Bards, the unloved true mages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bards, the unloved true mages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pres_man
06-11-07, 05:53 PM Looking at bards compared to both sorcerers and wizards, I noticed that bards have pretty much the same set of skills as them, but more, including the skill use magic device (which uses their big stat). Bards also get more skill points and with a moderate INT score they can be the eldritch knowledge masters and with their use magic device skill cranked out they can be casting magic left and right from scrolls, wands, and staffs.

Anybody else played a bard as THE mage before?
Vaalingrade Ashland
06-11-07, 06:04 PM Constantly. In a lot of out games, the spellcasters are solely devoted to artilary while the bard is the omni mage with buffs, utlility spells and environment control on lock.
OneWinged4ngel
06-11-07, 06:07 PM Anybody else played a bard as THE mage before?

Certainly. Heck, there are tons of great builds for it on CharOp. A Sublime Chord dip alone makes the bard a great spellcaster.
Johnny_Angel
06-11-07, 06:14 PM A lot of people prefer Sublime Chord, I usually like to take the Seeker of The Song PrC.

Really though, PrCs aren't even needed. A straight bard can be pretty good too. The thing I like about the bard is that it's very flexible; you can focus your bard to do just about anything.

One thing I've noticed though is that many people seem to think bards have to play an instrument. There are a lot more styles of perform than playing something. You could sing or chant if you wanted to; that would make your character more like a sorc or wiz; you could just say that your verbal components are done via a certain rythm.

Many other types of perform can be used as well - perform:monologue, perform: air guitar, perform: poetry reading, perform: verbal insults, perform: BoVD Fat Jokes.... You can really tweak the bard class to fit your style and vision; that's what I like about it.
InkBlot
06-11-07, 06:31 PM I noticed this too, and I realy realy want to play a bard like that - as the ultimate all-around-utility mage. I haven't had the opportunity to play make a new character yet, but next time a game starts I think I'll roll up a bard.

However, I can't stand the performance based class features (yes, even perform:monologue turns me away). So I'm going to beg the DM to let me swap them out for something else (like bonus feats, sneak attack, or some of the ranger goodies).
Qwicksilver
06-11-07, 06:49 PM Certainly. Heck, there are tons of great builds for it on CharOp. A Sublime Chord dip alone makes the bard a great spellcaster.

For some reason I don't like Sublime Chord. I suppose I don't like it because it's a prc that has almost no downsides and takes a bard away from being a generalist. I personally believe that prcs should sacrifice some amount of power for new abilities given in prcs. You lose relatively little with sublime chord, and you gain full spell progression plus some very good uses of bardic music. By becoming more mage like, you automatically gain much more power, I feel. Some people feel that prcs should fix "underpowered" classes, but i disagree with that (that's a whole other topic though).

Bards are great though, they get a lot of good spells, just not enough spells/day to use all of them. As mages, one would be surprised how much they help, and their spell selection already gears them less towards blasting and more towards buffing and utility spells. They do about average for fighting, and skill monkeying, but they really excel in party buffing and social interaction.
OneWinged4ngel
06-11-07, 06:55 PM For some reason I don't like Sublime Chord. I suppose I don't like it because it's a prc that has almost no downsides and takes a bard away from being a generalist. It makes them MORE versatile... so I'm not sure how it stops them from being a generalist. Suddenly being better at something doesn't make you worse at something else.
Qwicksilver
06-11-07, 07:25 PM they sacrifice hit dice, bab, and bardic music for magical power. That may make them better at casting spells, and give them more power overall, but it stops them from being able to fulfill combat roles. A sublime chord gets more versatility in the way you say by becoming more of a caster. Yes they get more versatility by virtue of spells, but they become less bards and more casters. I just don't like the idea that people will take bard levels just so that they can go sublime chord.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pres_man 06-11-07, 05:53 PM	Looking at bards compared to both sorcerers and wizards, I noticed that bards have pretty much the same set of skills as them, but more, including the skill use magic device (which uses their big stat). Bards also get more skill points and with a moderate INT score they can be the eldritch knowledge masters and with their use magic device skill cranked out they can be casting magic left and right from scrolls, wands, and staffs. Anybody else played a bard as THE mage before?
Vaalingrade Ashland 06-11-07, 06:04 PM	Constantly. In a lot of out games, the spellcasters are solely devoted to artilary while the bard is the omni mage with buffs, utlility spells and environment control on lock.
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 06:07 PM	Anybody else played a bard as THE mage before? Certainly. Heck, there are tons of great builds for it on CharOp. A Sublime Chord dip alone makes the bard a great spellcaster.
Johnny_Angel 06-11-07, 06:14 PM	A lot of people prefer Sublime Chord, I usually like to take the Seeker of The Song PrC. Really though, PrCs aren't even needed. A straight bard can be pretty good too. The thing I like about the bard is that it's very flexible; you can focus your bard to do just about anything. One thing I've noticed though is that many people seem to think bards have to play an instrument. There are a lot more styles of perform than playing something. You could sing or chant if you wanted to; that would make your character more like a sorc or wiz; you could just say that your verbal components are done via a certain rythm. Many other types of perform can be used as well - perform:monologue, perform: air guitar, perform: poetry reading, perform: verbal insults, perform: BoVD Fat Jokes.... You can really tweak the bard class to fit your style and vision; that's what I like about it.
InkBlot 06-11-07, 06:31 PM	I noticed this too, and I realy realy want to play a bard like that - as the ultimate all-around-utility mage. I haven't had the opportunity to play make a new character yet, but next time a game starts I think I'll roll up a bard. However, I can't stand the performance based class features (yes, even perform:monologue turns me away). So I'm going to beg the DM to let me swap them out for something else (like bonus feats, sneak attack, or some of the ranger goodies).
Qwicksilver 06-11-07, 06:49 PM	Certainly. Heck, there are tons of great builds for it on CharOp. A Sublime Chord dip alone makes the bard a great spellcaster. For some reason I don't like Sublime Chord. I suppose I don't like it because it's a prc that has almost no downsides and takes a bard away from being a generalist. I personally believe that prcs should sacrifice some amount of power for new abilities given in prcs. You lose relatively little with sublime chord, and you gain full spell progression plus some very good uses of bardic music. By becoming more mage like, you automatically gain much more power, I feel. Some people feel that prcs should fix "underpowered" classes, but i disagree with that (that's a whole other topic though). Bards are great though, they get a lot of good spells, just not enough spells/day to use all of them. As mages, one would be surprised how much they help, and their spell selection already gears them less towards blasting and more towards buffing and utility spells. They do about average for fighting, and skill monkeying, but they really excel in party buffing and social interaction.
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 06:55 PM	For some reason I don't like Sublime Chord. I suppose I don't like it because it's a prc that has almost no downsides and takes a bard away from being a generalist. It makes them MORE versatile... so I'm not sure how it stops them from being a generalist. Suddenly being better at something doesn't make you worse at something else.
Qwicksilver 06-11-07, 07:25 PM	they sacrifice hit dice, bab, and bardic music for magical power. That may make them better at casting spells, and give them more power overall, but it stops them from being able to fulfill combat roles. A sublime chord gets more versatility in the way you say by becoming more of a caster. Yes they get more versatility by virtue of spells, but they become less bards and more casters. I just don't like the idea that people will take bard levels just so that they can go sublime chord.