody ashes, man. PERFORM: ORATION Its bleeding music as far as the bard is concerned! Just because I'm not going to try to soldier in 60ft and eat whatever ranged spell you've got set up just to fascinate you, doesn't mean I'm not going to use my bardic music. It also doesn't mean I have to. I have UMD, so I can jack you with items. I have a rogue BaB, so I can face you in combat. I have spells so I can do one of a hundred things to you. That's the point -- you don't know what I'm going to do because the bard is so versitile (the opposite of useless). Any other class, you'd have a basic idea of what I was going to do. A wizard; you close on them and engage in melee, a fighter, you stay out of range and pepper him with spells. But I bard, you better kill with your first shot because you have NO idea what he's capable of. That is the lesson. Also, Thorak, I'm a 'he'.
Thorak 10-26-04, 02:46 PM	My apologies, Vaal. I suspected as much, but was trying to keep my post gender-neutral to avoid possibly offending by picking the wrong gender, since it's so hard to tell on the 'net. I have no idea how a "she" crept in there, since my gut said you were a "he", so I blame it entirely on an accidental misspelling. I've fixed it.
SearcherOmega 10-26-04, 05:32 PM	Yade... wait a minute, you're the guy who made that post that said 'Spot and Listen should not be skills', weren't you? Hey, if you want to overhaul the entire system, be my guest. Nobody's forcing you to play bards, and if you DM, you can certainly ban bards from your own campaigns. Your only attacks seem to center on the fact that he uses music to inspire allies, which is rather silly. Alright, so it's silly... doesn't make it mechanically useless, nor does it make it conceptually flawed. Have a problem with bards? Great! Stop playing them!
Nithendil 10-26-04, 06:43 PM	This could possibly be the longest drawn-out internet battle in history. :fight!: Fight! Fight! Fight! :fight!: :) My odds are on the bard, but a win by either won't really prove anything other than an interesting battle, as stated by others already.
BlaineTog 10-26-04, 08:51 PM	I can't resist pointing out that it was actually my number. ;)Er... yeah. Sorry about that. Thorak's post was right above mine and I was too lazy to go back and check if anyone else had used it. Does that make more sense?Yes, perfectly. Thanks. Oh, and when this math tangent ends, can we go on a math secant?No. It's less accurate. ;) the famous bardarian:rofl: You know, I've never heard that before. Hilarious. The fight will be very cowardly and music is not going to have a part in it.I cannot possibley respond to this banal statement without being banal myself. ;)
Yade 10-27-04, 01:54 AM	My odds are on the bard, but a win by either won't really prove anything other than an interesting battle, as stated by others already. The bard loses no matter what happens, simply because I have made my point. If I lose the combat I would find it hilarious. I will invision the bard army pouncing on me and wont be able to control my laughter. I am not taking this nearly as serious as some others are.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-04, 02:10 AM	Just PM Wizo Cato your spells so we can stop with the pointless boasting and give these people what they came for? I'm calling for a moratorium on pointless boasting from either combatant extending from now untilthe end of the encounter. This is getting ridiculous.
Yade 10-27-04, 02:25 AM	I sent my spell list in yesterday as promised.
Nimrud 10-27-04, 04:09 AM	The bard loses no matter what happens, simply because I have made my point. If I lose the combat I would find it hilarious. I will invision the bard army pouncing on me and wont be able to control my laughter. I am not taking this nearly as serious as some others are. This is one of the most intemperate displays I've seen so far on these boards. You have not made any point, Yade. In fact, your childish behaviour has done nothing but detract from any valid argument you might have made (not that I've seen any). If the bard is a prancing fool, then you must be a verbal bard.
Yade 10-27-04, 05:32 AM	On the contrary, I have been very polite on this topic and have maintained good spirits the entire time. My opponent has made a ludicrous gesture regardless whether it is succesful or not, that is the basis for my claim. I have been harrangued by numerous players, I have been sent insulting emails and more yet I have not brought it back to this board. If I post for fun and maintain a light air that is my perogative, if these bard people decide to respond with anger and a nasty nature that is not my fault.
Nimrud 10-27-04, 06:13 AM	As an objective bystander, I must disagree. Your posts have not at all been polite or lighthearted, unless calling your opponent names and making ad hominem attacks serve as polite or lighthearted discourse where you live. If you have been harangued and insulted, from what I have read I must conclude that it is in large part provoked by your own verbal aggression. I hope your little "duel" comes to pass quickly, so we can be done with this thread, which will doubtless be locked in short order thereafter due to more "polite and lighthearted" banter from both sides.
boytbpc 10-27-04, 08:59 AM	Just PM Wizo Cato your spells so we can stop with the pointless boasting and give these people what they came for? I'm calling for a moratorium on pointless boasting from either combatant extending from now untilthe end of the encounter. This is getting ridiculous. This is the most intelligent thing said in this thread since the math people correctly proved Yade wrong. Play or go home, this endless bickering is driving me crazy. For Christ's sake, there is even a stickied post waiting to be used.
Yade 10-27-04, 10:14 AM	This is the most intelligent thing said in this thread since the math people correctly proved Yade wrong. Play or go home, this endless bickering is driving me crazy. For Christ's sake, there is even a stickied post waiting to be used. The math people, LOL. They provided a formula where one does not exist. There is no accurate formula for dtermining that number, yo can give a guess like me and another player did, but there is no formula. Probability is unpredictable, therefore no accurate mathematical formula can be made to consistently represent it. That's why I find it funny. If I have been in any way rude it has been in self defense. I have not attacked any player in any way. My opponent does not need to be harrassed by me to realize the situation. And nasty emails are not the answer, I have not sent any out and I wonder why you are condoning them.
ThoughtfulOwl 10-27-04, 10:38 AM	The math people, LOL. They provided a formula where one does not exist. There is no accurate formula for dtermining that number, yo can give a guess like me and another player did, but there is no formula. Probability is unpredictable, therefore no accurate mathematical formula can be made to consistently represent it. That's why I find it funny. Yes, so funny and unpredictable that there is a whole branch of mathematics dedicated to it. :bored: For a context so devoid of mathematical formulae, even a mere recollection of the most frequent ones like the statistics & probability section at Mathworld (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/topics/ProbabilityandStatistics.html) lists quite a bit of them. Now that I think of it: if probability were as unpredictable as you think, then your claim of 5~6% failure rate would be as much ludicrous as our claim of 46%. Ultimately, I don't care at all if you believe us or not; the other 'math people' probably don't, either; just don't expect to be taket seriously by anyone with even the smallest amount of expertise in the field.
Thorak 10-27-04, 11:38 AM	Probability is unpredictable, therefore no accurate mathematical formula can be made to consistently represent it. There's your problem. Probabiliy is entirely predictable, with great accuracy. It's just that, short of 0% or 100%, results will not exactly fit the probability. But that's the distinction between results and probabilty; the probability of winning the lottery is ridiculously tiny. Yet, somebody wins. All the time. Just because you don't understand/haven't gotten far enough in school (I assume, otherwise I fear for your country's educational system if people are graduating high school without basic math) doesn't mean the formula's wrong. It means you're uneducated in that field.
ThoughtfulOwl 10-27-04, 12:10 PM	There's your problem. Probabiliy is entirely predictable, with great accuracy. This pretty much sums it up; the only field where probability isn't inherently accurate is estimating an unknown probability distribution when all you have is statistical data, which may be incomplete, biased and noisy. In this case, however, the probability distribution of the basic event (a d20 roll) is known beforehand (each number has probability 1/20); the probability of any event entirely based on one or more d20 rolls isn't just predictable, it can be calculated with 100% accuracy.
fushigisaru 10-27-04, 12:49 PM	Heh, I think I see where Yade is coming from. If you take away a bard's ability to fight, take away all of his spells, and take away all of his skills, and just leave his music ability, he'd be almost useless. It seems Yade doesn't count all the things bards can do, as evident in his saying that Vaal doing anything besides music is unbardlike. I think everyone can agree if all a bard ever could do was his music ability, it's be a very lacking class. Yade just needs to see that what makes the bard useful is the fact he can act as a poor warrior, a poor wizard, a poor rogue, a poor healer, all combined into one. It's so that whenever anything comes up, he has an alternate ability. If Yade's character is able to get past Vaal's music, the fact Vaal has multiple other options to go to just proves the quality of the bard class. For example, if a Bard wants to use music abilities such as fascinate or suggestion but finds a deaf monster, he can move on to magic, if theres some sort of anti-magic field, he can turn to fighting, if the battles too tough for his melee, he could use his skills to maybe sneak into a better position or to use a magical item to give him the edge he needs. If all of that fails, he can still buff his buddies up a ton and heal their wounds, which might be just what it takes to defeat the bad guy.
Thelon Fairblade 10-27-04, 01:17 PM	I'd just like to chime in with a campaign report. The party consists of a druid, a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, and the bard. (I'm the GM.) (all roughly 10th level) I cannot tell you how many times PCs have hit their foes by just the +2 margin afforded by Inspire Courage. Or dropped their targets by the +2 damage (in many cases, the accumulation of multiple +2 damage bonuses from many hits). And in the last session, the bard saved the lives of hte *entire* party by judicious application of Inspire Greatness on the Cleric and then the rogue, giving them the HP and *additional* *stacking*+2 bonus to stand up to the final foe long enough to flank and sneak attack it. On top of that, he is the party's escape hatch (Dimension Door), on-the-spot healer (CLW, CMW, and CSW!), and the source of an important buff (Haste, no other caster in the group has it). He even provides comfort when traveling, with Secure Shelter. (Although his Diplomacy skill is quite high, the *player* sadly is not much of a speaker, and has insulted so many NPCs that the bard is no longer allowed to talk for the group!) He isn't the group's strongest fighter, of course, but he is reasonably safe in +3 chain shirt, +1 buckler, and Mirror Image. Plus his +1 orcbane ghosttouch mithril rapier has proven to be a critical force in many of the party's encounters with undead (""silver", "magic", and "Ghosttouch"!). Would the party be okay without him? Sure... they'd just have to tackle much weaker foes. He is a "force multiplier"; as PC #5, he allows the group to tackle threats that would otherwise be beyond their reach (this last fight was CR 16, for example). With 4 other party members, his Inspire Courage ability alone is the same as 4 Persistent Bull's Strengths... and he can buff the druid's companion, the wizard's familiar, and several summonses too! And *then* he can heal, buff, transport, shelter, etc....
Skole 10-27-04, 04:00 PM	I had a bard (who sadly died on a failed will save) and imagine it could have beaten any of the fighter types in the party. Personally, I just don't think they are utilized properly. A high level bard VS a high level fighter should typically have the bard using invisibility, greater on himself, calling in some allies using summon monster to keep the warrior busy, buffing with a few spells then start singing. After that pull out a Wand of Fireballs and blast the hell out of the fighter type whilst staying invis. Or wade into melee with your improved stats, whilst the fighter has his 50% miss chance due to your concealment. The most important aspect of a bard in my mind is Use Magic Device. A scroll of stoneskin here, A wand of polymorph there. Sure these are costly, but in a pinch the bard has access to even the most powerful magic. Then consider that the bards key role is support and his ability to improve the effectivess of others, and you've got a character who makes everyone more effective and when times get tough pulls out the magical items and get's nasty. Most classes can beat the warrior types at high level though, but I believe that a smart bard, can go toe-to-toe with a spellcaster (albeit for a limited amount of time).
baerdith 10-27-04, 11:06 PM	Heh, I think I see where Yade is coming from. If you take away a bard's ability . I think this is Yade whole point: If you take away everything that makes a Bard a Bard and leave him just as a expert with possible fewer skills, and just a bit bett hp, then yes I admit it, the Bard in this case is useless. The thing is, the class AS WRITTEN is strong, and viable in MANY roles. Accept it, send in your spells to Cat and MOVE ON.
Yade 10-28-04, 12:12 AM	My spells have been in for several days now. My point is that the bard is not anything more than a support class. Vaal made the challenge and now he will have to live with the consequences. In reality, I don't care anymore about this duel. No matter whether I win or lose I still lose due to the amount of real life harrassment I am now receiving from the people on this board. They have no math skills. They pick apart every word I type. They have no chance of winning the duel and are now out to get me in real life. How low is that. And whoever has been calling me, Blaine or Vaal or whoever, please stop my wife does not need the stress. You people have a lack of perspective so let me give you one, this is not an important facet of any of our lives. We could have had some fun here and joked around but your total lack of humor and inflexibility has made it sour.
BlaineTog 10-28-04, 12:20 AM	They have no math skills.:rolleyes: They pick apart every word I type.But of course. We do this to everyone. :D They have no chance of winning the duelJust a *tad* presumptuous. and are now out to get me in real life. How low is that. And whoever has been calling me, Blaine or Vaal or whoever, please stop my wife does not need the stress.It's certainly not me. Going after someone outside of the thread is just vile. It's rude to attack them even just on other threads. I agree: whoever's doing it, grow up.
Snommelp 10-28-04, 12:53 AM	I agree that whomever is taking this debate off of the boards should stop. I enjoy arguing, probably more than I should, but even I know that that's going too far.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-28-04, 02:21 AM	Certainly wasn't me. I'm rarely suprised at the audacity of 'net kiddies these days, trying to be internet gangsta over anything they don't like. If anyone resposable for it is reading this now: SHUT IT. No matter who's side your on, your opinion doesn't count by default because you're too immature to handle your feelings about a game in a mature and constructive manner.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 03:28 AM	wasn't me. I don't care enough to be that fanatical to anything. Especially of a character class in a game. (The amount of cash and effort I put into it nonwithstanding.) Honestly, Yade, if someone did that to me, I'd get the police or a lawyer involved if someone is doing that to you, because that is harassment. That is, if it is bad enough. Lawyers might have a bad rep these days, but they're great to have when you need them. I have a low tolerence for people who go out of their way to bother me like that.
Yade 10-28-04, 09:19 AM	I appreciate everyone's support on this. In the 21st century we have a little thing called caller ID so the police have already been notified. I suppose if you are going to prank call someone or threaten them by phone you shoudn't do it from your home phone. Nonetheless, I don't anticipate them calling for much longer. It's just that my wife got the last call and she has no sense of humor for some things. It looks as though Catabolepas has a life and does not have time for our little squabble. I say we call it a draw and move on, I was shooting my mouth off a little and so was Vaal. So if Vaal agrees we can post our character sheets and finish this little thread. I think people still want to see what we were going to do to each other, I know I am a little curious. digame.
Mirror, Mirror 10-28-04, 10:18 AM	Truly, taking arguments outside the board is horrible. Good for you, calling the police and all. And it wasn't me :D
Snommelp 10-28-04, 11:53 AM	It looks as though Catabolepas has a life and does not have time for our little squabble. I say we call it a draw and move on, I was shooting my mouth off a little and so was Vaal. So if Vaal agrees we can post our character sheets and finish this little thread. I think people still want to see what we were going to do to each other, I know I am a little curious. No duel? :bigeyes: please?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-28-04, 01:57 PM	Yeah, I think this has carried on too far. Lets post our sheets and then, for those who want to duel, they can go to the Collseum (sp) or issue/recieve challenges (even against me) on my forum (also the chat channel). I have to reinstall/reactive Word on my new computer before I can post Evanius though.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 08:14 PM	see, I could have had this going from the get-go several pages ago, were I the moderator. but noooooo.... I was even going to use the online dice roller (the one used I think at the core collesium or the online D&D game threads.) Even though I can be opinionated, I do conduct things like that impartially. ....grumble grumble....
Mercurius 10-29-04, 10:12 AM	*Pats TheDarkestOfAngels on the back.* I wouldn't have minded seeing this thing get resolved, but if it's inevitable that it won't be, I would be interested in seeing what the participants had as characters and what their planned tactics were, I guess...
Zelphi 10-29-04, 10:39 AM	Yeah I wanna hear tactics... I think Vaal was gonna have a bunch of creatures and buff them all to Hell. Oh and Vaal wasn't exagerating. I think you should dual, at least to stop that stickied topic from looking stupid. --Don't want to sound bateish... but you're an adult? Come up with a constructed dossier on the Bard and talk reasonably, asking for assistance in understand the strength of the Bard would've been more constructive.
Yade 10-29-04, 11:33 AM	Tonight I will post my character and my spell list. As I said before this character was designed to defeat a spell caster and that should be obvious. If anyone wants to try and use the character to duel Vaal that is fine, but I am not interested. I purposely picked an item to use that would prove my point, that magic items should not have been included, simply because they become the deciding factor, not the character class.
Yade 10-30-04, 12:18 AM	STR 11 DEX 13 CON 17 INT 11 WIS 26 CHA 7 The WIS score started as a 17, I got 3 ability score increases for being level 12, and I have an item that boosts it by 6. Reflex 10 (12) Fortitude 16 (18) Will 23 (25) I am wearing a cloak that gives me +5 to all saves, in addition I took Iron Will as a feat. The number in the parenthesis refers to a racial bonus to all saves vs. spells or spell-like abilities (the bard music would have used the number in the parenthesis). Periapt of Wisdom +6 Cloak of Resistance +5 Circlet of Blasting (major) Potion of Heroism Potion of Invisibility Full Plate Morningstar The circlet of blasting is the only item I added to this NPC for this fight. I wanted to show people that magic items can unnaturally sway a fight. 40pts of damage with no save, well that makes a difference. Still Spell Silent Spell Combat Casting Maximize Spell Iron Will My primary offensive spell was Searing Light, which was maximized twice, silent and still twice and regular 3 times. I also had slay living still spelled and regular and harm. There were other spells but I will list them as they become important. My Domains were Magic and Travel so I had both teleport and anti-magic zone as spells. I had true seeing prepared as well as a few dispel magics. Concentrate 22 Spellcraft 15 Hp 132 AC 20 This is the basics of the character that i was going to use. As I have said numerous times before, he was not designed to fight a bard.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-30-04, 01:01 AM	I cannot tell you how many times PCs have hit their foes by just the +2 margin afforded by Inspire Courage. Or dropped their targets by the +2 damage (in many cases, the accumulation of multiple +2 damage bonuses from many hits). ... He is a "force multiplier"; as PC #5, he allows the group to tackle threats that would otherwise be beyond their reach Quite true, and not too surprising if you work out the math. Generally speaking, each +1 to hit is worth about +10% damage, especially when taking into account iterative attacks. (+15/+10 vs. AC 23 averages 1.05 hits; +16/+11 vs. AC 23 averages 1.15 hits, or 10% more) At mid levels, each +1 to damage is worth about +5-10% damage (5% on a greatsword fighter, 10% on a non-sneak arrow). Accordingly, +2 to hit and damage is worth about +35% damage to a fighting party member. Even if he just stands there and sings while three party members fight, the Bard is still contributing the same amount of expected damage as any one of those characters who are actually swinging weapons. Add in some reasonable attack capabilities of his own, and the Bard is---directly or indirectly---contributing much more to the fight than any other character. (The problem, IMHO, is that much of the Bard's power only comes indirectly, from boosting the power of others, so the Bard looks and sometimes feels weak in comparison.)
Thorak 10-30-04, 01:03 AM	I'll just note, as a point of interest, that while Searing Light doesn't have a save, you do have to make a Ranged Touch attack. And your character, with their BAB and Dex, will have a +10 to hit. Displacement, a 3rd level Bard spell, will mean 50% of those Searing Lights will just plain miss. Invisibility will keep you from being able to target Vaal at all, if he's further away than 120'. And, like I mentioned earlier, Grease could screw you up. If Vaal has a Cha of 26, in the same way you got your Wis that high, then it's a DC 19 save. Assuming nothing else affects it. With your Reflex, that's a 1/3 chance of failing. Every round, and if you fail, you fall. And if you try to move, you make a Balance check (at a -6 due to your ACP), or you can't move. You can be fairly effectively immobilized with that one casting; even if you keep your feet, you probably can't get out. If Vaal can, through dex and such, get a touch AC of even 20, and casts Displacement, then your Searing Lights are going to have a nice 25% chance of hitting him. And I'll also note that, since others were claiming Fascinate DCs of anywhere from 31 to 51, averaging 41, on average there's about a 75% chance of you getting Fascinated, even with your mondo Will save. And then there's a 46% chance of failing a Suggestion. At which point, if you make it, Vaal can try and Fascinate again. If anything, I'd say your character is better set-up to fight a Bard than any other caster-type. Other caster types have many more Reflex-save spells to abuse you with. I don't think this fight is by any means a given, and we haven't even seen Vaal's sheet yet. Not that I think you're necessarily going to lose, but it's hardly as much a given as you've implied in the past.
Snommelp 10-30-04, 01:08 AM	I dont have my DMG with me, so I don't know the rules for the circlet of blasting, but I'm assuming since there's no save that it needs a ranged touch attack to hit. Either that, or you've got yourself a really nice magic missile cannon.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-30-04, 01:15 AM	Str 11 (+0) Dex 15 (+2) Con 13 (+1) Wis 9 (-1) (perception) Int 11 (+0) Chr 24 (+7) (1/2 looks) Chr = 17 +3 +4 Spells: Per day: 3 /5/ 5/ 5/ 3/ —/ — Known: Oth: Daze, Flare, Mage Hand, Ghost sounds, Prestidigitation, Resistance 1st:FeatherFall Cure light, Magic Mouth, Silent Image 2nd: Hold Person, Silence, Summon Monster II, Sound Burst 3rd: Sculpt Sound, Major Image, Dispel Magic, Summon Monster III 4th: Greater Invis, Dimension Door, Dominate person I didn't know what I was up against, and 3.5 screwed Evanius's old list anyway, so I reworked it to be heavy on illusion and control to keep and opponent confused at range. Gentle Requiem: +1 Merciful, Viscious Scythe (18,000 gp) GigaBow: +1 Shocking Burst Bow (18,000gp) Harmonic Chain: Mithral chainshirt of SR 15 (17,100gp) Cloak of Charisma +4 (16,000gp) Circlet of Persuasion (4,500 gp) Wand of Web (4500gp) Wand of Cure Mod (4500gp) 2x Potions of Fly (600gp) Bag of tricks, tan (6,300gp) Traveler’s clothes Once again, I have to rework Evanius becuase we were using the cursed edition. So I went for more of an omni bard then the mind controlling theme he had in the game I ran him as. The bag of tricks was my ace. Between creatures I summon and those from the bag, I planned to keep my enemy off kilter and my creatures bolstered with my oration. The Gentle Requiem was original equipment from Evanius, and my answer to the monk in case I had to go hand to hand vs someone faster than me. Feats (+1 human, 5 level) Rapid Shot Point Blank Shot Shot on the Run Spell Penetration Combat Casting Quick Draw My primary strategy was going invis. one round 1, chugging a fly potion on round 2, then circling with animals, capping with a summoned monsterous centipede to drain Dex. While the monster draw his spells, I invisably pepper him with arrows and orate. Once he is forced to go mano a tiger..o , I web then start up with the holds/ Dominate while my minions continue thier inexorable assault. Once a hold takes, I drop down for the coup de grace.
Yade 10-30-04, 01:21 AM	If Vaal can, through dex and such, get a touch AC of even 20, and casts Displacement, then your Searing Lights are going to have a nice 25% chance of hitting him. And I'll also note that, since others were claiming Fascinate DCs of anywhere from 31 to 51, averaging 41, on average there's about a 75% chance of you getting Fascinated, even with your mondo Will save. And then there's a 46% chance of failing a Suggestion. At which point, if you make it, Vaal can try and Fascinate again. I am not going to say it again, THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL FORMULA THAT CAN DETERINE THIS. There is a 5% chance that I would roll a 1. That being said he was not likely to suggest anything to me. I never disputed the fact that he would be able to fascinate me, I would have had a hard time beating that save.
BlaineTog 10-30-04, 02:05 AM	I am not going to say it again, THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL FORMULA THAT CAN DETERINE THIS. There is a 5% chance that I would roll a 1.Wow. Just wow. That being said he was not likely to suggest anything to me. I never disputed the fact that he would be able to fascinate me, I would have had a hard time beating that save.You know, I had forgotten that he could always try to fascinate you *again* if you somehow made it through 12 saves. Of course, the whole point is completelly moot as he wasn't going this route.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-30-04, 03:39 AM	I am not going to say it again, THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL FORMULA THAT CAN DETERINE THIS. How about this - you roll 12d20, and mark down if you roll any 1s. Do the same thing another 49 times, for a total of 50 sets of 12d20. Come back and tell us how many of those 50 sets of 12d20 contained at least one roll of 1. Try it---honestly and for real---and tell us how close you get to the 23 sets containing a 1 that people are predicting. If you are certain that all of those people are wrong, there's no reason for you not to do this.
ThoughtfulOwl 10-30-04, 04:06 AM	I am not going to say it again, THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL FORMULA THAT CAN DETERINE THIS. There is a 5% chance that I would roll a 1. That being said he was not likely to suggest anything to me. I never disputed the fact that he would be able to fascinate me, I would have had a hard time beating that save. Mmmh, I just browsed the exercises book I used for my statistics course at the university 5 years ago; here is the third exercise of the first chapter (probability basics), traslated from Italian for your convenience: A die (note: a d6) is thrown three times. What is the probability of getting a 4 at least once? How many times must the die be thrown so that the probability of getting a 4 at least once is at least 50%? It then gives the correct solution so that students can check their work; here is the solution: A={getting a 4 at least once} P(A on three rolls)=1-(5/6)^3, where (5/6)^3 is the probability of never getting 4 on three rolls. The passage P(not a 4 on one die)=5/6 -> P(not a 4 on three dice)=(5/6)^3 is taken so much for granted that the text doesn't even bother to explain it, assuming that the student has already learned it in the accompanying textbook. Then it follows: P(A on k rolls)=1-(5/6)^k 1-(5/6)^k >= 0.5 It then solves the inequality, getting k >= 3.8017 and thus at least 4 rolls. Now, we were discussing about a d20, a chance of 19/20 of not rolling a 1 instead of one of 5/6 of not rolling a 4 and k=12 rolls. The chance of rolling 1 at least once with 12 rolls of a d20 is 1-(19/20)^12. Not only there is a mathematical formula, it's even so basic that you can find it among introductory exercises. :P
PsionicMonk 10-30-04, 05:44 AM	when did this thead turn into Math 101? also Bards arent "useless" they are "use-less" there is a differnce, as the PHB says they are the 'jack of all trades' they are not great at one thing just good at all things. So really they are a support chr, that gets underplayed because most people are powergameing, im guilty of it, plus i dont like being "good" at everything i rather be great at spell casting or fighting. (even tho im currently playing a spellsword..... :looloo: )
Felonious Monk 10-30-04, 07:07 AM	It turned into Math 101 when a poster denied the existence of math.
Cacevius 10-30-04, 07:13 AM	Yade: ///Quoting from Thorak: // If Vaal can, through dex and such, get a touch AC of even 20, and casts Displacement, then your Searing Lights are going to have a nice 25% chance of hitting him. And I'll also note that, since others were claiming Fascinate DCs of anywhere from 31 to 51, averaging 41, on average there's about a 75% chance of you getting Fascinated, even with your mondo Will save. And then there's a 46% chance of failing a Suggestion. At which point, if you make it, Vaal can try and Fascinate again.// I am not going to say it again, THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL FORMULA THAT CAN DETERINE THIS./// With the tension on this thread somewhat reduced, it is probably worth it once again to try and help Yade with his math. Not because it matters for the thread about bards, not because it is a role playing issue - but because statements like the above can mess up an adult's reputation, career and life for good if he repeats them with conviction at university, in an office, or in other professional real life situations. For subjects of common interest like probability theory, there are many good web resources. To math laymen I recommend the Wikipedia. Yade, before risking your real life success for your opinions about math, *please* look up the following pages there and try to understand them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_probability_topics (just a list of the available topics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial (basic terms on coin flipping and dice throwing experiments) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_process (basic terms on repeated coin flipping and dice throwing experiments) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution (the relevant distribution and variance for exactly k successes out of n throws/flips) Every used technical term - like probability, expected value, distribution, variance - is explained there too, in easily accessible chapters. Take care, Cacevius
boytbpc 10-30-04, 07:40 AM	This thread has really become the epitomy of all that is effete and spineless. Yade, not to make personal attacks but, you have started an argument by stating opinions that you knew to be incendiary and failing to admit that you have made logical mistakes (in a field that I would assume that you are not a professional in). Agreeing to and then subsequently withdrawing from a duel shows that you concede victory. Vaal, I wish that you would have not agreed so quickly to let Yade concede. I guess what I'm getting at is that their needs to be accountability. A person should be accountable for their actions even if it does take place on the Internet. Unfortunately, some of you think it is humorous to start arguments over the Internet because the childish rush of debasing someone is retainded but without the responsiblity of having to defend yourself logically, ethically, morally, or physically. I'm finished, you can now return to your drawn out squabbles. Boytbpc
Roxlimn 10-30-04, 08:51 AM	Not to diss on you, Yade or anything, but that Cleric is so toast. If Vaal can use the Wand of Web, you're dead meat. Not only do you have a low Ref save, which means that you still have a good chance of failing what should be a chump save, but you also have a low Strength score, meaning that even if you do save, it'll take you forever to get through the Web. Once he gets you Webbed, and with his higher Dex, you need to have prepared several Dispel magics Stilled to get you out. The sad thing is that he'll just Web you again until you run out. Once he gets a round to himself, he can use Invis and his multiple boosted monsters tactic to get you good. The worse case scenario I can see for Evanius is if he has to deal with Anti-Magic Shell but even then, it'll probably come down to a knock-down melee fight, and in that scenario, I can see the Cleric winning. The fact that the Cleric is acknowledged by many to be one of the, if not the most powerful class, and that this Cleric is having trouble competing with a Bard in an area that's not typically the Bard's greatest strength - that would be buffing his fighting allies to insane proportions - should tell you proof positive that the Bard class is a very strong class, indeed.
Cacevius 10-30-04, 09:12 AM	boytbpc: //Agreeing to and then subsequently withdrawing from a duel shows that you concede victory.// boytbpc, read just a little between the lines. AFAIK, that 'duel' was *not* called off by Yade. Calling it off was for quite transparent reasons necessary, and got done. Kudos to those who did. Take care, Cacevius
zudbash 10-30-04, 10:23 AM	Not to diss on you, Yade or anything, but that Cleric is so toast. If Vaal can use the Wand of Web, you're dead meat. Not only do you have a low Ref save, which means that you still have a good chance of failing what should be a chump save, but you also have a low Strength score, meaning that even if you do save, it'll take you forever to get through the Web. Once he gets you Webbed, and with his higher Dex, you need to have prepared several Dispel magics Stilled to get you out. The sad thing is that he'll just Web you again until you run out. Once he gets a round to himself, he can use Invis and his multiple boosted monsters tactic to get you good. The worse case scenario I can see for Evanius is if he has to deal with Anti-Magic Shell but even then, it'll probably come down to a knock-down melee fight, and in that scenario, I can see the Cleric winning. The fact that the Cleric is acknowledged by many to be one of the, if not the most powerful class, and that this Cleric is having trouble competing with a Bard in an area that's not typically the Bard's greatest strength - that would be buffing his fighting allies to insane proportions - should tell you proof positive that the Bard class is a very strong class, indeed. First of all, Web will be totally ineffective. Yade's cleric has the Travel domain, which gives him a free Freedom of Movement. Of course, even clerics without the Travel domain's special power can simply cast Freedom of Movement. Second, True Seeing is a good counter to many of the bard's best defensive spells. The problem I see with Vaal's strategy is that the cleric will also be airborne and is (potentially) a better summoner than the bard. So the cleric could use the bard's own tactic more effectively. Of course, the cleric has many other options available that might be better than summoning. It would be nice if Yade posted his spells memorized.
Roxlimn 10-30-04, 11:41 AM	First of all, Web will be totally ineffective. Yade's cleric has the Travel domain, which gives him a free Freedom of Movement. Of course, even clerics without the Travel domain's special power can simply cast Freedom of Movement. Quite right! I forgot all about the Travel Domain's granted power. Even so, it'll last for only a few rounds. Clerics can indeed cast Freedom of Movement, the question is does the Cleric have it prepared? Second, True Seeing is a good counter to many of the bard's best defensive spells. Not Silence, unfortunately. Still, it's a decent spell. Could pose Dispel problems for Evanius. The problem I see with Vaal's strategy is that the cleric will also be airborne and is (potentially) a better summoner than the bard. So the cleric could use the bard's own tactic more effectively. Of course, the cleric has many other options available that might be better than summoning. It would be nice if Yade posted his spells memorized. The Cleric is definitely a lot better summoner, but then he'll be using his high level slots for Slay Living and True Seeing as well as his modified Searing Light Spells for offense. Even if the Webs don't restrain him eventually, he'll have to deal with Evanius using the Webs and his creatures as concealment. He's definitely got better options than that so I'm not sure why he's using valuable slots on things like Searing Light. Once the Bard starts boosting his creatures with oration and they get friendly with the Cleric, it will be looking ill for him. The best chance the Cleric's got is to go first and hope to hit with Slay Living. The Bard's got very low chances of passing that save, so the Cleric's got at least a decent chance of winning if he goes first.
Yade 10-30-04, 11:44 AM	If we all agree that there is a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on a single roll, then we must also agree that there is an equal 5% chance that we will roll ANY other given number on a single roll. Therefore, all numbers on a D20 are equally represented. Hence the whole "chance" thing. If we agree that it is totally random as to which number will come up, due to the fact that they are equally represented. If you disagree with this you are obviously saying that you think you can predict which number is going to come up next. These two statements should be Blatantly obvious to all. Then IF in 12 rolls of a D20 if there is a 46% chance of a one coming up then there MUST be a 46% chance of ALL other numbers coming up. The numbers must be equally represented. Therefore there is a: 46% chance of a 1 coming up 46% chance of a 2 coming up 46% chance of a 3 coming up 46% chance of a 4 coming up 46% chance of a 5 coming up 46% chance of a 6 coming up 46% chance of a 7 coming up 46% chance of a 8 coming up 46% chance of a 9 coming up 46% chance of a 10 coming up 46% chance of a 11 coming up 46% chance of a 12 coming up 46% chance of a 13 coming up 46% chance of a 14 coming up 46% chance of a 15 coming up 46% chance of a 16 coming up 46% chance of a 17 coming up 46% chance of a 18 coming up 46% chance of a 19 coming up 46% chance of a 20 coming up Now if you add that up you will see that in 12 rolls we have far exceeded 100% MEANING that your figure is totally ludicrous. PROBABILITY: If you roll a dice enough times all of the given numbers will eventually come up. There is NO accurate mathematical formula to represent this, it is all speculative. Blaine I thought you were educated, you say WOW and I have this to say. Some people are so ignorant that they keep their mouths shut, because they are aware of their ignorance. Then there are the ignorant ones that are so far gone that they are totally unaware of how ignorant they are. You need to decide which category you want to be in. FIND me a link to a math page that defends your mathematical opinions, and please... please let this be the end of the moronic math debate.
Yade 10-30-04, 11:55 AM	Mmmh, I just browsed the exercises book I used for my statistics course at the university 5 years ago; here is the third exercise of the first chapter (probability basics), traslated from Italian for your convenience: A die (note: a d6) is thrown three times. What is the probability of getting a 4 at least once? How many times must the die be thrown so that the probability of getting a 4 at least once is at least 50%? It then gives the correct solution so that students can check their work; here is the solution: A={getting a 4 at least once} P(A on three rolls)=1-(5/6)^3, where (5/6)^3 is the probability of never getting 4 on three rolls. The passage P(not a 4 on one die)=5/6 -> P(not a 4 on three dice)=(5/6)^3 is taken so much for granted that the text doesn't even bother to explain it, assuming that the student has already learned it in the accompanying textbook. Then it follows: P(A on k rolls)=1-(5/6)^k 1-(5/6)^k >= 0.5 It then solves the inequality, getting k >= 3.8017 and thus at least 4 rolls. Now, we were discussing about a d20, a chance of 19/20 of not rolling a 1 instead of one of 5/6 of not rolling a 4 and k=12 rolls. The chance of rolling 1 at least once with 12 rolls of a d20 is 1-(19/20)^12. Not only there is a mathematical formula, it's even so basic that you can find it among introductory exercises. :P OWL you need to be in Vegas because with this theory you should be great in Craps. Speaking of craps it sounds alot like your theory. Let me ask you this. IF there is a 50% chance of rolling a 4 on those 3 dice then there MUST be a 100% chance that you will get it on 6 rolls. Durrrrrrrrrrr. I don't think so, becaue if you roll 6d6 and bever get a 4 then your whole formula is craps. If someone out there can roll 6 dice and never get a 4 then your theory is Inconsistent. Will you people please stop trying to place a SOLID statistical number to chance. That is a "Statistics Book" and I am sure that it is worded that a 4 is Likely to come up, not mathematically guaranteed.
Roxlimn 10-30-04, 12:00 PM	Yade: Psst. *whisper* Yade... It's not opinion. It's pure probability mechanics, and the equation was placed right before your very eyes. *whisper* 46% is the probability that a one will show up at least once in twenty rolls. This is true for any particular number. There is a 46% chance that any particular number will show up once in a 12 roll series. The 54% chance isn't the chance that all the other numbers will show up at least once. In fact, it's ludicrous to even link the two together and shows a very basic lack of understanding in probability theory let alone mechanics. 54% is the conglomerate chance that a one will never occur in a 12 roll d20 series. This is the same probability for every other number. There is also a 54% chance that you will not get a 5 at least once in a 12 roll series of a d20. These statements are derived from the probabilities of each number appearing in a single event - ie die roll, but you have to understand that they are calculated probabilities of multiple events predicating a set condition. Look up any math teacher at your school who understands probability mechanics. Also: Let me ask you this. IF there is a 50% chance of rolling a 4 on those 3 dice then there MUST be a 100% chance that you will get it on 6 rolls. Why should that be true? If there is a 50% chance to get a Tails in a flip for one flip, is the chance for getting Tails at least once in 2 flips 100%? Of course not. The probability for getting Tails at least once in two flips of a coin is 75% exactly. Besides, he was talking about setting the probability of getting a 4 at least once so 4 rolls is just about right, IMO, and the math plays out. FYI, the probability of getting a 4 at least once on 6 rolls is about 66.5%, not 100%. Probabilities aren't additive, Yade. They rarely are. If someone out there can roll 6 dice and never get a 4 then your theory is Inconsistent. 1) I wouldn't credit him with that theory. He didn't develop it. 2) The probability of never rolling a 4 in 6 rolls is 33.5%. Bear with me. If you have the probability of never rolling a 4 in 6 rolls, then it follows that the probability that's left is that you rolled a 4 at least once, right? So Never Rolling a 4 + Rolling a 4 at Least Once should = 100%, correct? That is a "Statistics Book" and I am sure that it is worded that a 4 is Likely to come up, not mathematically guaranteed. If you like, we can calculate the number of rolls it would take for you to come up with a 99.9% chance to roll a 4 at least once on a d6. It never goes to 100%, you see. There's always that incredible chance that you never roll a 4 in 2 million rolls.
ThoughtfulOwl 10-30-04, 12:33 PM	Now if you add that up you will see that in 12 rolls we have far exceeded 100% MEANING that your figure is totally ludicrous. You were right up to this point, but then draw the wrong conclusion. Probabilities must add to 1 (100%) only when they are (a) mutually exclusive and (b) their union covers every outcome of an event. This is not the case, as point (a) isn't satisfied: these events overlaps, since over 12 rolls, you could roll a 1 and roll a 12 and roll, say, a 3. This is why their sum can be greater than 100%. IF there is a 50% chance of rolling a 4 on those 3 dice then there MUST be a 100% chance that you will get it on 6 rolls. Sorry but no. There is nothing in the formula that implies the second half of your statement; the chance doesn't grow linearly, it grows logaritmically. The formula is 1-(5/6)^k, where k is the number of rolls. Plug the numbers in a calculator and you get: # of chance of rolls rolling 4 1 0,17 2 0,31 3 0,42 4 0,52 5 0,6 6 0,67 7 0,72 8 0,77 9 0,81 10 0,84 11 0,87 12 0,89 13 0,91 14 0,92 15 0,94 16 0,95 17 0,95 18 0,96 19 0,97 20 0,97 The chance of rolling at least one 4 approaches 100% at ever slower pace as the number of rolls approaches infinity; conversely, the chance of never rolling a 4 approaches 0%. Oh, and about our "inconsistent theories": 1) They aren't inconsistent; the inconsistencies arise from your own misconceptions. 2) The principles that lead to them are the basic blocks of probability theory and statistics; not to mention that experiments with dice are a popular example in textbooks and courses about probability. By denying not only the correctness but the very existence of our formula, you are basically claiming that the courses or classes we took on statistics are a fraud; this is why we are so upset. 3) Several links have been posted already to pages containing the basics of probability theory; if you can't be bothered to read and understand them, it's not our problem. 4) As Roxlimn said they aren't "ours"; they have been developed, proven and applied over the centuries by many people with even better mathematical attitude and far more motivation than us.
BlaineTog 10-30-04, 12:49 PM	These two statements should be Blatantly obvious to all. Then IF in 12 rolls of a D20 if there is a 46% chance of a one coming up then there MUST be a 46% chance of ALL other numbers coming up. The numbers must be equally represented. Therefore there is a: 46% chance of a 1 coming up 46% chance of a 2 coming up 46% chance of a 3 coming up 46% chance of a 4 coming up 46% chance of a 5 coming up 46% chance of a 6 coming up 46% chance of a 7 coming up 46% chance of a 8 coming up 46% chance of a 9 coming up 46% chance of a 10 coming up 46% chance of a 11 coming up 46% chance of a 12 coming up 46% chance of a 13 coming up 46% chance of a 14 coming up 46% chance of a 15 coming up 46% chance of a 16 coming up 46% chance of a 17 coming up 46% chance of a 18 coming up 46% chance of a 19 coming up 46% chance of a 20 coming up Now if you add that up you will see that in 12 rolls we have far exceeded 100% MEANING that your figure is totally ludicrous.You wouldn't add them up. That doesn't make sense. They arn't connected linearly. There is NO accurate mathematical formula to represent this, it is all speculative.Oh, but there is an accurate mathematical formula. It's: 100*[1 - (Number of numbers you can roll to suceeed / total number of sides)^(number of times the die is rolled)]. Blaine I thought you were educated, you say WOW and I have this to say. Some people are so ignorant that they keep their mouths shut, because they are aware of their ignorance. Then there are the ignorant ones that are so far gone that they are totally unaware of how ignorant they are. You need to decide which category you want to be in.Description of Ad Hominem Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person." An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form: Person A makes claim X. Person B makes an attack on person A. Therefore A's claim is false. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made). I said "wow" because of all the hard math evidence that we've already throw into the thread. I was trying to avoid being "banal," as you so eloquently put it. This link (http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ozsvath/Assignments/Die%20Probability.htm) will take you to a 10-sided die probability chart: http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ozsvath/Assignments/Die%20Pr1.gif Now as you know, rolling a 0 on a ten sided die is really rolling a 10 (that's how they label them). So this is really the probability of rolling any one number once during a series of rolls. Notice something? It goes up, rather rapidly, as the number of dice rolled goes up. 1 - 1 1 - 2 1 - 3 1 - 4 1 - 5 1 - 6 2 - 1 2 - 2 2 - 3 2 - 4 2 - 5 2 - 6 3 - 1 3 - 2 3 - 3 3 - 4 3 - 5 3 - 6 4 - 1 4 - 2 4 - 3 4 - 4 4 - 5 4 - 6 5 - 1 5 - 2 5 - 3 5 - 4 5 - 5 5 - 6 6 - 1 6 - 2 6 - 3 6 - 4 6 - 5 6 - 6 This chart was taken from this page (http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/rollthe/dice1.html). It's a blatant fact: it's just all possible roll combinations when rolling just 2 d6s. 36 total rolls. Using our formula, the chances of rolling a 1 are 100[1-(5/6)^2] for 2 dice, or ~31%. How many of those rolls contain at least one one? 11. From this site (http://www.bonita.k12.ca.us/schools/ramona/teachers/carlton/tutorialexplanations/exM-R/probabilityodds/01probabilityodds.html), we know that: Probability = (Number of desirable results) / (Total possible number of results). So: (Number of sets with a 1 in them)/(Number of total sets) gives us the probability of rolling a set with at least 1 one in it. 11/36 = (shockingly) ~31%. In fact, both are 30.555... %.
Thorak 10-30-04, 12:51 PM	If we all agree that there is a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on a single roll, then we must also agree that there is an equal 5% chance that we will roll ANY other given number on a single roll. Therefore, all numbers on a D20 are equally represented. Hence the whole "chance" thing. If we agree that it is totally random as to which number will come up, due to the fact that they are equally represented. If you disagree with this you are obviously saying that you think you can predict which number is going to come up next. These two statements should be Blatantly obvious to all. Yes, these statements are true. They are the basis of probability arguments like this. Your later reasoning is what is flawed. As I will show. Then IF in 12 rolls of a D20 if there is a 46% chance of a one coming up then there MUST be a 46% chance of ALL other numbers coming up. The numbers must be equally represented. Therefore there is a: [46% chance of each separate number coming up, edited to save room - Thorak] Now if you add that up you will see that in 12 rolls we have far exceeded 100% MEANING that your figure is totally ludicrous. This last line is your error. Those 46% chances are the odds that each number will show up at least once, and other numbers were ignored. You can't then add the numbers together for each number, the ones the equations necessarily ignored, to get a total probability. The odds of rolling any given number at least once in a set of 12 rolls of a d20 is 46%. This will not be true of any given set of rolls, but is the probability. Each other number similarly has a 46% chance. But these numbers can't be added; it's perfectly possible for 12 different numbers to show up in the 12 rolls. And that doesn't change the probability for any single number. PROBABILITY: If you roll a dice enough times all of the given numbers will eventually come up. There is NO accurate mathematical formula to represent this, it is all speculative. Basic probability represents this. As you increase the number of rolls, the chance of rolling any specific number approaches, but never reaches, 100%. As Roxlimn said; this represents the ridiculously unlikely, but possible, chance that you never roll a 1 in 2 million rolls. It could happen, but it's ridiculously unlikely. Blaine I thought you were educated, you say WOW and I have this to say. Some people are so ignorant that they keep their mouths shut, because they are aware of their ignorance. Then there are the ignorant ones that are so far gone that they are totally unaware of how ignorant they are. You need to decide which category you want to be in. I find the statement I placed in bold deliciously ironic. Perhaps you should take the time to learn something about probability theory, Yade? I'm a history student; I haven't done probability since my grade 11 statistics class. But it's fairly clear I, and others, know more than you do about it. I submit that you are the one who's "so far gone that they are totally unaware of how ignorant they are". FIND me a link to a math page that defends your mathematical opinions, and please... please let this be the end of the moronic math debate. They've been provided. Read them. And here's another; Clicky (http://www.peterwebb.co.uk/probability.htm#consecutives) Read down to "indepentent events", which is what this is. It even uses multiple dice throws as the example. It's looking for the odds of throwing a given number twice in two rolls, we're looking for the odds of not throwing a given number on 12 rolls. Insert those differences, we've got the 95% probability of not rolling a one, multiplied by itself 12 times. 0.95^12. Which gives us about 46%. Kindly educate yourself, Yade. Like you said; "there are the ignorant ones that are so far gone that they are totally unaware of how ignorant they are. You need to decide which category you want to be in." Exactly. Decide which category you want to be in; read some probability theory, or keeping claiming that your ignorance is somehow a proof. I note that others have posted even more statistical stuff while I wrote. I'll still reccommend the site I linked; it's "The Layman's Guide to Probability Theory", and is written to be easy to understand. There's still math, because probability theory is mathematical, but it's clearly written. Definitely easier for someone unused to the jargon.
Yade 10-30-04, 01:17 PM	Thanks for the link next time read it though. The rest of you should read it as well. Here is the link again that confirms my argument. http://www.peterwebb.co.uk/probability.htm#The%20law%20of%20large%2 0numbers Read the section on The law of large numbers and averages. A chance event is uninfluenced by the events which have gone before. If a true die has not shown 6 for 30 throws, the probability of a 6 is still 1/6 on the 31st throw. One wonders if this simple idea offends some human instinct, because it is not difficult to find gambling experts who will agree with all the above remarks, and will express them themselves in books and articles, only to advocate elsewhere the principle of 'stepping in when a corrective is due' There is no formula that can confirm "all y'alls" babble. And if you think that rolling a dice is not a chance event then you can defend your arguments, but I am pretty sure it is a chance event.
BlaineTog 10-30-04, 01:24 PM	Um... Yade? We know that. That is consistent with what we have been saying. It in no way contradicts us. We arn't talking about the probability of rolling a one on any particular die roll. We are talking about rolling a one during a set of die rolls. If what we've said so far can't convince you, nothing will. Although I highly suggest you read my previous post, as it pretty much prooves our method as sound.
Rialto 10-30-04, 03:24 PM	Just to add confusion to your arguments: rolling 12 times d20 is different from rolling 12d20; In the first case the rolls are independent (and so are the results), in the second case that is not so... :) Muhaha, delve deep enough into probability theory and you'll be confused about anything. However, what I grasped from Kolmogorov's definition of probability : Probability is a ratio of the measures of two sets: the set of all "desirable" outcomes, and the set of all "possible" outcomes. In our case: "desirable" = having at least one "1", possible = all the combinations = 20^12. "Desirable" = the union (ergo the sum of probalities) of the independent events A12,..., A1 where Ak denotes the event {"1" ocurring k times in 12 rolls}, and thus we may estimate the final probability of "1" showing in 12 consecutive (related) rolls. That I believe Thorak, fractal, and many others have estimated as being 46%. Since I am known to miscalculate, I will not try to reproduce their calculations...
Cacevius 10-30-04, 03:56 PM	Yade: //FIND me a link to a math page that defends your mathematical opinions, and please... please let this be the end of the moronic math debate.// Yade, please! A little respect and some countenance go a long way if you wish to be respected and not ridiculed yourself. The link was already provided to you, together with an instruction for use. Its here again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution Here the general formula and its explanation from the link: "In mathematics, the binomial distribution is a discrete probability distribution which describes the number of successes in a sequence of n independent yes/no experiments, each of which yielding success with probability p. ... In general, if the random variable X follows the binomial distribution with parameters n and p, we write X ~ B(n, p). The probability of getting exactly k successes is given by P[X=k] = (n choose k) * p^k * (1-p)^(n-k) where (n choose k) = n!/(k!(n-k)!) is the binomial coefficient "n choose k" (also denoted C(n, k)), whence the name of the distribution." I apply this formula now for you. In our case, we define success as a roll of 1 on a d20, with a probability of 5% or p=0.05. If we wish to know the probability of rolling twelve times with no 1 coming up, so with 0 successes. we put hence n=12 and k=0. So P[X=0] = (12 choose 0) * 0.05^0 * (1-0.05)^12 = 12!/(0!12!) * 1 * 0.95^12 = 0.95^12. So, I have shown to you the contested result by just applying a well known and well documented math formula, as you requested. Content? Take care, Cacevius
Snommelp 10-30-04, 06:39 PM	Sorry, Yade, but I'm gonna have to use your own quote against you. A chance event is uninfluenced by the events which have gone before. If a true die has not shown 6 for 30 throws, the probability of a 6 is still 1/6 on the 31st throw. One wonders if this simple idea offends some human instinct, because it is not difficult to find gambling experts who will agree with all the above remarks, and will express them themselves in books and articles, only to advocate elsewhere the principle of 'stepping in when a corrective is due' I believe I bolded the same section as you, yes? Notice, it says the probability is still 1/6 on the 31st throw . This is not the probability for the entire set, but for that single, 31st throw.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-30-04, 08:57 PM	Just to add confusion to your arguments: rolling 12 times d20 is different from rolling 12d20; In the first case the rolls are independent (and so are the results), in the second case that is not so. Why would that be? Rolling one d20 12 times is 12 independent rolls. Rolling 12 d20s once each is 12 independent rolls. "Two events are independent if the occurrence of one of the events gives us no information about whether or not the other event will occur; that is, the events have no influence on each other." (http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/steps/glossary/probability.html#indepevents) Knowing the results of the other 11 rolls tells me nothing about the 12th roll, whether they were rolled simultaneously or sequentially. Hence, the rolls are independent in both cases.
Nithendil 10-30-04, 09:01 PM	I believe the rolls are not independent becasue as soon as you roll a 1 you stop. Therefore the later rolls are dependent on the earlier ones.
BlaineTog 10-30-04, 09:13 PM	Knowing the results of the other 11 rolls tells me nothing about the 12th roll, whether they were rolled simultaneously or sequentially.As Nithendil said, knowing the results of the previous 11 rolls lets you know if a 12th roll is made.
Thorak 10-30-04, 11:59 PM	Exactly as Nithendil and Blainetog said; the rolls are interdependent because we're looking for a single roll of 1 in a set; the moment there's a one, we don't care about the rest. The probabilty, thus, is entirely interdependent of the previous rolls; you only make a 12th roll if the 11 previous rolls have been not-ones.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 12:06 AM	As Nithendil said, knowing the results of the previous 11 rolls lets you know if a 12th roll is made. Ahh, but that wasn''t the original statement: rolling 12 times d20 is different from rolling 12d20; In the first case the rolls are independent (and so are the results), in the second case that is not so. As I'm understanding the wording, this is "roll twelve d20 once" vs. "roll one d20 12 times". All 12 rolls are made each time, though---there's no indication of "stop once you get a 1". If you do indeed want to stop once you get a 1---as you would for saving throws---then you do indeed get conditional probabilities. That would be useful for figuring out the expected number of saving throws that will be needed before one is failed. However, using conditional probabilities is simply an unnecessarily complicated way to look at the chance that one---any one---of 12 saves will fail, since that and looking at the probability that 12 independent rolls will contain one or more 1s are provably equivalent ways to compute the chance.
Yade 10-31-04, 12:10 AM	I stand by my statement and because it is regarding probability and statistics there appears to be contradictions in even the professional world. Euclidean geometry is mathematically solid, the math of chance is not. Vaal was not planning on gambling with this life on the suggestion rolls. Which, IMO, was a wise choice. The searing light spell, maximized or not, made him an easy kill if he remained visible. His spell resistance gave him a small chance vs the spell and with a BAB of +8 I only needed a 3 ona d 20 to hit him witha touch AC of 11. Vaals plan was his best option and is exactly why I had the anti magic field and all of the dispels ready to go. If he was crazy enough to close in combat I hd the slay livings ready. His Fort Save was +6 which means that he would have had to roll an 18 or better to live. The circlet is 40 free points of damage CL ia 17 and there is no save so he would not have resisted it and the damage was a freebie. Searing light is a good spell, it is limited int hat it can only do 5d8 but it does not grant a save and vs. undead it is even better.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 12:37 AM	I stand by my statement and because it is regarding probability and statistics there appears to be contradictions in even the professional world. Name one.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 12:39 AM	I stand by my statement and because it is regarding probability and statistics there appears to be contradictions in even the professional world.Actually, pretty much every source has backed up the 100[1-(19/20)^12] formula. The searing light spell, maximized or not, made him an easy kill if he remained visible.Although that's a pretty gosh darn big "if," it would probably have been the death of this bard. Personally, I expected a higher Con; my last bard had comperable stats and had considerably more hit points (because I made a point of giving him a good Con). Vaals plan was his best option and is exactly why I had the anti magic field and all of the dispels ready to go.In his shoes, frankly I'd have had a wand of Summon Monster or two. That said, you would have been a dead man if you used Antimagic Field. He fires up Greater Invisibility (assuming he's prudunt enough to nab it) and pelts you to death with arrows. The circlet is 40 free points of damage CL ia 17 and there is no save so he would not have resisted it and the damage was a freebie.Yeah, but its not a one-hit-kill, meaning he's have a chance to go Invisible, at which point you are in serious trouble. Now Yade, level with us: surely you don't still think this fight was inevitably going to you, do you? You must see that Evanius had at least a darned good chance against you. No offense to Vaal, but he wasn't even particularly well built (I, for one, would have done magic items completelly differently as well as a mildly different spell selection. Con would have been a bigger priority, as would Dex, and Cha would have been lower, considering how it's not really based off directly offensive magic. I'd frankly rather have a Cloak of Resistance, for this character).
Melpomene 10-31-04, 12:46 AM	Sorry, I'm just interjecting here, but.... Bard with requiem + Evil cleric = two charicter team that utilizes bard skills.
Yade 10-31-04, 01:49 AM	Yeah I had a very good chance of winning this fight. Remember that I too could be invisible, the difference is that I could see him and not the reverse. if he had attemted to execute his plan I would have cast true seeing and fly. With my concentration being so high there was very little chance that he could have stopped that. Then, while flying I would have gone invisible. After that it would have been pretty easy to get near him and slay living or harm.
Snommelp 10-31-04, 01:11 AM	I'd say that combat between two flying, invisible opponents would have been less than thrilling. With the range limitation on true seeing, and no ceiling, this fight could have gone on a long, long time.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 01:39 AM	Yeah I had a very good chance of winning this fight. Remember that I too could be invisible, the difference is that I could see him and not the reverse. Keep in mind, "See Invisiblility" is a Bard spell and not a Cleric spell, and it has no range limitation (unlike "True Seeing"). If the Bard had that spell---or a cheap scroll of it---he'd be able to see the Cleric without being seen, and either wait out the shorter duration of "True Seeing" or attack from beyond detection range.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 01:41 AM	This is my first post, and I am very new to D&D, I would just like to say that after reading all of this math info on this thread I am going to take a trip to Vegas and win big. Because since math is FACT, with no if, ands, or buts I am going to win. Win Big. Thanx
Snommelp 10-31-04, 01:49 AM	This is my first post, and I am very new to D&D, I would just like to say that after reading all of this math info on this thread I am going to take a trip to Vegas and win big. Because since math is FACT, with no if, ands, or buts I am going to win. Win Big. Thanx Except that in Vegas, the odds are always against you. And, even though the odds will always eventually approach 100%, for some things (specifically Vegas-style games) that "eventually" becomes a long enough time that you lose more money than you make. Back on topic, if the bard attacked while invisible, even if he used a rnaged attack, he would run the risk of giving away his position. Better hope that he's got fly-by attack (or an equivalent feat).
Nithendil 10-31-04, 01:55 AM	Grease will drop anyone who is flying.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 02:00 AM	so rolling dice in a craps game in Vegas is a Mathmatical uncertainty and rolling dice in D&D is?
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 02:10 AM	Because since math is FACT, with no if, ands, or buts I am going to win. You misunderstand, in two key ways: 1) Simply because math deals with facts doesn't mean those facts are in your favour. - Most Vegas games give you a less-than-even chance of winning. 2) Simply because something is a fact doesn't mean it can't have an "if", "and", or "but" in it. - For example, consider the fact: "If X is a positive integer and X is greater than 4 but X is less than 6, then X is 5." It's math. It's a fact. It has an "if", an "and", and a "but". so rolling dice in a craps game in Vegas is a Mathmatical uncertainty and rolling dice in D&D is? No, they're both events with well-defined and well-understood probability distributions. The Vegas casinos know exactly what the odds are of rolling any particular value---or sequence of values---in craps. If they didn't know, they wouldn't play the game, since they might end up losing most of the time (which is bad business).
angryman 10-31-04, 02:11 AM	I don't think you can cast Grease on someone who is flying. Isn't it an area-effect conjuration? So you can't cast it mid-air. And even if you could, you'd just make a flying person greasy and grapple-resistant. You can't "fall prone" when you're flying. Also, yes, all those tricky bard buffs are outdone by True Sight. Movement is similar if they're both flying. What level are they? A quick Destruction will end the Bard's day, no doubt about it, if the Cleric can get within range.
boytbpc 10-31-04, 02:21 AM	Yade, I think I understand why you are confused on the math side of this topic. You are correct in saying that you have a 5% chance of rolling x on any one d20 roll. That is not what everyone else is talking about. They are saying you have a 46% (quoting form memory, to lazy to look on slow Internet connection) chance of rolling at least one x on 12 rolls of a d20. Now, if you still disagree please go to the statistics department of your local university and ask any Stats 101 prof this question and find out the answer for yourself. Boytbpc
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 02:22 AM	Anyone else notice a few odd things about DomYorio? Join Date: 10-31-04 - i.e., in the last 2 hours His only two posts are to this thread. He immediately started talking about "Vegas" and "craps", exactly like Yade had been a few pages back in the thread. He felt the need to inform everyone that "he's very new", but apparently has no interest in D&D, just in this math discussion. He was online at the same time as Yade (first post: 1:41am; Yade's most recent post timestamp: 1:49am). What a...remarkable coincidence.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 02:23 AM	Yeah I had a very good chance of winning this fight. Remember that I too could be invisible, the difference is that I could see him and not the reverse.Actually, he could see you as well. Bards have See Invisiblity. Of course, Evanius doesn't (looking back). Wow. That was a major oversight. See invisiblity is practically required. :looloo: if he had attemted to execute his plan I would have cast true seeing and fly.True Seeing has limited range. What's more, you didn't post your spell list.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 02:23 AM	probability is the key word. So unless probability=fact then Math and all of its beauty is perfect. Fact? :confused:
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 02:27 AM	probability is the key word. So unless probability=fact then Math and all of its beauty is perfect. Fact? :confused:This is completelly nonsensicle. Probability is the likelyhood that something will occur thus. It's not a definite thing, to be sure. We arn't saying that its impossible to not roll a 1 if you roll 1000000000d20. We are only saying that the probability of such a thing is incredibally low.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 02:31 AM	thank you. I wasnt trying to start an argument I just wanted someone to say exactly what you said. Cheers
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-31-04, 02:34 AM	probability is the key word. So unless probability=fact then Math and all of its beauty is perfect. Fact? :confused: Oh, indeed, probabilities are facts: - it is a fact that the probability of a fair coin landing heads is 50% - it is a fact that the probability of at least one of two fair coins landing heads is 75% - it is a fact that the probability of at least one of N fair coins landing heads is 1-(0.5)^N (for N > 0) The probability of an event can certainly be known as a fact. The outcome of a particular random event can not be known in advance, but it can be predicted based on the fact of its probability distribution. Fortunately, when talking about your Cleric failing his Will save and getting his butt kicked by the Bard, probability---not outcome of any specific roll---is exactly what we're looking for.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 02:37 AM	My cleric?
m00 10-31-04, 02:41 AM	This is my first post, and I am very new to D&D, I would just like to say that after reading all of this math info on this thread I am going to take a trip to Vegas and win big. Because since math is FACT, with no if, ands, or buts I am going to win. Win Big. Thanx Not to add fuel to the hilarious math debate, but I watched a program on the history channel a number of months ago that was actually about a team of math students from MIT (translation: people who are better than all of us put together at math) who did just this. Their (actual) understanding of statistics allowed them to rob a lot of money from the casinos (it might have been in Atlantic City now that I think of it). Not just counting cards either, actually playing the probabilities of the game against the house.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 02:51 AM	"Oh, indeed, probabilities are facts" If this is so you can explain to me how my life from birth till death will happen with Math. All probabilities, I meant Facts, will guide me through life. What a boring life. No free will, no luck, no chance, no maybe, no fun, just Mathmatical Facts to everything that is ever done or to be done. Im going to to shoot myself now.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 02:57 AM	thank you. I wasnt trying to start an argument I just wanted someone to say exactly what you said. CheersAs I read it, you are trying to imply I said something I didn't. The actual probability is a fact. As DCB said, it is a fact that the chances of rolling specifically a 1 or a 2 on a perfect d2 is exactly 50%. What is not a fact would be the statement "You literally must roll a 2 eventually." Which isn't true. Technically, you can keep rolling it forever and keep getting a 1. It's possible. Not very likely (it actually approches 0%), but possible. If this is so you can explain to me how my life from birth till death will happen with Math. All probabilities, I meant Facts, will guide me through life. What a boring life. No free will, no luck, no chance, no maybe, no fun, just Mathmatical Facts to everything that is ever done or to be done.Well, thats what Material Determinism is all about. I'm not saying its true or nor, but there are some people who believe it. Im going to to shoot myself now.Don't even joke about things like that. PS: Guys, lay off. Suspicious or not, it's bad form to accuse someone of sock-puppetry. Report it to the WizOs if you must (they can check IPs), but don't start up a witch hunt.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 03:04 AM	I don't know who you think I am, but I have never posted on this board before. Send me an email if you like and I will feel free to give you my name, address, phone number what ever it is that you need proof of. I have just moved back to the United States. I am getting back to playing RPG's with a few friends that I have met in my new home town, and I just thought since I am really new to D&D that I would get on this board and just have a look as to what people talk about. I am no math wiz, and I do not claim to be. I enjoy using my imagination and just having fun. This math thing that is going on in this post is great for those who live life by it. I am not one of them. I thought the whole Bard things was very funny. I am most likely going to be a bard as my first ever character in D&D. I think its a pretty funny character to be. I'm a team player and the bard seems to be just that. Give me some slack! You were all new once.
m00 10-31-04, 03:12 AM	PS: Guys, lay off. Suspicious or not, it's bad form to accuse someone of sock-puppetry. Report it to the WizOs if you must (they can check IPs), but don't start up a witch hunt. Yes, that was a rather uncalled-for thing of me to do. Going to edit it out of my post. Sorry about that.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 03:12 AM	This math thing that is going on in this post is great for those who live life by it. I am not one of them.This math thing has gone on for far, far longer than it should have. The answer is 46%. It has been corroborated by many sources and never refuted. I've said it earlier, but this really has to stop. So: S T O P ! No more math. Capishe? If Yade still doesn't get it and he doesn't want to ask/email a probabilities proferssor or something, FINE. It's wholley immaterial. I thought the whole Bard things was very funny. I am most likely going to be a bard as my first ever character in D&D. I think its a pretty funny character to be. I'm a team player and the bard seems to be just that.Aye, that they are. Give me some slack! You were all new once.Don't worry about it. This thread has been rather heated and your post seemed a little similar to some by Yade earlier. Some people jump to conclusions.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 03:12 AM	Sorry about the bad joke of shooting myself. I am just a believer in free will of everything. Putting an equation to anything takes the fun out of chance and luck. If I just randomly picked all of the numbers in the Lotto,and Won, I would fill like that was something within "ME" that helped that to happen. Nothing is completely predictable and there is no such thing as perfection.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 03:18 AM	Putting an equation to anything takes the fun out of chance and luck.Well, the equation is only describing the underlying pattern. It's not changing anything. Nothing is completely predictable and there is no such thing as perfection.Technically, Math is perfect and predictable. 1 + 1 will always and forever equal 2 (unless we change number sets, but that's something else altogether). As for nothing being perfectly predicatable... well, we're arguing about that in Philosophy on Tuesday. I'll get back to you about the verdict. ;) I'm not trying to be argumentative here. If it looks that way, sorry.
fractal 10-31-04, 03:28 AM	I believe the rolls are not independent becasue as soon as you roll a 1 you stop. Therefore the later rolls are dependent on the earlier ones. Well, this is actually an interesting way to look at it. However, the result (in terms of whether or not a 1 is rolled) is exactly the same. In either case, there is a 54% chance of not rolling a 1 in all 12 rolls, and therefore, a 46% chance of rolling at least one 1. If you do stop as soon as you get a 1, however, then you will get exactly one 1 46% of the time, and exactly zero 1's 54% of the time. Thus, your average number of 1's is .46. If you don't stop as soon as you get a 1, then you might possibly roll additional 1's, and your average number of 1's is 12*(.05) = .60. Thus, your conditional model (ceasing to roll as soon as a 1 comes up) actually is an example related to BlaineTog's earlier question. This is a case where the average number of 1's and the chance of getting at least one 1 are equal.
fractal 10-31-04, 03:34 AM	I am just a believer in free will of everything. Putting an equation to anything takes the fun out of chance and luck. Personally, I would hesitate to ascribe free will to dice. For one thing, it would seem to devalue our own free will (if we have it). I don't think putting equations to things takes the fun out of chance and luck. However, it certainly does add the fun of putting equations to things! Understanding how and why things work is one of the great joys of being human. :)
DomYorio 10-31-04, 03:52 AM	If you like that kind of thing, its your belief. Its just not something I find exciting. Now, mystery is exciting. Not knowing, is exciting but scary at times. I cant argue with personal beliefs but I do believe in luck and ones way to magically will the dice to do what you wish them to do with out thinking anything other than "Give me that 20!" When you just think it and it happens. That is exciting. No probabilities, no equations, no facts, no math just pure faith in your own will and luck. Life is to short to dissect into bits and pieces of information.
Yade 10-31-04, 10:18 AM	Anyone else notice a few odd things about DomYorio? Join Date: 10-31-04 - i.e., in the last 2 hours His only two posts are to this thread. He immediately started talking about "Vegas" and "craps", exactly like Yade had been a few pages back in the thread. He felt the need to inform everyone that "he's very new", but apparently has no interest in D&D, just in this math discussion. He was online at the same time as Yade (first post: 1:41am; Yade's most recent post timestamp: 1:49am). What a...remarkable coincidence. Dire I am not using two login names and if you feel I am then you can go report it to a moderator and let them clear it up. UGH, what will I be accused of next. (If I was using two logins they would probably agree and be consistent with my beliefs) I did in fact talk to a man at ASU about the math issue and he said that the argument that we are having is consistent with the one in the real world. Many people do not believe that probability and chance are predictable, statisticians do... leave it at that.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 11:36 AM	Many people do not believe that probability and chance are predictable, statisticians do...So many people who haven't studied the issue in depth don't believe it, but experts do? Clearly what we have here is a case where no, the earth is in fact flat despite evidence to the contrary.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 11:51 AM	Thanks Yade for pointing out something that I never saw. As for Bonobo..... What the ____ is your problem mate. You have no right to suggest anything like that, and I hope you burn for it. As I SAID in a previous post. I am thinking of being a bard as MY FIRST EVER CHARACTER! I saw this thread, Decided to have a look as to why bards are useless, and found it amusing. It took a long time to read 17 pages worth of posts. So, why would I be posting anywhere else besides on this post, so back off Sherlock. You _____ idiot. Thanks for making me feel welcome. Your a real winner.
Yade 10-31-04, 12:02 PM	So many people who haven't studied the issue in depth don't believe it, but experts do? Clearly what we have here is a case where no, the earth is in fact flat despite evidence to the contrary. If you think it's flat then go ahead. I was not talking about a regular person he is the head of the math department here at ASU, clearly qualifies as an expert. Welcome Dom, watch out for these guys, vultures would be friendlier.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 12:18 PM	and I hope you burn for it. ... You _____ idiot.Er. Technically speaking, you arn't allowed to say that on these boards (linky to the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc)). I only tell you so that you learn sooner rather than later what the WizOs (adminastrators) will and will not whack you for. Some people have been on the boards for years before learning. ;) PS: we have a smiley for "_____". It's called ": censored :", but without the spaces or quotation marks. It looks like this-> :censored: Take a look on the right side of the Reply box to see a bunch of smileys an a button that says "more." If you think it's flat then go ahead. I was not talking about a regular person he is the head of the math department here at ASU, clearly qualifies as an expert.So he was the one who thinks you can't model situations with math? Because that's not what it sounded like from the wya you worded it. Welcome Dom, watch out for these guys, vultures would be friendlier.Only in incediary topics. I don't know where the fuzzy Catablopeds (or however you spell his name) is, but I divine that he will be locking this thread very soon.
xann 10-31-04, 12:30 PM	DM'ed a game a while back one player was a bard he was the back bone to the campaign, he was the medic, the thinker, partial wiz., generally the go-to guy. WARNING- the bard can be a bit boring if your a hack-an-slash gamer, but a good player will make the most of a cha. that can cast spells, fight a bit, be a moral booster, thief, and cleric. nuff said?
Snommelp 10-31-04, 01:38 PM	Now that we're finally off of the math tangent, I'd like to go back to a statement that Yade made earlier (a long time ago, like before Vaal's challenge). Yade, I believe you said something to the extent of "bards shouldn't get diplomatic skills because musicians are reclusive." I recently went to your website (through your profile) and noticed that you are a trombonist, like myself. So, I am going to try to argue my point in a way that a fellow musician would understand. You have probably run into one of those people who is a great musician but never practices. Almost every musician knows at least one, and most musicians dislike them to an extreme bordering on hate. It is that kind of musician that is a bard, not the rest of us. The violinist who makes concertmaster by sightreading the audition is a bard, the trombonist who practices three hours a day to make third chair is not. Or, for a non-musical example (since Vaal's bard was not a musician), Jay Leno would be a bard. Conan O'Brian would be a bard. Both are very charismatic, both have great people skills.
Armoured Priest 10-31-04, 03:27 PM	Hey all...as it was interesting, I've been keeping an eye on the goings on in this thread since it began. After Snommelp mentioned that Yade was a trombone player (as mentioned through Yade's website) it became clear to me where Yade's comment that musicians are reclusive came from. Having completed a university music program of my own (I'm also a trombone player, by the way) I know from experience that university music students are an extremly reclusive lot (to put a D&D spin on it fpr those who don't know: elves hiding away in there forest, really only having contact with other elves). This mainly stems from the fact musicians studying at the university level have decptively huge work loads (no time for anything else). Also, I guarentee that no-one works harder for 1-2 credit courses. (music majors put in the same amount of out of class time into their 1 and 2 credit courses as most others put into their 3-5 crdit couses (of similar class level: freshman level vs freshman level, senior level vs. senior level, graduate vs graduate, ect...). In my mind, Bards are more like a rock star, then an educated musician (although these two are not mutaully exclusive). In that bards have just as much stage presence as talent (I'm speaking in general terms, there are plenty of rockers and pop stars who honestly have no buisness being in the music buisness. In the interest of keeping flames and off-topic stuff down I won't mention any names). The chaos that ensued when the Beatles played live, for example, could be equated to "Bardic Music Effects." As for bards being useless, in my experience they are not, far from it in fact. It does, however, take a certain mind set to play one. Unless, you've done some specific class building and min/maxing in a flashy area, the bard is not a mechanically flashy character. In other words, don't expect to do 400 points of damage to a single enemy in one round (like the character I saw this past weekend), summon giant boulders to appear and grind your enemies into the ground, or call upon the gods to smite your enemies into oblivion. Still, bards aren't bad fighters, or spelcasters, or rogues. They are good at rounding out larger parties (by helping to fill in where needed {versatility}), they are good in parties of less then four for the same reason. In fact, with a reasonably good spell selection and items selection they are good solo charecters. One of my favorite bard(w/PrC) 20 level builds is my rog 3/brd 7/arcane trickster 10. (Keep in mind that I never play a straight class anything unless forced to do so...I so love to multiclass. I don't necesarily PrC everything). His healing spells keep him alive, His sneak attack and Arcane strike (CW feat) allows him to hit pretty hard. Invisibility and skills help him sneak, he's got a ton of languages for infiltration and spy purposes, UMD helps with utility spells he doesn't have, he's goos at talking his way out of problems, has an item (homebrew admittedly) that he can UMD to turn limited numbers of undead. There are many other things he can do. One of his favorites, if he's forced to stand and fight in melee, is to use a CL 15 Righteous Might scroll to make himself beefier. Like with the infamous "sorcerer debates" it truly takes a different mindset in order to make the bard truly shine as opposed to be being just average. Its also understandable that different people's experiences (not specifically experience) with bards will differ, coloring their perceptions (bards can honestly be extremly fun to play). Finally, bards certainly aren't for everyone. Hack-n-slasher players don't do well playing them, and people used to playing "blaster" casters, or at least casters with 9th level spells can often feel less then spectacular. Still, if one is wanting to work with a little cunning and subtelty, and a lot of versitility and spice then bards might just have what you need.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 03:46 PM	wow....I am also a Trombone player, and working on my Master's at the moment. I have been playing and finishing up a degree in Western Australia for the last 3 1/2 years. I am now back in the States. I never would have guessed that I would start playing D&D and post on a board and find that I have already found Three other people who are trombone players. We should post a thread asking how many people playing D&D are trombone players. Could be interesting.
Nithendil 10-31-04, 03:55 PM	"I don't think you can cast Grease on someone who is flying. Isn't it an area-effect conjuration? So you can't cast it mid-air. And even if you could, you'd just make a flying person greasy and grapple-resistant. You can't "fall prone" when you're flying. Also, yes, all those tricky bard buffs are outdone by True Sight. Movement is similar if they're both flying. What level are they? A quick Destruction will end the Bard's day, no doubt about it, if the Cleric can get within range." Grease Conjuration (Creation) Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. Material Component: A bit of pork rind or butter. I'm an ASU alumni, and I have less than favorable things to say about their math department. Go to the psychology department and talk to a statistics professor. I'll look up a name for you, but he teaches advanced statistics and is a bald guy. Very intelligent. The ASU website is down for now, but I'll try to get a name for you later.
Incenjucar 10-31-04, 03:59 PM	wow....I am also a Trombone player, and working on my Master's at the moment. I have been playing and finishing up a degree in Western Australia for the last 3 1/2 years. I am now back in the States. I never would have guessed that I would start playing D&D and post on a board and find that I have already found Three other people who are trombone players. We should post a thread asking how many people playing D&D are trombone players. Could be interesting. While it's not me, nor is it trombone, I know two band members over here at CSU Fresno that used to play 3e (when they were in high school, last year). I have a feeling that being willing to do a less popular thing, in general, makes you more open to other less popular things.
DomYorio 10-31-04, 04:17 PM	sure....................the trombone thing just seemed interesting. The post was in good fun. Not to be taken to seriously. If someone did it fine if not fine. Who cares. Just posting on a board my thoughts of an ongoing conversation. I must have misunderstood what the purpose of this board is for. Wow.............
Carpe DM 10-31-04, 04:36 PM	Being someone who knows two of the three trombone players on this thread in real life, I just made a very interesting observation. A bard is to an adventuring party what a trombone player is to an orchestra. Now, I intend no offense by that statement. I mean only to say that a bard is certainly defined as a support character (and before anyone jumps down my throat, the only absolute in the universe is that there are no absolutes in the universe...I'm sure some people have managed to play a bard who isn't support, but I'm also sure we all agree that support position is their usual, cookie cutter role). Likewise, in a general circumstance, the trombone is a support position within an orchestra. Could an orchestra get by without a trombone? Probably. It doesn't have an altogether solely unique sound to it - there are other wind instruments out there. But... The addition of a trombone to a musical peice, like the addition of any other type of musical instrument, produces sound. Different sound, but sound nevertheless, and it is the mixture and harmony of those sounds that produces music. Much like character classes...a party is not a series of individuals, a party is a group that (ideally anyway, if you don't have inter-party fighting) works together as a team. Each class has it's own "sound" in the "music" of the roleplay. Sometimes the "sounds" are not entirely distinctive or unique, but add to the overall effect anyway. This is, of course, with reference to a large party. In a small party...consider a different kind of music. Imagine a piano peice, played solo. Now imagine if you took that same piano peice and added a trombone. The trombone is now a very noticeable sound, and adds an entirely different element to the musical peice. The same could be said of an individual in a smaller roleplay group. Each person's "sound" is heard more clearly. Now, I'm not saying I like bards either. I could care less if people like them or not, I find the idea of producing magical effects from music, poetry, and so forth to be silly. While such things may be engrossing, it's just not my thing to have it cause magical effects. Doesn't mean I think anybody's wrong or the game is broken, just means I don't let people play a bard in my games. I also typically don't allow sorcerors, either, because I dislike the concept of magic coming from your force of will and no studying at all. To me, if you can produce magic effects from sheer willpower, you're not a mage, you're a psychic...and for that there's the Psion. I just thought I'd come on here and play devil's advocate for Yade, since I know him in real life. He's probably going to come over to my apartment now and smack me upside the head. =)
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 04:41 PM	Doesn't mean I think anybody's wrong or the game is broken, just means I don't let people play a bard in my games.You realize, of course, that these two things (edit: thinking a class is wrong/broken and banning it) are virtually identicle, right? I also typically don't allow sorcerors, either, because I dislike the concept of magic coming from your force of will and no studying at all.Ah. That explains it. We have different philosophies of DMing. When I DM, I allow all classes unless they are overpowered, because it's not my job to force the players to play the way I want them to play. Just my take, though. To me, if you can produce magic effects from sheer willpower, you're not a mage, you're a psychic...and for that there's the Psion.Er. The Psion's power comes from study as well. That's why it's Int-based.
Carpe DM 10-31-04, 04:58 PM	Blaine, I don't think the concepts are identical at all, actually. But I will clarify for you since it appears my statement was not concise. As a class, and with regards to class balance and features, the bard and sorceror classes are not in any way broken or imbalanced. I however do not like them as concepts, so I do not incorporate them into my games. As for your second comment (which did a sly job of taking a jab at my DM'ing techniques, but I am not offended), I agree with you that I disallow overpowered things in my games. I didn't at any time, however, say that I feel bards or sorcerors are overpowered in any way. I merely said I do not use them in my games. Nor am I forcing my players to play the way I want them to play...in fact, I afford the players alot of freedom in my games. I have created a number of character classes that I do allow instead of the bard and sorceror, that better fit with my setting ideas. I don't use pre-created settings like Forgotten Realms because I don't like the idea that I am "restricting" someone. If it's my own setting, and I say that there aren't any bards or sorcerors, that isn't a restriction. It's merely a parameter of the setting, no different than saying "plasma rifles don't exist" or "there is no church of Helm". I agree, however, that if I were playing Forgotten Realms, it would be restrictive of me to bar a player from being a bard or a sorceror. So your point, while valid if I were playing a precreated setting, is invalid because I am not. With regards to the psion, I regret that I have yet to read the new psionics book. My recollection from the 3rd edition original book, however, is that their prime requisite was whichever ability score was highest. If that has changed, then it has changed. But I also was not referencing an ability score at all in my original statement. I said that the psychic powers come from a force of will. I would personally find it more feasible that psychic powers are a natural manifestation (a genetic mutation of sorts, such as you'd find in X-men), rather than something you learn how to do from runes and diagrams. I would however agree that if you sought out someone who can already do it, it would be possible to "study" it under them, but only if you were a person who even had the potential to utilize that kind of power. But that is just my take on it. I apologize if my flavor of the class is different than yours. But that is why kool-aid is a dime a package, my friend...if my flavor doesn't fit your palette there are many others you can sample for under a dollar. =)
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 06:00 PM	I however do not like them as concepts, so I do not incorporate them into my games.Yes, and my point is that I don't see the game as the "DM's game." (which did a sly job of taking a jab at my DM'ing techniques, but I am not offended)Not what I was going for at all. I disgree with them for games in which I play, but if it works well for you and your players, then who am I to complain? I didn't at any time, however, say that I feel bards or sorcerors are overpowered in any way. I merely said I do not use them in my games.Yes, I know. You ban them on flavor reasons. What I'm saying is that I do not personally like that sort of ban. That's all. With regards to the psion, I regret that I have yet to read the new psionics book.Oh ho ho! You are in for a treat, my friend. PS: they've put the 3.5 Psionics Handbook (otherwise known as the XPH) into the SRD. I would personally find it more feasible that psychic powers are a natural manifestation (a genetic mutation of sorts, such as you'd find in X-men), rather than something you learn how to do from runes and diagrams.Well, they actually have added a new class that (IMO) better fits the "force of will" idea: Wilder. Uses Cha. d6 HD, 3/4 BaB. 4+Int skill points (IIRC), and a few other cool things. Anyway, check it out. New psionics book = :ayyyy!:
Thermanshs 10-31-04, 06:15 PM	Well...since I missed a great deal of discussion in here I'm just gonna ask what happened with that duel. Was it cancelled? (the Wizo removed the sticky :()
Snommelp 10-31-04, 06:45 PM	I find the idea of producing magical effects from music, poetry, and so forth to be silly. And I find the idea of producing magical effects by waving your hands and muttering gibberish to be silly. Doesn't mean I don't allow wizards or sorcerers. I liked the analogy of "a bard is like a trombonist." It's really true; trombonists are usually looked down on because we have a slide, which makes it hard to sound like the bass trumpet everyone wants us to be. However, once there's a piece that requires the trombones to glissando (aka slide from one note to another) everyone loves the trombones unique slide. To translate this analogy: wait until someone's bardic music saves your butt, then see if you still dislike bards.
Sensei Gith 10-31-04, 07:00 PM	Bassoons pwn trombones.
Armoured Priest 10-31-04, 08:24 PM	You just have slide envy, Sensei Gith. Afterall the design of the trombone hasn't changed in centuries. I guess they realized they had found the perfect design ;)
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 08:58 PM	You just have slide envy, Sensei Gith.:twitch:
Snommelp 10-31-04, 09:46 PM	You just have slide envy, Sensei Gith. Afterall the design of the trombone hasn't changed in centuries. I guess they realized they had found the perfect design ;) Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had to point something out. You know how harps are always used to portray heaven? Well, back in like the Romantic period trombones were used to portray hell. That's right, ladies and gents. We trombonists are demons!
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-31-04, 09:48 PM	Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had to point something out. You know how harps are always used to portray heaven? Well, back in like the Romantic period trombones were used to portray hell. That's right, ladies and gents. We trombonists are demons! That's only appropriate, I suppose. This being "satan's game" and all. :D
Armoured Priest 10-31-04, 10:38 PM	Another thing...in one of the Lutheran (german) translations of the Bible the trumpets used by angels to sound the openings of the seven seals in Revelations was translated as trombone. :devil: :angel:
zudbash 10-31-04, 11:29 PM	I stand by my statement and because it is regarding probability and statistics there appears to be contradictions in even the professional world. Euclidean geometry is mathematically solid, the math of chance is not. Vaal was not planning on gambling with this life on the suggestion rolls. Which, IMO, was a wise choice. The searing light spell, maximized or not, made him an easy kill if he remained visible. His spell resistance gave him a small chance vs the spell and with a BAB of +8 I only needed a 3 ona d 20 to hit him witha touch AC of 11. Vaals plan was his best option and is exactly why I had the anti magic field and all of the dispels ready to go. If he was crazy enough to close in combat I hd the slay livings ready. His Fort Save was +6 which means that he would have had to roll an 18 or better to live. You seem to be implying that rolling a 3 or higher is fairly probable, but rolling an 18 or higher is fairly improbable. Most of us would agree with you--given a reasonably fair die, basic probability theory would state that there is a 90% chance of 3 or higher, but only a 15% chance of 18 or higher. Of course, using basic probability theory we could go further and determine, for example, the probability of getting at least one roll of 18 or higher in 12 attempts, or whatever we wished to compute. The formula for this was given on this thread many times before. However, you have previously indicated that determining such probabilities was impossible. Using this reasoning, it is then irrelevant what the bard's fort save modifier is. Since it is impossible to know what the probability of the bard making his saving throw (or at least estimating it fairly precisely), it doesn't matter what the modifier is. For all we know, the bard may have a better chance of making a fort save than the cleric, despite the cleric having the better modifier. Note that I'm not saying that the bard may merely get lucky and make a save, but that, according to your reasoning, the bard may actually have a very high probability of making his fort saves despite his low modifier. What I'm trying to say is that, like it or not, you are already using and believe in the basics of probability theory. The formula others have given is just more of the same.
Carpe DM 10-31-04, 11:31 PM	Blaine, Forgive the shoddy use of quotes, but I'm not precisely a bard at using these boards (in other words I know how to do a few things, but I haven't dabbled in everything yet), so I don't know how to make a proper quote. So I'll blindly poke at things and hope it turns out half useful. Yes, and my point is that I don't see the game as the "DM's game." ...... You ban them on flavor reasons. What I'm saying is that I do not personally like that sort of ban. That's all. I don't see it as the DM's game either. I see it as everyone in the group's game...and the DM is a part of the group. That means everyone gets to make decisions, within the realm of what they will be doing in the game. The DM decides the setting, including what things exist within the game world that will be used. The DM also decides how the game is going to begin. The players make their characters, and that's the way the game goes. But I'm sure I'm telling you what you already know, if your plentiful posts on this thread are any indication of your experience with roleplaying. =) But, can you honestly say you run your games no-holds-barred? If a player wants to be a chaotic evil drow cleric of Lloth (or possibly Lolth...eh. How often do I ever have to spell her name? Sheesh), and the rest of the party are lawful good worshippers of Tyr, you can't honestly tell me that would fit within the Forgotten Realms setting (without a seriously wierd situation in place). Surely you would tell that player they couldn't be a drow, because the campaign you have in mind is first of all not an underdark campaign, and secondly, it's a campaign for good guys. Or, you might say "Okay, go for it" and then he dies 5 minutes into the gaming, and has to make a new character, in which case you basically just restricted him from being that character anyway. What I'm longwindedly (pardon me on that, by the way) trying to say is, everyone plays with at least a few limitations in place for flavor of the game, or to keep a story running smoothly how the DM has in mind. Just because I might do it in different areas than you might doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the way I do it...so, Mr. Elitist Hunter, don't be so elitist at me over it. =) Oh ho ho! You are in for a treat, my friend. PS: they've put the 3.5 Psionics Handbook (otherwise known as the XPH) into the SRD. ..... Well, they actually have added a new class that (IMO) better fits the "force of will" idea: Wilder. Uses Cha. d6 HD, 3/4 BaB. 4+Int skill points (IIRC), and a few other cool things. I'll have to look it up sometime, I suppose. Heh...the Wilder. I'd give bonus XP if someone played a Wilder named Gene. Ha ha...get it? Gene Wilder. Okay, that was stupid. I take a d6 of damage for making an awful pun! (before you ask - no, I don't really do that in game. LOL It's a joke we came up with one time, D&D gods punishing players who make horrible puns).
Snommelp 10-31-04, 11:50 PM	If a player wants to be a chaotic evil drow cleric of Lloth (or possibly Lolth...eh. How often do I ever have to spell her name? Sheesh), and the rest of the party are lawful good worshippers of Tyr, you can't honestly tell me that would fit within the Forgotten Realms setting (without a seriously wierd situation in place). Surely you would tell that player they couldn't be a drow, because the campaign you have in mind is first of all not an underdark campaign, and secondly, it's a campaign for good guys. Or, you might say "Okay, go for it" and then he dies 5 minutes into the gaming, and has to make a new character, in which case you basically just restricted him from being that character anyway. Ah, but if the other players kill the CE drow cleric of Lolth, then it is the entire group deciding against that option, not just the DM. Now, if your players all agree that there shouldn't be bards or sorcerers, then that's fine. But if they're secretly grumbling about it (which, while unlikely, is a possibility: look at all the posts where people say they hate their group but won't leave!) then you should reconsider your ban.
Carpe DM 11-01-04, 12:26 AM	Snommelp, Ah, but if the other players kill the CE drow cleric of Lolth, then it is the entire group deciding against that option, not just the DM. Now, if your players all agree that there shouldn't be bards or sorcerers, then that's fine. But if they're secretly grumbling about it (which, while unlikely, is a possibility: look at all the posts where people say they hate their group but won't leave!) then you should reconsider your ban. I didn't say the players killed him. =) They're lawful good - they would be unlikely to murder him outright at the beginning of the game. The drow is instead killed by the 24 other people in the tavern where they party begins. Hence, the DM effectively saying he couldn't play that character. As for the players...well, aside from the obvious, which is that there are probably at least a thousand or more D&D players in the city where I live that could potentially replace a player who left because of something so absurd...I might add that I never take away without giving back. There are no bards or sorcerors...but in the regular game there are no classes called Summoner, Necromancer, Arcanist, Sage, Merchant, and others, at least not as core classes. And in all honesty, if someone is so inflexible and so uncreative as to say "All I want to play ever in any D&D game is a sorceror and if I can't be a sorceror in your group then I'm leaving", well, then...bye!
Snommelp 11-01-04, 12:43 AM	I didn't say the players killed him. =) They're lawful good - they would be unlikely to murder him outright at the beginning of the game. The drow is instead killed by the 24 other people in the tavern where they party begins. Hence, the DM effectively saying he couldn't play that character. For me, that's not the DM saying that the character can't be played, that's the DM saying "if you're gonna play a race hated by every surface race, then cover your face next time." And it's not a long shot to say drow are hated by all surface races, since almost every publication says that they are and unless the DM house-rules otherwise the player should know this.
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 12:52 AM	c DM, The only problems with your analogy are: 1) Lloth is not in the core rulebook 2) Drow are not core races 3) having an LA means drow couldn't start out as a level 1 character (most of my groups start at level one, and move up from there) 4) He didn't say no-holds-barred He just allowed core rules. A LA race is a variant in the DMG. What you're suggesting is comparable to saying, "No, you can't worshipp Pelor, 'casue I hate christians" or "No, you can't worshipp Obad-hai, cause witches are evil." If I can't get power attack as a fighter, or combat expertise (fighters aren't smart, you can't take that feat) then I would feel like something was lacking.
DomYorio 11-01-04, 01:55 AM	For all of you guys, with a since of humor, you should go and check out the Funny Bard Kits thread. It is pretty funny. I am going to add a few of my own shortly. Please do not take this post the wrong way as everyone of my other post seem to have been. Check it out it could be a lot of fun.
BlaineTog 11-01-04, 02:58 AM	I don't see it as the DM's game either. I see it as everyone in the group's game...and the DM is a part of the group. That means everyone gets to make decisions, within the realm of what they will be doing in the game. The DM decides the setting, including what things exist within the game world that will be used. The DM also decides how the game is going to begin.For the most part, I like to do setting corraborativelly (wow, I can't spell), as well as starting. And when I engineer the game world, I try to do it the way Eberron was engineered: keep a place for everything [balanced]. I let the players descide whether or not they find the bard silly, for example. But, can you honestly say you run your games no-holds-barred?I can honestly say that I will the next time I DM. The first time, I banned evil PCs just becasue I didn't want to deal with that type of party conflict. When I DM for inexperienced players, I have to bind them pretty strongly (the ones I've DMed for wern't used to the freedom than D&D offers you, and the choice was between badly railroading them or ending the session). If a player wants to be a chaotic evil drow cleric of Lloth (or possibly Lolth...eh. How often do I ever have to spell her name? Sheesh), and the rest of the party are lawful good worshippers of Tyr, you can't honestly tell me that would fit within the Forgotten Realms setting (without a seriously wierd situation in place).Which is one of the reasons I don't play Forgotten Realms. The fact that I'm cheap and don't want to buy the books is another :D. Surely you would tell that player they couldn't be a drow, because the campaign you have in mind is first of all not an underdark campaign, and secondly, it's a campaign for good guys.Whyever would I do that? If a player wants to play a drow, wherefore should I prevent them? Or, you might say "Okay, go for it" and then he dies 5 minutes into the gaming, and has to make a new character, in which case you basically just restricted him from being that character anyway.Since I don't play Forgotten Realms, I don't really know much about the artificial lifespan of the drow. However, I specifically try to keep PCs from dieing during the first session; that just seems a little mean to me. Not that this has anything to do with the subject at hand... What I'm longwindedly (pardon me on that, by the way) trying to say is,You arn't that long winded. On these boards, I've seen (and done) far worse. everyone plays with at least a few limitations in place for flavor of the game, or to keep a story running smoothly how the DM has in mind.If I do put one of those limitations in place, I clear it with my players first. As for treating the game as a story... well, my profile can tell you what I think about that. ;) Just because I might do it in different areas than you might doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the way I do it.Of course not. I would never claim that there is. All I'm trying to say is that such limitations would be wrong for me. I'll have to look it up sometime, I suppose.Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) to the System Resource Document (look a little down the page to see the Psionics stuff). Here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) is a slicker version of it, and here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionic.html) is the Psionics part. Heh...the Wilder. I'd give bonus XP if someone played a Wilder named Gene. Ha ha...get it? Gene Wilder.*shakes head in pathos* (before you ask - no, I don't really do that in game. LOL It's a joke we came up with one time, D&D gods punishing players who make horrible puns).Hmmm..... I'll have to remember that. :devil:
fractal 11-01-04, 03:20 AM	If I can't get power attack as a fighter, or combat expertise (fighters aren't smart, you can't take that feat) then I would feel like something was lacking. True, but disallowing a particular character class is different from nerfing a class. Mind you, if I wanted to "play D&D", and I was told that some of the standard aspects of D&D weren't available, without a reason that satisfied me, I might well be annoyed. On the other hand, if I wanted to play in a fun fantasy game, and I trusted the DM to make good decisions, any or even all of the classes could be thrown out, and replaced by others of the DM's creation, and there would be no problems. For example, a campaign based upon many fantasy novels would require extensive revision of the magic system. Just try and model, say, Xanth, using only core rules. You're going to have to change stuff, and part of that is pretty much removing all of the casting classes, and then giving people spell-like abilities.
darczero 11-01-04, 04:14 AM	any or even all of the classes could be thrown out, and replaced by others of the DM's creation, and there would be no problems. Working on that. Specifically because of the fact that I come back to these boards from time to time and see a new thread almost every day that says "It's too weak, I'm telling!" I'm tired of hearing about all of you weak unimaginative closet-case powergamers who want your "Fix" for everything. Next thing you know, these people will be complaining "My d20 only gives me numbers up to 20, I want to use a bigger die for everything!" If you see a problem, fix it. Don't just complain, and then shoot down everyone who offers any suggestions that may help ease your imagined hardships. 19 pages of responses to a single thread that argues (wrongfully) that a class is underpowered/useless. That's 19 pages that could have been dedicated to something productive. This thread (and most others like it) are simply wasting time and space. I've tossed my two responses in here (as compared to the dozen or so from some posters I've seen), both of which were an attempt to offer a different viewpoint that may have given a little bit of light to a possibly unforeseen side of the class in question. Same thing for the Wizard, Fighter, and Sorcerer thread of the same subject. Each one claims that the class they are bringing up is underpowered, usually how it's the weakest class in the game. Will you people never learn that it's just a game, and you don't need to waste everyone's time complaining how weak your character is? Us DM's get enough of that from our own gaming groups, we really don't need to hear it when we come online looking for a little bit of advice about reasonable topics. I'll get the fixes for every single thing you people are complaining about done as soon as I can. It takes time to make things happen, people, especially when those things are worth doing.
Yade 11-01-04, 12:06 PM	1) Lloth is not in the core rulebook 2) Drow are not core races 3) having an LA means drow couldn't start out as a level 1 character (most of my groups start at level one, and move up from there) 4) He didn't say no-holds-barred Crazy I dont think this should stop someone from playing a drow in one of your games. Instead you could boost the other players somehow, ie giving them extra items or skill points. The level adjustment, imo, is unnecessary because in a well planned game the drow character will be severely disadvantaged by his choice of race. A good DM should be able to compensate for one party member that is more powerful than others. If you are playing in a normal setting the drow is going to have a horrible time in any good society and is going to encounter a great deal of hate. That aspect alone can out weigh the player's decision to be a drow. Inns wont let him stay there, merchants jack the price up for him or wont sell to him. Clerics refuse to heal or cure him.... A drow in a party only breaks a game if the DM is feeble. You could have a drow bard that insidiously uses the party to his own devices. Fascinates and suggests that they do all kinds of evil things. You bard guys should love that idea.
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 12:23 PM	I probably could, yade, but I don't play FRCS, so most of the clones don't seem to appear in my games, which are either Ebberon or some variation on Greyhawk. However, I'd like to hear how I could boost the other player's power to equal the drow's power level after I boost the drow's power level (or reduce my NPCs) so that a random angry mob doesn't tear him apart. As far as I'm concerned, a drow has to be ECL 12+ in order to survive in a typical aboveground campaign. And yes, intelligent players would avoid a race hated by all, but when we're speaking of clones, we aren't talking about intelligent players, now are we?
BlaineTog 11-01-04, 12:40 PM	The level adjustment, imo, is unnecessary because in a well planned game the drow character will be severely disadvantaged by his choice of race.Mechanical benefits should not be balanced by roleplaying concerns. A good DM should be able to compensate for one party member that is more powerful than others.A well-designed game shouldn't require this. Inns wont let him stay there, merchants jack the price up for him or wont sell to him. Clerics refuse to heal or cure him....All solved with the 1800 gp hat of disguise.
Yade 11-01-04, 01:01 PM	I can always count on Blaine for the simple fix to everything, ack there goes that ad hominem again. Mechanical benefits should not be balanced by roleplaying concerns. Is this your argument against Level adjustments? Because if it is I agree. A well-designed game shouldn't require this. No DM, no matter how omnipotent you may think you are, is going to have a game that is perfectly balanced, and therefore it is a valuable skill to know how to adjust things. No two players are the same and there are going to be players that control the game and players that follow. I assume you have played D&D awhile and I also assume that you are just being argumentative because this last paragraph should have been obvious to you. All solved with the 1800 gp hat of disguise. Again, you are simplifying the role play aspect of the game too much. If you are in a hack and slash game then you might be right about the drow being more powerful thant he other members at level 1, but in most campaigns the drow is going to have to do alot more work to fit in. That is the job of the DM, if you are the type of DM that is foiled by this hat, then maybe you should be a player for awhile and learn how this item is but a mere bandaid on a gaping wound. You might fool an innkeeper, but not many more.
crazysamaritan 11-01-04, 01:20 PM	You might fool an innkeeper, but not many more.Actually, plenty more. Unless you're gunning for a disguised drow, most people will be fooled. But there's no reason to play with three first level characters and one 20th level. It's just wrong.
Thorak 11-01-04, 01:31 PM	Is this your argument against Level adjustments? Because if it is I agree. I believe it was an argument for Level Adjustments. Because he (IMHO, quite rightly) feels that a mechanical benefit (like a drow's various abilities) should be offset by a mechanical drawback, not an RP one. No DM, no matter how omnipotent you may think you are, is going to have a game that is perfectly balanced, and therefore it is a valuable skill to know how to adjust things. No two players are the same and there are going to be players that control the game and players that follow. I assume you have played D&D awhile and I also assume that you are just being argumentative because this last paragraph should have been obvious to you. Again, Blainetog's point (I believe) was that a well-designed game won't allow one player to control the game. Or to be capable of creating a character noticeably more powerful than the others. Et cetera. D&D's Rule 0 is basically the simple solution to admitting that the game is inherently flawed, and that it's up to the DM to fix it. This doesn't have to be true, necessarily; the game could be balanced well enough to not require it. Again, you are simplifying the role play aspect of the game too much. If you re in a hack and slash game then you might be right about the drow being more powerful thant he other members at level 1, but in most campaigns the drow is going to have to do alot more work to fit in. That is the job of the DM, if you are the type of DM that is foiled by this hat, then maybe you should be a player for awhile and learn how this item is but a mere bandaid on a gaping wound. You might fool an innkeeper, but not many more. And like Blainetog said, an 1800gp Hat of Disguise means that the drow isn't going to have to do any more work to fit in. Unless people in your world run around casting anti-magic shells and dispel magics on random people "just in case" they're not the High Elf they appear to be. Which seems rather silly and paranoid.
BlaineTog 11-01-04, 02:33 PM	Is this your argument against Level adjustments? Because if it is I agree.:uh-huh: This has nothing to do with LA. This has to do with "Drow are balanced because everyone hates them." For the record, I find the Drow's LA to be practically the only one that's worth it. LA+2 for a drow is balanced, because they get scaling benefits. No DM, no matter how omnipotent you may think you are, is going to have a game that is perfectly balanced, and therefore it is a valuable skill to know how to adjust things. No two players are the same and there are going to be players that control the game and players that follow.Of course. Perfect game balance is probably impossible to acheive, but you can approach it. If the game literally requires the DM to balance things on a regular basis, then its poorley designed. Here and there, it could use some help, but on the whole and average, the DM shouldn't have to touch anything. If you are in a hack and slash game then you might be right about the drow being more powerful thant he other members at level 1, but in most campaigns the drow is going to have to do alot more work to fit in.He has to put on a hat (of disguise). That's all. Actually, the drow is an interesting case: why is being hated in the game world a bad thing? I'm serious. From the character's point of view, its horrible, but you are not your character. Everyone hating you just gives you more things to riff off of. If it causes combat, so what? You were going to be fighting someone anyway, might as well be these people. It's only a bad thing if you look at the game as if it were a foot race or a contest and you have to see which character can last the longest. Otherwise, being a drow is merely an event agitator that causes interesting things to happen to the party, which is (presumeuably) what you want anyway. So in actuality, roleplaying cannot be used to balance mechanics because roleplaying doesn't balance mechanics. Roleplaying isn't even connected to balance. The only time roleplaying might balance out a character (in this case, by shortening the character's life span) is in a hack-'n'slash game... but those campaigns don't care about roleplaying anyway, so the point is moot. You might fool an innkeeper, but not many more.The hat fools everyone who doesn't interact with it. So as long as you arn't making out with someone or something, it automatically succeeds. If the player is a druid or spellcasters or rogue with fatty ranks in Disguise, it workes even better. Edit:I believe it was an argument for Level Adjustments. Because he (IMHO, quite rightly) feels that a mechanical benefit (like a drow's various abilities) should be offset by a mechanical drawback, not an RP one.Yep. Especially because that roleplaying concern isn't even necessarily a drawback. Again, Blainetog's point (I believe) was that a well-designed game won't allow one player to control the game. Or to be capable of creating a character noticeably more powerful than the others. Et cetera.Spot on. This doesn't have to be true, necessarily; the game could be balanced well enough to not require it.IMO, it could approach perfection but never really reach it. There's an asmyptote at "Perfect." Unless people in your world run around casting anti-magic shells and dispel magics on random people "just in case" they're not the High Elf they appear to be. Which seems rather silly and paranoid.Yep. Personally, I think that might even be kinda fun. You have to be constantly on the lookout for these Drow hunters, getting outta dodge when they come into sight.
Carpe DM 11-02-04, 12:28 AM	I personally don't like level adjustments, but not because of roleplaying balances or concerns. I just don't like them because it's a way of making people who should be more powerful, equally powerful with those weaker than them. Hey, some species should just be more powerful than others. In the real world in the wild, if you compare different species of wild cats, some are stronger and more agile than others, but they aren't somehow stunted in their worldly experience compared to the weaker, smaller wild cats. Can you imagine? A two year old bobcat expertly swatting a fish out of a stream, while the two year old leopard, who is naturally stronger and quicker, fumbles about in the stream because he isn't as experienced just because he's stronger and better. Quite silly, don't you think? After all, look at Dwarves. Dwarves get a ton of stuff, and they're considered "equal" to a human. By that same token, a half-orc doesn't get a whole lot of anything, and he is considered equal to a human too. Which means in game terms, the very powerful dwarf is considered equal to the not very powerful half-orc. Sure, I think we can all agree that a drow is even more powerful than a dwarf is, but....eh. I think we can all agree that, while no class is specifically imbalanced, some classes are certainly more powerful than others (in particular at high levels). But classes don't have some silly modifier to how fast they can level up based on being a member of that class.
BlaineTog 11-02-04, 12:42 AM	Quite silly, don't you think?Sure. But like many other thigs, it doesn't matter. So what if it's silly? The alternative is one character that is objectivelly more powerful than another, and thats very bad. I'd much rather have a small lapse in logic than a power gap. After all, look at Dwarves. Dwarves get a ton of stuff, and they're considered "equal" to a human.Quite a few people on the boards (including myself) feel the dwarf is too strong. By that same token, a half-orc doesn't get a whole lot of anything, and he is considered equal to a human too.Again, most people online consider the half-orc underpowered. I think we can all agree that, while no class is specifically imbalanced, some classes are certainly more powerful than others (in particular at high levels).This is a problem that we are in the process of fixing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because some of the classes are imbalanced doesn't give the races a licence to be.
Snommelp 11-02-04, 12:49 AM	Can you imagine? A two year old bobcat expertly swatting a fish out of a stream, while the two year old leopard, who is naturally stronger and quicker, fumbles about in the stream because he isn't as experienced just because he's stronger and better. Quite silly, don't you think? Actually, LA would be more like a one month old leopard compared to that two year old bobcat. In this case, the age of the cat is representative of its level; the naturally stronger and faster leopard gets the LA, which represents its natural superiority that can take the place of (some) years of experience. (NOTE: I am not a zoologist. Odds are my ages for these cats are off. I don't really care that much, though.)
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-02-04, 12:55 AM	As Blaine mentioned, Evanius wasn't well built. The reason is that Evanius was originally 3e and built like a bleedin' Jedi. Almost everything was mind control. Meaning he relied on his opponents failing will saves (happened more often thanks to some home brew Wis poison). Well, I had to rebuild him to deal with inferior 3.5 magic and items. I also had to leave my original concept, knowing that more often than not, my opponent would pass his will save. From those factors, I traded in the Jedi thing and all his good items (Performance and diplomacy enhancing sash, Wings of Flight, and my sweet, sweet boots of springing and striding), which were no longer useful for a new strategy, one I'm not acustomed to building for, but I was certain would work well against any suprises I'd run into. I kept his hole cards (hold and Dominate) though, but I knew I was most likely going against a cleric -- pretty much the most powerful class from a hack and slash standpoint. To be honest, I expected a halfling cleric archer before Cato said he was 4' tall. Personally, I would have played against Evanious with a rogue with a Cloak Etherealness and a scroll of Silence.
MarcalotheGreat 11-02-04, 02:17 AM	Well, I surely didn't make it through every page of this thread, but I did catch enough to bolster my own resolve enough to oblige you all with my opinions and ideas. Bards are not useless. PC's who just don't get them are. I mean, really, it's an extremely simple concept: "Jack of All Trades" as the phrase was coined however many millenia ago. You've all heard it used and I'm sure you've all said, "Well, I'm good at both this and that." at some point or another. To an extent - we've all got a little Bard in us, whether you hum to yourself during one of those O'-So-Vicious Whirlwind attacks with a Spiked-chain or sing your favorite drinking-song amidst a tavern of hardy folk. Now, this may shock some of you, so please excercise caution reading this: Your character isn't JUST numbers. Whew. Now that we've got that outta the way, let me entail what I mean and how I, at least, see this matter of Bardic dispute. Other PC/NPC - Use of the Bard Wizard/Sorcerer - What wizard doesn't want a Bard to list his achievments? Wizards are, by nature, very competitive creatures and a Bard would only spur him on to new heights, as well as be of assistance! "Sure, I can tell you where to find that spell component you've been looking for! *insert use of knowledge/ability to gather information skills here*" Fighter - So the Bard sings and he gets this: Attack roll bonus, damage bonus, morale bonuses, save bonuses...Hell, bonuses for your bonuses! With a Bard behind him or beside him, a Fighter would appreciate the extras that come with that melody-spoutin', fancy pants, long-winded, lute-playing fool! Rogue - This duo is one that has always made me giggle a bit...mainly due to my friends' reference to it. Tell me now...who can case (You know...like..."Check out for robbery"-reference) a place better than a Bard spoutin' off the latest epic or playing his bagpipes while a nimble Rogue juggles and entertains while "discretely" noting every detail about the place you'll be robbing a few nights (or sooner!). The Rogue's pockets will definately stay nicely filled with that ever-handy Bard around. Cleric - What do you know? Someone to heal the Cleric should HE bite the dust and while he's at it he could promote MY deity! Splendorous! Red Wizard of Thay - What Red Wizard doesn't want to be made bigger, badder, and even MORE capable of wreaking destruction and desecreation throughout the lands!? (This is just here for comedic reference. Thanks Mike, for being the Thayan tyrant you are.) Now, there are endless combinations, as I KNOW was mentioned many times over in these posts. The things is - Bards rock. They're social creatures for the most part. What good is your "Me bad. Me crush."-Fighter when that Tower of Mystery he wants to enter opens a little panel on the door and says, "What's the password?" About as good as dirt. Mmm-mm good. Good ol' useful dirt. That's all for now. I'll be back to rant another day.
fractal 11-02-04, 02:19 AM	I personally don't like level adjustments, but not because of roleplaying balances or concerns. I just don't like them because it's a way of making people who should be more powerful, equally powerful with those weaker than them. *shrug* Not really. A level 10 Drow Wizard is still more powerful than a level 10 High Elf Wizard. Even though they have equal magical knowledge, the Drow's superior racial benefits give him a decisive edge. Maybe what you're complaining about is that the Drow Wiz 10 wouldn't adventure with an Elf Wiz 10? Well, why should he? That character isn't qualified to be his equal, and adventuring parties are generally composed of equals. Or perhaps you're complaining that the Drow had to fight tougher monsters to reach level 10 than the Elf did? That's because you get experience based upon the difficulty of a challenge. A four year old human (very little experience) would have no difficulty defeating (stepping on) a big ant. A small ant, however, even one experienced in insectile combat, would have a great amount of difficulty defeating that big ant, and should get more experience from the accomplishment. Moral of the story? Humans have a much larger LA than small ants.
Yade 11-02-04, 03:10 AM	I agree with Carpe, not all are created equal. Personally, after this thread I think I will play an underdog class, like the bard, just to prove that a player can make the difference and that the stats and abilities of a race are not that significant. If you want to use level adjustments in classes you should definitely give the bard a boost because the class could use the help. Other than their fascinate ability they do not have a lot to go on. They are just musical rogues with minor spell casting ability. Tra la la la lally down in the valley, Where the bards like to prance and play. wiggle wiggle, tickle tickle, giggle giggle, they are so happy, witty and gay. (not a sexual reference it just happened to rhyme with play) I find it amusing that one of you saw fit to sign me up for the Math Tutoring service here at ASU, but I must remind you that you are crossing the line by doing so. I did, however, talk to the tutor and he confirmed my belief that there is a lot of disparity in the professional world over the accuracy of probability math. He was also unable to find any existing formula that could indicate what the chances of rolling a one out of 12 rolls on a d20 were. Perhaps in your next campaigns you can include an NPC that taunts the bards and the party, and you'll feel better by allowing the party to kill him.
Nithendil 11-02-04, 03:36 AM	Wizard/Sorcerer - with the virtuoso Pcr the bard can also boost spellcasting DCs as well. While it's understood most discussion is based on CORE rules, if you add in some of the exalted deed and song & silence feats and spells, the bard becomes quite useful indeed. 1. Double inspire courage from words of creation and +1 for using a horn, and at level 8 the bard is adding +5 moral bonus to hit and damage to his allies. With lingering song, this lasts 10 rounds and up. This is arguably "miracle" or "wish" like power available at level 8, 8 times a day. Sure, you have to be more good than the pope, and it's subject to DM approval, but very powerful indeed. Add to that an inspire greatness under words at level 9 and you give the fighter 4 1d10 HD (with con bonus), and an additional +4 competence to attack rolls (total +9). Add to that haste (an additional +1 BAB, +1 AC, and an additional attack at full BAB) displacement (attacks miss fighter 50%), and you've turned the fighter into an unstoppable death machine (fighter now has +1 AC, one additional attack at full BAB, +10 to hit, +5 damage on each hit, and four additional HD). Cast alter self (+5 AC), and blink (50% chance enemy misses) and flank the target to give the fighter an additional +2 to hit. Yes, the wizard gets displacement and haste too, but in my experience they’re usually too busy casting fireballs than buffing the party, and any buffs I do just leave more spell slots open the wizard can use to blast. 2. Scout: spot ~3 enemies or less up ahead? Go invisible, sneak up on them, and as a move action dismiss your invisibility, use a free action to clap to get their attention, and fascinate (or if that’s too cheesy for your DM, use a battle horn to both get their attention and fascinate). Save up any cursed items you get, because with a simple suggestion it’s gift time. Don’t have any cursed items saved up? Suggest to your new friend that his companions are traitors and were plotting to kill him, and that it would be a great idea for him to help us out and dispose of them. Oh yah, you can do this x/lvl, so it’s great to use for scouting and fascinating/suggesting to just what may be behind the next dungeon door. In the right hands, suggestion x/lvl is almost too powerful (if you’re not in a 98% undead or similar campaign). The save is moot since your fascinate is almost unbeatable and suggestion can be repeated until you hit it right). 3. As previously stated, the bard can cure the cleric when the cleric goes down. This is a great thing (other classes can do this too, but bards are most likely to have spare wands of cure x wounds lying around). 4. No rogues in the party? It takes a bit of a cut into the bard, but a bard can go rogue1/bardx, take the cosmopolitan feat twice (to add both search and disable traps as class skills) and he can now find and disable magic traps as good as any rogue of his level. 1d6 sneak attack isn’t too shabby either. 5. The bard gets some great utility spells. Of course, compared to a full caster, they don’t do 100d6 damage / rnd, but glitterdust, grease, haste, greater invis/zone of silence, greater dispel magic, improvisation (song and silence), charm monster, mass and otto’s irresistible dance are not too shabby. Plus, the bard can pick up nearly any item and have a decent chance of using it, so theoretically he has access to any spell in the cleric, druid, and wizard spellist. Dupe your wizard to create a couple wands of 9th level magic missiles and scorching rays and now you can blast decently as well, or dupe your cleric into creating a couple of cure critical wands and now you can heal decently too. 6. ľ BAB. (with bard song we have almost full BAB a good deal of the time). 7. 2nd best skillist and skillpoints. 8. 2 good saves. 9. ok HD and some ok weapon proficiencies. I don’t see what more you can add to the bard without making them overpowerful. They are the “balanced” D&D class. Sure, if you want em to be as powerful as wizards and clerics, you can add more spells/day and spells known, but if anything the wizard/druid/cleric should be dropped down a notch. Do you realize the bard abilities stack? Using just core rules, at level 15, you can inspire courage (moral) to everyone for +3 hit/damage and +3 sv vs charm/fear, inspire greatness (competence) to the fighter and yourself to add two additional HD+con, +2 additional to attack, +1 fortitude, and inspire heroics on the tank to add +4 moral AC and +4 moral bonus on ALL saving throws. Arguably, that’s at least a level 9 or two spells worth of bonuses right there. With 3 uses of bardic music per battle for all of this, and 15 available / day (at level 15), that’s a good 5 battles worth of a good amount of buffs.
CaoSlayer 11-02-04, 03:51 AM	If you want to use level adjustments in classes you should definitely give the bard a boost because the class could use the help. Other than their fascinate ability they do not have a lot to go on. They are just musical rogues with minor spell casting ability. ummm, fascinate it is really worthless all the time... it is a very conditional feat and it is very rare to use it in a game... you should read one of these days the bard´s spelllist. Minor spellcasting it is the one of a ranger or a paladin... but take a look to the one of the bard; I would not call minor spellcaster to someone being able to cast level 8 wizard/sorcerer spells (Shout, Otto´s dance, mass charm monster) and with +1 caster level / character level. for taking acount of the bard "brokeness" you must add: would be balanced a class that: +have 3/4 BAB +have two good saves +can use spell-like songs 1 time per day. +can use light armor without troubles and shield with minor troubles. +it competent with many martial weapons and a good exotic weapon. +have +6 skill points/level +have the most extended skill list in the game. +have an "emulate many knowledge skills" feature +can cast up to level 6 spells; mixing some bard´s only spells; some arcane +spells using a spell level lower and cleric´s ones like cure X wounds and silence. +have a good caster progresion. Of course, this also proves than the cleric and the druid are overpowered, but that isnt a secret, have been said many times by Wizard´s dudes than it is because little people would play cleric ("umm, playing with an animated healing rod? no thanks") without the actual boost.
BlaineTog 11-02-04, 03:56 AM	CaoSlayer, We've been over all of this before with Yade. Yade clearly does not want to learn. And you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.
CaoSlayer 11-02-04, 03:57 AM	sorry, I simply cant help it :D I like to argue.
Thermanshs 11-02-04, 04:19 AM	CaoSlayer, We've been over all of this before with Yade. Yade clearly does not want to learn. And you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Maybe the smartest of all the things you've said so far Blainie
TheDarkestOfAngels 11-02-04, 04:28 AM	sorry, I simply cant help it That's certainly understandable. It's quite frustrating to tell truth to people who won't accept it beyond all logic... and math, apparently. I really do wish that the fight was able to go underway, because I was confident that the bard would have won. Against an anti-spellcaster-built archer-cleric, no less. Then Yade would have had to make excuses about it and attempt to taunt Vaal into a rematch. That would have amused me to no end.
Thorak 11-02-04, 08:20 AM	I find it amusing that one of you saw fit to sign me up for the Math Tutoring service here at ASU, but I must remind you that you are crossing the line by doing so. I did, however, talk to the tutor and he confirmed my belief that there is a lot of disparity in the professional world over the accuracy of probability math. He was also unable to find any existing formula that could indicate what the chances of rolling a one out of 12 rolls on a d20 were. I'm sorry. I find this hilarious. It's the perfect kind of of practical joke, in that it makes it's point (that the joker thinks you need math help) without hurting the jokee (at least, I assume you don't have to pay for it, if you do that reduces the amusement value). Childish, sure, and I'd never take a debate on these boards off of them. But an amusing gag, as I believe you find it as well, though perhaps in a slightly different way than an onlooker. That said; your tutor's an idiot. More than one of us has linked to more than one website that listed how to figure out probabilities, and dice rolls are incredibly easy to do because the odds of each number coming up are perfectly even. Your tutor has, I assume, failed high school math? I know I learned basic probability like this before grade 11.
Nithendil 11-02-04, 08:39 AM	I'm an ASU alumni and the math department there is really poor quality...I suggest going over to the stat department in the psych building.
Trisstessa 11-02-04, 09:04 AM	Bards are the Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none.
Yade 11-02-04, 09:39 AM	Thank you Tristessa, the bards seem to have forgotten this basic tenet of their class. That said; your tutor's an idiot. More than one of us has linked to more than one website that listed how to figure out probabilities, and dice rolls are incredibly easy to do because the odds of each number coming up are perfectly even. Your tutor has, I assume, failed high school math? I know I learned basic probability like this before grade 11. Thorak I may currently be a musician but my undergraduate degree is in Biochemical Engineering from USC. In some scientific labs they have started to completely discard E=mc2, at first the scientific community laughed but now they are seriously eating crow, even the highest of perceived geniuses can be horribly wrong. You guys seem to be pretty good at getting into my life, go verify that, it would not be hard to do. I can tell you that there is no way to accurately determine "chance". I don't care how many formulas you spit out on me, I acknowledge that mathematicians have a need to impose order where there is none, and statisticians are the worst. "What happens to your 46% if a 1 never comes up", which is a possible outcome. You MUST accept that in a condition where your variable is garbage that there exists unpredictable outcomes. HENCE the math of probability is not a precise science. Then Yade would have had to make excuses about it and attempt to taunt Vaal into a rematch. That would have amused me to no end. It'll never happen DoA, it's not in my nature to be a sore loser or winner. I would have found it funny and if that would have given you some sadistic pleasure then go right ahead and keep it to yourself. This type of boasting is typical of someone on the sidelines and not in the battle. We've been over all of this before with Yade. Yade clearly does not want to learn. And you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Blaine say this "The world is flat" repeat it a million times then maybe you'll start to believe it, then say it a few more million times and maybe it will come true, good luck!!! Drink some water first so your voice does not get hoarse. ummm, fascinate it is really worthless all the time... it is a very conditional feat and it is very rare to use it in a game... I agree Caos, hence the most powerful bardic ability is the most conditional one. Meaning that they are at best a support class. What does it mean to be a support class to you guys? Maybe that is why you are disagreeing with me, we might have different ideas of what a support class is. The bard buffs are not the only ones out there, good cleric or mage buffs are more desireable, in my opinion, especially considering that a mage can crank out a few fireballs and the cleric can ressurect (eventually). Nithendil I really enjoyed your article, thanks. I will look into both books for more bardic ideas, though I am not still very sold on playing one. I'm sorry. I find this hilarious. It's the perfect kind of of practical joke, in that it makes it's point (that the joker thinks you need math help) without hurting the jokee (at least, I assume you don't have to pay for it, if you do that reduces the amusement value). Thorak while I am amused I also see that this is the beginning of a bad series of jokes. If you start this type of mess then it can get worse, I like to think you people have some perspective, you can see how this can start to get dangerous. My last post was a bit inflamatory and the person who called me and the person who saw fit to sign me up for something that they themselves needed are the main targets of the ire. Enjoy the poem and ponder on how it applies to your bards. For one second, I wish the lot of you bards would be mature enough to look at my side, especially on the math issue. You cannot live life without ever considering that you are wrong, idiots and dead people live that way. Think about it.
Thorak 11-02-04, 09:54 AM	First, I agree wholeheartedly that practical-joking like this can easily go WAY too far. Signing you up for a free math-tutoring class is kind of amusing, especially done anonymously with nobody trying to claim credit (and it wasn't me; I don't care enough about the issue to even look up what school you're at or your real name). Any further similar jokes, though, will just be annoying and poor sportsmanship; the point was made with the first gag. Anything else is just someone being a lame copycat. Thorak I may currently be a musician but my undergraduate degree is in Biochemical Engineering from USC. In some scientific labs they have started to completely discard E=mc2, at first the scientific community laughed but now they are seriously eating crow, even the highest of perceived geniuses can be horribly wrong. You guys seem to be pretty good at getting into my life, go verify that, it would not be hard to do. I can tell you that there is no way to accurately determine "chance". I don't care how many formulas you spit out on me, I acknowledge that mathematicians have a need to impose order where there is none, and statisticians are the worst. "What happens to your 46% if a 1 never comes up", which is a possible outcome. You MUST accept that in a condition where your variable is garbage that there exists unpredictable outcomes. HENCE the math of probability is not a precise science. And I may be an Honours History student (I could have a BA if I'd chosen to graduate last year, but I'm aiming at grad school, I only mention this to make clear I have earned a degree even if it hasn't been technically awarded), but I started in Engineering, so I've got a much firmer grasp on math up through calculus than most Arts students. We're not discussing science. Science tries to describe the real world, and thus can make mistakes. That's where E=mc^2 can have problems; it's a theory and may not be right. Math, however, is entirely logical and perfect. I believe the problem you're having is that you think out numbers describe actual occurences. They don't. If an infinite number of 12 d20s are rolled, 46% of those sets will show at least one 1. Any single set, obviously, can't be described by math. Statistics can only give the odds of it. It's like the lottery. Odds are, nobody will win it, because the odds are so astronomically low. And yet, people do win it. Despite the odds. Here, the odds are relatively even. We're not saying you would roll a 1. We're saying there's about a 50-50 chance you would. You might roll no 1s, you might roll all 1s. The math isn't describing what you'll actually roll, but the chances of it. Going back to the lottery; say there's a 1 in 15 million chance. Someone's still going to be that one. And in the case of 12 20 sided dice, there's a 46 in 100 chance that a 1 will, at some point in the set, show up. It doesn't mean it will or won't show up. Just like the math doesn't describe who wins the lottery, the probability doesn't describe what numbers you will roll. Just the chances. The math of probability is a precise science. It's just not trying to provide actual results, just the chances of them. And my posts have nothing to do with any pro-bardness on my part. I'm toying with the idea of playing one after seeing this thread, but not because I think they're uber. I just got an idea for a character using subharmonics to control others, "singing" without actually making an audible sound (yet still affected by Silence and all that, it's just out of human range). I'm only posting as a mental exercise and because I'm absolutely convinced you're incorrect on the math topic.
zudbash 11-02-04, 10:26 AM	For one second, I wish the lot of you bards would be mature enough to look at my side, especially on the math issue. Here is the thing about the "math issue". Assumption 1: Each number on a fair d20 has a 5% chance of coming up. Assumption 2: Each time you roll a d20, the result is independent of any previous rolls. From these two assumptions we can through logic derive that in 12 rolls there will be a 46% chance that at least one "1" will come up. The 46% formula is not a "theory"--it is a logical consequence of the above two assumptions. If you believe the two assumptions are reasonably met for a given d20, then you also believe in the 46%. If you don't believe in the 46%, then it must be because you don't find the assumptions to be reasonable. If you have a problem with the 46%, you have been arguing about it in the wrong way. You will never convince a knowledgeable person that the formula is wrong or doesn't exist, because the formula is a verifiable fact. If you have a problem with the assumptions that is different altogether.
Yade 11-02-04, 10:54 AM	I agree with your two assumptions, the problem is how you get to the 46% Probability is inherrently inaccurate. The formula used to derive that 46% is not accurate, it is the result of a mathematician trying to impose order over randomness. It is no better than statistical math, a field that strives to prove itself accurate.
Mercurius 11-02-04, 11:06 AM	Probability is exactly like Thorak said. It's a chance. The weatherman says there's a 70% chance of rain. And then it doesn't rain that day. That makes it, technically, a 0% chance that it rained, but if it had rained, it'd have been 100%. There was a good chance that it was going to rain, but that doesn't mean that it was going to rain. Dice are the same way. That's why, when you roll a d6, you have a (theoretical) 50% chance to roll a 4-6. But if you don't, then you clearly didn't, right? That's the logic you're espousing, Yade. That just because it doesn't happen, then chance wasn't there. That's not true. It's simply that, while the chance was there, it didn't occur.
Snommelp 11-02-04, 11:09 AM	For one second, I wish the lot of you bards would be mature enough to look at my side, especially on the math issue. You cannot live life without ever considering that you are wrong, idiots and dead people live that way. Think about it. Yade, most of us have looked at your side. We have attempted to explain to you in ways you will understand our side of the argument. You, however, continually call us idiots and argue the same points over and over. Physician, heal thyself.
zudbash 11-02-04, 12:51 PM	I agree with your two assumptions, the problem is how you get to the 46% Probability is inherrently inaccurate. The formula used to derive that 46% is not accurate, it is the result of a mathematician trying to impose order over randomness. It is no better than statistical math, a field that strives to prove itself accurate. I'm still confused. You say that you agree with the assumptions, but at the same time contend that probability is inherently inaccurate. I would agree that probability is inaccurate, but the reason for this is that our assumptions about the world are never completely accurate. But given a set of assumptions we can derive logical conclusions. The formula is just one of the conclusions we can draw from the assumptions given.
Yade 11-02-04, 01:01 PM	But given a set of assumptions we can derive logical conclusions. The formula is just one of the conclusions we can draw from the assumptions given. All serial Killers like chocolate cookies, If you like chocolate cookies you must be a serial killer. This is an eronious assumption based on a known fact. Here are the assumptions that I agree with; Assumption 1: Each number on a fair d20 has a 5% chance of coming up. Assumption 2: Each time you roll a d20, the result is independent of any previous rolls. If we take both of these as true, then there can never be a formula for the probability of a number coming up over consecutive rolls Assumption 1 = p Assumption 2 = q Formula for Probability = r if p and q then not r if r and p then not q but we have already said that p and q are givens so therefore not r has to be a given as well. Assumption 2: Each time you roll a d20, the result is independent of any previous rolls Independent, not relating to, having no consequence in common......
CaoSlayer 11-02-04, 01:31 PM	I agree Caos, hence the most powerful bardic ability is the most conditional one. Meaning that they are at best a support class. What does it mean to be a support class to you guys? Maybe that is why you are disagreeing with me, we might have different ideas of what a support class is. The bard buffs are not the only ones out there, good cleric or mage buffs are more desireable, in my opinion, especially considering that a mage can crank out a few fireballs and the cleric can ressurect (eventually). that isnt true... name me two cleric buffers better than haste, inspire courage or improved invisibility and that arent personal range... clerics only are good at buffing themselves. with UMD the resurrection thing isnt in case, and about fireballs, bards also can thanks to shadow evocation or ever with a scroll or staff of fireballs. also usually wizards are too busy throwing fireballs for buffing, they have to prepare spells "I cant dispell that, I just prepared a dispell magic because I wanted many fireballs" only have +2 skills points, they skill list it is pretty small and they are easy to kill without using a couple of rounds of buffing and finally they are useless in an antimagic field. The cleric is more better by raw numbers, but still the weight of having pray to something-someone and little skill points make them a quite boring to play most time. next time, quote everything I say, if you only look at fascination, then the bard sucks, add everything together.
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 01:35 PM	All serial Killers like chocolate cookies, THat is an assumption I disagree with. I happen to like oatmeal :rolleyes: Goofyness aside, you are still not making sense in regards to probability, yade.
ThoughtfulOwl 11-02-04, 01:37 PM	Assumption 2: Each time you roll a d20, the result is independent of any previous rolls Independent, not relating to, having no consequence in common...... Unfortunately, "independent" in probability theory has quite a different (and very technical) meaning: From HERE (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IndependentStatistics.html) Two variates A and B are statistically independent iff the conditional probability http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg838.gif of A given B satisfies http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg839.gif (1) in which case the probability of A and B is just http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg840.gif (2) Similarly, n events http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg543.gif, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg547.gif, ..., http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg841.gif are independent iff http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg842.gif (3) Statistically independent variables are always uncorrelated, but the converse is not necessarily true. Note: the last formula means that the probability that all those uncorrelated a(1) ... A(n) will happen is the product of the probability of each event. If A(k) is rolling 2-20 on the k-th roll, guess what results?
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 01:37 PM	The cleric is more better by raw numbers, but still the weight of having pray to something-someone and little skill points make them a quite boring to play most time. I completely disagree with you, but then again, I'm predjudiced.
Thorak 11-02-04, 01:42 PM	All serial Killers like chocolate cookies, If you like chocolate cookies you must be a serial killer. This is an eronious assumption based on a known fact. It's erroneous because it's Affirming the Consequent, a logical fallacy. A is B, B, therefore A. Serial killers like cookies. You like cookies. You're a serial killer. The logic is what is fallacious; just because serial killers like cookies doesn't mean the reverse. It may be true, but only by accident. Here are the assumptions that I agree with; If we take both of these as true, then there can never be a formula for the probability of a number coming up over consecutive rolls Let's simplify. Instead of talking about d20s, which have 20 options, let's talk about coins, which have 2. Same difference, though, we're just effectively talking about D2s, instead of D20s. Flip a coin. 50% chance of either heads or tails. Flip two coins. There are four possibilities; two heads, two tails, a head and a tail, or a tail and a head. If we wanted to know the odds of, say, a tail showing up in two flips, just look at the possibilities; 1 of the 4 possible flip sets contains no tails. Therefore, there's a 75% chance of tails coming up in two flips. Now, 3 flips. HHH, HHT, HTH, HTT, THH, THT, TTH, TTT. 8 possible sets; any 3 flips will have to be one of these patterns. And, if we're looking for at least one tails, there's only 1 option out of 8 that is all heads. Which means there's an 87.5% chance of a Tails showing up. 4 flips; HHHH, HHHT, HHTH, HHTT, HTHH, HTHT, HTTH, HTTT, THHH, THHT, THTH, THTT, TTHH, TTHT, TTTH, TTTT. 16 variations. One of which has no tails. So there's a 93.75% chance of flipping a tails. I could go further, but you get the picture. Now, an easier way to do this mathematically is to use the formula which represents this statistically. Which is 1-(probability)^(number of repetitions). In this case, 50%^X. If X=1, the probability is 50% If X=2, the probability is 75% If X=3, the probability is 87.5% If X=4, the probability is 93.25%. The progression matches, meaning the equation is accurately describing the probability we can see through brute-force computing. Meaning the equation is right. Switch to d20s, and finding sets without ones, and the probability of a not-one is 95%, and there's 12 repetitions. 0.95^12= ~54%, which is the probability of you not rolling a one. Meaning a 46% chance of rolling a one. Assumption 2: Each time you roll a d20, the result is independent of any previous rolls Independent, not relating to, having no consequence in common...... The problem here is that the rolls are interdependent. The question was "what are the odds of rolling at least a single one in a set of 12 d20 rolls?" If you roll a 1 on the first roll, we don't care what you'd roll on the next 11. The odds of any single roll getting a 1 is 5%. For the same reason that coin tosses get progressively more likely to show a tails, d20 rolls get progressively more likely to roll a one, at least once, somewhere within the set, as you increase the number of rolls. To 46%, at 12 sets. Go back and take a look at my examples with coins. Probability math essentially calculates how many sets out of the total possible number of sets could fit the requirement. And you can see how the odds get better of the occurrence happening each time you roll. Obviously, the number of possible rolls in 12 d20 rolls is huge (8 quadrillion some), so it would be ridiculous to brute-force calculate it. Even for 2 rolls, there's 400 sets. But the math holds true; ~46% of that 8 quadrillion sets will have at least one 1 somewhere in them. The difference is that it's not the odds of the single roll[i] that get better, but the odds of the [i]set that do. If you didn't roll a 1 on your first roll, the odds of you doing so get worse with each progressive roll that's not a 1. Because by rolling a not-one, you've eliminated the possibility of rolling one of the sets that contained a one at that point; each roll reduces the number of potential sets your actual set will be part of by 1/20th. If you make it to your last roll, there's only 20 sets your rolls could be part of, based on the 20 possibilities of your final roll. And the odds are 1 in 20. But you've already elminated all the many potential sets that could have rolled a one earlier. We're looking at sets, not individual rolls. Which makes a huge difference. Edit: I hope my post is somewhat easier to read and understand than ThoughtfulOwl's. Not that he's wrong, but jargon confuses people unused to it. If you have any questions or issues with what I've posted, ask. I'll explain further. But don't dismiss it just because you don't want to agree; that's an ignorant and close-minded way to argue. Not that I think anyone is ignorant or close-minded, just their arguments.
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 01:57 PM	in which case the probability of A and B is just http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg840.gif (2) Similarly, n events http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg543.gif, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg547.gif, ..., http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg841.gif are independent iff http://mathworld.wolfram.com/iimg842.gif (3) Statistically independent variables are always uncorrelated, but the converse is not necessarily true. Note: the last formula means that the probability that all those uncorrelated a(1) ... A(n) will happen is the product of the probability of each event. I understood everything from Owl except for this, and understand about 90% of Thorak. All I really know is Owl has math skills, and Thorak is explaining it the way it's supposed to be. I can pretend to understand Thorak's, at least. If you roll 20 times on a d20, and always get a nat20, there's a 5% chance you'll get a 20 on your next roll.
ThoughtfulOwl 11-02-04, 02:09 PM	I understood everything from Owl except for this, and understand about 90% of Thorak. Sorry. :embarrass The formulas you quoted read as such: P(AB) = probability that both A and B will happen. P(A "intersection" B) = the same with a different format P(A) and P(B) are the probability that A will happen and that B will happen, respectively. Meaning: if A and B are independent, the probability of both happening is the flat probability of A x the flat probability of B. The last formula is a generalization: the left side is the probability that all the events will happen; the right side is the product of the probabilities for each event, taken alone. For example, if roll #1 will yield 2-20 with a probability of 95% and roll #2 does the same, then the probability of both rolling 2-20 is 0.95x0.95. :P
DomYorio 11-02-04, 02:12 PM	Man..........This place is nothing but gang central. If I did not know any better I would say everything that Yad says, and I mean everything , is completely wrong. No matter what it is. You guys just seem to think that if he posts then its on, and you must dissect everything he has said. That is just sad, mates. The math thing I could care less about. I gave my thoughts earlier. I hate math, personally, I have no use for all of the more complex components of it. I use my common sense for situations not probabilities. If things turn out well, great. If not, better luck next time. My life has been great so far, and I have no reason to complain. Life is to short to stress about problems all of the time. Yes, this world would not be what it is today without the mathematicians, statisticians, and so on and so forth. But, you need people who do not think that way so that the world does not become boring or programmed. I know you guys love to argue, and I am going to be blasted for this post. I really don't care. I'm not you and your not me so we will forever disagree, because no two people are exactly the same EVER! Thats why people can reach an understanding. IF BOTH sides are willing.
Yade 11-02-04, 02:18 PM	I do, believe it or not, understand what both of them are saying. Consequently Thorak we agree on everything that you have said except that the whole system is fallacious. And there was no need for you to correct my serial killer logic by agreeing with it, lol. I Assumed that everyone would see the fault in logic, and therefore felt no need to point it out. (The truth I mentioned has to do with a survey of serial killers where whether or not they like chocolate cookies or not was asked. IT WAS!!! Crazy psychologists getting inside the minds of a mad man, consequently they asked if you preferred cats or dogs and lots of other banal questions) I have taken the math "ishew" to my new tutor, lol. And we will have a professional and definitive answer in a few days. To CaoSlayer and others like him I propose this. Y'all bards compose a list, numbering 1-?. of the bardic abilities that you want me to represent in other classes. Meaning you say fascinate I might say suggest...... etc... Lets not limit this to just the 3.5 core books but we can open it to the class books and products produced by WOTC, basically anything that can be found in the SRD online. We all automatically assume that all of the abilities listed cannot be represented by one character, so whether or not it is realistic for a player to have 10 levels in 12 prestige classes is never going to be an issue. This discussion is about the straight merit of bardic abilities vs other class abilities. Please list them numerically so that when I respond to them it will be easy for myself and the readers to locate the original case that i am referring to. Math on hold......
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 02:23 PM	1) We all automatically assume that all of the abilities listed cannot be represented by one character, so whether or not it is realistic for a player to have 10 levels in 12 prestige classes is never going to be an issue. the bard can do most of the following while maintaining a single class
Yade 11-02-04, 02:35 PM	just list the abilities that you would like me to compare to another class. Like a cleric that is designed to buff or a wizard that is designed to buff. I know you are not crazy enough to believe that all bards can do all bardic abilities in all of the srd books. You would have to be crazy to believe that. I propose a logical test of the ideas presented here and you respond with something dismissive and silly. I take that as a win for me, thanks...
Kyuketsukiouji 11-02-04, 02:40 PM	Yade: You either do not understand the basics of the english language as applied to mathematics, or you're deliberately ignoring them in order to drive a fallacious point into the ground. The mathematics everyone else have stated are quite correct. If I roll twelve 20-sided dice, consecutively, there is a 46% chance that at least one of those dice rolls, out of the twelve, will come up 1. Note the emphasised areas here. 5% is for one roll. 46% is for the totality of all 12 rolls getting at least one 1. If you accept the fact that there is a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on a 20-sided dice, you cannot refute the previous statement. You just can't. You can try to as much as you want, but you are arguing against numbers, and the numbers don't care about your opinion. If I have a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on one dice, I cannot not have a bigger chance of rolling a 1 if I have more rolls. Every roll will have the same 5%, yes, but more rolls = more chance that at some point in there, a 1 will come up. On the bard thing: The whole "jack of trades master of none" thing might have been valid in 1st edition, but it's not true anymore. There are things now that the bard is master at, making other people look like chumps. 1- Diplomacy Bards are the masters of diplomacy, bar none. The closest contenders for that would be either a rogue or a paladin, but a rogue doesn't have the charisma, and a paladin doesn't have the skill points for it (and often has to sacrifice charisma for strength and constitution). A Bard will beat anyone else at negotiation and persuasion, period. And if that's not enough, a bard has built-in "cheats" aimed at making his diplomatic skills even better. Think Charm spells, Suggestion, Glibness... 2- Boosting allies. Level for level, Bards are better at this than anyone else. Including Clerics. Clerics have good boosts for themselves, yes, but not for everyone else, and not all at once, and not as many. A 1st level Bard with Extra Song can outbless a Cleric, and still have his spells left over. Vaalingrade Ashland's bard was a good examply of an intelligent use of this. "Call up summons, boost them, let them do your work" is a very viable use of this particular bard's strength. 3- Finding things out. Bards beat everyone at this, barring dangerous magic that can do bad things to you, like turning you into a drooling vegetable. Which is bad, when the guy contacting other planes was also the guy who could cast the healing spells. Bardic Knowledge is like "Knowledge: Everything". And it automatically goes up every level. At level 20, your bard casually whips obscures facts up all the time. Bards are no longer "masters of none".
Thorak 11-02-04, 02:42 PM	I do, believe it or not, understand what both of them are saying. Consequently Thorak we agree on everything that you have said except that the whole system is fallacious. And there was no need for you to correct my serial killer logic by agreeing with it, lol. I Assumed that everyone would see the fault in logic, and therefore felt no need to point it out. And I mentioned it because, while there was a fault in the logical argument you put up and I can identify and pick it out for all to see, I haven't seen anything from you regarding why you think the math is fallacious. Which is what I meant by "if you disagree, ask". Why do you think the math is fallacious? Get that out here so we can deal with the root of the problem, rather than flailing about regarding the math of it which you'll just deny based on this (I assume) faulty assumption you're holding.
Snommelp 11-02-04, 02:50 PM	I propose a logical test of the ideas presented here and you respond with something dismissive and silly. I take that as a win for me, thanks... Considering how often you dismiss the logic of others, let's call it a draw instead.
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 02:53 PM	Just list the abilities that you would like me to compare to another class. Like a cleric that is designed to buff or a wizard that is designed to buff. I know you are not crazy enough to believe that all bards can do all bardic abilities in all of the srd books. You would have to be crazy to believe that. First of all, look at my username.... Second, no I don't believe a bard can do all of the 100 things a bard could do. Third, any given bard can do about half the stuff a bard is supposed to be able to do. Fourth, you''ve already admitted that the bard is competing aginst more than one character, and "you respond with something dismissive and silly. I take that as a win for me, thanks..." So I'll say it again; 4- Versataility A rogue has more skill points than a bard, but any given bard will have better skill at the cha-related skills, and in any rank vs. rank competition, the bard will at least come out with a draw. During most skills, the bard can inspire competance as well, which makes up in part for having fewer skills, since he does them better.
Yade 11-02-04, 03:01 PM	Now we are getting somewhere, keep the list going and I will create a few buffing characters to compare. As far as the math goes. As much as I talk it can seem that I am more confident on that issue than I really am. If my math tutor can deal with my concerns then i will post it here. I am not above being wrong. Either way i will post why I believe it is fallacious or that i have changed my mind. I again ask for a few days on the issue. I truly understand what others are saying, I have made an educated decision to disagree. I also feel as though I have been very clear on why I disagree, read my posts you'll see.
nyysjan 11-02-04, 03:07 PM	this argument is useles me posting here is useles my opinion is useles i shall not post it here wich pretty much made this post useles
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 03:10 PM	just because serial killers like cookies doesn't mean the reverse. I just read this again, literally reversing it; "cookies like serial killers".... poor serial killers have nightmares of giant chocolate cookies coming to eat them... :rofl:
Mercurius 11-02-04, 03:31 PM	Okay, here's something I'm curious to see another character match the Bard at: 5 - Linguist The Bard has Speak Language as a class skill. The Bard only expends one skill point on every language he or she wants to know, and can know as many languages as 1 + bonus languages + INT modifier languages + (character level +3). He or she can use these languages fluently even in an antimagic zone. And he or she can pick up new ones at the drop of a hat. Even Tongues or Speak Language can't claim that.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-02-04, 03:37 PM	The math is so simple a 14 year old can do it. Goal: Roll 1 on a 4-sided dice. Method: Roll 1 dice. Results: (1), (2), (3), (4) Array: 1 success/3 failures Probability: 25% (1/4) Goal: Roll 1 on a 4-sided dice. Method: Roll 2 dice. Results: (1-1), (1-2), (1-3), (1-4), (2-1), (2-2), (2-3), (2-4), (3-1), (3-2), (3-3), (3-4), (4-1), (4-2), (4-3), (4-4). Array: 7 successes/9 failures Probability: 43.75 (7/16) Goal: Roll 1 on a 4-sided dice. Method: Roll 3 dice. Results: (1-1-1), (1-1-2), (1-1-3), (1-1-4), (1-2-1), (1-2-2), (1-2-3), (1-2-4), (1-3-1), (1-3-2), (1-3-3), (1-3-4), (1-4-1), (1-4-2), (1-4-3), (1-4-4), (2-1-1), (2-1-2), (2-1-3), (2-1-4), (2-2-1), (2-2-2), (2-2-3), (2-2-4), (2-3-1), (2-3-2), (2-3-3), (2-3-4), (2-4-1), (2-4-2), (2-4-3), (2-4-4), (3-1-1), (3-1-2), (3-1-3), (3-1-4), (3-2-1), (3-2-2), (3-2-3), (3-2-4), (3-3-1), (3-3-2), (3-3-3), (3-3-4), (3-4-1), (3-4-2), (3-4-3), (3-4-4), (4-1-1), (4-1-2), (4-1-3), (4-1-4), (4-2-1), (4-2-2), (4-2-3), (4-2-4), (4-3-1), (4-3-2), (4-3-3), (4-3-4), (4-4-1), (4-4-2), (4-4-3), (4-4-4) Array: 37 successes/27 failures Probability: 57.8125 (37/64) There. No advanced math, no wierd symbols, nothing but plain counting and division. Believe me, or I'll post the whole bloody 12 d20 array.
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 03:45 PM	There. No advanced math, no wierd symbols, nothing but plain counting and division. Believe me, or I'll post the whole bloody 12 d20 array. :mad: let him talk with the math guy about it, it's not like you can't live without him agreeing.
crazysamaritan 11-02-04, 03:48 PM	Even Tongues or Speak Language can't claim that.Well, technically, tounges can, as they can speak any language they want. Comprehend language allows them to understand any language. It's just the bard doesn't have to use a spell slot.
Mercurius 11-02-04, 03:51 PM	Well, technically, tounges can, as they can speak any language they want. Comprehend language allows them to understand any language. It's just the bard doesn't have to use a spell slot. And it works in an antimagic field or civilization where magic is hated.
Thermanshs 11-02-04, 04:15 PM	6-Mind Control: Bards are as known the best enchanters. Not only do they have all mind control arcane spells into their list but they also have higher charisma than wizzies do so that they can force charmed creatures much easier and they also have this godly fascinating ability. Who can withstand such an insane will DC? Keep in mind that if you try min/maxing to achieve it then I'm gonna do the same for my bard ;) Just fascinate a creature and you've another guy on your side since suggestion is automatically placed afterwards! 7-Bards have no enemies: This is supposed to happen if a bard is properly ran by an experienced and clever player. Are you still wondering how the heck this may happen? Think about all their deceptive skills and spells...bluff,disguise,forgery,glibness ,disguise self,undetectable alignment,charm and......KNOWLEDGE...the key to power!
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-02-04, 04:24 PM	You're playing with Chaos Theory there and the whole theory gets ripped to shreds once you go quantum. Probability is the basis for most physics. Without the laws of probability at work, you'd collapse under the weight of your component molecules.
fractal 11-02-04, 05:45 PM	You're playing with Chaos Theory there and the whole theory gets ripped to shreds once you go quantum. Probability is the basis for most physics. Without the laws of probability at work, you'd collapse under the weight of your component molecules. What exactly are you talking about? I don't see anyone mentioning Chaos Theory or even physics at all, really. Thorak - 20^12 = 2^12*10^12= 4.096*10^15, which is 4 Quadrillion, not 8. Not that it really makes any difference. Yade - Thorak and ThoughtfulOwl both said this already, but the chance of two independent events happening at the same time is the product of the chances of each of them happening at all(*). Combine this with the two assumptions previously mentioned, and .95^12 follows naturally. However, if you doubt the veracity of our results, don't take our word for it. Write a simple program on a calculator or computer to generate a hundred or a thousand sets of 12d20, and count how many of them contain at least one 1. See if our prediction resembles the results you get. * My current Statistics course has made pretty heavy use of this result, as well as the ability to factor the joint probability distribution into separate distributions when the variables are independent. If you claim it has no basis in reality, as well as not believing you, I would also be likely to be annoyed (if I took you that seriously, which I don't), at being told that I've been wasting the last couple months of my life.
Mercurius 11-02-04, 06:13 PM	This was said about three pages ago, but it's clearly been forgotten. This math thing has gone on for far, far longer than it should have. The answer is 46%. It has been corroborated by many sources and never refuted. I've said it earlier, but this really has to stop. So: S T O P ! No more math. Capishe? If Yade still doesn't get it and he doesn't want to ask/email a probabilities proferssor or something, FINE. It's wholley immaterial.
fractal 11-02-04, 06:33 PM	This was said about three pages ago, but it's clearly been forgotten. But the math is most of the fun. No offense to Bards, but probability is much more interesting than they are. :)
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-02-04, 06:42 PM	What exactly are you talking about? I don't see anyone mentioning Chaos Theory or even physics at all, really. I failed to refresh after Yade's last post about how some people say Probability can't predict anything. That whole assertion is a long ago discarded tenet of Chaos Theory.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-02-04, 06:43 PM	However, if you doubt the veracity of our results, don't take our word for it. Write a simple program on a calculator or computer to generate a hundred or a thousand sets of 12d20, and count how many of them contain at least one 1. See if our prediction resembles the results you get. Why bother? Just write down a table of all possible results of 12 d20 rolls like I did with the d4s and count the number of possibles that contain at least one 1 result, and divide that by the total number of different possibilities. You'll need a big piece of paper, but in the end, you'll have an absolute value.
Snommelp 11-02-04, 06:54 PM	I failed to refresh after Yade's last post about how some people say Probability can't predict anything. That whole assertion is a long ago discarded tenet of Chaos Theory. Choas Theory? ...Sierpinski Triangle! ...Anyways, that just gave me an idea. A bard/wizard mathemathician. Kind of like the best of Sir Isaac Newton and Shakespeare in one person.
fractal 11-02-04, 06:58 PM	Why bother? Just write down a table of all possible results of 12 d20 rolls like I did with the d4s and count the number of possibles that contain at least one 1 result, and divide that by the total number of different possibilities. You'll need a big piece of paper, but in the end, you'll have an absolute value. Not that I think there's any realistic chance of Yade doing either, but I was trying to make a constructive and reasonable suggestion. Telling him to write down ~10^17 numbers is not.
mercurywyrm 11-02-04, 07:21 PM	Boo! The bard sucks thread seems to have returned! I disagree allot with the title of this thread and wish for the thread to be combusted by Mercury Dragon light beams! :mad: On another note ~10^17 is allot of numbers! :P
Thorak 11-02-04, 09:04 PM	Why bother? Just write down a table of all possible results of 12 d20 rolls like I did with the d4s and count the number of possibles that contain at least one 1 result, and divide that by the total number of different possibilities. You'll need a big piece of paper, but in the end, you'll have an absolute value. Well, regardless of whether it's 80 quadrillion or 4 quadrillion (I slipped a decimal place, and either I'm doing 20^13, or Fractal's doing 20^11, and the point's immaterial, and I'm using Windows Calculator and hitting the button a lot so there's plenty room for error), if it took Yade 1 second to write a number, it would take him well over 100 million years to right out all the possible sets (assuming it's 4 quadrillion, 80 would be 2 billion plus). It's a heck of a lot faster to work out the math and teach it to chimpanzees, who might evolve to be capable of understanding it within that time sooner than you could write it out longhand. Now, I'm all for helping chimps evolve. But we don't have that kind of time, realistically.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 11-03-04, 02:02 AM	I recently ran a campaign of five or so bards (I wanted to see what my fav class could do). I put them in a city... with each of them rolling three perform checks an hour and getting the average of the day's earnings, I found that the suggestions of the monetary awards in the PHB did not go high enough to handle the critical success bonuses (+10 to the check in my campaigns on a natural 20, to account for an out-friggin-standing chance occurance of a great success, balanced with -10 critical failure on a natural 1) with an astonishingly small ammount of critical failures. The average for the five bards topped a perform check of 42 for one day, to which I awarded 3d10 GP per player per hour to account for the extreme size and affluence of the city in question, over a period of 8 hours. They raked it in. Later that same campaign, I pitted them against an EL 20+ encounter of Dryads just for laughs... and I was fairly angry when their combined diplomacy checks (and bluff checks) got them out of it with a group of friends above EL20... At the time the party was still level 3 across the board, for a total EL8. Granted, I'm not the best DM there ever was, but I didn't just fall off the truck yesterday. No other group of classes could have pulled off what these bards did in congress, and even more remarkable is I had two players in that campaign who had never played before, and a third who thought that all bludgeoning weapons did subdual damage (yes, I even argued that the Greatclub does bludgeoning damage, but he was unphased). Say what you will about the inherant weaknesses and strengths of the Sorcerror or the Fighter or the Paladin, but the Bard is an inherantly rounded character capable of wearing any hat it's needed to, and a few hats no other class could realistically EVER wear... And a little proposition: Xena, Warrior Princess with at least one level in Bard. She enters battle singing, she seemingly knows a little bit about everything through tales she's heard in her travels, is clearly chaotic, and yes, has even cast a spell or two without divine support (with the Amazons she did cast some shamanistic spells, apparantly not praying to ANY patron deity).
Roxlimn 11-03-04, 05:44 AM	To Everyone but Yade: Yade's refusal to accept the facts you know to be true do not make you less knowledgeable. If a fool were to tell you that the sun is pink, would you believe him? For all you know, he could be some mutant and he does see the sun as pink. There is no need to belabor the point, and no need to educate Yade on basic math. If his teachers can't help him, then it's his problem, not yours, not mine, and even if it were, it isn't the topic of this thread. To Yade: Believing in divine intervention in the case of dice is your choice to make, and no one can prove you wrong to yourself if you choose not to believe. However, harping on the mathematical points is derailing the thread and I don't suppose any parties want to see it over and done before you get to express your other ideas. Why not post those ideas instead?
CaoSlayer 11-03-04, 05:49 AM	I completely disagree with you, but then again, I'm predjudiced. je je je, you are right... there is some options that makes clerics interesting like a cleric of Tymora or Sune, but those arent archtypes clerics... and neither core.
CaoSlayer 11-03-04, 06:21 AM	ummm, for doing all those stupid maths faster, you should use a computer... most programing languages includes random numbers generators that can be set in a range and are pretty acurate. then you need a loop sentence, let´s say a million of times then get the computer to generate 12 numbers between 1 and 20 and check if at least one is a 1 then add a 1 to a variable and when the loop it is finished, check that the variable should have a value close to our asumption of 460,000 or your of 160,000. in Java the code should be something like this public long fascinating(long checks) { long result = 0; for (i=0;i<checks;i++) { Random rnd = new Math.Random(); boolean rolled_an_one = false; for (int j=0;j<12;j++) { if (rnd.nextInt(20) ==0) { rolled_an_one = true; } } if (rolled_an_one) { result++; } //close if } //close for j } //close for i return result; } //end of the method this method can be easily translated to any programing language... curiously, this way to check probs. have a name... I will check it later.
Thermanshs 11-03-04, 08:37 AM	Caoslayer...totally off topic but you forgot to subsume your method inside a class :D
CaoSlayer 11-03-04, 10:02 AM	that was implicy... also that you need also to add a main sentence body use the funtion with a number of checks and then print the result in screen :P I miss programing in Java since I passed the college´s exam.
Yade 11-03-04, 10:50 AM	To Everyone but Yade: Yade's refusal to accept the facts you know to be true do not make you less knowledgeable. If a fool were to tell you that the sun is pink, would you believe him? For all you know, he could be some mutant and he does see the sun as pink. There is no need to belabor the point, and no need to educate Yade on basic math. If his teachers can't help him, then it's his problem, not yours, not mine, and even if it were, it isn't the topic of this thread. To Yade: Believing in divine intervention in the case of dice is your choice to make, and no one can prove you wrong to yourself if you choose not to believe. However, harping on the mathematical points is derailing the thread and I don't suppose any parties want to see it over and done before you get to express your other ideas. Why not post those ideas instead? Oh I love piety, it falls so hard. The math department when I presented the equation to them could not solve it until I gave them the variables. Meaning that I had to supply the number of times that the one would theoretically come up. Because without foreknowledge of the variable there is no way to determine the outcome. Sound familiar, in every example that you guys have supplied you have had to fill in the variable due to the fact that there was no way to determine a percentage without already knowing the results. I have very logically argued that there is no way to predict chance or probability, and this simply confirms it. I asked for a few days Rox so get off your soap box and wait. Believing in divine intervention in the case of dice is your choice to make This is an asinine statement that is totally irrelevant to all of my arguments. I have, numerous times, tried to stop the math posts, on several occasions I have replied with something on topic and ignored the mathies, but they keep coming back to it.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-03-04, 10:58 AM	In any case, this ought to be dropped completely. I've played bards and non-bards. I'm satisfied that it has been clearly demonstrated the Bard is not a second rate core class, but instead a solid class with some proeminent, and often unique, strengths. I will gladly pit an equal-level bard against any other core class, and have a reasonable chance of success in battle. Out of battle, I will crush anyone I'm opposed to, barring either Sorcerers or Charisma-focussed Paladins.
Thorak 11-03-04, 11:16 AM	Oh I love piety, it falls so hard. The math department when I presented the equation to them could not solve it until I gave them the variables. Meaning that I had to supply the number of times that the one would theoretically come up. Because without foreknowledge of the variable there is no way to determine the outcome. The variable they needed was the chance of a 1 appearing. Which is 1 in 20. Or 5%. Making a not-one 95%. Whoever you presented it to probably didn't realize what a 20-sided die was, so asked you for this probability to work it out. Yes, you need the probability of a single occurence to work out the probability in a set. But we have the former, so we can work out the latter.
Naeron 11-03-04, 11:37 AM	Oh I love piety, it falls so hard. The math department when I presented the equation to them could not solve it until I gave them the variables. Meaning that I had to supply the number of times that the one would theoretically come up. Because without foreknowledge of the variable there is no way to determine the outcome. Sound familiar, in every example that you guys have supplied you have had to fill in the variable due to the fact that there was no way to determine a percentage without already knowing the results. I have very logically argued that there is no way to predict chance or probability, and this simply confirms it. I asked for a few days Rox so get off your soap box and wait. This is an asinine statement that is totally irrelevant to all of my arguments. I have, numerous times, tried to stop the math posts, on several occasions I have replied with something on topic and ignored the mathies, but they keep coming back to it. I too doubt your statement that you needed to supply the maths department with both the starting variables and the result for them to work it out. Probably because the maths is based on hard facts rather than a judgement or opinion of the relative usefulness of a classes power in a game where there are so many variables. But I also think its because you are making an erroneous statement that can be proved as such, and have been done so by typing the possible results rather than just using a formula, and we on the boards like such opportunities to prove our perceived superiority and thus, perhaps, stoke our egos. The mathematics of probability is entirely accurate within the limitation that it is predicting the probable outcome of an event defined by known variables. It cannot accurately predict the actual outcome of an single occurence of that event except in terms of probability and it admits to such a limitation. Were you to roll a d20 ten thousand times probability theory predicts that the chance that there would be at least one result of 1 among the results is so close to being 1 that its almost certain, but note that it only says "almost certain" as it does predict a tiny (as in over 200 decimal places) percentage chance that it will not happen. By giving that small chance that it will not happen it admits that it is possible that in any given test of the event you might roll only numbers that are 2 or greater, but it is highly improbable that this event may occur. It also admits that it is entirely possible that you may roll a 1 49 times or 51 times. So the 54% probability that you would roll a 1 and fail that save out of 12 attempted saves is entirely accurate as a statement of probability. It is not a statement of the definite result of rolling a set of 12 dice. This is the real reason why people cite so much confusion in the application of probabilities in real life. People assume that if probability says that there would be 5 1's in 100 rolls that there will be 5 1's or that if its the 99th roll and there have been no 1's that a 1 is an near certainty, its not, its still a 5% chance on the 99th roll and a 5% chance of the 100th roll. But the probability remains that in 100 rolls of a d20 the chance of rolling at least one result of 1 is over 99%.
crazysamaritan 11-03-04, 11:46 AM	je je je, you are right... there is some options that makes clerics interesting like a cleric of Tymora or Sune, but those arent archtypes clerics... and neither core. If we're going out of the core rules, then clerics are definetly more powerful than any other class. Druid and mages come close, but clerics definetly have the advantage over almost everyone else. This is, however, a topic for another thread. What are we on? 8? Perform Bards, naturally, are very good at entertaining people. The wide variety of perform skills allows for great variation within a band of bards. One can be skilled at drumming, a soul-stirring march. Another can play the lute, a heart-pulling melody. A third can sing, of course, while another interjects jokes and insults that encourage and clam his allies, while disturbing and unnerving their opponents.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-03-04, 12:17 PM	Considering that this thread was a bad idea from the title, I think its outlived its usefulness by a measure of hundreds of times.
CaoSlayer 11-03-04, 12:44 PM	Considering that this thread was a bad idea from the title, I think its outlived its usefulness by a measure of hundreds of times. sshhhh... regonize that you missed to have a "bards sucks" topic around here since 3.5 :P it is fun always that you dont carry it personally and of course, most the topics here are useless. ------- crazy dude: I was talking about the fun factor... umm, I dont think that three dudes playing instruments or singing it is worse that having three clerics praying to their own god at once. (specially if one it is lawful good, the other chaotic evil and the third true neutral)
Yade 11-03-04, 01:07 PM	Double Post
Yade 11-03-04, 01:09 PM	Yes, you need the probability of a single occurence to work out the probability in a set. But we have the former, so we can work out the latter. Respectfully speaking Thorak, this is the exact reason why I am not sold on probability. The field of statistics and probability is inundated in words like, chance, likely, probably etc..., and all of these represent the inherrent instability of the system used to derive these numbers. When there are multiple outcomes, and the occurance of any given one is the same, to predict a pattern within becomes highly speculative. I assure you that I am not simply espousing divine intervention or an irrational lack of faith in math, as some others have implied. The mathematics of probability is entirely accurate within the limitation that it is predicting the probable outcome of an event defined by known variables. It cannot accurately predict the actual outcome of an single occurence of that event except in terms of probability and it admits to such a limitation Nicely saied Naeron, basically if you know the answer ahead of time you can get the problem right, but most math forms start with a variable and then you solve to get the variable, this is impossible with probability math. 2x + 5 = 17, the variable there is easy to determine, I do not need to give it to you in order for you to solve the problem. In the case of the out come of 12 rolls on a D20 the variable has to be pre-determined for the math to work which is why its fallable, because only a psychic knows what is going to happen for sure, the rest of us are speculating. Hence the inherent assumption of probability math. If we're going out of the core rules, then clerics are definetly more powerful than any other class. Druid and mages come close, but clerics definetly have the advantage over almost everyone else. This is, however, a topic for another thread. I agree Crazy so I wont go there, but I wanted people to be able to find bard abilities that were outside the basic core books. I am thinking of making a role-playing rogue and a charismatic cleric to present. I have already created one character that beats three of the bard categories all by himself. I will list them tomorrow night when I get home and have had a chance to look over the books again. Preview: my elven rogue has every knowledge skill in the book and knows every language a bard can (based on PHB languages) and also has a higher diplomatic ability than any bard. FYI: I am not using magic items, although I should because people feel as though they are a part. I am using the same stats that Vaal and I agreed upon and I am constructing a 12th level character.
CaoSlayer 11-03-04, 01:29 PM	I agree Crazy so I wont go there, but I wanted people to be able to find bard abilities that were outside the basic core books. I am thinking of making a role-playing rogue and a charismatic cleric to present. I have already created one character that beats three of the bard categories all by himself. I will list them tomorrow night when I get home and have had a chance to look over the books again. lol!! this is funny, then explain me how can deal with drows when drows attack elves at sight.
crazysamaritan 11-03-04, 01:31 PM	lol!! this is funny, then explain me how can deal with drows when drows attack elves at sight.Wait till he post his builds... :smirk: then we can tear them apart. ;) Oh, and I'm going to suggest that Vow of Poverty is off-limits. Since it's really items from a feat.
Thorak 11-03-04, 02:43 PM	Respectfully speaking Thorak, this is the exact reason why I am not sold on probability. The field of statistics and probability is inundated in words like, chance, likely, probably etc..., and all of these represent the inherrent instability of the system used to derive these numbers. When there are multiple outcomes, and the occurance of any given one is the same, to predict a pattern within becomes highly speculative. I assure you that I am not simply espousing divine intervention or an irrational lack of faith in math, as some others have implied. Yes. There's inherent instability. Probability cannot, outside of a 0% or 100% chance, predict anything with any accuracy. None of us, certainly not myself, suggested you could. We're talking about the probability. Probability isn't about specific occurrences, it's about the chances surrounding them. To pick up somebody else's example, when the weather report says there's a 70% chance of rain, and it doesn't rain, the weather report wasn't wrong. This one time just happened to fall into the 30% chance it wouldn't rain. And with 12 rolls of a 20 sided dice, 46% of all possible combinations you could roll have a 1 in them somewhere. 54% do not. That's all we're saying; about half of the potential sets you could roll would have a 1. This doesn't mean you will or won't roll a 1, and the odds will change with each die you actually roll. Nicely saied Naeron, basically if you know the answer ahead of time you can get the problem right, but most math forms start with a variable and then you solve to get the variable, this is impossible with probability math. 2x + 5 = 17, the variable there is easy to determine, I do not need to give it to you in order for you to solve the problem. In the case of the out come of 12 rolls on a D20 the variable has to be pre-determined for the math to work which is why its fallable, because only a psychic knows what is going to happen for sure, the rest of us are speculating. Hence the inherent assumption of probability math. You're talking about algebra, Yade. We're talking about probability. Two different branches of math. Probability doesn't need a variable. It just needs formulas, and chances.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-03-04, 03:36 PM	sshhhh... regonize that you missed to have a "bards sucks" topic around here since 3.5 :P eh, its always 'bards suck, fighters suck, sorcerers suck' but the truth it its just trolls that suck.
Yade 11-03-04, 04:49 PM	You're talking about algebra, Yade. We're talking about probability. Two different branches of math. Probability doesn't need a variable. It just needs formulas, and chances. Tell me about how the math problem that we have been discussing does not have a variable in it. All mathematical formulas have variables, and most mathematical formulas do not have chance in their result. This is why there are eucated people out there that give no credence to probability or statistics, it's more based upon conjecture and opinion than on real numbers.
Cross Hatch 11-03-04, 05:11 PM	Tell me about how the math problem that we have been discussing does not have a variable in it. All mathematical formulas have variables, and most mathematical formulas do not have chance in their result. This is why there are eucated people out there that give no credence to probability or statistics, it's more based upon conjecture and opinion than on real numbers. Are there educated people out there who give no credence to probability or statistics? Can you name one? Please, name just one person who is considered an expert by his peers in any learned field (anything that requires at least a Master's degree) who gives no credence to probability or statistics.
Fingers Boggis 11-03-04, 05:29 PM	Perform Bards, naturally, are very good at entertaining people. The wide variety of perform skills allows for great variation within a band of bards. One can be skilled at drumming, a soul-stirring march. Another can play the lute, a heart-pulling melody. A third can sing, of course, while another interjects jokes and insults that encourage and clam his allies, while disturbing and unnerving their opponents. I was going to leave this post alone, like many others nnon doubt, ive read it but id told myself i wasnt gong to post, tihs post however lead me in. ave you ever heard/seen any performances of the rat pack in there prime were jokes would fly (particularly between sinatra and martin) and it would only improve the level of enjoyment for all involved, definately an example of what you're talking about Fingers
Snommelp 11-03-04, 06:19 PM	eh, its always 'bards suck, fighters suck, sorcerers suck' but the truth it its just trolls that suck. Are you kidding? Trolls are awesome! They regenerate, they have a decent LA... unless you were talking about those fire-breathing trolls. I hate them. They just keep coming back and never die.
Thorak 11-03-04, 06:37 PM	Tell me about how the math problem that we have been discussing does not have a variable in it. All mathematical formulas have variables, and most mathematical formulas do not have chance in their result. This is why there are eucated people out there that give no credence to probability or statistics, it's more based upon conjecture and opinion than on real numbers. 2+2=4 That's a mathematical formula. There are no variables. If you like, the equation in question is X^Y. X is the probability of any one occurence in a set, and Y is the number of repetitions. We know both for your question; the probability of not rolling a one is 95%, and there's 12 rolls. X=0.95 Y=12 0.95^12=0.54 54% chance of not rolling a one. Meaning there's a 46% chance of rolling a one. There are variables. We just know what values we want to work them out for.
Carpe DM 11-03-04, 06:47 PM	I can't believe there's been 631 messages on this thread. That's 0.56% of all the messages in the entire classes thread grouping. The funniest thing is, I would wager that less than 100 messages in this whole thread actually had any real relevance as to whether or not bards are useless. I'm not knocking anybody, I just think it's funny. I should start a thread called "ELFS R TEH GEYEST EVAR" and see how many people respond to it. LOL Actually I bet that thread would just get deleted. Eh. Anyway, I'm pretty sure this has been discussed to death. In particular the math part...I mean...seriously. I know we're all a bunch of nerds by default because we play D&D (hey, being a nerd isn't bad anyway), but do we -really- have to compound it by talking about D&D and Math in the same thread? That's like double nerd-dom. Here we go, I'll make it triple nerd-dom: OMG!! Has anyone ever noticed that in Star Trek TNG, Season 3, Episode 2 (Production #149) "The Ensigns of Command", that during the scene where Captain Picard and Counselor Troi board the Sheliak vessel to negotiate, Counselor Troi has a HUGE frickin cameltoe? The camera zooms pretty close on it, too. They HAD to have noticed it. I bet they left it in on purpose. I'm surprised Marina Sirtis hasn't sued them over it. Then again, maybe she LIKED it. Rrrrrowr! ....okay, so we now officially have D&D, Math, and Star Trek all in one thread. Yay nerds! Woo! Who's got something else nerdy to add?
BlaineTog 11-03-04, 07:48 PM	Who's got something else nerdy to add?Deckard is not a replicant. (We spent a week debating this in Philosophy class. No bull). Han Solo shot first. 7 of 9 is hotter than Deanna Troi. The Lady of Pain is NOT CN.
Sensei Gith 11-03-04, 08:42 PM	Deckard is not a replicant. (We spent a week debating this in Philosophy class. No bull). Han Solo shot first. 7 of 9 is hotter than Deanna Troi. The Lady of Pain is NOT CN. Who's Deckard? BTW, Batman pwns Superman. Like, totally. This is why there are eucated people out there that give no credence to probability or statistics, it's more based upon conjecture and opinion than on real numbers. If you would read a book on the matter, you would most likely find an extensive variety of proofs in addition to the ones already posted. Honestly, it's been logically proven right before your eyes, no conjecture and no opinion— only an axiom (the equipartition principle) and a bit of basic math. What more do you want? A signed letter from Euclid?
The Grinning Pint 11-03-04, 08:46 PM	Deckard is not a replicant. (We spent a week debating this in Philosophy class. No bull). This confirms my theories that Blaines life is wierder than mine. :P
DomYorio 11-03-04, 09:01 PM	Are there educated people out there who give no credence to probability or statistics? Can you name one? Please, name just one person who is considered an expert by his peers in any learned field (anything that requires at least a Master's degree) who gives no credence to probability or statistics. I have a Masters degree, or will in a few weeks. I don't giva a :censored: about probability or statistics. My common sence answers all of the questions one would need to make it in this world. I understand it, I understand why it is used, but it is not a part of my imagination or gameplay or life decisions. Thats just the way I am. Most people on this board are not. I have nothing wrong with that, but just because someone is different from you does not give you the right to persecute ones beliefs. I am backing up Yade, for the fact that he chooses to disagree with what everyone on this board takes as FACT. If you do not have any belief in the system then why would one believe in what you are trying to force feed. I know it goes both ways so both parties need to just give it a rest. As for Batman always beats Superman. NO(with sarcasm). I am a big Batman freak but Batman is HUMAN, Superman is THE MAN OF STEEL. Who do you think wins! Superman can't die, Batman can. :D
BlaineTog 11-03-04, 09:06 PM	Who's Deckard?*shakes head in empathic shame* Educate yourself (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0790729628/qid=1099533929/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-0957112-4356026?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846). This confirms my theories that Blaines life is wierder than mine. :pHeh heh heh... I am a big Batman freak but Batman is HUMAN, Superman is THE MAN OF STEEL. Who do you think wins! Superman can't die, Batman can. :DBatman may be human, but he had Kryptonite. :D And if he has Febreeze in his utility belt (and you know he does), it's all over.
DomYorio 11-03-04, 09:26 PM	Batman may be human, but he had Kryptonite. :D And if he has Febreeze in his utility belt (and you know he does), it's all over. hahahah. Thats great. One thing though. When has Superman not defeated a foe that used Kryptonite? Batman has really died in the comics. Superman was just misplaced, when he was supposed to be dead after having his donkey kicked by Doomsday.
Nithendil 11-03-04, 11:43 PM	If you deny the importance of statistics, then medicine and psychology should hold no value to you, as each of those fields is dependent on probability. Any drug or innovative surgery that is approved passes a plethora of statistical battery.
Yade 11-04-04, 12:31 AM	If you deny the importance of statistics, then medicine and psychology should hold no value to you, as each of those fields is dependent on probability. Any drug or innovative surgery that is approved passes a plethora of statistical battery. Sure, probability has its place, but it is not used to definitively dertermine anything. Professionals do not look for absolutes in it. 2+2=4 That's a mathematical formula. There are no variables. No its not a formula, its an equation. If it were a formula there would be 5 potential variables in it. Here is the response of my first math tutorial on the issue: From what I see, this is considered a Bernoulli trial. The probability of success for each draw is p = 0.05, so the probability of 'failure' for each draw is q = 0.95. The probability of drawing the coin from the bag x times over 12 draws is (12Cx)(0.05)^x(0.95)^(12-x). The number 12Cx can be found from the 12th row of Pascal's triangle 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 1 4 6 4 1 1 5 10 10 5 1 (Each row is formed by starting and ending with 1, and adding two adjacent numbers in the previous row to get the inside numbers. I am omitting the top row, which just has a single 1, because that would be the zeroth row by the way I am counting rows) There are two numbers in the first row, three numbers in the second row,and so on. There will be 13 numbers in the 12th row. It would look like 1 12 66 220 495 792 924 792 495 220 66 12 1 Most calculators have a nCr button, so you can type in 12nCr0 = 1 12nCr1 = 12 12nCr2 = 66 12nCr3 = 220 etc. Since the probability of drawing the coin from the bag x times over 12 draws is (12Cx)(0.05)^x(0.95)^(12-x), the Prob(drawing the coin from the bag 0 times over 12 draws) = 1(0.05)^0(0.95)^12 = 0.54036 Prob(drawing the coin from the bag 1 time over 12 draws) = 12(0.05)^1(0.95)^1 = 0.34128 Prob(drawing the coin from the bag 2 times over 12 draws) = 66(0.05)^2(0.95)^10 = 0.09879 Prob(drawing the coin from the bag 3 times over 12 draws) = 220(0.05)^3(0.95)^9 = 0.01733 etc. (The probability decreases to zero) The probability of picking the coin all 12 times is = 1(0.05)^12(0.95)^0 = (1/20)^12 = 2.44x10^-16 = 0.000000000000000244 Also, the probability that you have not drawn the coin at all in n attempts is (0.95)^n So after 4 draws, there is a (0.95)^4 = 0.8145 chance you have not drawn the coin at least once. After 12 draws, there is a (0.95)^12 = 0.54036 chance you have not drawn the coin at least once (0 successes). The other two professors came up with different answers one of them took a binomial approach which I will clarify later and the other has yet to get back to me. I am working on the class comparisons, I have been pretty busy so I will need time to get back to you on that. But I am making progress.
Snommelp 11-04-04, 12:43 AM	I have a Masters degree, or will in a few weeks. I don't giva a :censored: about probability or statistics. My common sence answers all of the questions one would need to make it in this world. I understand it, I understand why it is used, but it is not a part of my imagination or gameplay or life decisions. Thats just the way I am. Most people on this board are not. I have nothing wrong with that, but just because someone is different from you does not give you the right to persecute ones beliefs. I am backing up Yade, for the fact that he chooses to disagree with what everyone on this board takes as FACT. If you do not have any belief in the system then why would one believe in what you are trying to force feed. I know it goes both ways so both parties need to just give it a rest. There is a difference between "persecuting ones beliefs" and trying to have an educated discussion about the field of mathematics. Also, if I may ask, what are you getting your Masters in? As for Batman always beats Superman. NO(with sarcasm). I am a big Batman freak but Batman is HUMAN, Superman is THE MAN OF STEEL. Who do you think wins! Superman can't die, Batman can. :D Batman's superpower is he has money. Superman's superpowers are, among other things, immortality and super strength. I agree, the Bat loses.
DomYorio 11-04-04, 01:09 AM	Music Performance. I agree with the educated conversation, but most of the post are trying to ram information down peoples throught. I dont take anything seriously that way. As to the medical post. If you notice most products that are out there are not 100% effective. Its nice to know that you can Probably not get something, or cure, or whatever but who cares the percent when its the outcome that you can ONLY HOPE will happen. Yes a few things have become almost terminated but nothing has been completly stoped, 100%. Even Polio is still around, TB and more. If there are cures to everything we will never see it. The gov. and medical community make no money for the cure, the money is in the medicine. So if there is anything 100% we will never know 100%. I hate stats just give me facts.
Thorak 11-04-04, 01:16 AM	Sure, probability has its place, but it is not used to definitively dertermine anything. Professionals do not look for absolutes in it. I, at least, was never talking about absolutes. I was talking about probabilities and likelihoods. Here is the response of my first math tutorial on the issue: "After 12 draws, there is a (0.95)^12 = 0.54036 chance you have not drawn the coin at least once (0 successes)." I'd just like to note that this is what I and others have been saying all along. We just inverted the probability to 46%, that being the chance you have drawn the 'coin' at least once.
Snommelp 11-04-04, 01:33 AM	Heh, looks like Cross Hatched made a mistake asking for someone with a Masters in any field... and now I feel kind of stupid, because I just read back through the thread a bit and you already said that you were a trombonist working on your Master's degree. I have an excuse, though: I'm crazy.
Psyker Nel'Restynn 11-04-04, 01:51 AM	Play a big Nordic barbarian-type, use a giant axe and sing great war-dirges to inspire your comrades and terrify your foes as you hew and slaughter. HAHA RIGHT ON!! Thats my character summed up beautifully!!
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-04-04, 03:07 AM	Are you kidding? Trolls are awesome! They regenerate, they have a decent LA... unless you were talking about those fire-breathing trolls. I hate them. They just keep coming back and never die. Yeah, half troll drider wizards. You know, they han around on the web and constantly using fireball to spread flames.
boytbpc 11-04-04, 03:48 AM	*shakes head in empathic shame* Educate yourself (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0790729628/qid=1099533929/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-0957112-4356026?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846). Heh heh heh... Batman may be human, but he had Kryptonite. :D And if he has Febreeze i n his utility belt (and you know he does), it's all over. I was disapointed to see the link to Blade Runner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0790729628/qid=1099533929/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-0957112-4356026?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846) Blaine. In the original (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345404475/qid=1099557885/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0467391-0683954?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) the possibility of Deckard being a replicant is explored more. I believe he is, and they don't ride off into the sunset together. Boytbpc
Cross Hatch 11-04-04, 04:23 AM	I have a Masters degree, or will in a few weeks. I don't giva a :censored: about probability or statistics. My common sence answers all of the questions one would need to make it in this world. I understand it, I understand why it is used, but it is not a part of my imagination or gameplay or life decisions. Thats just the way I am. Most people on this board are not. I have nothing wrong with that, but just because someone is different from you does not give you the right to persecute ones beliefs. I am backing up Yade, for the fact that he chooses to disagree with what everyone on this board takes as FACT. If you do not have any belief in the system then why would one believe in what you are trying to force feed. I know it goes both ways so both parties need to just give it a rest. As for Batman always beats Superman. NO(with sarcasm). I am a big Batman freak but Batman is HUMAN, Superman is THE MAN OF STEEL. Who do you think wins! Superman can't die, Batman can. :D If you look at what I asked for, it wasn't anybody with a Master's degree. It was somebody considered to be an expert in a field which required, at least, a Master's degree. I was asking for somebody like Zimbardi in Psychology, Hawking in Physics, Levi-Straus in Sociology/Anthropology, etc. There's also a -big- difference in standing up for what one believes in and doing so by throwing out a bunch of errors. I come from an Anthropology background. You could easily come up with a new theory in Anthro - heck, I wrote a paper on Computational Anthropology about 7 years before CA was even recognized by the AAA. If someone were to argue from a theory that noone else accepted, but they were able to ground it in fact and reasoning, I'd respect him. That isn't whats happening here.
Naeron 11-04-04, 06:18 AM	Nicely saied Naeron, basically if you know the answer ahead of time you can get the problem right, but most math forms start with a variable and then you solve to get the variable, this is impossible with probability math. 2x + 5 = 17, the variable there is easy to determine, I do not need to give it to you in order for you to solve the problem. In the case of the out come of 12 rolls on a D20 the variable has to be pre-determined for the math to work which is why its fallable, because only a psychic knows what is going to happen for sure, the rest of us are speculating. Hence the inherent assumption of probability math. Your second statment is wrong, a large amount of applied maths gives you formulae where the values of all but one of the variables are known and used to determine the value of the final variable. You example of 2x+5 = 17 is not a common model in applied mathematics or probability theory. The probability formula is 1 - (x^n) = y where x is the chance of the required result for a given event not happening, n is the number of events that are being performed and y is the probability of that required result occuring in the number of events. This is not that conceptually different from the equation for electical power P = I * V. For any given values of I (current in Amps) and V (Voltage in Volts) you can determine the Power (in Watts) and if you have Power and Voltage you can determine Current etc. You don't solve the equation for Power, you use it to calculate the result from a known starting point and there are thousands of other mathematical formulae with applications in every day life that work in a similar way. And you seem to be mistaking what the relevant variables are in probability mathematics. The only variables that are relevant in our case is the chance of a given result occuring in a single event and the number of events in the set. We could use our 1 - (x^n) = y formula in a similar way to the very simple example you give. If we had 1-(x^12) = 0.4596...(I won't type the whole thing out) then we can work out from the probability and the number of events that the single event chance that we are talking about is 5% an example of which is rolling a 1 on a d20. So for a defined event, which in our case is the chance of rolling a 1 in 12d20 the formula can accurately predict the probability of the outcome based on the primary assumption that the dice is random and that it has 20 sides. From this experiment we are excluding other random probabilities because they are not part of the event. This formula also applies to other cases of calculating the chance of a result happening in a given set. If you wanted to calculate the chances of rolling a result of 4 or higher on 10d6 the formula allows you to do that (its 1 - [50% ^ 10] or 99.90234375%). Now a couple of posts have actually brute-forced the results (e.g. for coin flips) and have shown that the results match those predicted by the formula. This would show that the formula can be proven by experimentation as well as by mathematic rules which should indicate to you that it is correct. And having seen your latest post I see that is does support the result that you argued was wrong, as Thorak has said.
Snommelp 11-04-04, 11:06 AM	If you look at what I asked for, it wasn't anybody with a Master's degree. It was somebody considered to be an expert in a field which required, at least, a Master's degree. I was asking for somebody like Zimbardi in Psychology, Hawking in Physics, Levi-Straus in Sociology/Anthropology, etc. I would consider somebody with a Master's in music an expert in his field. Especially a trombonist; that instrument is harder than it looks. That said, I can understand why you're upset that someone who is an expert in a field mostly unrelated to statistics replied. After all, a trombonist could probably get by with very little knowledge of math and science, which is what is being debated here.
Mercurius 11-04-04, 11:45 AM	hahahah. Thats great. One thing though. When has Superman not defeated a foe that used Kryptonite? Batman has really died in the comics. Superman was just misplaced, when he was supposed to be dead after having his donkey kicked by Doomsday. Batman has successfully defeated Superman on at least the two occasions that I've read, and I don't bother with DC comics that often. While the most famous was Dark Knight Returns, he also did so in Hush (very recent). Also, he's just cooler. On the subject of bards, however, I still fail to see how they're useless. Returning to my linguist post a few pages back (#5 on the list of things Yade's supposed to be trumping us on), I had a player who decided to play a bard as her first ever character in the last D&D campaign I ran. Because it amused her, she invested all 10 skill points she could spend at character creation (higher level start out due to joining an ongoing campaign) in Speak Language and was quite literally the only character who could talk in some countries (since I'd abolished "common"). At one point, she had to do interparty translation, because at least two characters didn't share a common language (until one of them bought ranks in the other's language). Furthermore, her inspire courage ability was instrumental in many fights (and this was back when it was a flat +1 attack and damage), and her Whip Dagger proficiency (which she got for free) allowed her to stay far enough away from the thick of melee combat that she rarely was severely injured at the end of the day.
CaoSlayer 11-04-04, 12:57 PM	Sure [lot of stuff later] now check my post in this topic and you will found also the words bernoully(I will never learn this guy name) trial and binomial. you have wasted a lot of time asking them having the solution here. :P
Cross Hatch 11-04-04, 06:41 PM	I would consider somebody with a Master's in music an expert in his field. Especially a trombonist; that instrument is harder than it looks. That said, I can understand why you're upset that someone who is an expert in a field mostly unrelated to statistics replied. After all, a trombonist could probably get by with very little knowledge of math and science, which is what is being debated here. I wouldn't call them experts. There are a handful of truely great people in the field of trombone playing. I don't know who they are, but I'm guessing you do. Those are the people I'd call experts.
BlaineTog 11-04-04, 07:21 PM	I was disapointed to see the link to Blade Runner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0790729628/qid=1099533929/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-0957112-4356026?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846) Blaine.Arguing about movies is far geekier than arguing about books. Hence the postingage. :D In the original (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345404475/qid=1099557885/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0467391-0683954?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) the possibility of Deckard being a replicant is explored more.As my teacher said, it's probably best to think about the movie and the book as connected, but still different works of art (unlike how the LotR movies are virtually identicle to the Book, albeit run through the theatrical blender). I believe he is [a replicant]http://majik.be/smilies/angry.gif At least in the movie, he's human, because... *goes off topic*
Snommelp 11-04-04, 07:56 PM	I wouldn't call them experts. There are a handful of truely great people in the field of trombone playing. I don't know who they are, but I'm guessing you do. Those are the people I'd call experts. Unlike other fields, you can be a musical expert without a degree. However, it is also still possible to be an expert and have a degree. I repeat, the trombone is harder than it looks, and anybody willing to stick with it for the years needed for a Master's degree is an expert in my eye. On topic: I would love to see a party of, say, four bards and a paladin. The bards could be the diplomat, the healer, the "wizard," and the "rogue." The paladin is there to keep the bards in line and to be a meat shield. I believe that particular party would probably defeat most challenges quite well, as long as the paladin's code didn't get in the way. Perhaps we could replace the paladin with a fighting bard, with high Str, Dex, and Con instead of going for Cha first.
baerdith 11-04-04, 08:21 PM	On topic: I would love to see a party of, say, four bards and a paladin. The bards could be the diplomat, the healer, the "wizard," and the "rogue." The paladin is there to keep the bards in line and to be a meat shield. I believe that particular party would probably defeat most challenges quite well, as long as the paladin's code didn't get in the way. Perhaps we could replace the paladin with a fighting bard, with high Str, Dex, and Con instead of going for Cha first. Replace the Paladin with a Ranger and I think you could safely wrap up ANY encounter. The Pally has turn undead but if there are enough encounters with undead the Ranger would probably have favored enemy Undead.
Snommelp 11-04-04, 08:36 PM	Replace the Paladin with a Ranger and I think you could safely wrap up ANY encounter. The Pally has turn undead but if there are enough encounters with undead the Ranger would probably have favored enemy Undead. Brilliant! And, with the paladin gone, this group could be heroes, villains, mercenaries, or even just friends who had nothing better to do this week.
CaoSlayer 11-05-04, 03:48 AM	Replace the Paladin with a Ranger and I think you could safely wrap up ANY encounter. The Pally has turn undead but if there are enough encounters with undead the Ranger would probably have favored enemy Undead. nah, no needed... the cure X wounds spells are great for slaying undead... four cure serious wounds in a vampire would wipe him pretty fast.
Liox 11-05-04, 04:05 AM	eh, its always 'bards suck, fighters suck, sorcerers suck' but the truth it its just trolls that suck. Unless a Bard can start casting better spells, and some primary spells like Teleport Ressurect or stuff like that - He/she is quite a waste of time. Besides, whats the use- when Warlock comes out. All Arcane Classes are going to be non-existence soon right ?! Its probably Warlock vs Fighters. And unless you have leadership and your DM allows you to use your precious followers to die with you. Its quite pointless now right ?!! :(
Mercurius 11-05-04, 10:10 AM	Unless a Bard can start casting better spells, and some primary spells like Teleport Ressurect or stuff like that - He/she is quite a waste of time. He can though, through Use Magic Device. Besides, whats the use- when Warlock comes out. All Arcane Classes are going to be non-existence soon right ?! Its probably Warlock vs Fighters. And unless you have leadership and your DM allows you to use your precious followers to die with you. Its quite pointless now right ?!! :( What the devil are you talking about?
Slayer_5 11-05-04, 10:35 AM	Man, some of you guys REALLY need to get lives. I read 2 pages of math n trombone crap, and I couldnt make sense of ANY of it. Blaintog, you have made my weekend. im going to rent Bladerunner. And if you think about it, 1 bard saves EVERYONE 4 levels of fighter with +2 to attack n damage. And a long long time ago, when I first heard about the crap that was HeroClix *im a 40K player*, i made the comment of "I bet Superman wipes the floor everytime, prolly worse then a Monolith" of which the store owner Laughed his butt off claiming that Batman pops on kryptonite gloves and beats the crap out of superman EVERY time. Now heres a question for ya, Batman, Superman, or Ricky-Oh?
WizO_Catoblepas 11-09-04, 10:00 PM	Ok, let have less discussion about statistics and more on bards. Let's keep the thread on topic. Thanks.
Snommelp 11-09-04, 10:26 PM	I would just like to point out that, if you allow monster characters, the most powerful characters are usually Succubus or Nymph Bards. With a Nymph, it's like "if I can't fascinate you I'll just blind you instead." With the Succubus, it's fascinate, suggest a kiss, drain away.
crazysamaritan 11-09-04, 10:38 PM	With the Succubus, it's fascinate, suggest a kiss, drain away. yeah.... :inlove:
CaoSlayer 11-10-04, 06:11 AM	the trouble with a succubus bard it is the very high ECL... this spellcasting will be pityful (althrought will have very good DC) and will know very few songs. as usual with primary spellcasters, only +1 LA races are worth... Aasimars are a great option, +1 to char and wis without penalties and specially being able to adquire outsider shapes with alterself makes the lost level worth it.
CaoSlayer 11-10-04, 06:15 AM	the trouble with a succubus bard it is the very high ECL... this spellcasting will be pityful (althrought will have very good DC) and will know very few songs. as usual with primary spellcasters, only +1 LA races are worth... Aasimars are a great option, +1 to char and wis without penalties and specially being able to adquire outsider shapes with alterself makes the lost level worth it.
Snommelp 11-10-04, 11:38 AM	the trouble with a succubus bard it is the very high ECL... this spellcasting will be pityful (althrought will have very good DC) and will know very few songs. as usual with primary spellcasters, only +1 LA races are worth... Aasimars are a great option, +1 to char and wis without penalties and specially being able to adquire outsider shapes with alterself makes the lost level worth it. Don't succubi cast spells as sorcerers, as well? Kind of makes it like multi-classing spellcasters.
CaoSlayer 11-10-04, 01:02 PM	not, they dont. http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersD-De.rtf they just have some good spell-like stuff... good, but not too worth of a 12 ECL, a bard 20 would sweep the floor with a succubus 12 / bard 8 but anyway if rolling a 18, a level 20 suc/bard would have a charisma of 16 + 18 + 5 + 6(item) +5(wish,tomes) = 50 :eek: so a level 2 hold person would have a DC of 12+20 = 32
Snommelp 11-10-04, 05:00 PM	hmm... definitely not bad, but you're right, a Bard20 could mop the floor with her. If he could bring himself to destroy such a charismatic creature, that is.
CaoSlayer 11-11-04, 10:24 AM	he just have to cast a glibness spell and bluff himself: "I must kill her... and not in the sense that you are thinking now" which is the DC for bluffing yourself?
Yade 11-11-04, 12:14 PM	I am also curious about the warlock class that you mentioned. Succubus bard, sounds like fun, what would the level adjustment be though?
CaoSlayer 11-12-04, 05:05 AM	+6 LA If I recall it well... check it yourself in the link that I summited. also have 6 ratial hit dices, so for starting as a succubus you need to be a level 12 character... (also there is the ratial progretion of savage species)