Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quicksilverrogue 05-25-04, 07:52 AM	Well.. I am yet to see much to boost bards... I have seen Dragonsong Lyracist..which I think is a great prestige class for any bard... and then the feat Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds, anyting anyone has found?? Come on.. lets help make bards worth playing again!!
Salla 05-25-04, 07:59 AM	Bards are already worth playing, if you know *how* to play them (as a support character, not a combatant).
Thermanshs 05-25-04, 08:01 AM	First off, Bards ARE worth playing the way they stand in the PH.Don't turn this into an if's and but's debate. Also take a look in DRAGON's issue #311.There are some very nice prestige bards.I especially favor the worldspeaker in there.
Thermanshs 05-25-04, 08:02 AM	:D Seems Salla got me first
quicksilverrogue 05-25-04, 04:19 PM	When I say "worth playing" I mean that they can do more than just boost with regular bard songs. Have we found anything to make Bards a bit more usefull?
BlaineTog 05-25-04, 04:32 PM	Um, yeah. His 3/4 BaB His pretty nice selection of Weapons And perhaps most importantly: his spells Bards can do a *lot* more than just sing. More so than most other classes. That is why Bards are often refered to as JoATs (Jacks of all Trades).
Thermanshs 05-25-04, 04:35 PM	Another field where bards excel at is social interaction.If you have time and get pleasure from rping then bards are on TOP priority...these guys if played smart dominate worlds...
Geethree 05-25-04, 04:42 PM	Bards are incredibly useful as is. They get good spells, good musical abilities, can fight decently, and have an excellent skill list. They don't need to be powered up. You say that they need to be "worth playing again," but they are already worth playing. In fact, one might say they are overpowered in a game that focuses on social interaction and not combat. Though, there is a bard prestige class in Complete Divine, the Evangelist.
Thermanshs 05-25-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Geethree In fact, one might say they are overpowered in a game that focuses on social interaction and not combat. I'm already one of those who DO beleive this fact...
Daybreaker 05-26-04, 12:15 AM	What if you want to play a Bard who is a good combatant, though? Just theoretically. I have this idea of a big, bruiser Bard, and I've made it work before, but mostly just by getting real lucky with HP rolls and using up a feat to take a martial weapon proficiency.
Geethree 05-26-04, 12:36 AM	Bards are already proficient with the longsword (among other decent weapons), light armor, and shields. They're only problem is their HP, which can be helped with feats like Toughness (or better yet, Improved Toughness). A level or two of fighter might help.
Telas 05-26-04, 12:36 AM	If you want a bruiser Bard, take a couple levels of Fighter or Barbarian.... I always wanted a Rogue/Bard, but quick with a rapier, maybe TWF with a dagger.... I finally decided start Bard and take a level of Fighter every few levels, and get Rogue-ish with the skill selection. :teach: Remember, beginning characters are like high-school graduates. They may think they can do everything, but they can't. (edited to remove all references to makeup)
Capt.Fang 05-26-04, 12:50 AM	Bards are easily the best class to play - yes, role play. Bards have been my favorite for years. It's a sad little D&D player that thinks they are not "useful" or are aren't worth playing. Shame on you little gamer!!!!
quicksilverrogue 05-26-04, 06:51 AM	Don't think I am crapping on bards... I have been a lone advocate of the Bard in my rp groups. And dont even say I am not a roleplayer... trust me I am privy to groups that are content to spend nearly complete gaming sessions within town relaxing, drinking, and having fun...
Sir Ferdinand 05-26-04, 08:36 AM	I've found the best way to boost Bards. First start as a 1st level Bard, then after tons and tons of experience, you should be at 20th level. There's no other or better way to boost Bard. Bards are already a great class to play, they were good even in 3rd edition (IMO), but 3.5 edition made them a lot more powerful. Maybe even a bit too powerful, not sure about that. I'm currently playing a melee Bard (my first 3.5 edition Bard), and even though melee isn't where Bards are great at, he's still doing great. And I'm only 5th level, so I haven't had a full use of all of the Bards abilities yet, not even close.
Nithendil 05-26-04, 11:54 AM	To actually answer your question, look here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=140225
CaoSlayer 05-26-04, 01:19 PM	seems that in 3.5 wizards have one rule: "one bardic prc per book" this is because in 3.0, there was just THREE bardic prcs from all the books (and two were in the same book).
HighlandsTraveller 05-26-04, 02:00 PM	Around here this question is like throwing a golden apple with the words "for the fairest" into the message board, but oh well here goes. Yes, the bard is good in campaigns that use a lot of social skills. No, the bard is not very good outside of that even with 3.5 improvments. Too few spells and lower level spells keep him from being a threat with magic. Mediocre BAB and hps combined with no divine power, righteous might, sneak attack, or wildshape means he'll have little effect in combat. And outside combat he doesn't add value to the party quite like those other med BAB classes do either. A lot of classes can get the social skills but only a rogue can really deal with traps. The divine casters have 9 full levels of spells, enough said. Maybe if you had a lot of combat characters then bards buff songs and spells would be have greater effect. So, yes, you are correct the bard is still underpowered. There are alot of overpowered feats, items, and PrC's outside of core and the main builderbooks (and even a few of those in the 2 new builder books) so just be nicer about allowing monk and bard stuff and stricter in what you allow thats good for divine casters. I now think thats the easiest way to balance things out without having to change the core rules. If you're a player trying to build a bard character I recommend you stay with the class for all 20 levels. Most PrCs will stop your progression in either skills or spells, and even if they don't you are just about guaranteed to lose most of the other stuff like bard knowledge, BAB, bard songs, or all the other small details that make a bard. Warrior types are usually fine if their BAB and hp's keep going up as casters are when their spellcasting level is kept at full pace, but a bard is made up of a dozen things. Now that the holy liberator is nerfed I wouldn't even bother with a level of fighter. Arcane strike was intriguing but ultimately I don't believe bards have enough spells or hp's to use it. The new PrCs are just as bad as the old - war chanter is a class for fighters and the 1 lvl of bard needed to qualify, and it didn't even have the listen skill! (Virtuoso did the same thing which makes me wonder if they are out to screw the bard intentionally. 2 classes whose prime abilities are based on perform but have no ear??!?) 1 level of evil evangelist would be too good but most people either have neutral and good parties (the majoirty) or have all evil parties (the minority). The above referenced post looks like it has some great stuff to think about but beware. For example, the idea of using the fascinate / suggestion song while invisible won't work as the bard most be seen for it to work!
Geethree 05-26-04, 02:13 PM	Yes, the bard is good in campaigns that use a lot of social skills. No, the bard is not very good outside of that even with 3.5 improvments.You underestimate the bard. Though they cannot deal a lot of damage in combat, they can aid in many other ways. First and probably foremost, the bard's musical abilities can greatly bolster his allies. Secondly, his spells (while not damaging) can stall or otherwise disable his enemies. And outside combat he doesn't add value to the party quite like those other med BAB classes do either. A lot of classes can get the social skills but only a rogue can really deal with traps. Social skills are not nearly the same thing as magical enchantments. You can roll diplomacy all you like, but the bard can just cast charm person or use his fascinate ability and still have social skills to fall back on. Nobody surpasses the bard in social situations.
Frozen Diamond 05-26-04, 02:35 PM	:uh-huh: Pump the bards? Don't they have enough already? They are of the most, well, the most, versatile class there is. The best 5th member of any group, mostly.
Daybreaker 05-26-04, 03:10 PM	It is kind of funny, though, that it seems like everyone agrees that every other class can beat up a Bard. I suppose some class had to be the wimpiest in a fight. One of them was bound to be it. But you'd think it would be a little more arguable, y'know? You'd think that somebody out there would say, "No, really, you can make a tough bard without multi-classing." I mean, nobody says, "To make a tougher Sorcerer, take a few levels of Fighter!"
Nithendil 05-26-04, 04:23 PM	Actually I think the bard is quite balanced, albeit I believe it needs a little boost in some areas: 1. Inspire courage needs a jump start. With a horn (+1) and words of creation (doubles intitial) it's really nice, but if you're playing in a "core books" only, inspire courage is a joke IMHO. I would like a core feat that compromises between the two extremes (ie, +1 moral bonus to inspire courage and the horn no longer adds a bonus). 2. Core feats are horrible. Are there even any specific to a bard, or even any core that improve his music or bardic knowledge? Lingering song and words of creation are nice, but are non-core. 3. This one is perhaps the most controversial. IMHO, I believe the bard should be able to cast 1 additional spell / day, or at least change the "0 - but if you have a bonus score you can cast spells". If you are in a low magic-item campaign this might be very difficult to accomplish. I wouldn't change the spellist however, I actually think they did a good job with that.
meabolex 05-26-04, 04:41 PM	I've submitted a Redgar's article about the bard spells (hopefully it will appear whenever), but here's a diluted discussion about why the core, standard bard is hard to min-max: The best thing you can do as a bard is do something alright and then move on to the next thing. You do NOT want to specialize as a bard, in both equipment and abilities. The feats should be as generally selected as possible. The equipment should try to deal with as many situations as possible. You should have a decent weapon as well as decent defensive and offensive magical items. Min/Maxing, as our friend trollbill tells us, is to maximize advantages while minimizing disadvantages in a character. Most M/M characters try to maximize one aspect of the character (the melee attack, the spells, defense, etc). This is NOT what you do with the bard. A M/M bard is a bard that has no maximized individual abilities. Rather, the maximization should take place in the number of competent abilities. The bard should only max perform as skill -- he should have knowledges and ranks in various skills. Charisma is important to a bard, but a bard does not need to make a primary investment in Charisma to utilize his spells (see my article about that when it comes out). In short, you can't min/max the core bard the same way you can everything else. You have to maximize purpose rather than the numbers.
CaoSlayer 05-27-04, 06:47 AM	Originally posted by Daybreaker It is kind of funny, though, that it seems like everyone agrees that every other class can beat up a Bard. I suppose some class had to be the wimpiest in a fight. One of them was bound to be it. But you'd think it would be a little more arguable, y'know? You'd think that somebody out there would say, "No, really, you can make a tough bard without multi-classing." I mean, nobody says, "To make a tougher Sorcerer, take a few levels of Fighter!" First thing, D&D isnt oriented to PvP and neither in one vs one combat, usually the bard is one in a group and still... That isnt quite right, a bard can perfecly charm, dominate, confuse, stun, hold, make dance, laught, fascinate any warrior class... A rogue dont have any chance against a bard, they share the same combat stats and with a single spell that gives concalement, the sneak attack is negated and still the bard have the songs giving him the edge. Sorcerer-wizard-druid-cleric. well, those are hard fights, they are the kings of the game... but the bard it is the pimping prince... a smart bard would search the close combat and with the correct readied actions and a silence spell they can beat an unprepared caster. ------ ummm, I dont have much time, I will talk about bards in team later :behold:
Sir Ferdinand 05-27-04, 07:12 AM	Originally posted by Nithendil Actually I think the bard is quite balanced, albeit I believe it needs a little boost in some areas: 1. Inspire courage needs a jump start. With a horn (+1) and words of creation (doubles intitial) it's really nice, but if you're playing in a "core books" only, inspire courage is a joke IMHO. I would like a core feat that compromises between the two extremes (ie, +1 moral bonus to inspire courage and the horn no longer adds a bonus). What do you mean? Inspire Courage now goes up to +4, so what's wrong with it? At lower levels it's only +1, but at lower levels that +1 is heck of an effective. It has saved our party countless of times by now. 2. Core feats are horrible. Are there even any specific to a bard, or even any core that improve his music or bardic knowledge? Lingering song and words of creation are nice, but are non-core. Item creation feats are very good choices for Bards as are some metamagic feats. Improved Initiative is great as if you can start first, you can immediately use Insipire Courage and give bonuses to your allies. Those acrchery feats are useful for most Bards if they don't want to take part in melee combat. Especially Precise Shot (and Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) is useful as you can now igonre the -4 penalty which you'd take if you shoot into melee. And then there's those +2/+2 to some skills as Bards have the best skill list. 3. This one is perhaps the most controversial. IMHO, I believe the bard should be able to cast 1 additional spell / day, or at least change the "0 - but if you have a bonus score you can cast spells". If you are in a low magic-item campaign this might be very difficult to accomplish. I wouldn't change the spellist however, I actually think they did a good job with that. I don't see anything wrong with Bard's casting either. Sure it takes some time before they can cast many spells, but eventually they do like all the other casters.
CaoSlayer 05-27-04, 07:22 AM	ummm, I actually dont like most item creation feats for bards... the bardic spell list it is kinda limited and so, arent totally used... I only can see the wand creation and maybe magical weapon/armor ones as usefull... the wands are a great way to get more spells per day, maybe the weakest point of the bard casting and are some spells great to be "wanded" like silence, cure wounds and haste.
baerdith 05-27-04, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Daybreaker What if you want to play a Bard who is a good combatant, though? Just theoretically. I have this idea of a big, bruiser Bard, and I've made it work before, but mostly just by getting real lucky with HP rolls and using up a feat to take a martial weapon proficiency. 1 level of Barbarian then Bard. This would give you a MAJOR whoop ***** bard: Sing a song to provoke rage get Bard buff AND rage.
baerdith 05-27-04, 12:18 PM	Originally posted by Nithendil Actually I think the bard is quite balanced, albeit I believe it needs a little boost in some areas: My only quibble with the Bard is Spell Knowledge. A rule that they get bonus Known Spells per level for their Int bonus would work. (i.e. 14 INT= +2 so +2 spells known per level.) Like any character it all depends on how you make it. You want a big bruiser bard? fine: Human Bard 10 43 hp St: 18 Con: 15 Chr: 15 Int:13 Wis:13 Dex 13 Feats: Endurance, Power Attack 1st, Weapon Focus 3rd, Great Fortitude 6th, Diehard 9th Skills: Balance (9 ranks) Bluff (9 ranks) Climb (9 ranks) Gather Information (9 ranks) Hide (9 ranks) Listen (9 ranks) Move Silently (9 ranks) Perform (10 ranks) Sense Motive (9 ranks) Use Magic Device (9 ranks)