Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jadorn 12-16-05, 08:06 PM	Recently in one of the games im playing I chose to be a bard which is new for me. The rest of my playing group thinks that I'm not adding to the game at all :weep: . In my party we have a rogue, a fighter (who's going to become a wizard), a sorcerer and a scout (who will be a druid). That leaves me with the role of a cleric so to speak. What do you think? and do u have any suggestions on playing the bard?
JadeSpider9643 12-16-05, 08:28 PM	Buy wands of cure light/moderate wounds as you can afford them (if your party is low level and poor, make the others chip in, it's only 750gp for a wand of CLW, that's 15gp per casting, and 50d8+50 points of healing overall, a bargin to be sure. Just remind them that while you don't do damage directly with that stupid song/dance/story/whatever, you add extra damage every time they hit something, keep a tally over a battle or 2 and you might surprise yourself and them how much damage you actually contributed. (don't forget any time they hit the AC exactly YOU get credit for ALL the damage from that blow)
chuff80 12-16-05, 08:51 PM	It all depends on what you're going for in your game. If your party is a hack and slash style game, then you may have a hard time, especially at lower levels. If it's a more narrative style game, as mine tend to be, then the bard can actually have a huge advantage. There are ways to make it work though. One of my players is a bard and we just had this two-week epic discussion on how to revamp her so that she's useful (the party is 12th level and everyone else is WICKEDLY mean). Here's my take: First off: The bard's strengths are not in damage. It's easiest to build a bard who can stop things with charm/illusion/singing/talking. Pump up your charisma as much as possible, take spell focus in enchantment, then make liberal use of fascinate in non-combat situations, and charm person/hypnotism/silent image while in combat. Being creative with these spells can be more devastating than a fireball. "Hey there Orc Barbarian with a 3 Will Save, why don't you keep your friends from hurting me, since I'm your best friend now." It gets worse at higher levels with spells like dominate, hold monster...you can stop that marauding fighter in his tracks. Don't forget sleep. Once you hit 3rd/4th level spells, you can start using illusions that will have your enemies not knowing where to go to even begin attacking you. Along with that, if you want to do some damage in combat, take weapon finesse, two-weapon fighting feats, cast mirror image, and then wade into melee. It gets ugly fast when you start singing and use inspire courage/greatness. Find yourself a flaming rapier/short sword and you'll do massive damage in combat. (hint: Shatter will get rid of that pesky plate armor that the fighter you're up against is wearing) If your game is a little less about combat and a little more about court intrigue, it should be obvious that the bard excels here. Suggestion, charm, the diplomacy/bluff skills, etc. The bard is a class that requires a lot of creativity to make work, but if you have it, you can give your DM nightmares, wishing that he just did damage....
FriendlyBiscuit 12-16-05, 08:54 PM	Mindbender Seeker of the Song Fohlucan Lyrist Exotic Weapon Master (working with the melee fighters for MEAN disarms and trips with the whip, or even stunning with the whip) Just whatever you do, don't be a straight bard, or your party WILL have very good reason to mock you.
Fedifensor 12-16-05, 08:57 PM	Maxed-out CHA + SF and GSF: Enchantment + Tasha's hideous laughter. It gets really nasty once the bard gets up to the mid-levels, thanks to that 1 round/level duration. "You just took out their main fighter with a 1st level spell? And it lasts HOW LONG?!?"
The Vorpal Tribble 12-16-05, 08:57 PM	It depends alot on how you play the character. Bards are mainly good for enhancing others and is a great ally, though isn't on average a power unto himself. However, I once played a half-orc bard that was the equal of any. He was 8th level and had the Stormsinger PrC along with the Snowflake Wardance and Storm Magic feats. All of this was from Frostburn which has some great stuff for bards. He could hold his own with the fighter of the party, blast with the wizard, and still got to use his bardic abilities.
Syllibull 12-16-05, 09:15 PM	My personal favorite character i've ever played was a bard. He was a human bard that had gone into minbender and was starting to take levels in chameleon. When i finally gave him the mindsight feat he was the must have in the party. He was great as a buffer and fantastic as the groups spokesman.
BardicEvil 12-17-05, 12:07 AM	Don't forget the Sublime Chord PrC from Complete Arcane. You keep your bardic lore ability intact, sacrifice some of your bardic song power (but some of the new music can make it worthwhile). However, you gain the flexibility of being able to learn Sorceror/Wizard powers, and you can learn up to 9th level spells by level 10 of the PrC. If you're in a hack-and-slach party, this can help. You'll still be able to take those bardic healing spells, plus you'll have some of the same damage-dealing power as a sorceror. Of course, if it's not hack-and-slash, and the party thinks you aren't pulling your weight... well. Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive are must haves to control social interactions. Add in some enchantment spells and most people should be putty in a bard's hands. Also, don't forget the possibility of increasing the sell value of party goods. Noone wants to use that +4 pick the party found? Sweet talk the shopkeep and you've just earned the party an extra 3200 (unless the GM only allows haggling to lower prices. But then, you've just saved the fighter 3200 gold on that shiny new +4 longsword) Bards can be useful, and even powerful, depending on the type of game. The biggest struggle becomes finding ways to prove your usefulness. Ex: The party encounters a pair of ogres in a somewhat narrow pass. They threaten the spellcasters, and large weapons are unwieldy to use. However, a good bluff roll has these ogres hunting the "suspicious orcs" you overheard around that last bend plotting to kill the ogres in their sleep and take their stuff. The party loots from the ogres' nearby lair, while the ogres are off hunting. While everyone's enjoying a drink at the next inn, point out that you still overcame the ogres' as a challenge, and thus the party gets full XP without the chance of dying or using up charged items. Still think the bard isn't adding to the game? ;) If they still say no, bide your time until you get Dominate Person, wait until they're asleep and you're the only one on watch. Boom, you now have some new gladiators to begin your own personal arena. :schemes:
Kynn Elfson 12-17-05, 12:07 AM	its a very very very simple method. Ask your group how to deal with this situation DM: "You encounter a friggen Terrasque. What do you do?" Fighter: "um....swing my sword?" Wizard: "start casting fireball....I guess?" Bard: *evil grin* "does he see us as threats?" DM: "uh....well you're all like two inches to him....so no." Bard: *evil grin gets bigger* "Kay listen up mage boy, you run off to that cliff over there okay? Thats a good mageling. Swordboy, sit down and shut up." *pulls out loot, begins to play the raddest Loot cover of Kashmir ever* /FACINATED!!!!!! Wizard: "oh......well okay now we wont get squished!" Bard: *ends in a brain melting solo and salutes the Gods of Rock and thanks them for their awesomeness!!* "Thank you Jimmy Paige!! You are the man!!" /end argument See the bard is the 1337
Kynn Elfson 12-17-05, 12:15 AM	oh I forgot to add DM: "................WTF?!?!?!?!.....you just killed my Terrasque?! Okay, bards aren't allowed anymore."
Gnarl 12-17-05, 03:29 AM	Recently in one of the games im playing I chose to be a bard which is new for me. The rest of my playing group thinks that I'm not adding to the game at all :weep: . In my party we have a rogue, a fighter (who's going to become a wizard), a sorcerer and a scout (who will be a druid). That leaves me with the role of a cleric so to speak. What do you think? and do u have any suggestions on playing the bard? Two things: if you try to deal damage by yourself, you must be useless. If you're buffing up the party, you must be useful but nobody sees it. Considering the number of weapon using party members, your bard can't be useless. You will be even more usefull in the future once those scouts and fighters start multiclassing. Since you'll have 2 wasted characters in your party, they're need all the help they can get, and that's when you'll come in handy. One last thing, some have mention spells such as Hideous Laughter. I wouldn't go for these kind of spells. Your save DC are probably low, and will always be lower than a wizard's or cleric's (and monsters of your CR were designed to save against those spells not yours). If you need some tips for improving your bard towards the ultimate party buffer, feel free to ask. It all depends on what you're going for in your game. If your party is a hack and slash style game, then you may have a hard time, especially at lower levels. If it's a more narrative style game, as mine tend to be, then the bard can actually have a huge advantage. There are ways to make it work though. Are you sure ? I wouldn't call party buffs useless in a hack'n slash. The bard also has a couple of skills that are usefull in dungeons: listen, spot, move silently, hide, swim, climb, tumble, jump, perform, use magic device. You don't have to take those social skills with a bard. P.S: a lone bard sucks.
CaoSlayer 12-17-05, 04:13 AM	P.S: a lone bard sucks. I half agree. while a lone bard kinda is weak in some fields, a good bard never will stay alone, in an one player campaign a bard it is able to bring at least two friends a charmed-dominated-diplomaced person and a cohort due to leadership with high charisma. Bards have the forte of mind control, use it at your advantage. If you wants the people stop calling you useless with one cast, use grease spell at the floor of an armored enemy ever if he makes the save since he have not 5 ranks on balance he will lose this bonus to dex meaning the rogue can sneak attack him at will. A combo of bard and rogue it is a powerful one, try to give him chances of ful l round sneak attack without being screwed and he will love you.
ShroudedEyes 12-17-05, 04:13 AM	Depends onwhat you want to do and what books you have access to. For just a standard bard I'd suggest picking up some ranged feats and stand back using bard song and a bow to contribute, along with a few spells. For Feats you could go something like this with a human bard(using only core) 1-Point Blank Shot, Percise Shot 3-Rapid Shot 6-Spell Focus(Enchantment) 9-Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment) 12-Improved Initiative 15-Manyshot 18-Leadership Spells would be primaly buff/healing, along with a good set of Illusions and Enchantments.
CaoSlayer 12-17-05, 04:27 AM	Depends onwhat you want to do and what books you have access to. For just a standard bard I'd suggest picking up some ranged feats and stand back using bard song and a bow to contribute, along with a few spells. For Feats you could go something like this with a human bard(using only core) 1-Point Blank Shot, Percise Shot 3-Rapid Shot 6-Spell Focus(Enchantment) 9-Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment) 12-Improved Initiative 15-Manyshot 18-Leadership Spells would be primaly buff/healing, along with a good set of Illusions and Enchantments. umm, with such kind of build, a bard would almost suck... I mean that you only can sucess with these feats if you have a 14 in every stat... a bard cant be useful for buffing, casting echantments and fighting all at once, he must focus all this feats in one thing if he wants to be strong. that it is because in a fight you cant fight and sing and cast all at once and so spreading the feats makes you being way less efective. so, I personally would have taked weapon focus instead spell focus any day. for the second focus in the other hand I would be tricky and get a metamagic : extend or an item creation feat, with a sorcerer, a wizard and a bard in the party you will be able to craft almost everything, the feat allows to use another caster as the one who provides the spell, so you can offer your feat and your xp and you can obtain things that you will always be able to use (thanks to UD)
Ralphius_Maximus 12-17-05, 04:46 AM	There are some strong suggestions here. I would add to this that there was a great series of articles on the DnD website a while ago on how to make and use bards. I don't know if they are still archived or not, but it would be worth looking into. A couple of other points also. The 5th level spell Improvisation is one of the strongest in the bard's arsenal. Get it as soon as possible and you'll be laughing. As for the party complaining... Stuff 'em. The bard is by it's nature an egotistical character. They love the limelight. Forget about wasting all your spells on healing the heathens who can't appreciate your work. Instead, make use of the abilities others have mentioned above and make an impression. Push your PC to the fore in any situation and let the rest keep up if they can.
Pandaemoni 12-17-05, 05:40 AM	I would add to this that there was a great series of articles on the DnD website a while ago on how to make and use bards. I don't know if they are still archived or not, but it would be worth looking into. The articles you mention (I believe) can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/bk Though several of the suggestions need to be adapted to a 3.5 edition bard (like heavy reliance on mage armor and greater magic weapon spells...which bards no longer have). I am presently about to embark on my first bardic character since first edition (back when bards were the one and only "prestige class"). I'm slightly apprehensive as I'm new to the 3.5 rules and some of the party members were strongly hinting that bard was not the way to go. The groans increased to wails when they heard that I was shooting for a gnome bard. :D (I've never played a gnome either, so it seemed like a perfect match.) This being my first foray into the 3.5 rules, it seems like a fun class. If the entire group turns out to be hack and slash oriented (as I'm far more interested in the actual "role playing" than in the combat, though I appreciate that too at times) I can see that there might be problems, but the DM assures me that the group will desperately need a high Charisma negotiator to act as the voice of the party. The good news is that I got excellent rolls on my stats (as far into character creation as we got, apart from developing his pre-first-level backstory), averaging a 14.5, and will start with a 17 charisma. Any more discussion of what feats to take and what spells to lean towards (up to say 7th or 8th level as I'm certainly planning on sticking with bard until I get at least the glibness spell) would be greatly helpful, as I am presently at a loss. Also, is there a search function for these forums? (Sorry for the noobish question, but I can't find one for the forums themselves).
der_gogo 12-17-05, 05:58 AM	I played a bard with the focus on buffing and a Composite Longbow. It worked out just fine. +1 On every attack and damage for every teammember (including you) is quite powerful. At lvl 1 it puts me to the same Attack Bonus as a Fighter, and a poweattacking fighter can translate my buff into +3 damage. When I got lvl 3 spells I started casting haste on my whole party. This is great because our party wizard only used direct damage spells. And I also got a great benefit from haste, another ranged attack per round. So, a little calculation: Party lvl 8, 1 Fighter, 1 Barbarian, 1 Wizard, 1 Bard. When I cast Haste and use my Bardic Music for +2 on all attack and damage rolls, it looks like this (for simplicity, each attack hits): - Fighter: 3 attacks (lets say 1d10+3), each with +2 attack and damage: 1 more attack because of me, +2 damage on each: 1d10+3+2+2+2 = 14 damage - Barbarian: 3 attacks (lets say 1d12+6), uses powerattack with my +2 bonus: 1d12+6+6+6+6 = 30 damage - Me: 4 attacks, 1d8+3 each (+1 bow, point blanc shot, 12 str) = 4d8 + 12 + 8 = 48 damage Sum: 92 damage. Who said bards suck in damage? :)
Werwoelfin 12-17-05, 07:49 AM	There´re already some nice threads about bards: How to us song of courage and this suggestion-thing at its best & more: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140225 Another guide to bards: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=62ab1ba6a4733571fe9c3d7 %20%20313b57eb1&threadid=99884 Builds: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=67002 I personally like the idea of that words of creation (doubles the boni from song of courage) and “Favor of Ilmater” Ring combo. My next character will be a bard, too. A changeling bard steping into the Chameleon PrC after level 5. Bard is excellent for that PrC because bards have many skill points and the bards spell casting ability allows to take an item creation feat as the bouns feat a chameleon gets at 2nd level and after finishing you could just change your feat again :D He´s designed to be able to disguise as everybody and than bluff everybody else. At the moment, I´m choosing his spells. Grease seems to be a very nice choice - at least at lower levels.
Fedifensor 12-17-05, 09:44 AM	One last thing, some have mention spells such as Hideous Laughter. I wouldn't go for these kind of spells. Your save DC are probably low, and will always be lower than a wizard's or cleric's (and monsters of your CR were designed to save against those spells not yours). Is there a particular reason bards will have a lower save DC? As far as I know, spell DC is 10 + spellcasting stat bonus + spell level. The only thing that's lower for bards is their spell level...and they're only one or two spell levels behind pure casters for the majority of their career. Plus, since most of their offensive spells are enchantment, they get greater mileage out of Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, compensating for the spell level difference. Yeah, an 8th level bard with a 20 base Charisma (18 plus level bumps), SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, and a +2 cloak of charisma can only get a DC of 19 with Tasha's hideous laughter - but that's still a tough DC for any target with a weak Will save (like most melee-oriented foes). And if the target fails the save, they're out of the combat for 8 rounds - pretty impressive for only using a 1st level spell from your arsenal. Or you could use a DC 21 confusion spell to cause chaos among a large group of foes.
Jadorn 12-17-05, 12:36 PM	Thx to everyone for the advice. I should have mentioned that i already have a plan in place for my bard but at my low level (3) i was getting hell for not being useful. So far I have sacred vow (BoED) and VoP (BoED) at lv 4 im getting nymph's kiss (BoED) and at lv 6 (im getting words of creation :D ). I will be getting lingering song, skill focus perform (percussion), song of inner strength (BoUF) and another feat that improves inspire greatness. At lv 11 im going into the prc seeker of the song (CAr) so i get more songs and can also sing 2 at once. At lv 21 (if i get there) im going into the prc troubadour of stars [BoED] (which levels out my bard songs).
Thorak 12-17-05, 01:01 PM	Is there a particular reason bards will have a lower save DC? As far as I know, spell DC is 10 + spellcasting stat bonus + spell level. The only thing that's lower for bards is their spell level...and they're only one or two spell levels behind pure casters for the majority of their career. Plus, since most of their offensive spells are enchantment, they get greater mileage out of Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, compensating for the spell level difference. Yeah, an 8th level bard with a 20 base Charisma (18 plus level bumps), SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, and a +2 cloak of charisma can only get a DC of 19 with Tasha's hideous laughter - but that's still a tough DC for any target with a weak Will save (like most melee-oriented foes). And if the target fails the save, they're out of the combat for 8 rounds - pretty impressive for only using a 1st level spell from your arsenal. Or you could use a DC 21 confusion spell to cause chaos among a large group of foes. Exactly. A bard's save DCs are just as high as a mage's; the only restriction is their spell level. So their best spells might be slightly lower. But a Bard's 1st level spells should be just as strong as any Wizard's. Also, consider the DCs of their Fascinate and Suggestion. Fascinate's DC is outrageous. It's a Perform check. This means that, by level 10, let's say, a Bard can easily get a DC of 35. 13 ranks in Perform, 18 Charisma base, boosted twice through levels to 20, a +4 charisma item, Skill Focus: Perform, and a masterwork instrument. +25 to Perform checks, level 10. On a 10, an average roll, the DC for Fascinate is 35. I could do better, with a magical instrument with a +5 to perform or some such, but that's a good baseline. And, their Suggestion DC keeps pace with a Wizard's best spells. It improves based on bard level at the same pace a wizard's max spell level increases, and eventually at high levels surpasses the Wizard. Nothing quite like Fascinating an enemy, then nailing them with 9 different Suggestions and having them all work. Note, too, that Suggestion lasts hours. If you Suggest something that takes them out of the fight, they're gone for the forseeable future. You don't even need to kill them, Suggesting they walk south until they see polar bears works fine. And that's all without getting into all the other strengths of bards, as noted here.
ShroudedEyes 12-17-05, 01:10 PM	Umm, I guess I'm not seeing why I'd NEED to have a 14 in every stat to make that build work. I could probably use that build pretty effectievly with the standard array. Str-10 Dex-14 Con-13 Int-12 Wis-8 Cha-15 With those stats I could play a decent bard. Mind you I was only using the core material because I didn't know what he could use. With access to more material I would definately change the build.
Bulabase 12-17-05, 01:29 PM	If you are using Complete Adventurer, a masterwork instrument combined with the 1st level spell Inspirational Boost can really buff your combat characters. With one of the instruments, you can get +3 to hit/+2 damage at low level. This is a massive increase in combat power for a party. I ran a game with a bard in the party once and decided to keep track of exactly what effect her songs (and spells) had on the combat. Between simple extra damage (ie +2 for each hit) and hits that would have missed were it not for the to hit bonus, she was responsible for about 1/4 of all the damage in the encounter. In addition, she used inspire greatness (2d10+Con temp hp)to keep two characters alive long enough for the cleric to heal them. She never even attacked the dragon during the entire encounter. That experience was my answer to the plethora of "Bards Suck" threads.
Werwoelfin 12-17-05, 04:26 PM	If you are using Complete Adventurer, a masterwork instrument combined with the 1st level spell Inspirational Boost can really buff your combat characters. With one of the instruments, you can get +3 to hit/+2 damage at low level. This is a massive increase in combat power for a party. Which masterwork instrument does this? A drum increases damage by one but decreases bonus to saves. -> +1 to hit/+2 damage A mandoline increases the bonus to attack rolls by one, but decreases the boni to saves and damage. -> +2 to hit/+0 damage A horn increases damage and saves (against fear) by 1, but the effect lasts for only 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform. (So, this don´t work very well with lingering song) -> +1 to hit/+2 damage (Note: The calculations above do not include the effects of the spell Inspirational Boost) If you play in Faerun, you may also take the harmony spell which increases all boni by 1 respectively 2 (saves) but needs a standard action to be cast. Using both spells you should be able to boost your allies by +3/+4 or +4/+2 at 3th level :)
Morrowner 12-17-05, 05:56 PM	There are some other spells that work pretty good for boosting damage output, like Elation (Second Level, +2 Morale Bonus to Dexterity and Strength, +5 to movement in an 80 foot burst to all allies.), Sonic Weapon(another 1d6 to a weapon, duration in minutes), etc. If I remember it correctly you get twice your bard level in "points" that can be spent on any roll and it can be cast on allies. It can be split up for two rolls so that a guy at 13th level could say add 6 to the attack and 20 to damage. Also, if you really want to work it with the Suggestion and Mass Suggestion you could get a sick check. At 13th level its crazy:26 for Improvising, 16 for ranks, 2 for a mastercraft instrument, you roll a 10, 22 Charisma(maybe more) for +6, Circlet of Persuasion +3, its treated as a 6th level spell. Yep, 69 DC :eek: :cool: Suggestion at 13th level with an average roll.
Cheruvim 12-17-05, 06:02 PM	I have a question about The Bard Starter package. it says in the PH that the starter package is a Gnome. Gomes have Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights and speak with animal as spell-like abilities. The starter package gives you Ghost Sound as a 0 level spell. My question is, do the racial spell-like abilities of a Gnome count toward a Bard's number of spells known?
CaoSlayer 12-17-05, 06:05 PM	I always have been despissed VoP for a bard just because I love use magical device, still it is a good feat. you should look at the vow of peace and non-violence, a +4 to the DC of almost every spell on the bard spell list it is godlike.
Lotus Crane 12-17-05, 06:06 PM	No, spell-like abilities are tracked separately from actual spells. The gnome bard they use as an example, must really like ghost sound a lot.
quix0te 12-17-05, 06:19 PM	I'm playing a lvl 15 bard in a Planescape campaign. We have two characters who are melee oriented and they LOVE my character. A few things to keep in mind. You are NOT just a healer. You are very good at locking down a target. A cure light wounds might heal 10 pts of damage on average. A hideous laughter can take one giant or other big hitter OUT OF THE FIGHT. Thats a LOT more than 10 pts of damage. It sounds like your party is going with a lot of casters. Why exactly is the druid not just as capable as you of being the healer? Also. Summoning. Summoning + bard = BAD A$$. Summon monster 3 you get access to Mr. Celestial Lion. Use him a lot. Mr. Celestial Lion + Bard Song = +1 to hit, +1 to damage on 3 attacks per round. With the druid around, I believe your bard song can affect their companion and their summoned varmints. If your party is already heavy on casters (or will be) you should be angling your bard towards melee. My bard has bought +str and +con gear so he has an 18 str and 16 con. He took martial weap proficiency (falchion). When he's singing his falchion hits nearly as well and as hard as a fighters. Look into the taunt feat if the rest of the party is not melee-oriented. Cha and taunt are like bread and butter. The squishies can buff you up to give you better AC, and you should get the best chain shirt and +AC gear you can. Dont let them talk down to you. You da man.
quix0te 12-17-05, 06:24 PM	Is there a particular reason bards will have a lower save DC? As far as I know, spell DC is 10 + spellcasting stat bonus + spell level. Well, speaking from experience, you are building the bard as if all they will do is cast (so you max their casting trait). Setting aside the lower spell lvl (on average), if you are playing a fightin' bard (like I am and like the OP should because its what his party needs), then not only will your Cha be lower, you wont be taking the must have feats for offensive casters, like spell focus and spell penetration (which gets REAL useful around lvl 8 to 10). If you ARE maxing out the caster traits... why are you playing a bard instead of a sorc or a cleric?
Seerow 12-17-05, 06:28 PM	Because the Bard's Charisma would enhance his social skills as well, something niether the Sorc or Cleric would have? Also, just because you're boosting Charisma doesn't mean all your other stats are irrelevant. 16 points to get an 18, in a 32 point buy you can still get a 12 in 4 other stats, and a 10 in the last (Probably wisdom). Sure, not a top notch melee fighter, but he has music, casting, and skills that no other class can match. Edit: Just to clarify, I mean that they don't have that good a combination of it, not that no class can beat a Bard's casting, because clearly a Wizard can, nor that none can beat his skills, because a Rogue can. But the Rogue can't cast and the Wizard can't do crap in a social situation. And nobody else has the music.
Morrowner 12-18-05, 12:18 AM	There is another feat that I just found that works crazily with Harmony and Inspirational Boost, and mastercraft instruments: Focused Performance. By spending and additional use of Bardic Music you double the effects of your Bardic Music on one person. It requires a steep Perform check but it can be done by 8th without too many problems. +10 to attacks, damage, and saves against charms and fear for 20 rounds a day.
Cheruvim 12-18-05, 03:36 AM	its a very very very simple method. Ask your group how to deal with this situation DM: "You encounter a friggen Terrasque. What do you do?" Fighter: "um....swing my sword?" Wizard: "start casting fireball....I guess?" Bard: *evil grin* "does he see us as threats?" DM: "uh....well you're all like two inches to him....so no." Bard: *evil grin gets bigger* "Kay listen up mage boy, you run off to that cliff over there okay? Thats a good mageling. Swordboy, sit down and shut up." *pulls out loot, begins to play the raddest Loot cover of Kashmir ever* /FACINATED!!!!!! Wizard: "oh......well okay now we wont get squished!" Bard: *ends in a brain melting solo and salutes the Gods of Rock and thanks them for their awesomeness!!* "Thank you Jimmy Paige!! You are the man!!" /end argument See the bard is the 1337 A bit far fetched. You can't encounter A friggin Terrasque. You can only encounter THE friggin Terrasque who sleeps in a large lair only god knows where and if he's not asleep he's rampaging through the countryside. If he does get fancinated, mageboy down there only gets one shot. Facinate ends when something threatening happens to the subject. You better have some Epic spells going down if you're goining to kill The Terrasque in one shot.
Werwoelfin 12-18-05, 05:09 AM	There is another feat that I just found that works crazily with Harmony and Inspirational Boost, and mastercraft instruments: Focused Performance. By spending and additional use of Bardic Music you double the effects of your Bardic Music on one person. It requires a steep Perform check but it can be done by 8th without too many problems. +10 to attacks, damage, and saves against charms and fear for 20 rounds a day. Is this a feat from Dragon Magazine?
Crichton 12-18-05, 05:13 AM	I didn't read all the other posts but here's my opinion. If you're playing correctly, correctly regulating what your characters would actually know "in-game" based solely on their experiences "in-game" and their knowledge checks; then the Bard is a virtual powerhouse.
Pandaemoni 12-18-05, 12:51 PM	There is another feat that I just found that works crazily with Harmony and Inspirational Boost, and mastercraft instruments: Focused Performance. By spending and additional use of Bardic Music you double the effects of your Bardic Music on one person. It requires a steep Perform check but it can be done by 8th without too many problems. +10 to attacks, damage, and saves against charms and fear for 20 rounds a day. In which book is that feat found?
Pandaemoni 12-18-05, 01:16 PM	Another question: Do shield using bards suffer the chance arcane spell failure from the shield? I know they ignore it for light armor, but the PHB is silent about shields on that point (suggesting that their arcane spell failure chance does affect bards).
NineInchNall 12-18-05, 01:46 PM	Yes, shields give ASF. :( Seriously, go with Bard 7/Marshal 1/Hexblade 2/Sublime Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8. You won't regret it. Take Motivate Spellcasting as your minor aura and never worry about SR again. You'll get Charisma to saves, a BAB of +16, and casting as a 9th level Sublime Chord (one 9th level spell). Do it. Know the power of the Bard. For more on Sublime Chord fun, go to the Sublime Compilation (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926)
Pandaemoni 12-18-05, 01:55 PM	Yes, shields give ASF. :( Damn. Oh well. Just one less piece of equipment about which to worry. I'm sure that, like umbrellas, I'd just wind up accidentally leaving my shield in restaurants, cabs, movie theaters, etc. and having to buy new ones.
Morrowner 12-18-05, 02:41 PM	Its in Dragon 338, page 89. You have to take a subpar feat to benefit from it, though, Focused Performer(Perform rather than Concentration on checks to maintain spells and keep from damage disrupting a spell.)
savant_warlord13 12-18-05, 06:45 PM	bard is a good choice for people hopping into the middle of a party that already everything it needs bards are terrible in small parties and great in big parties
Morrowner 12-20-05, 01:21 PM	Hasn't the handbook said that for about, oh, 5 years? I agree, they're like a 6th Man in a basketball game. If you make 'em right and roll hot they can really shock people.
Rocketboy13 12-20-05, 01:45 PM	The Bard featured in the highly popular, and very acurate portrayl of gameplay, comic strip known as The Order of the Stick, has yet to contribute to the party in any meaningful way, with one exception, his evil twin brother who opperates a team of evil opposite adventurers. Here are three of his usual contributions to the party plus one instance of him calling his own position in the party silly. :rolleyes: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=17 http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=26 http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=127 http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=128 While the Bard may be mechanicly versatile it is mechanicly inferior in any one position. He is a born second banana, and much like the Half-elf is to the race chapter, the bard is the least tempting thing to play in his particular sphere. :P
Thorak 12-20-05, 02:00 PM	The Bard featured in the highly popular, and very acurate portrayl of gameplay, comic strip known as The Order of the Stick, has yet to contribute to the party in any meaningful way, with one exception, his evil twin brother who opperates a team of evil opposite adventurers. Here are three of his usual contributions to the party plus one instance of him calling his own position in the party silly. :rolleyes: Right. Because a comic strip, intended to be funny through the use of stereotypes, is a good source of information. While the Bard may be mechanicly versatile it is mechanicly inferior in any one position. Except mind control and social skills, where he's bar none superior to any other core class. He is a born second banana, and much like the Half-elf is to the race chapter, the bard is the least tempting thing to play in his particular sphere. :P Except that he's superior in some ways to any other character. And, in addition, is second banana on all kinds of other things. While it's usually a bad method of comparison, whenever we've resorted to challenge threads involving bards, they always devolve into the opposition having to build a character specifically to kill a Bard; in other words, one screwed when fighting pretty much anyone else. The one that comes to mind most recently is the guy who, in all honesty, was arguing for deliberately permanently deafening his character. Because without doing so, he could see that he didn't have any significant chance. We've also done comparisons against Clerics, who had to assume they'd gotten several buffs on, with durations in minutes, and that they could end the fight in that period, despite the Bard players pointing out oodles of ways the Bard just waits his protections out. The Bard is a strong character. I'd put a Bard up against almost any other character in a straight power comparison. If you don't agree, then I guarantee you've never seen a strong Bard played, probably just silly Elan-clones played for amusement, rather than strength.
Morrowner 12-20-05, 02:13 PM	Agreed completely. D6 and 6 skill points is nice for a Charisma based character. At level 4, with 1 first level spell, and a 5 gp piece of equipment you are doubling someone's BAB. For 20+ rounds a day you are probably doubling your damage output with that +4, not to mention that all of the hits that come by benefit of that +4. I'd just like to throw this out there: In my experience, I'd rather have a Bard in a party than a rogue. Same BAB, only 2 less skills, abilities built in that are just as useful as Sneak Attack, shield proficiency and 6th level spells. Yet how many threads do we have carping about the 3.5 Bard and how many do we have carping about the rogue? They are basically even yet people have this image stuck in their heads that bards "suck".
NineInchNall 12-20-05, 06:29 PM	The Bard featured in the highly popular, and very acurate portrayl of gameplay, comic strip known as The Order of the Stick, has yet to contribute to the party in any meaningful way, with one exception, his evil twin brother who opperates a team of evil opposite adventurers. Here are three of his usual contributions to the party plus one instance of him calling his own position in the party silly. :rolleyes: Accurate portrayal of gameplay my aching posterior. It was quite amusing to see the Gatling Chain Tripper fall off a cliff, but it certainly has nothing to do with the actual effectiveness of that build. Similarly, Elan is an idiot. There is really nothing else that can be said of that character. His ineffectuality doesn't stem from the fact that he's a bard, but instead from the fact that he's a comic relief character. Would you say Dwarves are worthless because Durkon is afraid of trees? But you know? Maybe you're right. A comic that fudges the rules and logic in the pursuit of a good laugh is the perfect source for statistical analyses of the effectiveness of various D&D options. Why couldn't I see it before?
Tarkahn 12-20-05, 07:12 PM	Please tell me that people are NOT puttin' down the bard. My favorite class? Bad? Oh no, no, no... Bards, as stated and hinted at, are support characters. Yes, they suck if they try and fight (well, compared to the barbarian and fighter anyway). Yes, they suck if they are your main form of spellcasting support (compared to the wizard and cleric). However, their strength is in their versatility. No, it's more than that. They. Control. People. The scariest build I've ever made was my Half-Elf bard. I could be diplomatic and bluff people like no one else. Toss in Glibness and Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and I could get people to do ANYTHING! Seriously, how likely is it that Joe Average fighter is going to make that 55-60 DC Sense Motive check? Enough ranting, though. I'm here to suggest some materials that better supplement the bard. Some have been listed, others are brand new. Consider it a consolidated list of suggestions... 1) Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) 2) Ability Focus (Bardic Musics) 3) Weapon Finesse 4) Masterwork Instruments 5) Hold Person (spell) 6) Bardic Feats 7) Songblade (from Complete Adv.) 8) Glibness 9) Skill Focus (Diplomacy) 10) Lyre of Building (so useful for making a quick base of operations) 11) Improved Feint (make use of your high Charisma and Bluff skill) Just remember that bards excel in the manipulation of others. As such, stay in the back, buff your allies, and control your enemies. Just spells and bardic music when appropriate, and use your skills to gain the upperhand in social interactions. You'll quickly show how useful a bard is to a party.
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 12-20-05, 08:18 PM	Like ANY class, if you're smart, you know what you want to do, and you know the needs of your party (and campaign) then you can make a Bard as effective as ANY other class. If you need to beef up melee, simply take a level in fighter and use a greatsword... simple solustion to damage output. Take a Masterwork buckler and Improved Buckler (ComAdv) and trade a measly 5% spell failure for a permenant +1 (or more if magical) AC. Take improved Toughness (+1hp/HD) which is like a +2 Con and then any other melee stat boost you can manage. You'll never compare to a fighter, but you'll hold your own.
Thurbane 12-20-05, 09:00 PM	I'd have to say that a class that has almost all of the abilities of rogues, the ability to cast a fair number of arcane spells without having to prepare them and without a spellbook, and has unique class abilities to boot is far from useless, from a purely utilitarian point of view.
Morrowner 12-20-05, 09:56 PM	Bingo. Like I said before, its fairly easy to get a Bard with the right spells and equipment seriously buffing the whole party. They are decent in combat, great faces out of it, have a good skill list and skill points, have sweet abilities that they use all the time and have access to 6th level spells. And this is the class that always gets yelled at for being "weak" and not contributing.
angellis_ater 12-20-05, 09:57 PM	In the last game the level 2 bard in the group I DM added the following damage in an encounter using Inspire Courage and Inspiration Boost (+1 to IC): Himself: made 3 more attacks thanks to +2 to hit and hit a total of 6 attacks = 3d8+3+12 = avg. 25 hp (1d8+1 is what the Bard does with a normal attack) The Fighter made 21 attacks, using the bonus on to hit to boost the Power Attack for a grand total of 84 extra damage. The Ranger hit with 4 more shots (4d8+4) and a total of 12 shots = 4d8+4+24 = 42 hp extra damage. In total: 151 hp extra damage. Without the bard, the PCs would have died, horribly. Without the Bard, they would have alot of problems (not having another social character kills them for Gather Info, Diplomacy, Bluff, Appraise, Sense Motive asf). Note here that the Bard has Extra Music and Lingering Music as his lvl1 feats.
Zardnaar 12-20-05, 11:10 PM	Our group managed to break the bard. Basically take archery feats if you want to help in combat as archery+rapid shot+haste can add up to decent damage. A bard is also better the more fighter types there are in the party. Our group had an archer Bard that managed to give everyone +8 hit/damage via singing and the party had 3 archers and a Dwarf Fighter 1/Cleric X with power attack. At level 10 or so 4 Frost giants lasted a couple of rounds. That Bard basically doubled the parties damage. As a 5th or 6th character in the party a Bard can be very valuable if built correctly and at lower levels is better than a wizard. IIRC the party was. 1 Bard (archer) 1 Scout (archer) 1 Ranger (archer) 1 Dwarven Fighter1/Cleric X 1 Druid Sometimes the Ranger had an NPC archer friend hanging around with him. It was a sick sick group and even DR wasn't that much of an issue. Ranger made an OK fighter in melee and the Druid/Cleric were nasty in Melee as well.