Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wild Yapok 05-28-05, 08:26 PM	I just finished skimming the PHB spell lists, and discovered that Bards have a total of 10 spells that are exclusive to their class. 2x cantrips, 1x Level 1, NO Level 2, 3x Level 3, 2x Level 4, 1x Level 5, and 1x Level 6. Three questions come to mind from this... 1) Are there any good sources for large numbers of Bard exclusive spells? (I peaked in Complete Arcane, and found a measly 4 new Bard spells, with some of them - if not all - attainable by other classes!) 2) Would a significantly greater number of exclusive Bard spells make the class much more appealing to players? 3) Would somehow combining Perform checks and Save DC's (or as a means to beat Spell Resistance) for certain types of spells (particularly illusions or charming, etc.) be a feasible (and not too unbalancing) way to improve the Bard class? Cheers!
Razel 05-28-05, 09:52 PM	hmm, I don't know why so many people say that bards are weak. it has been a while since I've been in a group without a bard actualy. Bards can be increadably good if you know what your doing. As for bards having their own spells, I don't really see why they should. I mean bards are the jack of all trades but master of none. So why should they have access to something that noone else has access to. Bards seem, from their discription, to have something from stuff that all kinds of different people can use. If bards spent their time comeing up with there own stuff, they would be an entirely different class and not a jack of all trades. OH ya, and I think compleate adventuer is more there book then compleate arcana. I know it has a couple of bard spesific feats, and I think a few spells all their own, but I can't quite remember.
Jaid 05-28-05, 09:58 PM	bard unique spells also go by the name of bardic music. that should add at least a few more. and really, for the most part the only "bard only" type spells i can think of should deal with music... and that's about it. i mean, that's the only area where bards excel, and are better than anyone else... music. just how many music-themed spells do you think Wizards can come up with anyways?
Bard06 05-28-05, 10:09 PM	1) Are there any good sources for large numbers of Bard exclusive spells? (I peaked in Complete Arcane, and found a measly 4 new Bard spells, with some of them - if not all - attainable by other classes!) Well mutiple issues of dragon mag have some spells for the bard....but not really anything that big 2) Would a significantly greater number of exclusive Bard spells make the class much more appealing to players? I think not. I like the class as it right now. By adding a couple more spells that works with his music would be nice and may appeal to some people but would bring that much appeal. 3) Would somehow combining Perform checks and Save DC's (or as a means to beat Spell Resistance) for certain types of spells (particularly illusions or charming, etc.) be a feasible (and not too unbalancing) way to improve the Bard class? It may....but I not really getting what your saying here..But it comes back to what I said about changeing the class. I think its good how it is and I wouldn't change a thing! :) Hope that helps! -Bard06
Schmendrick 05-29-05, 03:17 AM	Don't neglect the fact that some of those bard-only spells are really awesome. Modify Memory means nobody in your party has to memorize things anymore - MM works like hypnosis to bring anything (up to 5 min) back. Sculpt Sound makes everybody (even the tin cans) stealthy without the telltale sphere of "deadzone" that accompanies Silence. And Zone of Silence is arguably the best [defensive] Silence-type spell in the game. I'm sure there are more, but I've forgotten...
Jaid 05-29-05, 10:25 AM	modify memory won't work to bring back spells, will it? you don't memorise spells, you prepare them. also, you have to envision the memory yourself... so, even if you could, it would be limited to spells you both know. but, since you can't, it's kinda a moot point. if this were previous editions, you might have a case for it (maybe).
Wild Yapok 05-29-05, 12:03 PM	As for bards having their own spells, I don't really see why they should. I mean bards are the jack of all trades but master of none. So why should they have access to something that noone else has access to. True enough. I guess that's part of my issue with the Bard class. Whenever I am considering playing a Bard (or anyone else in the playgroups I am part of) I get the same lines.. Me: "If I play a Bard, I can cast this..." Player #1: "We don't need that. My Wizard can do that better." Me:"Okay. But I can also cast this..." Player #2: "We don't need that. My Cleric can do that better." Me:"Okay. I can be sneaky and diplomatic..." Player #3: "We don't need that. My rogue has a hundred skill points already." Me:"Sigh." I was thinking that if the bard either had... a) some types of spells that fit the theme, that no other class got (such as if they were the only class that got Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, etc., or if they got the best charm/fascinate type spells, or if they had the best divination spells) or b) some type of thematically appropriate way to make the aforementioned things better. An example, would be a wizard casts Charm with a DC of 11 + Int Modifier, a Bard is a DC of 11 + Cha Modifier. However, an ability that allowed a Bard to cast Mind-Affecting Enchantments (as an example) with a DC equal to a Perform(music) Check could be interesting. It would be thematically appropriate with the performing; kind of like the "Music soothes the savage beast" belief. ...It would give a bit more importance to having a bard in the party. Perhaps I am viewing Bards completly wrong, since I never get the chance to play one, or because I keep hearing from people that the Bard is the weakest class. It sounds like an enjoyable class to play though. Perhaps the big problem, is that in a small party (of 4 members), the bard doesn't seem able to replace the typically core members (Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter type). Maybe the bard really finds it's niche in a larger party of 6 where it can back up various members when needed. Thanks for the input! Cheers!
Jaid 05-29-05, 12:33 PM	indeed, the larger a party is, the more difference a bard can make. for one thing, that's more allies to affect with bardic music. also, keep in mind that while others can do it better with their spells, for many of them you can do it spontaneously, which may not be the case for the others. thus, you are always ready to do that thing, whereas they are only ready if they take the specific spell. to a wizard, there can be quite a difference between "i can do that" and "i can do that right now", and of course the same is true for any prepared spellcaster. as far as unique bard things, bards do get a number of unique items. also, bardic knowledge is a handy little tool. being able to pick up on some minor areas where the others are unable to reach, or can't do in combination, is good too. for example; the rogue can max out, say, 10 skills. there will still be a couple left, in my experience. for example, i have never had the skill points in 3rd to take pick pockets (now sleight of hand i believe). with hide, move silently, spot, listen, search, disable device, open locks, tumble, decipher script, use magic device, bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, etc... the rogue theoretically can do any of those things, yes. but once they choose their skills, they can't do all of those. some of those everyone in the party will want to have; spot and listen, hide and move silently, tumble, climb, and balance for example, are all skills everyone could want. these are useful even when someone else in the party has them. then, the ones that only one person needs... these generally are too varied to cover everything. a rogue can only take so many skills; having another person in the party to cover these skills can be nice. also, while the rogue may be able to sneak around just as well as you, he probably can't cast spells as well as you, and he likely wouldn't mind some backup every now and then.
Lana "Silvertongue" 05-29-05, 12:47 PM	I was thinking that if the bard either had... a) some types of spells that fit the theme, that no other class got (such as if they were the only class that got Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, etc., or if they got the best charm/fascinate type spells, or if they had the best divination spells) or b) some type of thematically appropriate way to make the aforementioned things better. An example, would be a wizard casts Charm with a DC of 11 + Int Modifier, a Bard is a DC of 11 + Cha Modifier. However, an ability that allowed a Bard to cast Mind-Affecting Enchantments (as an example) with a DC equal to a Perform(music) Check could be interesting. It would be thematically appropriate with the performing; kind of like the "Music soothes the savage beast" belief. ...It would give a bit more importance to having a bard in the party. Perhaps I am viewing Bards completly wrong, since I never get the chance to play one, or because I keep hearing from people that the Bard is the weakest class. It sounds like an enjoyable class to play though. Perhaps the big problem, is that in a small party (of 4 members), the bard doesn't seem able to replace the typically core members (Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter type). Maybe the bard really finds it's niche in a larger party of 6 where it can back up various members when needed. Thanks for the input! Cheers! I think your overlooking the key line a bard character needs to tell every other player. "Yes, but then you don't have to." The bardic music is also very useful... its almost a prayer without the spell slot. Your job as a bard is to fill the holes in spellcasting, have the ability to cover for the heavier armored folks and skills that the rogue doesn't invest in. Literally, build your bard last... take a gander over the group and fill in the missing links. Bards are veristile and thats their niche. The bardic feats are wonderful... the spells across the board are very useful! Sorry, I played in a group of three as a bard. I saved the groups collective lives on watch by myself at levels 1 and 2. I was the spellcaster.. I had wands. I proved the use of Orisons.. so I know the bard is beast.
CaoSlayer 05-29-05, 12:54 PM	the thing that the bard magic needs it is a rewrite... they are used the same way that sorcerer magic, but isnt sorcerer magic, needs clarifications of what can do and what cant do, there are stupid things like being able to cast shadow conjuration but not greater shadow conjuration and the see invisibility as a level 3 spell that lacks of a good reason to be that way. Also a clarification of why bardīs spells needs a vocal component and if you can cast a spell playing your instrument instead of pronuciating magical words. we need a real guideline to bardic music nature at this version of the game... 3nd one was clear: since bards are JOATs they learned to cast spells AS WIZARDS. Now seems that spells are some kind of special powerful songs. Also I would like to see in their list more cleric and wizard spells based in words, like command, greater command and powerwords, I cant see a good reason of why bardīs dont have power word spells since are enchantment spells (most of them -1 spell level, -2 at level 6), so a bard should be able to use powerword: stun at level 6.
Schmendrick 05-29-05, 01:04 PM	The bard can't cast any non-exclusive spell better than the class the spell "really belongs to", but he can cast it instead of them. If your bard knows Haste, then that's one more round for the wizard to be casting a Fireball or a Hold Person or something more directly effective. A bard is, essentially, "just another caster" in the party that opens up more options for other party members. modify memory won't work to bring back spells, will it? you don't memorise spells, you prepare them. also, you have to envision the memory yourself... so, even if you could, it would be limited to spells you both know. but, since you can't, it's kinda a moot point. if this were previous editions, you might have a case for it (maybe). Sorry; I didn't mean to imply that I meant spell memorization; I meant memorization of observed details. Things like the license plate number on the.. er, um, I mean, things like the sigil on the dark knight's armor, or (better yet) easily missed things like the small scar on his right arm or the nick in his left ear, or the signature on a piece of paper previously thought unimportant. Normally that requires an INT check to recall, and even then only if you actively noted it (at least in passing) the first time around. You could even use Modify Memory to watch someone else's dreams. And if the bard also has Silent Image (or similar), you can replay things for the rest of the party! Depending on your party, Modify Memory is also great for erasing those horrible horrible moments spent on the inside of some beast's stomach. I generally avoid even trying to use bard spells offensively; their spell level access progresses so slowly that the save DCs are often too low to feel effective (to me, at least). Perhaps if a Perform check were used in conjunction (in some way) with Enchantment and/or Illusion spells to up the DC I wouldn't feel the same way. AFAIK, the only synergy between bardic music and spells are two feats in CA that let you spend a BM use to raise the DC by 1, which feels kind of weak. Using a straight-up Perform check, on the other hand, is far too powerful, and using relatively complex math like (you may spend a use of bardic music to raise the DC of the spell by your Perform check divided by 5) seems inelegant. Even something like "Make a Perform check and use the result as your CHA score (if it is higher than your actual CHA score) to determine the DC of your spell" while numerically pleasant and somewhat more in "jive" with current rules seems overly complex.
Rechan 05-29-05, 04:01 PM	Monte Cook put out a book back in 3.0, a Book of Eldrich Might (or was it the sequel?) that had a revamped Bard class. It had also revamped the spells and added some to the list. Magic of Faerun had some bard spells but not a huge amount. Did you check Song and Silence?
Wild Yapok 05-29-05, 05:03 PM	Some great discussions here! I appreciate it greatly. I don't have books like Song and Silence I'm afraid. I have the Core books, Eberron and Dragonlance Campaign settings, Unearthed Arcana (which has some neat ideas) and Complete Warrior. I would like to get the other Complete books to increase options for the players in my groups; but my expenditures on minis has kept me from that so far. :D I can certainly see the value of a Bard in larger parties (acting as back-up for a number of classes, and more targets to inspire). Perhaps it is the fact that they are so good at playing backup wizard/cleric/rogue that it made it impossible to make them really shine in one particular area. Hmmm...that gives me an idea... IDEA: Would it be too unbalancing to have a house rule in which Bards were the only class allowed to cast enchantment spells? (and have any enchantment spells not on their spell list, added to it - perhaps one level later or something to balance it a bit more) Would this overpower the Bard? or underpower the Cleric/Wizard/Druid/Sorcerer? It would certainly make the Bard a more desirable class - being the only ones that could cast Sleep, Charm Person, Hideous Laughter, etc.. Cheers!
Kintara 05-29-05, 05:26 PM	Complete Adventurer has quite a few Bard-specific spells. That would be the place to look. Dirge of Discord, Hymn of Praise, Infernal Threnody, Inspiring Boost, Improvisation, Protege, some sonic attack spells, and a couple other things I can't think of, off-hand. Inspiring Boost is one I've taken. It's a Swift action to cast and adds an extra +1 to Inspire Courage's bonuses. Protege is a high-level spell that turns someone into a Bard of half your level for the purposes of bardic music. As for the Enchantment idea, I think there are too many iconic spells from that school that other spellcasters should be able to take. I mean Dominate Person? Hold Person? Wizards should be able to do that.
Jaid 05-29-05, 09:22 PM	plus it would be kinda awkward to figure out what to do for those level 7-9 spells... i mean, who gets those if the bard is the only one to cast enchantment spells? you would end up losing a lot of spells...
simon_tage 05-30-05, 08:58 AM	I have sounded this horn on several other threads but here goes. Always feel free to make new spells. People design magic items all the time why not try making some bard only spells?
Wild Yapok 05-30-05, 06:11 PM	I have sounded this horn on several other threads but here goes. Always feel free to make new spells. People design magic items all the time why not try making some bard only spells? Good point! That would be a pretty easy solution for me. :) As for the Enchantment idea, I think there are too many iconic spells from that school that other spellcasters should be able to take. I mean Dominate Person? Hold Person? Wizards should be able to do that. I skimmed the 7th-9th level spells, and you're right. There are some pretty great one in there. Such as the Power Word spells. I still might try running a campaign like that to see how it works. Maybe I'll add a feat that allows a Bard to add those spells to his/her spell list at a high level. I'm going to have to ponder this one a bit more to work out mechanics though. As for weakening the Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid slightly, I think many people feel that those tend to be the top 4 most powerful classes anyway; so weakening them a bit shouldn't be too much of a problem with my players. And strengthening the Bard slightly might bring them in to favor more. Cheers!
Dragonspirit 05-30-05, 06:21 PM	A more exclusive bard list would be an excellent idea. Though the bard as written is not bad, and is actually the MVP of a party of six or more, it could use a few tweaks. If it's really suppose to be the catch all/jack of all trades - then it could use an upgrade in the hit dice so it could sub a little better for 'meat shield' duty, and I'd think a few offensive spells (like magic missile) would be appropriate.
Redmoon 05-30-05, 10:55 PM	bards do great in parties of 6 or more... but they also do great in parties of 3. The single biggest problem with a small party is flexibility. Chances are you'll have a fighter and a mage, and the bard is the only class capable of backing both of them up, AND fill in the rest of the niches. Your wizard goes down? heal him, and cast some spells of your own, while he recovers. Your fighter goes down? Heal him, and take his place in the front lines for a few rounds. And your bardic music might help 6 companions greatly, but it also might be that slight nudge that your two companions need to help them get past that BBEG.
Schmendrick 05-30-05, 11:25 PM	One character I played recently was a bard (well, I started diluting him with Dragon Disciple, but mainly just because it was cool -- I never got near melee) in a very large (8, IIRC) party. Every physical combat player loved the bard (not just the character, on account of high social skills/charisma), but the player (because Inspire Courage made their characters better. Well, that and Haste; our sorceror was pure blaster so I was the only arcane "buff" caster). Being a math geek, I had a lot of fun keeping track of how much "synergy damage" I did. It's usually only a few points here and there for Inspire Courage's +X to damage, but when your +X to hit pushes someone's critical confirmation roll from "no" to "yes" with a x4 weapon, your "bardic virtual damage" output skyrockets. Counting all the damage from the extra attack of a Hasted ally counts for a lot, too. I was at least a contender (if not actual champion) for "most damage output" in the party. Certainly, in some battles, there was no question. :)
CzarGarrett 05-31-05, 09:01 AM	I think there's a handful of spells across the books that are pretty much Bard exclusives. But if you feel there is a significant deficency, develop your own spells.