Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DemonDragonJ 11-28-05, 08:36 AM	I have seen multiple threads on thse boards where people say that bards are weak and underpowered. I am not certain if I share this opinion, but I have two questions to ask about the subject, which will undoubtedly spark a huge debate. 1. why and how are bards weak? 2. what can be done to make them more powerful and/or balanced? Any feedback will be much appreciated.
Mandarbgrim 11-28-05, 08:48 AM	I believe they are considered weak because the only thing they excel at is in social areas of the game. This seems to be frequently deemed unimportant in the game. I don't really think they are weak, they just lack focus. They are powerful enough and balanced to me. They just might take more skill to play, and should only be played in games were their strengths can actually be utilized.
CaoSlayer 11-28-05, 09:18 AM	they are usually told as weak by: 1š people who havent ever readed the bardīs spell-list. 2š people who played with one who didnt knew how to fight as a bard. 3š people who believe that a cleric it is way better in everything. A bard it is a very versatile character because unlike a wizard dont sucks in close combat, unlike a rogue can cast spells and unlike a fighter it is way more skilled.
Josh C 11-28-05, 10:43 AM	Bards are not weak. But they are probably best played as support characters. Bardic music provides some great buffs. Probably the best is inspire courage, it affects the whole party and lasts as long as you perform, +5 levels. AFter the first round you can do other things, but not cast spells or use spell completion/trigger items. Throw in Song of the Heart a feat from Eberron and its even better. At higher levels fascinate with suggestion/mass suggestion is really good too. The bard has a pretty good spell list and he is a full caster. For example: Grease (great spell) Invisibility mirror image displacement dispel and greater dispel magic (works just as well for a bard as a wizard or cleric) cure Xwounds silence (cast it on the monk/rogue/fighter/barbarian and let them fight the enemy spell casters) Ottos irrestable dance etc. Great skill list and enough skill points to put it to good use. A bard can fight his way out of a paper bag. Infact they're not too bad, especially if they've buffed up a bit. Take an 8th level bard: Inspire courage (+3 to hit and damage with Song of the Heart and the whole party gets it too) Alter self (trog for +6 NA) Attack bonus +9/+4 (without including bonuses from high ability scores or magic items) AC 10 + 4 (chain shirt) + 2 shield + 6 natural armor = 22 (+ dex and magic enhancements) You also have the option of casting haste. This means it'll be a while before you're in combat, but giving the party +4 to hit, +3 damage, +1 AC, +1 to ref saves, extra movement and an extra attack on a full attack is pretty good. Plus since you can scout while invisible there's a good chance you can cast haste before the fight begins, it'll last 8 rounds, which is probably longer than the fight. Sure their HP are kinda low and they probably don't have a wealth of combat feats, but they can be very hard to hit and their ability to hit their opponent is pretty good. Look at it this way: Bards can socialize, fight with weapons, sneak, two good saves, some great party buffs and situationally useful party defense abilities, a situationally useful heightened suggestion useable mutiple times per day and they're pretty effective casters. Given all those abilities they are really pretty good regardless of if you're in a small group ad need someone to cover several bases or in a large group where bardic music is incredibly useful.
Thorak 11-28-05, 10:45 AM	People who think the Bard is weak can't see power in anything other than big damage numbers. The Bard is, hands down, the absolute best character for mind control. And an enemy who's doing the Bard's bidding is an encounter the PCs defeated without having to get hurt. Is mind control unstoppable? By no means. But everything has workarounds; even the Barbarian's massive melee damage does little good against an enemy 500' away, lobbing Fireballs and such. The Bard, in addition to this area of mastery, also does competitively well at spell damage and combat. Not as good as dedicated types, but with his buffs, his combat ability is on par with a Rogue or Monk's. His skills are among the best in the game. He's also about the best party buffer in the game, thanks to Bardic Music. All in all, it's a strong support class, with a great deal of subtlety. Those who think it weak are those who don't see the benefit of support, and don't comprehend subtlety. Getting the nasty dragon to go fly south for three days straight gives you a good, solid period of time to loot his hoard hassle-free, and a Bard actually has a decent chance of getting this to work. Pretty much no other class has more than a remote chance. That's power, even if it's too subtle for some people to recognize it.
Keenath 11-28-05, 11:13 AM	Bards often simply don't fit in a standard 4-person party with the cannonical roles -- warrior, wizard, thief, and priest. If you take that group and replace any one member with a bard, the party won't work as well. Thus, many people reflexively think the bard is weak. Now, it's becoming more and more common to see non-standard parties, and depending on the group, bards can work there. But where a bard really shines is a small group or a large group. If you have three or fewer characters, a bard's jack-of-all-trades ability pops up to great effect. He's got interpersonal skills, minor thiefy-skills, numchuck skills... Oh, sorry, got distracted. He can cast, he can buff, he can fight, and all while wearing armor. A Bard in a small party can decently cover two or three roles. In a large party, it's the opposite issue -- you probably already have somebody who specializes in all the standard roles, and depending on the group size, at least some are probably doubling up (such as fighter and barbarian or wizard and sorcerer). So, in a group like that, a bard can be a real asset by providing unusual abilities. The bardic music is a great boost for everyone, particularly when it's a nice area of effect that inspires the entire party. Likewise, having lots of skill points and a huge list means that you can specialize in some odd skills that normally aren't needed, like various knowledge skills or appraise -- and you probably still have enough points laying around to throw some into your communication skills, which means the rest of the party can safely ignore Diplomacy and so on. Basically, a bard's weakness is the "jack of all trades, master of none" issue -- he isn't the best at anything, but he's decent at a lot of things. In a small party, you probably won't have an expert and "just decent" becomes a big asset. In a large party, experts abound, which tends to hide the bard's "jack" abilities in favor of his unique buffing.
Eyeless Blond 11-28-05, 11:45 AM	In other words, bards make a good second man in a 2-man party, but an insanely good 5th man in a large party. The other big reason the bard--as well as the ranger, for that matter--are sometimes considered weak, besides the excellent analysis above, is that they have no big ways to directly damage the enemy in a fight (Rangers have Favored Enemy, but that's highly situational). Fighters have lots of feats which open different options; barbarians have Rage; monks have unarmed strikes; rogues have sneak attack; other classes have big-hurt spells. The bard's combat abilities, ironically, are more subtle than the rogue's, which is why so many people overlook them. On the flip side, levels 9-11 are pretty much the peak of the bard's combat ability, so it's a bit of a fallacy to say that they are terriffic in melee just because of their performance at level 10. Those are the levels where Inspire Greatness--the most powerful combat-wise music on the bard's list--has its greatest effect, and he has access to nearly the best in-battle buffs available at that level. Before level 9 they don't have as many of those powerful abilities, and after 11-12 it's not nearly as proportionately powerful as some of the higher-level magics and combat feats, so it's really only in those levels that a bard can be an effective melee combatant.Before and after those levels the bard has to be content with the second lines, unless he's going for Warchanter.
Chimaera2000 11-28-05, 12:13 PM	A bard is certainly not a crippled or unplayable class, but it is primarily a support class. It's true that bards can make as much of a contribution to an adventuring party as any other class, but it's typically an indirect contribution. That's one reason they're "weak;" compared to other classes, they have less direct combat ability. It's possible to perceive that as weak, and even if it's not, it can be less fun as well. A house rule that we use in our games is letting the bard cast spells or use magical devices while using bardic music. That way, it emphasizes the bard's greatest strength: flexibility. If the bard is to be a support class, letting them have all of their options open to them helps them be fully on par with the other PHB classes (except, of course, the cleric and druid :rolleyes: ).
Josh C 11-28-05, 03:26 PM	Granted I'm including a feat from Eberron so it may not apply to your world, but a 20th level bard can grant everyone in his party a +5 to hit and +5 to damage and +5 to saves vs fear from inspire courage and a +3 to hit and damage and +3d10 temporary hp (+3Xcon bonus) from inspire greatness to a total of 4 individuals. That's a total of +8 to hit and damage, + 5 saves vs fear and +3d10 (+3Xcon bonus) temporary hp to four individuals and a +2 bonus to fort saves. He can also cast ottos irrestible dance, no save (but SR applies) at least 4 times per day. He can fascinate 6 creatures at a time with a will save DC that should easily average in the 40s then mass suggest them with a will save DC of > 26, probably > 30. His use magic device skill should be high enough that he can use almost any magic item with out chance of failure. Plus he still has access to a number of great skills and large number of skill points. Even at 20th level a bard is pretty capable in melee: AB 15(base) + 8 (bardic music) + 4 (should be able to get an 18 str or dex by then) + 3 (not hard to get a +3 weapon by then either, even if its from a scroll of greater magic weapon) = +30/25/20 to hit damage is 1d8 (long sword) + 3 (magic) + 8 (bardic music) + 4 (str) = 19.5 damage/hit AC 10 + 4 (chain shirt) + 5 (enhancement to chain shirt) + 2 (large shield) + 5 (enhancement to shield) + 6 (natural armor from alter self) + 5 (amulet of natural armor) + 5 (ring of protection) +2 (dex) = 44 hp 20d6 + 40 (should be able to get a 14 con by then) + 3d10 + 6 = 135 so a bard that is really not optimized for combat, but has put some resources towards it has Full attack: +30/25/20 damage:1d8 + 15 (longsword) AC 44 HP 135 Compared to an "average" 20th level fighter from the 3.0 DMG (granted its not optimized at all either and I don't list feats for him, but he has spent all his money to get here...) Full attack +33/28/23/18 Damage 2d6+14 AC 34 HP 175 Not a whole lot of difference, except while all the fighter can do is fight, fighting is only a small portion of the bard's capabilities. I'm not saying this bard could beat a fighter in a straight up fight, but he's not useless (when compared to a fighter, anyway). But his first action (in a fight against a powerful opponent) would probably be Ottos Irresistable Dance.
Bopple 11-28-05, 03:36 PM	As everyone else said, bard is far from weak. It's the best 5th man. And with Sublime Chord PrC, it also gained conventional type of power.
Sluagh 11-28-05, 03:57 PM	Man, I'm loving my current Bard character. He's certainly in no way underpowered with the rest of the group.
FabulousRex 11-28-05, 04:00 PM	I personally think that an archer-Bard is one of the more powerful versions of a Bard, as you can avoid alot of nasty melee combat and still provide mucho support. Don't also forget the great Bard-only spells like Glibness and Scuplt Sound. One of the more commonly overlooked aspects of the Bard definately has to be Bardic Knowledge. It's not enough to be able to sweet-talk your way out of (or into) any problem, but knowing all the most obscure knowledges wrapped up into one ability can be life saving. It's particularly good at ID'ing monsters, and remembering long-lost arcana and historical niceties. There is also alot of opportunity for great multiclassing and PrC'ing. Everything from the great Sublime Chord, to Arcane Duelist, Virtusoso, Warchanter, to non-standard PrCs like the Heir of Siberys. With a couple of smart feat and skill choices, you really can fill into almost any role you can think of.
Edymnion 11-28-05, 04:05 PM	Yes, bottom line is that the Bard isn't a direct damage dealer, which makes him seem weak and pointless to the munchkins. But for roleplaying aspects, and non-combat, he reigns supreme. Really depends on what kind of game you're in and how you play characters on if he's a weakling, or king of the hill.
Kiklio 11-28-05, 04:13 PM	More great spells: Heroism and Greater Heroism. Extend Spell is a feat worth taking as a bard. Plus, they even have a little bit of curing ability. They're frickin' Red Mages.
Sluagh 11-28-05, 04:57 PM	My character is a cross-classed Bard 4/Rogue 4, former member of a theives guild. He's been passing himself off as just a Bard with the group from the get-go and is a devotee of Mask. His bardic knowledge, skills, and charisma has had him as a primary social character as well as scout for the groups and he's excelled quite nicely. He's a ranged fighter, using magic items, he dual wields a whip and short sword or uses a short bow. He's yet to be anything close to a liability in combat and more than holds his own; generally taking the least damage in any given encounter. The minor buffs he offers really help the team... he really is an asset to the team, efen if he secretly is only looking out for himself and is manipulating the group for his own benefit :P
truepurple 11-28-05, 05:33 PM	Don't underestimate the value of a bards ability to collect information either. Very helpful in any adventure (except maybe the most die hard bang the door down, everythings set up in advance, you just need to win battles and move foreword... adventure)
tiercel 11-28-05, 08:10 PM	I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far, and wanted to offer an additional angle. In D&D fiction/webcomics/humor, the bard invariably is the one most often acting as the butt of jokes. Because the bard doesn't generally a single, obvious *combat* strength where he outshines everyone else, you tend to get a lot of "bards are useless" jokes. I've posted on this at some length elsewhere, but you can almost pick any piece of D&D humor or fiction, and if a bard is mentioned or appears, "useless" jokes appear almost instantly. Additionally, when a bard is allowed to do something successfully, most of the time this success comes in an accidental and/or humiliating fashion, and/or is followed up by a mistake or general stupidity that more than makes up for the success. (All in line with the "useless" line of humor.) [Yes, Order of the Stick, I'm including you here. OotS is a great D&D webcomic, and I laugh at Elan's antics as much as anyone, but I'd like him to have a *few* genuine moments now and then.] Now, D&D humor that pokes fun at things in D&D is fine, but bards tend to get more than their share of ridicule -- how many times have you seen an utterly useless fighter or wizard character (at least one that didn't grow from a callow youth to become Mighty and Determined by the end of the story)? A big problem for the perception of bards is that there isn't a prominent positive role model for them. Fighters and Wizards are archetypes of fantasy, with many prototypes to pick from. Monks can look to any number of kung-fu outlets, or someone who is more Friar Tuck to the party's Robin Hood. Thieves -- er -- rogues can look to any number of fantasy stories which deal with more underhanded, and/or more political topics... (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, anyone? Also, some of Raymond Feist's works.... or even David Eddings for that matter.) Barbarians, of course, can look to Conan. I could go on, but can you think of a major, well-known positive bardic archetype? Probably the best major example I could think of, though somewhat outside the fantasy milieu, is Captain Jack Sparrow. You could argue that he is a Charisma-based rogue rather than a bard, but I think there is a fair case to be made for bard as well. --Still, since it isn't a fantasy settting and Jack doesn't go around singing bardic spells, you can argue whether this counts as "major bardic archetype" when you can merely sort-of fit "bard" to a non-D&D character. I think, then, the major problem with bard is one of perception. With many negative stereotypes out there in D&D humor, with few if any positive archetypes, many D&D-ers mock the bard, or have had experiences with badly-played bard characters who ponce about fretting about the cleanliness of their extra-ruffled shirts and soft shoes and bursting into song at ridiculously inappropriate times. People who say "bards suck" because they are whiny or annoying have missed the point -- sure, a bard with a pathetic Charisma (or played as if they had one) will be sorely lacking, as will a Int 6 mage, as will a Wis 7 cleric, but you don't see either of those straw men being trotted out to argue that either of those classes "suck." In the end, the best thing we can do for bard as a class is to learn it, play it, and play it well. Once other players come to appreciate what your bard can do for their characters, as well as your bard "saving the day" by coming through in a pinch in any number of situations, and once more and more players have positive experiences like this, the popular perception of bards will begin to shift. We may even see more, and more archetypical, positive portrayal of bards in humor and fiction. So go play a bard :)
Mr. Sarcastic 11-28-05, 08:16 PM	Gleemen! Wandering Minstrels! The Pied Piper! Pan! Shakespeare (and indeed any thespian you care to name)! The Muses! Any band you care to name! Plenty of inspiration, if you know where to look.
Nephlite 11-28-05, 08:25 PM	A big problem for the perception of bards is that there isn't a prominent positive role model for them. Fighters and Wizards are archetypes of fantasy, with many prototypes to pick from. Monks can look to any number of kung-fu outlets, or someone who is more Friar Tuck to the party's Robin Hood. Thieves -- er -- rogues can look to any number of fantasy stories which deal with more underhanded, and/or more political topics... (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, anyone? Also, some of Raymond Feist's works.... or even David Eddings for that matter.) Barbarians, of course, can look to Conan. I could go on, but can you think of a major, well-known positive bardic archetype? Bard's Tale that game on playstation 2. Yeah that bard was awesome. Also Jack: that show that was on UPN (I think that was channel) with Brace Campbell (from Army of Darkness). I loved the parrot in the introductions, " Damn right." "It's just Jack!" Than parrot spoke. I am not sure if it was cancelled because they ran out of ideas or what. I loved that series. Probably the best major example I could think of, though somewhat outside the fantasy milieu, is Captain Jack Sparrow. You could argue that he is a Charisma-based rogue rather than a bard, but I think there is a fair case to be made for bard as well. --Still, since it isn't a fantasy settting and Jack doesn't go around singing bardic spells, you can argue whether this counts as "major bardic archetype" when you can merely sort-of fit "bard" to a non-D&D character. Yeah Jack was a good bard. I perfer thoughtsinging to bardic singing. I love my psionic Bards. I think, then, the major problem with bard is one of perception. With many negative stereotypes out there in D&D humor, with few if any positive archetypes, many D&D-ers mock the bard, or have had experiences with badly-played bard characters who ponce about fretting about the cleanliness of their extra-ruffled shirts and soft shoes and bursting into song at ridiculously inappropriate times. People who say "bards suck" because they are whiny or annoying have missed the point -- sure, a bard with a pathetic Charisma (or played as if they had one) will be sorely lacking, as will a Int 6 mage, as will a Wis 7 cleric, but you don't see either of those straw men being trotted out to argue that either of those classes "suck." In the end, the best thing we can do for bard as a class is to learn it, play it, and play it well. Once other players come to appreciate what your bard can do for their characters, as well as your bard "saving the day" by coming through in a pinch in any number of situations, and once more and more players have positive experiences like this, the popular perception of bards will begin to shift. We may even see more, and more archetypical, positive portrayal of bards in humor and fiction. So go play a bard :) Agreed, the Bard should be the most liked since he needs Chatrisma and has the skill points neccessary to dominate social stuff.
Wyrd Bearer 11-28-05, 08:28 PM	Hah, you think the bard is weak? Its the closest we'll ever get to a proper red mage, the character that can heal, cast damaging spells, fight, do roguish things and even entertain the party (or trouble) all while wearing light armour. Bards are one of the best classes out there and are probably the most fun to play to boot. Plus, once you get their musical mind control going? Whoa. And they get two of the better PrC's I've seen in a while, the Sublime Chord and Seeker of the Song from CArc, but only if you don't want to go full bard 20 (I reccommend playing three different bards, one that does each of the three possible routes). I find that even when I'm not playing a bard, I drop points into skills that are bard related. I was playing fighter once that did the TWF route with oversized TWF and focused on bastard swords. The party nicknamed him tempest and every night, before we all tucked in, he'd play on the lute that I bothered to give him skill points in. Bards are just so versitale that after I played one once, I found myself complaining that the other classes just weren't as capable.
Braids 11-28-05, 09:56 PM	As a Bard enthusiast I wouldn't call Bards underpowered. I play them quite often in largely hack 'n' Slash games and I've found their abilities are quite useful. A wand of cure light wounds, a chain shirt and a rapier can make a Bard the single biggest asset to a party.
monkmania 11-29-05, 12:12 AM	i've said this many times before, and i'll say it again... bards tend to be weaker than others in direct combat because they can effect all circumstances that lead up to when combat begins -- possibly even helping the party bypass the said combat altogether. bards are powerful in their own way.
GypsyComet 11-29-05, 01:14 AM	A big problem for the perception of bards is that there isn't a prominent positive role model for them. Fighters and Wizards are archetypes of fantasy, with many prototypes to pick from. Monks can look to any number of kung-fu outlets, or someone who is more Friar Tuck to the party's Robin Hood. Thieves -- er -- rogues can look to any number of fantasy stories which deal with more underhanded, and/or more political topics... (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, anyone? Also, some of Raymond Feist's works.... or even David Eddings for that matter.) Barbarians, of course, can look to Conan. I could go on, but can you think of a major, well-known positive bardic archetype? Sadly, Zelazny's "Changeling" and "Madwand" don't have the prominence you require, though the character does initially channel magic through his guitar. Then there is the lead character of Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" books, and the lead in one of Piers Anthony's (non-Xanth) cycles, who channels magic through poetry (a different verse each time). Stretching the theme a bit, the drummers at the back of Saruman's orc army in the LotR movies are certainly exerting a bardic music-like effect on their cohorts. While not magical, the Harpers of Pern come to mind. Then there's always that wonderful tune that starts "The Devil went down to Georgia...".
monkmania 11-29-05, 01:48 AM	A big problem for the perception of bards is that there isn't a prominent positive role model for them. Fighters and Wizards are archetypes of fantasy, with many prototypes to pick from. Monks can look to any number of kung-fu outlets, or someone who is more Friar Tuck to the party's Robin Hood. Thieves -- er -- rogues can look to any number of fantasy stories which deal with more underhanded, and/or more political topics... (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, anyone? Also, some of Raymond Feist's works.... or even David Eddings for that matter.) Barbarians, of course, can look to Conan. Well, there are a couple significant bard figures I've encountered... Bill S. Preston, Esquire Ted Theodore Logan WILD STALLIONS
Iuris 11-29-05, 04:25 AM	Humm, shouldn't bards be rather popular with the party? As in, what fighter wouldn't like a +4 - +7 to hit and damage, plus fringe benefits?
Save-vs-DM 11-29-05, 04:40 AM	All I can say is, in my current group of a good 3-4 years now, we've never failed to have a bard in the party, even if our parties only had 4 people (though mostly have have 5-6 players, so they are the fifth wheel). I am constantly amazed at just how useful this class is. Like everyone else has posted, they're not the most overtly or obviously powerful, but groups love them. I've lost count of the amount of times that measly +1 to hit made the difference between a hit and a miss in a combat. I love this class to death. I even splash a level or two of bard into most of my social characters, mostly because it fits. And in an eberron type of game, one level of bard gives your artificer a whole new bag of tricks! Cheers, Save vs DM
AngelDust Anderson 11-29-05, 04:45 AM	A big problem for the perception of bards is that there isn't a prominent positive role model for them. Fighters and Wizards are archetypes of fantasy, with many prototypes to pick from. Monks can look to any number of kung-fu outlets, or someone who is more Friar Tuck to the party's Robin Hood. Thieves -- er -- rogues can look to any number of fantasy stories which deal with more underhanded, and/or more political topics... (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, anyone? Also, some of Raymond Feist's works.... or even David Eddings for that matter.) Barbarians, of course, can look to Conan. I could go on, but can you think of a major, well-known positive bardic archetype? How about Storm Silverhand (I am a big FR fan), or for that matter many of the people who are part of the harpers. They are mostly charisma orintated rouges and bards.
Argamoth 11-29-05, 04:17 PM	Bards are lousy at dungeon-crawling. They're adequate in nearly any situation: they can fight decently, cast some nice spells, and get some nice information about the dungeon. But in a roll-playing campaign, bards stink. Unless you go into a nice city or town. No one trusts rogues to handle the money, so bards are the one to deal with social situations, like getting more gold for loot or getting a discount on healing potions. Most other classes excell in combat, but the Bard excells before and after.
Josh C 11-29-05, 04:36 PM	Bard disguises himself as a member of the enemy race, walks up to the guard at the door while whistling a tune. Player: "He has to make a will save." DM: "Ok what's the DC?" Player: Rolls d20,"42" DM: "Yikes, he can't possibly make that." Player: "I'll suggest for him to go home for a nap. Will save 30." DM: "He yawns and leaves." Player: "We wait for him to go, then sneak through the door." The will save is high enough to affect CR 20 creatures a fair amount of the time and it could be at least, even creatures with pretty good will saves like Balor and Pit Fiends. And The DC could be at least 4 points higher if he really wanted it to be. Suggestion is very powerful and the bard is the master of suggestion.
Thorak 11-29-05, 05:13 PM	Bards are lousy at dungeon-crawling. They're adequate in nearly any situation: they can fight decently, cast some nice spells, and get some nice information about the dungeon. But in a roll-playing campaign, bards stink. Unless you go into a nice city or town. No one trusts rogues to handle the money, so bards are the one to deal with social situations, like getting more gold for loot or getting a discount on healing potions. Most other classes excell in combat, but the Bard excells before and after. I disagree, on the "bad at roll-play" and "lousy at dungeon crawling" parts. Take another look at Fascinate/Suggestion. Specifically, the DCs. Especially Fascinate's. At any given level, a Bard has pretty much a 95% chance to Fascinate any creature within 5 CR of him, on an average Perform check. There's nothing in the entire MM that can consistently beat the DC on a level 20 Bard's check, even if the Bard fumbles it. And this includes beasties up to CR 25 or so. The only two restrictions are immunity to mind control and SR, which are admittedly issues, but that's why the Bard packs friends. Nobody's claiming they can handle anything better than anyone, but if the target doesn't have extreme SR and/or mind-affecting immunity, it is screwed. And Suggestion's DC is wicked too. It will be as good or better than a comparable Wizard's best spell DCs. And while they're Fascinated, you get time to make 6+ free Suggestions. Even if your Will save is extremely high, chances are you'll fail one, and the Bard only needs one to work. I believe I worked out that a standard PHB Bard with only straight PHB races and DMG magic items could, at level 20, have about a 1 in 3 chance of defeating a Great Wyrm Red Dragon outright, all by himself. How is that not "good at roll-play"? Especially since we're only talking about their level 1 and 6 bardic musics, which are hardly all the bard gets.
Nephlite 11-29-05, 05:18 PM	I disagree, on the "bad at roll-play" and "lousy at dungeon crawling" parts. Take another look at Fascinate/Suggestion. Specifically, the DCs. Especially Fascinate's. At any given level, a Bard has pretty much a 95% chance to Fascinate any creature within 5 CR of him, on an average Perform check. There's nothing in the entire MM that can consistently beat the DC on a level 20 Bard's check, even if the Bard fumbles it. And this includes beasties up to CR 25 or so. The only two restrictions are immunity to mind control and SR, which are admittedly issues, but that's why the Bard packs friends. Nobody's claiming they can handle anything better than anyone, but if the target doesn't have extreme SR and/or mind-affecting immunity, it is screwed. And Suggestion's DC is wicked too. It will be as good or better than a comparable Wizard's best spell DCs. And while they're Fascinated, you get time to make 6+ free Suggestions. Even if your Will save is extremely high, chances are you'll fail one, and the Bard only needs one to work. I believe I worked out that a standard PHB Bard with only straight PHB races and DMG magic items could, at level 20, have about a 1 in 3 chance of defeating a Great Wyrm Red Dragon outright, all by himself. How is that not "good at roll-play"? Especially since we're only talking about their level 1 and 6 bardic musics, which are hardly all the bard gets. What kind of suggestion did you use? Did yuo tell him to leave or something. Yes, that ovecomes Encounter so you'd get Exp I guess unless object was to kill him.
(TD)Faber 11-29-05, 05:39 PM	A bard is even a good class when it comes to dealing damage. No, i dont think he should be at the front, he should be a fulltime buffer-spellcaster on the field. By doing this he/she, indirectly, can do HUGE amounts of damage in a battle (in a group of 4 or more pcīs'). He buffs the party so they hit more offten (indirect damage) then when his comrade hits he does 1-5 damage extra (indirectly). Imagine an 8 lvl bard, 8 lvl fighter, 8lvl rogue, 8lvl cleric and an 8 lvl wizard. They are all buffed by the bard, getting:Inspire courage and haste Take a good turn for the bard, like this: fighter hits with all his attacks, his second attack hits thanks to the buff. First attack does 1D10 + 6 (+ 2 from bard). Second goes through AC tanks to the bard so 1d10 + 6 (11 damage average) Third attack hits to and does 1d10 +6 damage (2 from the bard) In this way the bard did damage 15 damage while it wasn't his turn. There arent very good party buffers except for wizard and bard so, yes, this is quite something. Say the rogue hits with his/her sneak attack dealing loads of damage, thanks to the bard. Say the wizard hits with his fireball, thanks to the bard. Say the cleric gave some decent damage with a weapon/spell, thanks to the bard. This is in an ideal situation, but don't forget, these situations can easily occur.
wapakguy 11-29-05, 05:42 PM	Again while not of fantasy genre but Robert Rodriguez's El Mariachi/Desperado definantly qualifies as a positive "bard" rolemodel. Traveling musician winning the hearts of local while avenging his lost love.
Thorak 11-29-05, 06:59 PM	What kind of suggestion did you use? Did yuo tell him to leave or something. Yes, that ovecomes Encounter so you'd get Exp I guess unless object was to kill him. If the goal is "loot the dragon's hoard", then it works dandy. If not, substitute things like "Why don't you show me how awesome your spells are by casting them at that boulder waaaay over there?" "That's some neat magical gear, you should let me see it for a moment." Suggestion is amazingly powerful. The trick is, the Suggestion has to sound reasonable. It doesn't have to be reasonable. Heck, one of the PHB examples involves suggesting taking a refreshing dip in a pool of acid. You can take all the magical gear away from those who need it, and make the mage burn off all their spells. The Suggestion lasts hours; if you tell a high-level mage to cast all his spells uselessly, he will do so, continuing long after the Fascinate wears off.
Oswald Krato 11-29-05, 09:21 PM	Bard: Designed as a red-mage. The "second best at everything", the bard packs friends to cover their weaknesses, and is a specialist--at whatever the party doesn't cover. They function best as archers and/or buff/enchanters. They're multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerers. In one level. Fear that nigh-gestalty combo. Seriously, though--bard is designed for range--but can handle up close. They don't really fit in a war campaign, though...their only real downside. They're like Andy in Advance Wars: no overpowering strengths ((well, okay, bardic music and suggestions and such can be huge)) but no weaknesses. They get full spellslinging, decent other stuff.
Paladin's Pride 11-29-05, 09:42 PM	One of the more commonly overlooked aspects of the Bard definately has to be Bardic Knowledge. It's not enough to be able to sweet-talk your way out of (or into) any problem, but knowing all the most obscure knowledges wrapped up into one ability can be life saving. It's particularly good at ID'ing monsters, and remembering long-lost arcana and historical niceties. Man, I agree with this one. Depending on your DM, bardic knowledge can be great. In my campaigns, bardic knowledge can get you things even knowledge skills and divinations have a hard time getting, such as the precise answer to a riddle in a dungeon, the secret phobia of a legendary dragon or the activating word to a major artifact. No one ever complained of a bard being weak in my campaign. While a bard can contribute in a hack and slash dungeon, most dungeons I know of have other elements such as puzzles that a bard can be vital for overcoming.
Mr. Sarcastic 11-29-05, 09:49 PM	I just don't get it. The bardic "Inspire" abilities alone make a Bard one of the most interesting classes. Combined with spellcasting from the best of enchantment arcane and divine spells, plus healing, the ability to take the ultimate knowledge check, a brainload of skillpoints, fairly good proficiencies, ability to cast in armor from level 1 onwards, 3/4 base attack bonus progression, good saves and a ton of synergy between class abilties, skills and spells... ..and people call him weak? Nossir, I don't get it.
Argamoth 11-29-05, 10:16 PM	Personaly, Bards are my favorite class to play, period. True, thry can be handy in a normal dungeon crawl, but I was thinking more along the lines of the munchkin-mass damage or die campaigns...that and I don't have my PHB anywhere near me for reference...
Chosen of the Dark Sun 11-29-05, 10:51 PM	And heres another fun thing I have done with my own bard PC who I'm currently using. I gave him the Battle Caster feat (Complete Arcane). This means, that, in addition to being able fight well and do plenty of skills, he can wear a suit of mithral full plate while still getting his max dexterity bonus to AC, a low impediment from ACP, and he can still cast his spells. Think about it: he can cast up to sixth level spells, he has an average amount of attack and damage, he has a really good AC, he can sneak with a moderate amount of proficiency, he can buff the whole ******* party, make money from singing, and magically influence the minds of his enemies, has good saves, moderate proficiencies, and healing. All in one character. That, my friends is power that no other class can acheive.
shades of eternity 11-29-05, 10:57 PM	is maxing out charisma and taking leadership worth their while?
Otherguy 11-29-05, 11:44 PM	is maxing out charisma and taking leadership worth their while? It can be. What bard wouldn't benefit from a fighter/barbarian following him arround, picking up buffs and acting as his big hands. Or a special cohort mount. That's always a neat variant. But you're better off, IMO, just taking caster feats or bard feats to buff the party.
CaoSlayer 11-30-05, 05:04 AM	is maxing out charisma and taking leadership worth their while? of course it is... well, maxing charisma it is in almost any case a must for a bard cause it will help with the slightly worse DC of the bardīs spell also granting extra spells and making easier to fascinate/sugest. the question it is: is leadership worth? since you are going to have a good charisma, you will be almost alway pick a cohort two levels behind... what it is the diference between a level X fighter and a level X-2 fighter? one feat, worse fort save, two hit dice two bab. what it is the diference between a level X fighter and a level X-2 fighter with inspire courage? one feat and maybe one attack cause bab (althrought both will have the same to hit bonuses). A bard it is a very nice addition to a little sized party because leadership and mass buffing if there is a party of two guys, one it is a summoner or a druid and the other it is a bard, at about level 9 if both takes leadership they can turn 2 into 4 and 4 into 1d3 guys more per round, and if the bard keep buffing them that two men weak in melee party can become a powerhouse army. And if you both wants more fodder, dominate person can grant another arm into the group. Most people see bards as a benevolent diplomat when can be perfectly a twisted man who alters others creatures minds to do this will.
CaoSlayer 11-30-05, 05:17 AM	getting a little in deep about bard and leadership: Barbarian cohort: Nice combination, bard gets the brain, barbarian get the muscles, as noted, with inspire courage almost any diference between a normal barb and you cohort will disapear, also while in rage the benefits of inspire courage it is enhanced granting from +4 to +8 extra hit points. inspire heroics nulls the two main barbarian weak points, with a +4 to saves will be very hard to charm and the +4 to AC offsets the -2 AC while in rage. It is a very know special combo the one of a half-elf with subtitucion levels + a frenzy berserker, since the level subtitution grants calm emotions as a song. Also a barbarian offer skills that a bard cant have acess like survival. Fighter cohort: Almost everything about the barbarian apply, for a tank type fighter there is nothing better than getting a extra +4 to AC, for an two weapon fighter the inspire courage +2 nulls the penalties of TWF and a THWer get extras to hit for using power attack without a penaltie to hit. I have to go now, I will get more soon.
CaoSlayer 11-30-05, 01:03 PM	Im back. Ranger: Inspire greatness it is key for a ranger, with the +2 to hit and those 2d10 +con*2 you are balancing the d8 and negating totally the penalties of rapid fire and two weapon fighting two things that it is all worth by itself. Also the ranger provides a huge amount of skill points and can be a great scout with hide in plain sight if the party lacks a rogue. Paladin: exactly same than fighter, an inspiring couraged palading performing a smite evil it is insane. wizard: One of the best combos posible, that wizard it is best used for item creation, everything he can craft, the bard can use it, also can add to the party some buffers the bard lacks like enlarge, stone skin and such. If you love to craft items it is much better to burn your palīs xp than yours. You surelly would like to specialize him and give out illusion and/or enchantment since bards covers this area nicely. sorcerer: They are slighly worse for a bard as a cohort, they dont have a very extensive spell list and their spell level will be too low (-1 from a wizard, -2 from being a cohort) anyway a sorcerer loaded with damaging or buffing spells it is everything but useless, althrought is not optimal. Druid/wizard summoner specialist: A bard it is more efective when there is more allies to summon and these two cohorts can provide of a large amount of allies, the drawback it is that they are summoning one level lower summons, the good things are the free item creation feats of the wizard and the healing, elemental damage and buffing spells of the druid. Cleric: your personal inteligent walking healing rod. Monk: see ranger, also they have a pretty low bab, causing a low to hit and the lack of weapon causes them to deal poor damage, inspire courage helps both things a lot of. It is a great tactic casting silence on the monk and having him tumble into the wizard BBEG and grapple him. Rogue: maybe the most perfect combination in the game are rogue and bard, having both means enought skill points for maxing every skill in the game a very powerful thing. Another it is the amount of spells than a bard can use so a rogue can full attack with sneak attack without having to be carnaged if the enemy survived. Grease, glitterdust, blindness and improved invisibility are some of those spells.
Dev Vim 11-30-05, 01:22 PM	I once thought bards were weak too, then i decided to make my G/F her first character.... and man what i came out with. I decided to go for a scholar like her, so i planned out a bard/artaficer that would advance into loremaster. i figured id use the bard just for its extra bonus for bardic knoledge and the fact that i could take a feat to make sure preform was a class skill for all classes (see Starwars RPG "heros guide" feat cosmopolitan) but what i found was that the bard levels were damn useful. along with being able to back the party up as a spellcaster, she can use her characters knowledge to be a walking encyclopedia and has a special psionic/magical homoculi of her own creation to help in fights. so while it keeps her covered she can sing her heart out and buff like crazy. its quite strange actually. i never appricated what a bard can do before but now... wow. you have to remember that you can never count a class out because of how it looks at first. bards are, as its been stated over and over again in this thread and in the book itself, great secondary aid characters. you probably dont want to take one down into a long dungeon crawl with you at lower levels mind you, but if your going to be in more than one setting or facing more than one type of challenge, the bard can be your best friend.
Dev Vim 11-30-05, 01:25 PM	getting a little in deep about bard and leadership: Barbarian cohort: Nice combination, bard gets the brain, barbarian get the muscles, as noted, with inspire courage almost any diference between a normal barb and you cohort will disapear, also while in rage the benefits of inspire courage it is enhanced granting from +4 to +8 extra hit points. inspire heroics nulls the two main barbarian weak points, with a +4 to saves will be very hard to charm and the +4 to AC offsets the -2 AC while in rage. It is a very know special combo the one of a half-elf with subtitucion levels + a frenzy berserker, since the level subtitution grants calm emotions as a song. Also a barbarian offer skills that a bard cant have acess like survival. Fighter cohort: Almost everything about the barbarian apply, for a tank type fighter there is nothing better than getting a extra +4 to AC, for an two weapon fighter the inspire courage +2 nulls the penalties of TWF and a THWer get extras to hit for using power attack without a penaltie to hit. I have to go now, I will get more soon. well i just posted about my girlfirends character and its funny, the bard\barbarian combo really dose help like you say. basically if your playing a bard do what we do. bard finds a corner, gets into it and starts singing. the frenzied berserk idea is great (though i dont need it since i use rightious wrath and dont attack friends anyways) and i think that its a good example for everyone else out there playing a bard. in my opinion, focus a bit more than normal on your songs, and make friends with the partys meat sheild. that way he or she can cleave though a horde of charging orcs while you pump your new best buddy up, its a win win situation
MindWandererB 11-30-05, 04:55 PM	Most of the bard's bad rep comes from 2E, I think. I loved the idea of bards in 2E, and played them frequently. And I always sucked. My character was always the gimp of the party, with only a small selection of spells, combat ability that was totally overshadowed by TWF fighters and Bladesingers, and absolutely nothing else. They were horrible. I still have bad memories of the time I played a bard with the Gallant kit and, having an utter lack of weapon proficiencies, having to try to stab kobolds with a heavy horse lance... on foot. And never did manage to kill one. Or the Blade I played who tried to assassinate a level 0 noble, who eventually bled to death from all the pinprick wounds I gave him with daggers, while I was forced to jump out the window to escape from the guards. Although there was one Elvish Minstrel that a friend of mine played that was quite good. But every time I remember the bad things, I look back on Jarlaxle in, I believe it was, Servant of the Shard. Watching him utterly kick butt with the allegedly weak swashbuckling style put faith for such characters back in my heart. One of my favorite moments in fantasy literature.
ajs 11-30-05, 05:33 PM	Bards are lousy at dungeon-crawling. They're adequate in nearly any situation: they can fight decently, cast some nice spells, and get some nice information about the dungeon. But in a roll-playing campaign, bards stink. I disagree, but here is where being a good DM is what will matter most. A bad DM can only run a game which is appropriate for the default WMPT, 4-member party makeup. When you replace the rogue with a bard you just keep running the same game and watch the TPK. See bards suck at dungeon crawls. On the other hand, the good DM looks at all of the party's assets, preferences as players, weaknesses, etc. and brings them all to bear on the adventure. So, let's look at bards. The primary thing that they lack is trap management. Since traps are a common type of encounter, the party can take far more of a hit from traps than they should, and will then be easy pickings for later encounters. What if you design traps that bards would be able to cope with? Let's see... standard D&D dungeon crawlish trap... let's say something like a banquet hall that's designed to drop a huge candellabra on the party as soon as they touch any of the plates on the table. DC20 search, DC25 disable, magic, reflex save DC 25. The bard can't detect or disable due to the trap being magical. However, the wise DM realizes this and provides a way for the bard to step up. The trap is of a type that was widely used to ensnare looting troops during a civil war 200 years ago. DC25 bardic knowledge recognizes the trap type and gives the bard a small selection of possible disarm techniques which require no skill. Problem solved. You can even design bard-specific traps if you like. The bard's spells should be able to provide enough damage on average to match the rogue, though the rogue will do more damage in those situations where they can sneak attack. At low levels, this will put the rogue in a position of advantage, but at higher levels, the rogue will face too many enemies that will have a way to get around sneak attack, and suddenly the playing field is much more even, and of course, the bard just walks all over the rogue with large numbers of very weak creatures where a sneak attack would often be overkill, but a nice 1d8 area spell (e.g. Sound Burst) can be used to full advantage. To sum up, a good DM should be able to run a party with ANY mix of well played characters. The question is only what you as a DM are up to running.