Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keldir 01-11-07, 05:08 PM	Why does it seem bards suck so bad? Can someone paint me some non-RP encounters where they might shine?
Zaistars69 01-11-07, 05:10 PM	that's like asking for a RP encounter that a fighter will shine. Each class has it's arena. the bard is the RP (usually).
Damori 01-11-07, 05:19 PM	I just started playing a campaign with a bard (level 3) and they're pretty fun, even without the added RP. Being able to gather information better than my group members, perform anything with a feat (trust me, that's a good thing), use diplomacy very well, use some less destructive but more interesting spells, and...other stuff is really cool. Inspiring your group is very useful, and eventually if you choose the War Chanter it gets pretty hot. Think about combining any two inspiring song/chants/whatevers into one. Maybe this doesn't seem totally sweet, but think of how plain the group would be without a bard.
Ryusage 01-11-07, 05:24 PM	one word: fascinate. another word:suggestion.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-11-07, 05:25 PM	Why does it seem bards suck so bad? Because you're probably only looking at damage dealt during combat rather than the incredible control a bard can gain with his fascinate and suggestion abilities. A well played bard can stop combat before it starts.
Keldir 01-11-07, 06:24 PM	It definitely is more a thinking player's character thanks for the insight guys.
rilem 01-11-07, 06:32 PM	The bard DOES deal damage in combat. A bard 8 with Inspirational boost is directing contributing +3 damage per hit per comrade. With a party of 5 players, that adds up. Take levels of Warchanter later on and you will PILE on the damage. The class has also gotten a tremendous amount of help with splatbooks. Charisma is one of the most flexible stats in the game and can be applied to Saves, Attacks, Damage, Tripping … you name it. The Sublime Chord PrC lets you get 9th level spells, making for a great Paladin/Bard "fighter-mage" type. And yes, the Fascinate/suggestion stuff, the spells, the skills ... all the things that make the class great to begin with. They do not suck, by any stretch of the imagination.
TheCobra 01-11-07, 06:33 PM	Fighters and such love bards. They're all about +1-5 on attack and damage. Bard spells are also pretty good.
Nightbluejh 01-11-07, 07:52 PM	Bards seem to be intended for buffing and I have found that they really shine, the text that you asking is when you have two or more frontline fighters. Instead of casting bulls strength one one warrior a bard will boost many or all PCs damage or to hit ability. I have more to say but my fiancee is bugging me...:embarrass
Damori 01-11-07, 08:05 PM	If you're ever fighting more than one humanoid, charm one of them (look for dumb people) and convince him that grappling his friends while you bluff-attempt to get your party members to stop fighting. Even if he isn't effective, it doesn't matter. Flank that grappled fellow! If a humanoid has a few pets, convince him to tie them up to something or secure them, then lead him away if you can. Your party can do the rest.
emeraldstreak 01-11-07, 11:25 PM	The negative prejudice about bard characters in combat is only the result of the bad PR their typical players create. In my experience, bards are the favorite pick of the players least interested in the mechanics of DnD. DnD is about roleplay, however it is also the descendant of wargamish tabletop games, and understanding rule mechanics matters in combat performance. Most classes, but not bards, have strong obvious combat-oriented uses, so even unexperienced players are naturally guided to being at least moderately powerful in combat. In terms of pure, combat-oriented powerplay, a competent bard bests competent fighter/barbarian/monk any day of the week, and she also bests paladin/ranger most of the time. She seldom bests rogue/sorcerer/wizard, and she never bests CoDzilla. Moreover, a competent bard bests any run-of-the-mill class build. On the other hand, finding quality bard builds is far harder than finding powerplay builds for most other classes, so unless you possess the rare expertise to design and play such a build yourself, you'll be better off with something else when desiring impressive combat performance.
Khan the Destroyer 01-12-07, 12:27 AM	Why does it seem bards suck so bad? :banghead:
Chimaera2000 01-12-07, 12:52 AM	I've only a couple of complaints about bards: their d6 Hit Die and inability to cast spells while using Bardic Music. While these can be remedied with feats (Improved Toughness and Melodic Casting, respectively), I wish that these could've been integrated into their core write-up. The bard is all about flexibility, so being able to be more of a supporting fighter and casting spells while using music would've allowed them to excel in this role more. However, bards far from suck, as noted above. Fascinate is ridiculously strong; the save DC is set by a Perform check! After that, you can make suggestion after suggestion until they fail the save (IIRC). Inspire Courage is incredibly useful, particularly in a large group and combined with inspirational boost (Spell Compendium). A typical bard might not personally do a lot of damage, but Inspire Courage means that they don't need to. If you're feeling sub-standard as a damage-dealing bard, keep track of how many times everyone else in the party hits. Each point of damage that Inspire Courage adds is a point of damage that you have contributed. Likewise, if my math is right, you can consider yourself as contributing 5-25% of the party's weapon damage due to their increased accuracy. If you want to add the incredibly overpowered Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds), the numbers keep getting bigger. ...of course, if you want to deal damage yourself, Inspire Greatness on yourself, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance, and/or the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness ability with Power Attack allows you to do so! When you add in their great skill set and spellcasting, bards can be quite useful inside and outside of combat. They're not powerhouses like clerics or druids, but considering how strong those classes are, that's not much of a strike against the bard.
TheMagister 01-12-07, 01:01 AM	I'm playin' my first bard in a current campaign right now, and I really love it. Support classes have always been an interest of mine, and I never really understood how much a bard can contribute. Over the course of a session, how many times has the DM shaken his head and said, "Man. Ya missed by one!", or some such remark. When your bard caused a miss to hit (via bonuses from inspire courage or buffs), call that hit "your" damage, since it wouldn't have happened without you. With a little cooperation from my DM, I totaled up my bard's damage across a session, and he consistently contributed as much or more than the party tank and the party damage dealer. I built him to focus on bardsong, via the Song of the Heart featEberron and the Inspirational Boost spell, and later the Words of Creation featBoED. At level 9 I'm adding +6/+6 to hit and damage, and +6 to morale vs. fear/charm. It's pretty nice (understatement). Not to mention the "special friends" that we come across that are susceptible to charm! The first time I charmed an ogre and then buffed him to the sky...well...that was a fun session. WANDS: UMD + all the spells that're actually on the spell list make a bard a real hole-plugger when the chips are down and the cleric's busy. There's a lot of variety in 4th level or lower spells, and I'm the "I can use that!" member of the party. A dwarven thrower? Yeah, hand that here. It's cool. TM
ShinoAburame 01-12-07, 01:18 AM	Bard is support, it's not suppose to pwn by itself. It either has to be mono-powerd or a supporter, if it were both it'd be a cleric or druid. Err.. I mean broken.
Redja_the_Foolish 01-12-07, 01:27 AM	Bards can make excellent melee and ranged characters, with tactics including arcane strike at the middle levels, tripping and disarming with a whip or one of the special whips. They have some very good buffing spells which can be used to much greater effect together with buffs from a cleric. They have some spells which are very good in melee comat if they choose them. Do not overlook the effects of the masterwork instruments in complete adventurer. They have healing spells and are able to potentially use any magic item they encounter they can often use a wand of cure light wounds for example. They can be excellent debuffers in combat with mind affecting spells, sonic damage spells, hold person, hold monster, silence spells, dispel magic and greater dispel magic, summoning monsters not to mention all the available utility spells such as their divinations and illusions. Bards can be the ultimate jack of all trades, master of all with the right stats and magic items. They are one of the few classes which can support, buff heal, use many good spells, do well in melee and ranged combat and be good in social situations such as using diplomacy, sense motive and bluff all in the same character. Some of the prestige classes can make the poor bard even more powerful. A melee bard with the right melee feats and the dragon disciple prestige class is very weak in the magic department but truly fantastic in melee if he has the right feats and magical items. The bard/dragon disciple would be considered very weak by many, and there are better combinations to use if you want pure power. They will however not be as powerful as say a single class sorcerer in magic and not as good as a pure warrior character in combat.
Silverthumb128 01-12-07, 01:31 AM	Bard: "Hey guys, I have two good saves, a buttload of skills, Arcane healing, and I can rock out on my lute in such a manner that it makes you stronger!!" Party: "I don't like it." Bard: "*Suggestion*You do like it..." Party: "When you put it like that, yeah, we do like it."
legophreak 01-12-07, 01:41 AM	Bards are by far my favorite. The RP elements are way above most other classes Suggestion DC set by perform is insane, especially if you have lots of Cha and skill focus perform. 2 good saves is never bad. and my DM gives me bonus XP when i actually play my guitar as the perform check. how's that for some monster RP eh? I have found that most people that don't like the bard don't truly know how to play one effectively. It is definitely the thinking man's class for sure. Everyone should be required to play a bard at least once in their D&D career.
CaoSlayer 01-12-07, 03:50 AM	Can someone paint me some non-RP encounters where they might shine? How to beat anything without mental inmunity with a bard 16+: Otto dance with regular maximize rod, enemy dances for 4 rounds. Blast, hit, do-whatever-nasty-you-want for 3 rounds. Repeat. -------- And now beyond the useless 1vs1 scenarios you can find many combinations of how screw enemies in combination with your friends. Grease against heavy armor cleric/fighter = screwed fighter/mage. Dominate/hold person against warrior = screwed. fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue. Ready action silence spell = screwed caster Silence + gappling barbarian/monk = totally screwed caster. Dimensional Door all the melee party members into the face of the enemy. BBEG: screwed mage. Confusion/song of dischord against BBEG minions: screwed BBEG. Illusion figment against mindless undead construct: screwed gollem. Bard + Dominated dude level 20 = anything screwed. Bard + Rogue with improved invisibility = anything critable screwed. Bard + Warrior with inspire courage + haste = anything in melee range screwed. All core.
Keldir 01-12-07, 02:05 PM	Thanks for the input, I think it is more an issue of the character just wanting to swing rather than play smarter.
HxHunter 01-12-07, 05:25 PM	I've only a couple of complaints about bards: their d6 Hit Die and inability to cast spells while using Bardic Music. While these can be remedied with feats (Improved Toughness and Melodic Casting, respectively), I wish that these could've been integrated into their core write-up. The bard is all about flexibility, so being able to be more of a supporting fighter and casting spells while using music would've allowed them to excel in this role more. However, bards far from suck, as noted above. Fascinate is ridiculously strong; the save DC is set by a Perform check! After that, you can make suggestion after suggestion until they fail the save (IIRC). Inspire Courage is incredibly useful, particularly in a large group and combined with inspirational boost (Spell Compendium). A typical bard might not personally do a lot of damage, but Inspire Courage means that they don't need to. If you're feeling sub-standard as a damage-dealing bard, keep track of how many times everyone else in the party hits. Each point of damage that Inspire Courage adds is a point of damage that you have contributed. Likewise, if my math is right, you can consider yourself as contributing 5-25% of the party's weapon damage due to their increased accuracy. If you want to add the incredibly overpowered Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds), the numbers keep getting bigger. ...of course, if you want to deal damage yourself, Inspire Greatness on yourself, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance, and/or the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness ability with Power Attack allows you to do so! When you add in their great skill set and spellcasting, bards can be quite useful inside and outside of combat. They're not powerhouses like clerics or druids, but considering how strong those classes are, that's not much of a strike against the bard. I don't have the book with me but there is a feat in CM that allows to cast spells while using your bardic music.
itwasntme 01-12-07, 05:30 PM	Bards are by far my favorite. The RP elements are way above most other classes Suggestion DC set by perform is insane, especially if you have lots of Cha and skill focus perform. 2 good saves is never bad. and my DM gives me bonus XP when i actually play my guitar as the perform check. how's that for some monster RP eh? I have found that most people that don't like the bard don't truly know how to play one effectively. It is definitely the thinking man's class for sure. Everyone should be required to play a bard at least once in their D&D career. Extra XP? House ruleing there
itwasntme 01-12-07, 05:35 PM	How to beat anything without mental inmunity with a bard 16+: Otto dance with regular maximize rod, enemy dances for 4 rounds. Blast, hit, do-whatever-nasty-you-want for 3 rounds. Repeat. -------- And now beyond the useless 1vs1 scenarios you can find many combinations of how screw enemies in combination with your friends. Grease against heavy armor cleric/fighter = screwed fighter/mage. Dominate/hold person against warrior = screwed. fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue. Ready action silence spell = screwed caster Silence + gappling barbarian/monk = totally screwed caster. Dimensional Door all the melee party members into the face of the enemy. BBEG: screwed mage. Confusion/song of dischord against BBEG minions: screwed BBEG. Illusion figment against mindless undead construct: screwed gollem. Bard + Dominated dude level 20 = anything screwed. Bard + Rogue with improved invisibility = anything critable screwed. Bard + Warrior with inspire courage + haste = anything in melee range screwed. All core. there are servol answers First many monsters are immune to mind effecting meaning many of the bards effects Second there are items that allow you to avoid many of the spells that He can cast but useoly dosnt happin as the object rather avoid something more powerfull coming from a wizard or druid or something eles there are more reasons (Tons) but hears a few short ones Improved Invis=not up to par then Invis on servol reasons (one of which is being able to make a spot check of 20? to see the person) Bard/Fighter just for haste? no need to multy class for that a Fighter/Barbian hell anyone can get haste ... again mind effecting immunity monsters and if your talking about players then on PvP they should get some immunity to things that the bard can use in short many counters to the bards
CaoSlayer 01-12-07, 05:38 PM	Actually playing yourself the gitar it is bad roleplaying. Do the fighter player get experience by wielding a sword IRL? Do the rogue player get experience by unlocking a real lock? Do the wizard player get experience by casting a real spell? Do the monk player runs 320 feets in six seconds? You are not your character and so you should not know or do what your character knows or can do.
Becks 01-12-07, 06:30 PM	It's just my favored character, just because it's the funniest ever. Who wonder if it is good: Never play one, never play with one or don't have a good GM to play a bard.
Becks 01-12-07, 06:33 PM	one word: fascinate. another word:suggestion. I can't say better... pehaps as good as you: song of the heart, words of creation, melodic casting, improved boast, horn, vestment of legends. And I sure there is many more good words.
legophreak 01-12-07, 06:34 PM	Actually playing the guitar yourself is bad roleplaying. Do the fighter player get experience by wielding a sword IRL? Do the rogue player get experience by unlocking a real lock? Do the wizard player get experience by casting a real spell? Do the monk player runs 320 feets in six seconds? You are not your character and so you should not know or do what your character knows or can do. Well, depending on the mood of the game... The fighters will hit each other with foam weaponry The rogue does bring his lockpicks (thank god too cause i locked my keys in the car that night) The wizard is always stoned, so i'm sure he is seeing real spells There are no monks in our campaign so this doesn't apply. The only reason i was getting bonus xp for the guitar playing at the time was because my real world skill level in playing a guitar pretty much matched the ranks my character had in Perform (if that's even possible to equate such a thing). Plus, this award was the players idea, not the DM's. AND...on top of that, it was a competition at the town's local fair. You could either sing a song, tell a story, or recite a poem. This bonus XP is not all the time, but more of a special situation brought on by one of the "important" NPC's Needless to say that i have since become much better at playing while my character still has the same amount of ranks, so I don't think i'll be able to get away with that again but it was most definately a good time while it lasted... So at the time, myself and the DM felt that playing the instrument was indeed roleplaying. And if you must know...i didn't succeed on my perform check and I lost the competition (meaning i fumbled a few chords while playing. Damn you F chord!!!)
legophreak 01-12-07, 06:36 PM	(one of which is being able to make a spot check of 20? to see the person) A spot check of 20 doesn't allow you to "see" the person. You just know that someone or something is near you, but you can't tell exactly where it is.
emeraldstreak 01-12-07, 06:39 PM	in short many counters to the bards In short, learn the game. In long, bards are about skills. They are the best Use Magic Device class. If the monster is immune to mind effects, just blast it with a wand of Orb of Force. Bards need not spend money on pricey weapons, nor on spells. Their spell progression is slower, many DCs are based on Perform, so they don't need cloak of Cha +6 fast either. Instead, they buy cheap items with skill bonus to UMD and use wands with 95% success rate. That's called wandslinging and it is very, very powerful.
malignor 01-12-07, 06:43 PM	Bards kick bottom! UMD + spells + 3/4BAB + light armor with no ASF + skills + bardic music... They're the ultimate utility character. I've played 3 bards in my days, and all of them were the best thing since sliced bread. Wanna do damage? Get some wands and the Quickdraw feat. But that's only 1 aspect of the Bard.
navar100 01-12-07, 06:54 PM	In short, learn the game. In long, bards are about skills. They are the best Use Magic Device class. If the monster is immune to mind effects, just blast it with a wand of Orb of Force. Bards need not spend money on pricey weapons, nor on spells. Their spell progression is slower, many DCs are based on Perform, so they don't need cloak of Cha +6 fast either. Instead, they buy cheap items with skill bonus to UMD and use wands with 95% success rate. That's called wandslinging and it is very, very powerful. Warlocks can do it better.
Treantmonklvl20 01-12-07, 06:57 PM	In short, learn the game.<snip> They are the best Use Magic Device class. So should you, check out the Warlock...
emeraldstreak 01-12-07, 07:28 PM	And the Artificer too, but neither is core.
CaoSlayer 01-13-07, 01:17 PM	there are servol answers First many monsters are immune to mind effecting meaning many of the bards effects Second there are items that allow you to avoid many of the spells that He can cast but useoly dosnt happin as the object rather avoid something more powerfull coming from a wizard or druid or something eles there are more reasons (Tons) but hears a few short ones Improved Invis=not up to par then Invis on servol reasons (one of which is being able to make a spot check of 20? to see the person) Bard/Fighter just for haste? no need to multy class for that a Fighter/Barbian hell anyone can get haste ... again mind effecting immunity monsters and if your talking about players then on PvP they should get some immunity to things that the bard can use in short many counters to the bards Check how many monsters in the game comes with mind inmunity, only two subtypes are inmunes, constructs are very rare and never are BBEG material and undead saving some campaigns arent numerous. I can be that most that the 90% of creatures you fight against have not mind inmunity unless the DM wants to do it. And a bard can be still useful against mind inmunity creatures because he can buff easily or just can use cure X wounds against undead. A buffed bard outfights a fighter so easily that isnt funny and in addition contribute with more spells and skills. Improved invisibility is a combat buff and as have been said unless the creature can see the invisible, the rogue will get all the benefits from the spell and isnt just a DC 20 check, is a +20 to your hide, so that means a DC of 1d20 + rogue dex bonus + rogue ranks in hide +20. Since most rogues have his most high score in dex and max ranks in hide guess that is almost imposible to spot an invisible rogue.
Valwryn 01-13-07, 03:48 PM	An item that casts explosive runes once per day, the erase spell, and suggestion is probably the greatest combination of things I have ever discovered. True you can't force them to read it.. but you can force children to give notes to enemy soldiers... :( I was an evil bard. Also the lingering song feat lets you sing on the first round of combat and then engage in combat for 9 more rounds before you need to sing again. And Whirling blades spell lets you add your charisma modifer to your attack and damage in a 60 foot line. It's not barbarian damage, but it helps.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 01-13-07, 04:18 PM	It definitely is more a thinking player's character thanks for the insight guys. That's not true at all. A bard can take Craft Arms and Armor. Magic item creation is a huge advantage many overlook. BAne weapons, such as Bane Arrows, are cheap for the extra 2d6 damage they add. He also gets Use Magic Device, which will allow him use of all those cleric/magic spells that help buff such have Divine Power or Shapechange. Arcane Strike is a great feat for the Bard as it adds a bonus to hit on all attacks equal to the level of spell sacrifised + 1d4 damage per level of spell sacrificed. This isn't broken as some builds, but it does make the melee bard a good build. With 3 attacks at 15/10/5, the bard looks weak. Sacrifice a 6th level spell under Haste and it looks like 22/22/17/12. Add in Good Hope for 24/24/19/14. Add in Inspire Greatness for 24/24/19/14. Add in Divine Power for 24/24/24/19/14. Add in the fact that he can get a +5 weapon before a fighter and he is dealing 1d8 (longsword) + 2 good hope + 6d4 damage before adding strength or using a +1 Bane weapon with a Greater Magic Weapon spell cast on it, makes the bard not suck in combat as one might imagine. The place where a Bard shines is with his skills. Improvisation allows a huge bonus to skill checks. A Diplomacy check can end a hostile encounter before it starts. He can then offer to entertain and then Fascinate/Suggestion. Bard are by no means "weak", but they are best when used to neutralize encounters through communication rather than force. With Diplomacy and Bluff, a Bard could literally stop a fight and get them to agree to give you over all their treasure without a loss of a single HP.
Finfreeze 01-13-07, 04:27 PM	To improve bards, I like bumping their HD to d8 and standardizing their Inspire Courage ability so it improves at 1st, 5th, and every five levels thereafter. But yeah, they aren't that bad. They have Fascinate/Suggestion, some spellcasting, good skills, and pretty good buffs. They're nice as a fifth character and are especially delicious if you have a bunch of cohorts/guest characters in your party.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 01-13-07, 04:32 PM	I also think forget that while the Bard is best at social encounters, they are 2nd best at everything esle. The have middle BAB for combat. They has 6 skill points/level. The have Cure spells. (A Cure light wounds from a Bard is the same as a Cure from a Cleric, and both are spontaneously cast). And Arcane spells. A bard can provide secondary combat, skill, healing, or arcane magic depending on what the situation requires. No other class can say that.