Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 04:15 PM	I read a large portion of the Bards Suck string and enjoyed it. I haven't read it all yet, so I hope I'm not repeating someone, but my DM (who doesn't spend any time on these boards) came up with a really good fix for the bard i''m assuming and hoping he didn't lift this off some other source book...): Modified Leadership You give the Bard the ability to attract a follower. This will use a system mirrored after the druid's animal companion rules. Basically, you can take a non-descript character from the DM guide based on half the HD as the bard. First level you have a Warrior-0 from the DMG. As you progress, your follower advances. You now have a meat shield that keeps you alive a little while longer. You can switch the follower as you advance, or advance the follower in real levels if you wish. Like an animal companion. This is in line with the essence of the Bard as a charismatic wuss that people want to be around. This would launch the Bard into the realms of usefulness almost to the level of the Druid (the most broken of all classes) and is similar to the Cleric's Turning ability in that it becomes a core function of the class, which advances as he levels up. If a paladin can have a super hero horse friend, why can't a bard have a dumb mook that helps him in a scrap? :D
Norhg 12-06-06, 04:19 PM	:rolleyes: Your logic is that 2 wusses are as good as a non-wuss?:D
Krusk 12-06-06, 04:22 PM	Because that dumb mook would essentially be a fighter. giving the bard a fighter at 1 level below seems really powerful. like really really powerful. And sort of demeaning to the fighter class, yes its regarded as the worst but come on. Another class gains a fighter companion? id say give them leadership for free at 6th level is a much more balanced solution. Personally ive always thought bards were perfectly balanced, and every party wants one. Your trecking through the woods its dark and cold, who dosnt want to travel with the guy who tells stories and sings camp songs?
WinterPsionic 12-06-06, 04:26 PM	Because that dumb mook would essentially be a fighter. giving the bard a fighter at 1 level below seems really powerful. like really really powerful. And sort of demeaning to the fighter class, yes its regarded as the worst but come on. Another class gains a fighter companion? id say give them leadership for free at 6th level is a much more balanced solution. Personally ive always thought bards were perfectly balanced, and every party wants one. Your trecking through the woods its dark and cold, who dosnt want to travel with the guy who tells stories and sings camp songs? I always wanted to play a "Dark Bard" sitting around a campfire rolling intimidate checks to make my party wet themselves from horror stories, then getting up in the middle of the night and lurking around the camp like some kind of monster....good times.:D
Bringer of autumn 12-06-06, 04:27 PM	For the love of man...BARDS DO NOT SUCK. People who say they do are clearly blind to their value.
Treantmonklvl20 12-06-06, 04:34 PM	I'm all for a powerup to the Bard, and have been debating on that point endlessly on the other thread. That said, your DM's powerup seems like too much. You point it out yourself. Making the Bard as powerful as the Druid isn't a fix, it compounds the CODzilla problem by making it the CODOBzilla problem...and that doesn't even sound catchy!
deanruel 12-06-06, 05:01 PM	I would agree with Bards needing something.. I've never found Bards to be particularly useful but there is another thread for us to debate that in. As to this thread- I honestly can see the value of the "Bardic Companion" but It just doesn't seem particularly viable in the long run. As it's basically just giving the bard player two bad players. The sort of quintissential problem with Bards is that they just aren't really heroic. And having somebody -else- do your job for you won't really help that. Still, it might work better than I assume. I'd certainly be willing to give it a shot.
CaoSlayer 12-06-06, 05:14 PM	You means the enchanter specialist feature from UA? Take a look: Cohort Upon reaching 6th level, an enchanter using this variant gains the service of a loyal cohort of the player's choice (with the game master's approval). The cohort is a 4th-level character when first gained; after that point, follow the normal rules described in the Leadership feat to determine the cohort's level, but treat the enchanter's level as being two lower than normal. The enchanter doesn't gain any followers from this ability. If the enchanter selects the Leadership feat, he attracts followers as normal, the penalty to the enchanter's effective level is eliminated, and the enchanter automatically qualifies for the "special power" modifier to his Leadership score. An enchanter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar. ummm, I would rule a bard being able to use this in place of bardic knowledge or some songs. Bards can get an familiar with a feat and also a regular cohort with several followers with one feat so your powerup is just one very lousy feat so isnt that broken.
Khan the Destroyer 12-06-06, 05:29 PM	How in the world is a bard a wuss? Or unheroic? It is what you make out of the class. If you feel that asa bard, you are not allowed to engage in combat, or use your skills, so be it. But that doesn't mean that the bard lacks solid options for doing just that. The rogus is heroic because of Sneak Attack damage? Because other than that, his combat potential is equal to the bard, if not less. The fighter is heroic because he has combat feats? He's not a wuss because he has full BAB? A character in game is a wuss because you make him a wuss. If you attribute non-mechanical attributes to the bard, then he will be whatever you want him to be. The fighter is a banana.
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:18 PM	:rolleyes: Your logic is that 2 wusses are as good as a non-wuss?:D That is funny! :ayyyy!:
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:25 PM	Because that dumb mook would essentially be a fighter. giving the bard a fighter at 1 level below seems really powerful. like really really powerful. And sort of demeaning to the fighter class, yes its regarded as the worst but come on. Another class gains a fighter companion? id say give them leadership for free at 6th level is a much more balanced solution. Personally ive always thought bards were perfectly balanced, and every party wants one. Your trecking through the woods its dark and cold, who dosnt want to travel with the guy who tells stories and sings camp songs? 1. The druid gets a wolf who can fight like a fighter. A cleric can turn a zombie like a fighter can kill one (cleric can bash him on the head too :P). A paladin gets a mount who can be a meat shield and can stomp and bite. 2. I agree with the stories, but it doesn't really translate to the table top, does it? It may be a little broken and subject to some tweaking, but I think it has promise. Having taken a few druids through games, what with the animal companions, animals summons, shape shifting and then some high level summoning scrolls, a druid is a fighting force by himself. How does that cheapen the fighter? (i mean more than he already is :P )
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:31 PM	I'm all for a powerup to the Bard, and have been debating on that point endlessly on the other thread. That said, your DM's powerup seems like too much. You point it out yourself. Making the Bard as powerful as the Druid isn't a fix, it compounds the CODzilla problem by making it the CODOBzilla problem...and that doesn't even sound catchy! hilarious!!! I've never heard (or read) CODzilla before. Is that Clerics and Druids? What is the "O"? Druids are CRAZY powerful. I agree. Our gaming group never used one for years. Then we went to Gen Con and lost the first place slot in the D&D OPEN because we missed the 3.0 QUENCH spell on the Ancient Red Dragon. We were the only party that had no kills, but the dragon got away before we could kill him. We came back to Utah and vowed to learn the ins and outs of every class. Real life has got in the way of that for the most part, but we did a 4 Druid all out bash and learned tons. Since then we have learned how broken it truly is. In fact, we leave the animal companion back at the grove so to not **** the DM off too much :P.
Norhg 12-06-06, 06:33 PM	Actually, CODzill stands for Complete Divine-zilla You buff a Cleric up with the stuff that's in there that 'till you are roughly compareable to a dragon of your Challenge Rating. That's it, nothing major really :rolleyes:
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:37 PM	You means the enchanter specialist feature from UA? Take a look: ummm, I would rule a bard being able to use this in place of bardic knowledge or some songs. Bards can get an familiar with a feat and also a regular cohort with several followers with one feat so your powerup is just one very lousy feat so isnt that broken. Well, I'm familiar with Leadership, and that comes at a high level, which this isn't. This is supposed to work more like the Druid's companion. But yes, like leadership, which, as you deftly point out, isn't that big of a deal, just a simple feat really, it just comes early enough to keep the bard alive in the early years.
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:42 PM	How in the world is a bard a wuss? Or unheroic? It is what you make out of the class. If you feel that asa bard, you are not allowed to engage in combat, or use your skills, so be it. But that doesn't mean that the bard lacks solid options for doing just that. The rogus is heroic because of Sneak Attack damage? Because other than that, his combat potential is equal to the bard, if not less. The fighter is heroic because he has combat feats? He's not a wuss because he has full BAB? A character in game is a wuss because you make him a wuss. If you attribute non-mechanical attributes to the bard, then he will be whatever you want him to be. The fighter is a banana. A champion of the Bard and a non-munchkin. I applaud your attitude. Maybe I should say "how can we make the Bard more popular to players who don't know how to play them yet." :P I like combat... a LOT. I usually play D&D Minis at conventions. I really like the technical aspect of 3.X combat. If you are playing a heavy Role Playing game with diplomacy and deals, the Bard is the obvious choice. That requires a mature campaign, DM and players. For the rest of us min/maxing adolescents, we want a Bard who can let us roll some dice! :duel: p.s. Define Banana? Is that a bad thing?
FeceMan 12-06-06, 06:43 PM	Bards are awesome.
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 06:47 PM	Bards are awesome. I've been reading through the other strings and like the druid, there seems to be a lot more there than I initially thought. I'm going to do some min/maxing and see if I can't warm up to the class as some of you obviously have. If you have any pointers (probably a need for a different string, but) let me know!
Bringer of autumn 12-06-06, 06:50 PM	I've been reading through the other strings and like the druid, there seems to be a lot more there than I initially thought. I'm going to do some min/maxing and see if I can't warm up to the class as some of you obviously have. If you have any pointers (probably a need for a different string, but) let me know! Have you ever roll played before?
Mook Farchings 12-06-06, 07:56 PM	Have you ever roll played before? Yes, but I was a doctor and my wife was a VERY naughty patient. :D Seriously, not a heavy role player. Though I have played in, placed and even won the Gen Con NASCRAG tournament. We were experts at staying alive and solving puzzles, but couldn't win until we learned how to role play. A bit out of my comfort zone, but I did it and it was fun. A little barbed, but I understand your point, which I think I already made: Bards are great in heavy role playing campaigns. I doubt they will ever be used in the D&D Open. :P
Aryxbez 12-06-06, 08:00 PM	All I think bards need (if anything) is more song related abilities I mean look at their levels, they have so many empty levels
Norhg 12-06-06, 08:03 PM	All I think bards need (if anything) is more song related abilities I mean look at their levels, they have so many empty levels They get spells, feats and skillpoints like anyone else... if their levels are empty then what is the sorcerer's or the paladin's?
The Crimson Dawn 12-06-06, 08:12 PM	Well if you want a good start to really make the bard really sweet do this...(these are all bard only no Prcs though if you do prestige you can get even more awesome stuff) 1)pick up song of the heart from Ebberon campaign setting- this increases your bonus on essentially ALL songs by one factor. If your song gives a +1 to hit and dmg it now does +2 if you get 2 HD you now get 3. 2)If you dont mind playing a good character pick up the feat words of creation-this feat doubles your bonuses with your bard song. so if you had a +3 it is now a +6. 3)In complete adventurer they also talk about different instruments giving different bonuses to your musical abilities but I am not going to list them all here. Now just using the two feats at 8th level you can have +6 ([2+1]x2) or +5 (2x2+1) on your song of courage. At level 8 that is huge even if you take a little bit of non lethal damage because of the words of creation feat. Imagine what you could do with inspire greatness when you have that many hit die... There are other ways to improve the bard song with other feats and spells but I just wanted to give you the tip of the iceberg. Oh and I gave two different numbers on the song of courage because you will have to ask your DM when you double with the words of creation (before or after song of the heart). Also remember this is with any bard with no prestige classes at all.
BurritoAlPastor 12-06-06, 08:14 PM	Sorcerers get more spells, faster, and paladins actually are pretty dead after 6th level or so. (Fortunately there's a lot of prestige class selection for them.) The thing about bards is that they're really good if you know exactly what to expect. A lot of people have a real misconception that bards are 1) combat characters, 2) rogues, or 3) spellcasters. They really aren't any of those. A good bard won't wade into melee, try to find traps, or try to nuke opponents - he'll buff, buff, and stand out of the way of the real adventurers. And bards have become much more useful than they used to be at high levels with the Complete books. Between Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, you can turn them into actual spellcasters, and Sublime Chord (or maybe Seeker of the Song, I can never remember which is which) actually allows you to kill your enemies with rockin' solos. What's not to love about that?
MerlintheTuna 12-06-06, 08:15 PM	Actually, CODzill stands for Complete Divine-zilla No it isn't. It's CoDzilla because it's a Cleric or a Druid. You don't need to leave core to have universe destroying power on your side with the clerics. CDivine helps, but it's hardly necessary. And the bard is fine.
Bopple 12-06-06, 08:30 PM	Well, bard is one of the best class for 5th-man. And if you take Sublime Chord/Ultimate Magus(Shadowcraft Mage, too, if you are a gnome) route, bard is a better sorcerer than a sorcerer.
zae 12-06-06, 08:49 PM	As it is, without prestige classes (because we know how hard they are to get into :rolleyes: ), the bard works best as the 5th man, or a cohort - everyone gets bonuses, the bard doesn't do the action himself though. This is how they were designed to be played. It is not how you need to play them though. Pick the right feats, gear etc. and your bard can generally hold his own. Usually not as good as the specialists, but this is where the next bit comes in: Prestige classes. There's generally a prestige class for each bard specialty. Having spent a few levels deciding what you want to do, have you decided you like spellcasting? Then go into Sublime Chord. Want to melee? Go into Dragon Disciple (or one of the others). The options are, well, not limitless, but there are a lot of them. Anyway, bardic cohort may or may not help - it still means the bard himself is sitting back (if that's what he was doing before), but the player might at least get to say "I sit back and (buff). But Senor Vorpal Kickasso charges in and strikes!" It could also give the bard the chance to specialise in the various teamwork based feats, along with his/her cohort, and they can double-team enemies in melee.
FeceMan 12-06-06, 09:32 PM	I've been reading through the other strings and like the druid, there seems to be a lot more there than I initially thought. I'm going to do some min/maxing and see if I can't warm up to the class as some of you obviously have. If you have any pointers (probably a need for a different string, but) let me know! Bards are meant to be played as a character who is good at a lot of things but not great at any of them. (I'm avoiding that certain phrase involving "Jack" and "trades" because I'm sick of it.) As a bard, your strengths are as follows: 1. The ability to give morale bonuses to your allies. +4 to hit and damage that stacks with almost everything is phenomenal. Do you know how many melee classes would kill for something like that? Plus the ability to give effective hit dice? Note: Outside of the Core books, Song of the Heart (Eberron) is a must-have for bards. Also, Complete Adventurer has instruments that give some nice bonuses. You can get the bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls up to +6, I believe. And, since you can get the items and feat for this early, you can get a good +3 pretty quickly. At low levels, that can make a huge difference. At high levels, it's not as potent due to high base attack bonuses and enchantments that give extra damage, but what fighter doesn't want to be able to safely drop +6 BAB for power attack? 2. Fascinate, fascinate, fascinate. There's nary a creature in the Monster Manual that can resist a bard's fascinate, as the DC is based on his perform check. If your party members need to escape or--better yet--move into position to attack, there's nothing better to give them time if they've been spotted. Without taking a single feat, one can easily get one's perform check to a +38 bonus, and that's with singing/dancing. 3. Healing--you can heal like a cleric. Not a particularly potent cleric, mind you, but you can still heal. If the cleric is stuck on the front lines next to the fighter and the party's wizard gets knocked out from a stray projectile, you get to save the day. 4. Other spells are useful, too. You can shout for damage, cast irresistable dance to cripple an enemy, dispel just as well as a wizard, and you have all sorts of mind-affecting abilities that can turn the tide of a battle. Not to mention, in Complete Adventurer, there is a feat that lets you use your bardic music to fuel your spells. If it's the end of the day and you need to get a spell off, you can sacrifice your musical abilities to do it for you. 5. You're not helpless in combat. You have 3/4 BAB, which means you can hack, slash, and prod like a rogue. With that morale bonus from your songs, you're even better. Granted, you can't do the damage of a rogue with sneak attack or power attack like a fighter, but, unlike a wizard or sorcerer without Complete Mage, you aren't useless in between castings. Furthermore, you can wear armor. A mithral chain shirt is a beautiful thing, and, with the Battle Caster feat, you can upgrade this to mithral fullplate (which is droolworthy on its own). 6. UMD is a beautiful skill. It really, really is. Wands and staffs and scrolls, oh, my! You can use them all. You can hurl fireballs, raise the dead, teleport around, and more. 7. Speaking of skills, you get plenty of them. You can act as the party's face, identify spells, sneak around, pilfer a gold piece or three, find contacts in a city, etc. 8. Bardic knowledge: it's like having ranks in every knowledge skill! With a single roll, you can find out information on illithids, griffons, dinosaurs, dragons, what a town was (and is) like, a dungeon, or that crazy old wizard on the hill.
Khan the Destroyer 12-06-06, 10:49 PM	A champion of the Bard and a non-munchkin. I applaud your attitude. Maybe I should say "how can we make the Bard more popular to players who don't know how to play them yet." :P Well... that could go for any class :). I like combat... a LOT. I usually play D&D Minis at conventions. I really like the technical aspect of 3.X combat. If you are playing a heavy Role Playing game with diplomacy and deals, the Bard is the obvious choice. That requires a mature campaign, DM and players. I really don't think that the bard is better-suited for 'heavy roleplaying' games. Any character you play will be played through roleplaying. Roleplaying doesn't mean 'social'. For the rest of us min/maxing adolescents, we want a Bard who can let us roll some dice! :duel: Well, I tend to think that most of a bard's abilities fall into place, with the exception of combat. As such, I usually devote several feats to combat for the bard. Song of the Heart: Benefits everyone. This feat keeps your effective BAB on par with a fighter until level 13. Words of Creation: Double your Inspire Courage bonus. Again, benefits everyone, including yourself. Snowflake Wardance: Spend a bardic music attempt, get your charisma modifier to attack rolls. While you sing, dance. And while you sing and dance, cut stuff. Arcane Strike: More bonuses to attack and damage. Who hits better than the fighter now? Yeah, you do. (The earliest you can nab Arcane Strike is level 9. At this level, you could sac a 3rd level spell slot, and with the other feats mentioned, you will recieve a +6 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls from Inspire Courage. This amounts to an attack roll of d20+strength+charisma+15. Your damage will be 1d6+3d4+6. An average of 15 damage. That's a fighter wielding a greatsword in two hands with a 22 strength score. Granted, it takes feats and resources, but the bard also has skill points and spells. The point is if you need a bard that can also melee, it is possible.) Before level 9, your to-hit will still be good, but you'll recieve bonus damage only from Inspire Courage (though you're still pumping up your party sneak attacker and tank). p.s. Define Banana? Is that a bad thing? My point was that my claim of a fighter being a banana is as legitimate as the claim that a bard is a wuss :). Also, other options like a simple flanking bonus or a casting of Curse of Impending Blades will make enemies easier to hit for you. And don't forget (since it hasn't been mentioned yet) the bard also has two good saves :). Gravy.
Krusk 12-07-06, 12:45 AM	1. The druid gets a wolf who can fight like a fighter. A cleric can turn a zombie like a fighter can kill one (cleric can bash him on the head too :P). A paladin gets a mount who can be a meat shield and can stomp and bite. It has room for tweaking. My point though, was that your giving a level 4 bard a level 3 warrior companion. The warrior is almost just as good as a fighter. With this set up a bard and his buddie can easily defeat most classes in battle. The druids familiar is nowhere near as good at any level as a correctly built fighter. Sure if the fighter takes only feats like pursuasive ect and the druid buffs the wolf, the wolf will tear him up. but if built correctly the fighter should be able to win in 3 rounds tops. The companion for a class should never be almost as powerful as the class itself. Thats why i suggested leadership for free, and maybe an improved leadership at level 12 and 18.
Eyeless Blond 12-07-06, 01:23 AM	No it isn't. It's CoDzilla because it's a Cleric or a Druid. You don't need to leave core to have universe destroying power on your side with the clerics. CDivine helps, but it's hardly necessary.Indeed, it was first started in a thread going on about DMs who whine about too much PrCing, and how they don't allow more than 2 base classes and 1 prestige class "to keep things from being broken." So some wise guy--I mean very smart man--replies (paraphrase): "They want to be obstinate? Fine, build a straight Cleric or Druid. Run rampant through the DM's game, rampaging unchecked over everything and everyone. Force commoners to flee in droves from your character, shouting, 'Look! It's CoDzilla!' in badly dubbed Common, while you burn his campaign into the ground." And history was born.
Level1Commoner 12-07-06, 01:24 AM	Just give leadership free then improved cohort later. Two extra feats wouldn't unbalance the bard and it would give you some protection while you sing or play guitar or whatever the hell. It does make sense for a charismatic traveler to attract a quasi-powerful follower type; bards usually do get others to do things for them. Maybe for the more independent bard there should be an alternative though.
CaoSlayer 12-07-06, 03:42 AM	Well, I'm familiar with Leadership, and that comes at a high level, which this isn't. This is supposed to work more like the Druid's companion. But yes, like leadership, which, as you deftly point out, isn't that big of a deal, just a simple feat really, it just comes early enough to keep the bard alive in the early years. But the follower is really underpowered and dumb, since if a bard needs a NPC meatshield he will just hire one henchman using core book rules or if wants more power just use charm person on someone to ask his help. The feature isnt ever worth a feat because the druid one scales greatly with levels and a warrior 16 isnt comparable to a T-Rex animal companion.