Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Simo 01-11-04, 10:33 AM	Why do they makes bards essentially a poor fighter/rogue/wizard? Why not remove a lot of their abilities and beef up their magical musical abilities, so that they become a must in larger parties as they can make 5+ other guys a lot tougher, they could become as necessary as a cleric. In fact why don't we just make a core class like this, hmm not sure this post should be in general but ah well! Comments? Suggestions? Flames?
The_Fan 01-11-04, 10:53 AM	Because bards are the ultimate "5th party member," as well as the ultimate solo adventurer. The theory is that every party needs a wizard, a rogue, a priest, and a fighter. A bard isn't as good a fighter as the fighter, as good a caster as the wizard, as good a sneam as the rogue, or as good a healer as the priest. What he excells at is synergy. In a party with all it's bases covered, he can use his abilities to help any of the other classes perform their role better. Also, conversely, he is the ultimate solo hero. He doesn't need a healer, he has most of the skills he'll ever need, he has decent saves so he can get by most things, he has spells when necessary and can use magic device when he doesn't have a spell, etc. Basically, if you are going to go it alone, choose a bard. If you're joining a party with all their bases covered, choose a bard.
Simo 01-11-04, 12:26 PM	hmm i think its equally possible that the bard could end up being useless as none of his functions are ever needed very much!
The_Fan 01-11-04, 12:35 PM	Then don't overlap. Bards have a lot of options that don't overlap with other classes, and in fact help them out. The inspire abilities can help out any class, but do a lot of good helping fighters. Fascinate the guards while the rogue sneaks by. It's what the spell is for. If your wizard is in to big flashy fireballs and the like, be the subtle enchanter who controls the enemies and turns them against each other. Etc.
WizO_Catoblepas 01-11-04, 12:42 PM	Moved to Classes board.
BlaineTog 01-11-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by Simo Why do they makes bards essentially a poor fighter/rogue/wizard? A) Fighter/rogue/sorcerer/cleric. B) Not "Poor." Average, mabye, but not poor. The bard can get along in any of those rolls w/o too much difficulty, although a melee bard can't touch a melee fighter, a Healer bard can't touch a good Cleric, a blaster bard (is there such a thing?) can't touch a blaster sorcerer, and it certainly can't touch the rogue for dungeoneering skills. However: C) Bards make excellent Bards. They have their own niche to fill: support character (Inspire courage, most of their spells, backup fighter) and diplomat. No other class can realistically match a bard for the social skills involved (clarification: a Dedicated Social Rogue could do it, but it would require sacrificing some of the rogue's roghe-ish skills. Plus they wpuld need a high Cha, which is generally one one of the rogue's dump stats). Why not remove a lot of their abilities and beef up their magical musical abilities, so that they become a must in larger parties as they can make 5+ other guys a lot tougher, they could become as necessary as a cleric. With Inspire Courage, they can already make even fewer/more of their friends toucher (especially with Words of Creation, BoED). I wouldn't mind having more musical abilities, but to be honest: there's nothing that I could bear parting with. Well, I'd spends a feat to get another music, or mabye Bards could write (read: research) one for X number of gp, XP, and time. In fact why don't we just make a core class like this, hmm not sure this post should be in general but ah well! A class that went 100% music would be an awesome support character, but a bad backup character, and it would probably be boring. It's the kind of character that you'de want with the party, mabye as an NPC, but few people would want to play one.
Sir Ferdinand 01-11-04, 02:02 PM	They already are a must in 5 group parties, but they're very good in smaller parties as well. They have lots of boost abilities and spells, and on top of that they also have their fighting skills. Why make them even more powerful?
Simo 01-11-04, 02:05 PM	i think a social/support bard would be great fun to play from a RP stance, although not ever killing anything could drive off some people. Perhaps a PrC that specialised in musical support would be more appropriate?
Sir Ferdinand 01-11-04, 02:11 PM	i think a social/support bard would be great fun to play from a RP stance, although not ever killing anything could drive off some people. Why do you (in general) always assume that support character can never fight? My Bards are mainly support characters, but I still have about 1/3 amount of kills of our party's Barbarian (in our current game).
BlaineTog 01-11-04, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by Simo i think a social/support bard would be great fun to play from a RP stance, although not ever killing anything could drive off some people. Not ever killing anything? Well, my bard may not be the most heavy damage-dealer, but he's taken down some baddies b4. Perhaps a PrC that specialised in musical support would be more appropriate? [/B] Song and silence has the Virtuoso PrC which is sorta like this, although the Viruoso performances that it gets arn't worth the drop to 1/2 BaB, the loss of Reflex as a good save, fewer skill points (although thatwas probably just bcuz it's 3e), and loss of bardic Knoweldge. To Troubadour of Stars (BoED) gets some pretty sweet bardic music uses, but sadly only have 1/2 caster [rpgression (and require the bard to be Exalted).
Kaya Kenobi 01-11-04, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by Simo Why do they makes bards essentially a poor fighter/rogue/wizard? Here's my theory: Rogue skills vs bard skills Hide vs. Invisibility Open Lock vs. Gaseous Form Move Silently vs. Silence targeted on feet Bluff vs. Glibness Intimidate vs. Emotion or Fear Diplomacy vs. Charm Person or Emotion Jump vs. Fly or Gaseous Form Climb vs. Fly or Gaseous Form And for every other skill, the bard can duplicate it with a spell. Language a problem? The bard's class skill is Speak Language, the only one with the skill to learn languages at the rate of 1 point per language. What about fighting? Can a wizard fight as well as a fighter? Never.. A bard can fight better than a wizard though. And that's all the better considering the spell selection a bard can get. Can a Fighter make someone stand still? A bard can cast Hold Person then run them through with their decent BAB. Why not remove a lot of their abilities and beef up their magical musical abilities, so that they become a must in larger parties as they can make 5+ other guys a lot tougher, they could become as necessary as a cleric. My bard I made does just this with 2 bardic performances a level, except for one sad thing, without magic the bard faces a problem of not getting their full potential.
Daybreaker 01-11-04, 09:49 PM	Just for the record ... I suspect that a 4th-level Bard is probably tougher than a 1st-level Fighter, 1st-level Sorcerer, 1st-level Rogue, 1st-level Cleric. :)
LoricDAHPaladin 01-11-04, 11:33 PM	I so desperately want to write something against bards...but you people are not compelling me. Go on! Git ta work! I want to embroil you in a vehement debate about the evils of bard...err...hood...yeah, Bardhood! What is Joat?
BlaineTog 01-11-04, 11:47 PM	I, too, am wonderingabout the mysteries of this "joat". I assume it means "Crappy stupid underpowered class" in Draconic (going by context)...
ElFenrir 01-12-04, 12:07 AM	I really never saw a problem with the bard. Average BAB progression, enough to support when necessary. Good weapon selection, can carry a good melee weapon and a good missile weapon. A 3rd level bard with say, a 14 Str has a +4 attack bonus. Pretty darn good, I'd say. Plus they have good armor selection, and light armor doesn't even hinder their spells. Spell wise, sure they aren't blasters, but with healing ability and the subtle charming and illusions, they can be mighty helpful when the other casters start running low. Tons of skills, sure, they don't have ALL the rogue's abilities but they have enough to help! If the rogue can't do something, the bard can at least give it a shot. And of course, their own bardic music, which can bolster an entire party nicely. I really don't see the huge underpowered aspect. I have played(and seen other play) very effective bards. You CAN tweak your bards...I had more of a caster bard at one point who did a lot of bluffing, charm spells, etc...very sneaky. I also had more of a "beefy" bard, with good scores in Str and Dex, who could fill the role of a fighter quite nicely wielding a longsword two-handed, after bolstering up the party. (the effects do usually last a few rounds after playing!)
JoAT 01-12-04, 12:23 AM	Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin I so desperately want to write something against bards...but you people are not compelling me. Go on! Git ta work! I want to embroil you in a vehement debate about the evils of bard...err...hood...yeah, Bardhood! What is Joat? Originally posted by BlaineTog I, too, am wonderingabout the mysteries of this "joat". I assume it means "Crappy stupid underpowered class" in Draconic (going by context)... That would be me. :D JoAT is an acronym for Jack of All Trades, as in Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None. It's reservered for things (and characters) that can do just about anything, thus fullfilling several roles, but none of them as well as something specialized in that area. Which is the bard in nutshell. I, personally, don't have a problem with the bard. 3.0 bard was pretty bad, yes, but with 3.5, the bard seems to have improved much, and makes for a delightful 5th wheel, if you need one. Of course, a bard with a level of rogue and the feats Nymph's Kiss and Cosmopolitan can also make a good 4th wheel, too, if not as good at it's specialty as a rogue would. A bard could also make an okay fighter, if she leans towards the combat side of things, not a bad mage at all, a fair healing, ect, ect. This tends to result in the view of the bard as being underpowered, as it's not really able to keep up with any of these in their various specialties, but that's somewhat the point - the bard specilizes in versatility, and none of the other classes can catch up to the bard in that, which is a good thing, of course. And luckily for the bard, taking a level in another class is always an option, and one that pays off fairly well - one level in another class, while it will delay spell progression (and music progression as well), can grant further versitility, if it' in the right class - a level in fighter, ranger, or barbarian will grant full martial weapons supremacy, as well as some useful class abilities and hit points, and a level in rogue can grant some the useful trapfinding ability, and slightly increase the skill points. Either way, it makes the class even more versitile, able to step in and fill several roles when needed. And then, there's bardic music and bardic information, which mean that you'll almost never have a social problem, and you'll have a hard time finding an important thing which you don't know... In short, the bard makes a wonderful class - not too much of anything but more than alittle of everything.
Kaya Kenobi 01-12-04, 02:50 AM	What's Nymph's Kiss and where can it be found? Also, I totally agree about the JoaT-MoN idea. That is, the bard.
JoAT 01-12-04, 04:08 AM	Oh, it's a nifty little feat found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Basicly, you are (aparently) intimate with a fey creature, and thus gain +1 skill point a level, and a few other bonuses. It helps somewhat to close the really small skill point gap between the bard and the rogue... Though why sleeping with a nymph makes someone more skillful, I can't imagine... or, well, I can, but then you'd have to put those skill points into some really interesting skills....
CaoSlayer 01-12-04, 05:51 AM	ummm, the justification (or ridiculousness) of the feat have this own thread in the BoED board. --- ummm, the bard it is a joat because it is able to do anything if needed (and prepared, your bard with 8 con and no buffers isnt going to be a good melee warrior and your half-orc bard with cha 14 and all combat feats a good caster), he is the ace in the group. by example, there are those bards able to activate an ancient artifact which activation word it is too lost in time. (UMD) and those bards who can fascinate or bluff a full blooded dragon allowing the rest of the party to scape. (fascinate or glibness) and those bards who cast a good dispell magic to the dominated friend while the party´s sorcerer it is blasting the BBEG. (spontaneus casting) and those ones who can get the shape of a goblin and join a tribe of them to find out what are they cooking. (diguise-alter self, speak laguage-tongues). and finally those bards in the second line who can prevent the evil foes to reach the party´s sorcerer a couple of rounds(competence with light armor and shields).
Nytmare 01-12-04, 07:42 AM	How come no one has mentioned the complete butt-kicking-ness of Bardic Knowledge?
Sir Ferdinand 01-12-04, 09:04 AM	How come no one has mentioned the complete butt-kicking-ness of Bardic Knowledge? We haven't had enough anti-Bards here. Adding Bardic Knowledge to the discussion would've made it too easy to prove why Bards are so good ;)
CaoSlayer 01-12-04, 09:07 AM	Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand We haven't had enough anti-Bards here. Adding Bardic Knowledge to the discussion would've made it too easy to prove why Bards are so good ;) oh yeah... The only one bad thing about BK it is that you must be a pure bard for keeping it... *CaoSlayer raises a sign* "PRCs WITH BARDIC KNOWLEDGE NOW!"
Sir Ferdinand 01-12-04, 09:13 AM	oh yeah... The only one bad thing about BK it is that you must be a pure bard for keeping it... *CaoSlayer raises a sign* "PRCs WITH BARDIC KNOWLEDGE NOW!" I'm glad I don't multiclass my characters... ever. Though if you want to improve BK while multiclassing (though these are useful for single class as well), you have two options. Spend 5 ranks to Knowledge (history) (gives +2 to BK), or take a feat Obscure Lore from Song and Silence (gives +3 to BK).
CaoSlayer 01-12-04, 10:14 AM	yep, also there is a magic headband in magic of faerun that gives +4 BK bonus to bards
Sir Ferdinand 01-12-04, 10:30 AM	yep, also there is a magic headband in magic of faerun that gives +4 BK bonus to bards Ah, I had forgot that totally. I've been wondering how I could improve my current Bard's BK (as he has pretty low Int for a Bard). How much did it cost again?
CaoSlayer 01-12-04, 10:42 AM	2,400-2,700 one of those two prices. very cheap.
Sir Ferdinand 01-12-04, 10:49 AM	2,400-2,700 one of those two prices. very cheap. That's great. With couple of more adventures, I should have that much money. I just bought +1 enchantment to my Mithral Chainshirt, so I gotta collect some money again...
Kaya Kenobi 01-12-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand Ah, I had forgot that totally. I've been wondering how I could improve my current Bard's BK (as he has pretty low Int for a Bard). How much did it cost again? Isn't there a feat that adds to BK? You really should check out Sword and Sorcery's answer to make the bard even better. Very well balanced, and it even has some bard specific feats and spells.
BlaineTog 01-12-04, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer yep, also there is a magic headband in magic of faerun that gives +4 BK bonus to bards AND lets 'em read magic thrice per day, which is really nifty (why oh why arn't there bonus cantrips for high Cha?). Here's my Bard's BK: 13 (Level) + 3 (Intelligence) + 2 (have 5 ranks in Knowledge: History) + 3 (Obscure Lore feat in Songand Silence) + 4 (Heandband of the Binder, that one CaoSlayer mentioned) = +25. :D I automatically know all "Obscure" Bardic knoweldge, and only have to roll a 5 to get Extremnely Obscure. So I have something likea 75% chance to know every old wizard's childhood nickname. Bwa ha ha. :devil:
Kaya Kenobi 01-13-04, 07:24 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog AND lets 'em read magic thrice per day, which is really nifty (why oh why arn't there bonus cantrips for high Cha?). Here's my Bard's BK: 13 (Level) + 3 (Intelligence) + 2 (have 5 ranks in Knowledge: History) + 3 (Obscure Lore feat in Songand Silence) + 4 (Heandband of the Binder, that one CaoSlayer mentioned) = +25. :D I automatically know all "Obscure" Bardic knoweldge, and only have to roll a 5 to get Extremnely Obscure. So I have something likea 75% chance to know every old wizard's childhood nickname. Bwa ha ha. :devil: And then I houserule it's DC 35 + whatever I want to say.
BlaineTog 01-13-04, 10:34 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi And then I houserule it's DC 35 + whatever I want to say. NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!;) Seriously though, that number has some serious RP background. 6 pages worth, to be exact...
Kaya Kenobi 01-14-04, 02:48 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!;) Seriously though, that number has some serious RP background. 6 pages worth, to be exact... I screwed with BK because I felt it was just too good at the current level of DCs (too low) and it seems like it's more balanced now.. A 20th level bard with a 25+ to a BK check is extremely good, and a 30+ is just sick..
The Messenger 01-14-04, 07:41 AM	Man, Bards is the Ultimate support character IMO. Let's take a 30th level bard and he has like 5 of his/her buddy that is also 30th level. And according to the epic level material that was updated to 3.5, here's the link to check it out: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a Here's the breakdown on feats according to a 30th level bard: general feats: 7 epic feats: 7 General Feat: Extra Music (dump at least 1 feat into it), and i'd suggest my personal favorite from the Book of Exalted Deeds: Word of Creation. Epic Feat: Lasting Inpiration (5 rounds x10 for lingering effects), Inspire Excellence (add +4 competence bonus to one (1) physical or mental stat), Epic Inspiration (sink all 5 feat into this puppy here and almost guaranteed that your DM/GM will ban you from ever using a bard). Here's the Moneyshot boi's and gurlies: Inspire Courage: +4x2+5= +13 to hit/dmg morale bonus (using word of creation and epic inspiration) duration of lingering effect: 50 rounds Inspire Greatness: +2d10x2+5d10= 9d10+con mod in temporary hp / +2x2+5= +9 competence bonus to hit / +1x2+5= +7 competence bonus to fortitude saves (using word of creation and epic inspiration) duration of lingering effect: 50 rounds Inspire Heriocs: +4x2+5= +13 morale bonus to saving throws / +4x2+5= +13 dodge bonus to AC (using word of creation and epic inspiration) duration of lingering effect: 50 rounds Inspire Excellence: +4x2+5= +13 competence bonus to any one physical or mental stat per song, for all intents and purposes i'll say it's to str for this example (using word of creation and epic inspiration) duration of lingering effect: 50 rounds Now imagine that once the bard has sung all 4 songs for maximum effect, this will be the breakdown: +28 to hit / +19 to dmg, +20 fort save/+13 ref save/+13 will save, +9d10+players con mod in temp hp, +13 to AC Now imagine that the other 5 players were rangers with of course perfect 2 wpn fight, lmao this will get very sick in terms of dmg wise. We're looking at a good possibility of 5 players x8 swings with perfect two wpn fighting = 40 swings (this can amount to 760 extra dmg each round). Bards are by no means = Teh Sux EDIT: I forgot to mention if you use Word of Creation, you will take +3d4 (inspire courage), +12d4 (inspire greatness), +15d4 (inspire heroics) and +30d4 (inspire excellence) in non lethal damage = +60d4 non lethal dmg (a very high possiblity of knocking yourself out).
CaoSlayer 01-14-04, 09:30 AM	he, very curious, althrought I usually dont like the book of ridiculous levels... another note in RL (Ridiculous Levels) it is that if you get the feat of epic spellcasting 3 times, you will be able to cast epic spells.
The Messenger 01-14-04, 10:37 AM	Cao, i think i'm gonna forgive ya for not knowing or comprehending the english language. Epic Spellcasting, you can only purchase it once and then the said player has to research the spells prior to receiving said "Uber" spell.
CaoSlayer 01-14-04, 12:34 PM	I dont have the RLH, only have saw it in my master´s house, so I dont know the minor part of some feats, I remember a conversation about how with Epic spellcasting a level 23 bard was able to use epic spellcasting. (I throught that the feat gave 1 extra spell slot higher that any other available, explaining why guys like elmister have level 13 slots) :D ummm, of course would have to research them, but that it is alike wizards and sorcerers and since spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) are both bard´s class skills I dont see any trouble with bards having epic spells.
Kaya Kenobi 01-14-04, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by The Messenger Cao, i think i'm gonna forgive ya for not knowing or comprehending the english language. Epic Spellcasting, you can only purchase it once and then the said player has to research the spells prior to receiving said "Uber" spell. Only epic spells worth casting are the ultimate ones that may never see play.. DC 500 to learn?
BlaineTog 01-14-04, 07:13 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi Only epic spells worth casting are the ultimate ones that may never see play.. DC 500 to learn? 500? Well, I don't know if if an Epic Bard could make then b4 the double-digits, but here goes: Level 40 Bard Int (+5), Ranks (+43), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (+3), Magical Aptitude (+2), Knight og Stars (+1), Inspire Competence (+2), Ioun Stone of MakingSpellcraftHigher (+10) = 66. But there's more. There's a spell in S&S that (for a 30th level bard) would let him/her add 80 points to any combination of rolls over the course of 40 rounds after casting. +146. So a bard could learn a 500 DC spell w/o fail at... level 158.
Kaya Kenobi 01-15-04, 06:47 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog 500? Well, I don't know if if an Epic Bard could make then b4 the double-digits, but here goes: Level 40 Bard Int (+5), Ranks (+43), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (+3), Magical Aptitude (+2), Knight og Stars (+1), Inspire Competence (+2), Ioun Stone of MakingSpellcraftHigher (+10) = 66. But there's more. There's a spell in S&S that (for a 30th level bard) would let him/her add 80 points to any combination of rolls over the course of 40 rounds after casting. +146. So a bard could learn a 500 DC spell w/o fail at... level 158. heh... That seems like a long time from now.. My bard's only 17th level..
Lael 01-15-04, 11:29 PM	Mine's only 9th :angel:
LoricDAHPaladin 01-15-04, 11:55 PM	Originally signatured by CaoSlayer Caoslayer, butchering english language since 6/9/2001 Hmm, as a native speaker, it has been my experience that the English language is already butchered. Anything you do would only be an improvement.
CaoSlayer 01-16-04, 04:21 AM	Originally posted by LoricDAHPaladin Hmm, as a native speaker, it has been my experience that the English language is already butchered. Anything you do would only be an improvement. he he he, as a foreign speaker I can say that the english language it is too easy to butch... have a sintatic structure too rigid
Sir Ferdinand 01-16-04, 08:22 AM	By Kaya Kenobi: Isn't there a feat that adds to BK? You really should check out Sword and Sorcery's answer to make the bard even better. Very well balanced, and it even has some bard specific feats and spells. Yes there is. In Song And Silence there's a feat called Oscure Lore, but the problem is that I'm not at suitable level to take a feat. I'd have to wait for 2 more levels until next feat, so currently a magical item would be an easy solution.