bards with no magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

bards with no magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
andrewknaut
09-03-06, 05:19 AM i was wondering if their is a varient of a bard without spells...i know this is a bit strange, but i want to play a non magical character expert yet i dont like rouge...
also is their a feat that lets you make a cross class skill a class skill...for some reason rouges dont have knolidge nobility and i really want it.
Thanks for the help.
Izodor_Shadowcaster
09-03-06, 05:40 AM What is left of the bard without magic?
andrewknaut
09-03-06, 05:55 AM What is left of the bard without magic?

good skills, bardic music, and good weapon profinceys
Izodor_Shadowcaster
09-03-06, 06:09 AM good skills, bardic music, and good weapon profinceys

I thought bardic music was magical.
scienceman47
09-03-06, 07:12 AM The bard's flavor is magical in nature. Its like asking to play a wizard with no spells. Its very nature requires that you be able to cast a weak smattering of arcane and divine spells.

Rogue with perform is the closest you can get. Maybe marshal. Rogue fighter?
Artector
09-03-06, 10:41 AM depends on how much of the actual bard-iness you want. Remove the spells and add a bonus feat or 2 and that'd work.

If you want to focus on the music aspect I'd suggest looking in CA at the Seeker of The Song Prc, they look for the 'primal' song. Basically it tricks out their bardic music, at the expense of spellcasting.
a_m0ogle
09-03-06, 10:52 AM http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3730/bardfv5.jpg

The Dark Sun Bard, from the free pdf at Athas.org

Tis really a much better designed bard than the phb one. Its more of the 'jack of all trades' bard, plus the bardic music. Its quite balanced, unlike the phb bard.
backyrat
09-05-06, 12:45 AM Yeah, the Athasian bard is a lot of fun, and makes you realize how much of the bard's utility is wrapped up in music. Plus, who can go wrong with poison?
CaoSlayer
09-05-06, 04:30 AM I always have said that the best way to do a bard would to "unite" bardic music and bard spellcasting because it is the same thing actually.

My favorite way to do it would to create an "invocation" bard where the bard uses invocation in place of bardic music or spells and threat them as "songs".
Shadowfax7
09-05-06, 09:57 PM IMC I use a variant spell-less Bard which gains a bonus feat @ 4th level and 1 add'l bonus feat every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th).

These bonus feats can be chosen from any general feat.

It makes for a very diverse skilled Bard class which can be geared towards a fighting Bard, rogueish Bard, expert Bard, etc., depending on what bonus feats are chosen.
Grey_Mage
09-05-06, 11:33 PM i was wondering if their is a varient of a bard without spells...i know this is a bit strange, but i want to play a non magical character expert yet i dont like rouge...
also is their a feat that lets you make a cross class skill a class skill...for some reason rouges dont have knolidge nobility and i really want it.
Thanks for the help.
The Feat "Highborn" I beileve gives you that skill and some other benefits to boot.
CaoSlayer
09-06-06, 05:21 AM IMC I use a variant spell-less Bard which gains a bonus feat @ 4th level and 1 add'l bonus feat every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th).

These bonus feats can be chosen from any general feat.

It makes for a very diverse skilled Bard class which can be geared towards a fighting Bard, rogueish Bard, expert Bard, etc., depending on what bonus feats are chosen.

Je.. pretty pathetic exchange IMO..

ask people what they want better, 10 feats or full level spellcasting with six levels of spells.

Seriously the bard spellcasting it is worth a lot, ever more powerful and useful than sneak attack and can be used to complement any kind of bard, you can replace whole skills with one spell and some spells can boost you combat power a lot of.

A good standard exchange for the spellcasting it is to give the bard good bab and a d8 for hp, this is based on the warchanter prestige classe.
Another way use to grant the bard more songs from prc or feats and double this number of bardic music uses per day, this is based on the bardic music prc like seeker of the song or the virtuoso.
Shadowfax7
09-06-06, 07:54 PM ask people what they want better, 10 feats or full level spellcasting with six levels of spells.It's actually 13 feats (14 if Human) pre-epic.

However, your opinion is valid. I am still playtesting this variant IMC. The versatility of the add'l feats w/o limitation on choice (all general feats is no limitation since metamagic/item creation feats would be useless to a spell-less Bard) is very appealing to some players that want a skill and feat monkey w/bardic Music Ability.

Also, there are many Bardic Music Ability enhancing feats out there to increase the Bard's magical power in that department.

Seriously the bard spellcasting it is worth a lot, ever more powerful and useful than sneak attack and can be used to complement any kind of bard, you can replace whole skills with one spell and some spells can boost you combat power a lot of.

A good standard exchange for the spellcasting it is to give the bard good bab and a d8 for hp, this is based on the warchanter prestige classe.
Another way use to grant the bard more songs from prc or feats and double this number of bardic music uses per day, this is based on the bardic music prc like seeker of the song or the virtuoso.There I am of the opinion that the Bard's spell-casting is mediocre, at best. Also, the Bard's spell-list is not a powerful arcane spell list.

However, I have been wanting to add something more to this variant to make it more balanced . . . good BAB, d8 HD, are good choices, but I am not sure I want to go in that direction.

I am not against allowing PrC Music Abilities as Bardic Music Ability feat choices.

As far as number of Bardic Music Ability uses/day, I have always felt that 1/level is good. There are feats to enhance this as well.
alchemyprime
09-06-06, 10:04 PM For the Knowledge (Nobility) thing, I think there is a feat called educated.
It gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills, you can you them untrained, and if you have any ranks at all in a Knowledge skill, that particular skill gets a +1 misc. bonus.

I used it with a Barbarian NPC once. He'd rattle off facts and read his books all day. Until he'd rage, of course.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andrewknaut 09-03-06, 05:19 AM	i was wondering if their is a varient of a bard without spells...i know this is a bit strange, but i want to play a non magical character expert yet i dont like rouge... also is their a feat that lets you make a cross class skill a class skill...for some reason rouges dont have knolidge nobility and i really want it. Thanks for the help.
Izodor_Shadowcaster 09-03-06, 05:40 AM	What is left of the bard without magic?
andrewknaut 09-03-06, 05:55 AM	What is left of the bard without magic? good skills, bardic music, and good weapon profinceys
Izodor_Shadowcaster 09-03-06, 06:09 AM	good skills, bardic music, and good weapon profinceys I thought bardic music was magical.
scienceman47 09-03-06, 07:12 AM	The bard's flavor is magical in nature. Its like asking to play a wizard with no spells. Its very nature requires that you be able to cast a weak smattering of arcane and divine spells. Rogue with perform is the closest you can get. Maybe marshal. Rogue fighter?
Artector 09-03-06, 10:41 AM	depends on how much of the actual bard-iness you want. Remove the spells and add a bonus feat or 2 and that'd work. If you want to focus on the music aspect I'd suggest looking in CA at the Seeker of The Song Prc, they look for the 'primal' song. Basically it tricks out their bardic music, at the expense of spellcasting.
a_m0ogle 09-03-06, 10:52 AM	http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3730/bardfv5.jpg The Dark Sun Bard, from the free pdf at Athas.org Tis really a much better designed bard than the phb one. Its more of the 'jack of all trades' bard, plus the bardic music. Its quite balanced, unlike the phb bard.
backyrat 09-05-06, 12:45 AM	Yeah, the Athasian bard is a lot of fun, and makes you realize how much of the bard's utility is wrapped up in music. Plus, who can go wrong with poison?
CaoSlayer 09-05-06, 04:30 AM	I always have said that the best way to do a bard would to "unite" bardic music and bard spellcasting because it is the same thing actually. My favorite way to do it would to create an "invocation" bard where the bard uses invocation in place of bardic music or spells and threat them as "songs".
Shadowfax7 09-05-06, 09:57 PM	IMC I use a variant spell-less Bard which gains a bonus feat @ 4th level and 1 add'l bonus feat every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). These bonus feats can be chosen from any general feat. It makes for a very diverse skilled Bard class which can be geared towards a fighting Bard, rogueish Bard, expert Bard, etc., depending on what bonus feats are chosen.
Grey_Mage 09-05-06, 11:33 PM	i was wondering if their is a varient of a bard without spells...i know this is a bit strange, but i want to play a non magical character expert yet i dont like rouge... also is their a feat that lets you make a cross class skill a class skill...for some reason rouges dont have knolidge nobility and i really want it. Thanks for the help. The Feat "Highborn" I beileve gives you that skill and some other benefits to boot.
CaoSlayer 09-06-06, 05:21 AM	IMC I use a variant spell-less Bard which gains a bonus feat @ 4th level and 1 add'l bonus feat every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). These bonus feats can be chosen from any general feat. It makes for a very diverse skilled Bard class which can be geared towards a fighting Bard, rogueish Bard, expert Bard, etc., depending on what bonus feats are chosen. Je.. pretty pathetic exchange IMO.. ask people what they want better, 10 feats or full level spellcasting with six levels of spells. Seriously the bard spellcasting it is worth a lot, ever more powerful and useful than sneak attack and can be used to complement any kind of bard, you can replace whole skills with one spell and some spells can boost you combat power a lot of. A good standard exchange for the spellcasting it is to give the bard good bab and a d8 for hp, this is based on the warchanter prestige classe. Another way use to grant the bard more songs from prc or feats and double this number of bardic music uses per day, this is based on the bardic music prc like seeker of the song or the virtuoso.
Shadowfax7 09-06-06, 07:54 PM	ask people what they want better, 10 feats or full level spellcasting with six levels of spells.It's actually 13 feats (14 if Human) pre-epic. However, your opinion is valid. I am still playtesting this variant IMC. The versatility of the add'l feats w/o limitation on choice (all general feats is no limitation since metamagic/item creation feats would be useless to a spell-less Bard) is very appealing to some players that want a skill and feat monkey w/bardic Music Ability. Also, there are many Bardic Music Ability enhancing feats out there to increase the Bard's magical power in that department. Seriously the bard spellcasting it is worth a lot, ever more powerful and useful than sneak attack and can be used to complement any kind of bard, you can replace whole skills with one spell and some spells can boost you combat power a lot of. A good standard exchange for the spellcasting it is to give the bard good bab and a d8 for hp, this is based on the warchanter prestige classe. Another way use to grant the bard more songs from prc or feats and double this number of bardic music uses per day, this is based on the bardic music prc like seeker of the song or the virtuoso.There I am of the opinion that the Bard's spell-casting is mediocre, at best. Also, the Bard's spell-list is not a powerful arcane spell list. However, I have been wanting to add something more to this variant to make it more balanced . . . good BAB, d8 HD, are good choices, but I am not sure I want to go in that direction. I am not against allowing PrC Music Abilities as Bardic Music Ability feat choices. As far as number of Bardic Music Ability uses/day, I have always felt that 1/level is good. There are feats to enhance this as well.
alchemyprime 09-06-06, 10:04 PM	For the Knowledge (Nobility) thing, I think there is a feat called educated. It gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills, you can you them untrained, and if you have any ranks at all in a Knowledge skill, that particular skill gets a +1 misc. bonus. I used it with a Barbarian NPC once. He'd rattle off facts and read his books all day. Until he'd rage, of course.