Post/Author/DateTime	Post
korcheck 07-20-07, 06:54 PM	Okay currently I am playing a bard 5th lvl but I keep seeing people complain about how bad they are so far I haven't had a problem with him so what is the big stink? why are they supposed to be a bad choise? My only problem I have had was bad die rolls making him see the light on a few occasions. so again what is the stink on the bard?
Argentsaber 07-20-07, 07:29 PM	the stink on bards comes from how they d onot keep pace at higher levels. that said, use sublime chord and you will keep up at least, if not excell.
mrpopstar 07-20-07, 07:31 PM	korcheck: Okay currently I am playing a bard 5th lvl but I keep seeing people complain about how bad they are so far I haven't had a problem with him so what is the big stink? why are they supposed to be a bad choise? My only problem I have had was bad die rolls making him see the light on a few occasions. so again what is the stink on the bard?The big stink originates from people's misunderstanding of the bard's utility. Also, successfully playing a bard requires a thorough understanding of magic and skills; this seems to daunt and/or confuse people. Additionally, much of the bard's strength is expressed in interaction with others and such interaction is not always explicitly addressed and/or supported in the rules; therefore enjoyment of a bard is largely dependant upon DM fiat. Furthermore, bards exhibit strength through others via inspiration, buffing, suggestion, support, etc.; many players desire to be strong on their own. To continue, in comparison to spellslinging wizards, hacking fighters, skulking rogues, and god-praised clerics, the idea of a performing artiste seems a bit "fluffy" to most people. The list goes on and on... :)
Howland Reed 07-20-07, 07:32 PM	This is just me personally, but I think bards kinda suck because they don't fit any niche very well...and they don't even do jack-of-all-trades well. Basically, anything they can do, someone else can do better. They were intended to be lightly armored, semi-fighter, lite-magic skill monkey, with a few ally-buffing abilities. But let's compare them to some other classes... Swordsage: Same BAB, same saves, same skills (roughly), same armor, better weapons, better HD. No magic, but compare the usefulness of the bards magic/music to a swordsage's maneuvers, stances, and assorted other abilities. Dragon Shaman: Same BAB, comparable saves (fort/will instead of ref/will), worse skills, better armor, comparable weapons, WAY better HD. No magic, but compare the bard's magic/music to a dragon shaman's ally buffing auras, not to mention stuff like breath weapons and touch of vitality. Duskblade: Better BAB, comparable saves, worse skills, better armor (even casting in it), better weapons, better HD. Better magic, and their special abilities are generally more useful than a bard's. Factotum: Same BAB, comparable saves (I think; don't have Dungeonscape, going from memory here), better skills (all class skills?), same armor, better weapons, better HD. And with their ability to mimic other abilities, they do jack of all trades way better...shoot, they can literally do anything a bard can do, PLUS anything other classes can do (just not all at once). 'Bout the only thing they lose is fixed magic, but compare their ability to fire spells to a bard's mediocre casting. They're not so awful I'd never play one...but depending on character concept, unless the character was BASED on music, I'd probably look at other classes first. If you ARE set on a bard, you should prestige out ASAP...Lyric Thaumaturge, Sublime Chord, Warsinger...these are all better than just straight-up bard.
danielinthewolvesden 07-20-07, 07:54 PM	Bard is OK, but not very powerful. They can max out certain skills, which can make them broken sometimes out of combat. They can do a bit of healing, which is nice if the "real" cleric-type wants to wade into combat. They have some very USEFUL arcane spells, which is very nice if the party's arcanist is a Warmage, Warlock or even a specialized Sorc. They need a small fix, no doubt. I would give them a choice of any one martial weapons Group (from UA), a D8, and maybe even all Good saves. There are planty of nice PrC's and alternative class abilities, so Bards certainly are not "cookie-cutter".
mrpopstar 07-20-07, 08:03 PM	Argentsaber: the stink on bards comes from how they d onot keep pace at higher levels.In what regard? :) Howland Reed: This is just me personally, but I think bards kinda suck because they don't fit any niche very well...and they don't even do jack-of-all-trades well. Basically, anything they can do, someone else can do better.What bards do is make everyone else better at what it is that they do. Who does that better than a bard? :) They were intended to be lightly armored, semi-fighter, lite-magic skill monkey, with a few ally-buffing abilities. But let's compare them to some other classes... Swordsage: Same BAB, same saves, same skills (roughly), same armor, better weapons, better HD. No magic, but compare the usefulness of the bards magic/music to a swordsage's maneuvers, stances, and assorted other abilities. Dragon Shaman: Same BAB, comparable saves (fort/will instead of ref/will), worse skills, better armor, comparable weapons, WAY better HD. No magic, but compare the bard's magic/music to a dragon shaman's ally buffing auras, not to mention stuff like breath weapons and touch of vitality. Duskblade: Better BAB, comparable saves, worse skills, better armor (even casting in it), better weapons, better HD. Better magic, and their special abilities are generally more useful than a bard's. Factotum: Same BAB, comparable saves (I think; don't have Dungeonscape, going from memory here), better skills (all class skills?), same armor, better weapons, better HD. And with their ability to mimic other abilities, they do jack of all trades way better...shoot, they can literally do anything a bard can do, PLUS anything other classes can do (just not all at once). 'Bout the only thing they lose is fixed magic, but compare their ability to fire spells to a bard's mediocre casting.They were intended to rule the social arena. The classes you chose for comparison are inappropriate considering they exhibit strength mostely within combat. It would better exemplify your point to compare bards to charismatic rogues or specialist enchanters. I do caution that such comparison would discredit you however. :) They're not so awful I'd never play one...but depending on character concept, unless the character was BASED on music, I'd probably look at other classes first. If you ARE set on a bard, you should prestige out ASAP...Lyric Thaumaturge, Sublime Chord, Warsinger...these are all better than just straight-up bard.They are all better than just straight up bard if one measures worth by direct output in combat. Next time you see a "straight-up bard" in action, quantify the amount of bonuses he is throwing around the table. Maybe even keep track of the amount of skill checks and attacks that are successful solely due to the +X garnered from the bard. No other character will come close to touching the bard in respect to upping the effectiveness and efficiency of your party. :)
Howland Reed 07-20-07, 08:28 PM	The classes I posted were all meant to mimic certain aspects of the bard, or which were highly comparable mechanically. It depends on how you define a bard. You're right, I neglected the social aspect (possibly because it is neglected in the rules, to an extent). But for that, let's talk about the Beguiler. Worse BAB and saves, true. Same HD, similar ability to cast in light armor, better spells (per day AND selection), good skills, useful class abilities. In what way does a bard out-social the beguiler? They may buff a little better... As for your suggestion about bonuses a bard gives...when it comes to buffing allies, how does a bard's music (limited use, limited bonus) compare the constant buffing of a dragon shaman's auras? Or a marshal's, for that matter? I don't have my PH in front of me, but at low levels a bard can boost combat effectiveness and skill checks. Dragon Shaman can boost combat effectiveness (better than a bard, IMO) and a few skill checks (presence for social, senses for spot/listen, plus initiative). But how often do you need to boost an odd skill check? Shoot, the bard should probably be MAKING the skill check...he's the one with 6/lvl skill points. Your warrior doesn't need help with skills...he's there to kill stuff. Your cleric doesn't need help with skills...he's there to cast healing spells. Your arcanist doesn't need help with skills...he's there to cast "I win" spells. The only one who needs good skills, most of the time...is the skill monkey. And he should have enough skill points to render the bard's +2 bonus relatively unimportant. AND the bard can only give those +1 or +2 bonuses a limited number of times per day. A shaman's auras are 24/7, unless he's KO'd. I'll grant you bards fill a single niche...ally boost PLUS social focus. Okay, congrats...but I'd still rather have a dragon shaman...take a totem that gives you Diplomacy and/or Bluff as a class skill, put a decent score in Int. You can then max out Bluff/Diplo/Intimidate, your Cha gives you more (and synergizes nicely with your other class features, like touch of vitality), and your Presence Aura is icing on the cake. I'll put him up against a bard for buffing and social use...AND he's more useful in combat.
dman11235 07-21-07, 01:02 AM	Okay, bards are a really nice addition to the party. Unlike your examples, the bard is not a one trick pony. I have seen good bards played, and they were a better addition than say the ranger. I am a scout, and without the bard giving me the +10 morale to attack and damage, I wouldn't be doing much. Mostly after my DM gave the monsters higher ACs because the bard was that good. All I have to say is go words of creation. He never uses the skill one. He uses inspire courage and heroics. The spells that bards bring into a party are any spell in existance, provided they can get their hands on a scroll, as there is not a single bard I have seen without UMD. Also, the bards tend to stay out of melee when they can. They tend to cast battle field control spells, not damaging ones. Spells like slow, ray of dizziness, haste, I don't know what come after this, we usually win by this time. All thanks to the bard. Oh, and factotums are not very good at all. @the OP: Your bard is fine. If you need help later, just look at the spells you can get, like animate intrument, for free hands while continuing BM. Get a masterwork instrument for bonuses to perform. There are instruments that give a boost to bardic music. Grab a vest of legends. There is a spell that boosts inspire courage. Words of Creation doubles many bardic music bonuses. Grab spells like ray of dizziness, slow, haste, etc. Grab a couple of spells that deal damage, but that's not your specialty.
Jaxgaret 07-21-07, 01:16 AM	Bards fall squarely in the middle of the pack on the power curve, or a bit above it. To some, the above means that they are perfectly balanced; to others, it means that they are woefully underpowered. Welcome to the world of differing opinions when it comes to comparative power levels of base classes. I personally am a big fan of Bards; I like their all around usefulness, especially in larger parties (5+ PCs). Combined with the Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord, you have yourself a pretty effective caster who also gets all the Bard goodies.
captianhowdy 07-21-07, 01:31 AM	Splatbooks should help if you want a bit of extra zazz. Dirgesinger, Dragonsong Lyricist, that kinda stuff. Or, if your Dm allows homebrew, search the PrC board for the Disciple of Metal Bard PrC
mkill 07-21-07, 04:56 AM	Bards are fine. The "bards suck" crowd is mostly the people whe measure a classes utility in direct damage output or monster killing ability. Well, of course a bard isn't good in that department, but that's not what the bard is for. The bards strengths are: buffing the group support spellcasting: enchantments, illusions, healing diplomacy and social skills knowledge / information gathering use magic device (the most-overlooked ability) The main reason the bard is underestimated is, that he often helps others shine instead of taking the spotlight all for himself, which for some people is "weak". Of course, there are other classes which surpass the bard in one or two of the areas, but there is no class which is better in all five areas. As for bard prestige classes, the downside of them is that you can either boost your bardic music and lose spellcasting or boost spellcasting and lose on bardic music, or lose spellcasting and gain some melee ability, but only the straight bard walks a well-balanced middle ground.
Rulebook 07-21-07, 06:00 AM	I'm probably going to be part of an all bard (and bard prc) team in a survival/cheese out type competition. our preliminary tests have shown that our party works quite well we use a warchanter for the frontliner, we have some guys who are just barely getting into the Sublime Chord and Seeker of the Song, and i think we have a Virtuoso (if our levels check out). this is in addition to a regular bard or two as well. healing is handled via magic items and limited spells. UMD is NOT a problem in this group. with our warchanter boosting attack power we dont have a problem hitting or doing damage either.
korcheck 07-21-07, 11:47 AM	after reading this I think I am begining to see a trend that I'm not sure I like. If you have ever played in the rifts multiverse you know that everytime a new book comes out the classes in it are usually more powerful than the last book. this seems to be going on here abit is this right or am i mistaken? So basically I am emjoying my bard because I play him correctly as a buff and skills bot helping others out so I don't get my pretty face smashed in. This is what I am getting from everyone that doesn't have a problem with bards and those who do seem to simply disagree on what class might best perform these roles in a group? but it seems to me that the ones suggested as an alternative are out of the complete books and their like.
Howland Reed 07-21-07, 12:21 PM	To dman, I'm not familiar with words of creation...if it doubles your bardic music bonuses (that was what I got out of your post), that goes a long way towards bringing bards forward. To mkill, all right, I'll admit, nobody does all 5 of those like bard. My only question then is why you want/need a single character to do all 5 of those. And I may as well point out again that a brass dragon shaman can do 4 of 5 (no UMD, and counting his healing as support) nearly as well (better sometimes) as a bard, with better combat capability. And a beguiler can handle 4 of the 5 (no buffing) with better spellcasting and utility. Oh, and I don't think playing support is "weak"...but I don't see why you can't play support and be capable of handling yourself in a fight. *shrug* To the OP, I don't necessarily think it's because newer splatbook classes are more powerful...I think that compared to a core bard, the newer classes often fit his basic niche (5th wheel) better. Other disagree (mainly disagreement on what exactly a bard is for), and that's fine. After hearing from dman, I'm wondering if those who like bards might simply have access to better bard optimization (feats and so on) from books I don't have (words of creation, for example). It all comes down to what you think is fun to play...if you're enjoying your bard, why listen to others? But you asked for an opinion, you got several. :)
korcheck 07-21-07, 12:42 PM	It all comes down to what you think is fun to play...if you're enjoying your bard, why listen to others? But you asked for an opinion, you got several. :) Yes I did and thanks to all of you. I'm also curious where the feat words of creation is. I do like the class but was trying to understand why people were complaining abouit them I think that when they were made perhaps we can agree they were a great class but now there are alternatives to that class just as there are alternatives to the other core classes.
dman11235 07-21-07, 01:32 PM	Words of Creation is from the Book of Exhalted Deeds. It is an exhalted feat. Requires int and ch 15, but it is worth it, especially since int and cha are two things bards want. It also does things for non-bards, but really bards reap the most benifit from the feat. @Howland Reed: who said bards can't hold their own in a fight? They have weapon proficiencies, and they have spells. Bards can play support and hold their own in a fight. Dragon Shamans can't buff the party as well as a well played bard, even without words of creation. And it takes a specific dragon totem to do the social aspects. There is no class (besides maybe the marshal) that can match the bard's buffing abilities.
mrpopstar 07-21-07, 02:17 PM	Howland Ree: The classes I posted were all meant to mimic certain aspects of the bard, or which were highly comparable mechanically. It depends on how you define a bard.One's definition of the bard is the basis of our respective contentions. :) You're right, I neglected the social aspect (possibly because it is neglected in the rules, to an extent). But for that, let's talk about the Beguiler. Worse BAB and saves, true. Same HD, similar ability to cast in light armor, better spells (per day AND selection), good skills, useful class abilities. In what way does a bard out-social the beguiler? They may buff a little better...The social aspect is not neglected in the rules. It is pointedly addressed in a manner comparable to all other applications of character skill. The difficulty in adjudication comes from the commonly-held idea that one must "enact" their diplomacy/bluff/suggestion when producing such things as the player of a bard character. This requirement nerfs capability considering most players are not as silver-tongued as a bard. Imagine how ineffective a rogue would be if the DM required his player to enact his tumble skill. In regard to the beguiler, a bard has the capability to take control and manipulate victims with much better effect and efficiency. Fascinate is extremely powerful in the hands of a bard designed mindfully. A masterwork lute playing bard accompanying his strumming with song, having taken VERSATILE PERFORMER, is making a Perform check at +4 before even considering the effective level increase for wielding the lute, skill ranks in Perform, CHA stat bonus to Perform skill, other feats, and spells within his arsenal that make the job easier. The beguiler is a formidable opponent yes, but the bard has a staggering capability for social command. :) As for your suggestion about bonuses a bard gives...when it comes to buffing allies, how does a bard's music (limited use, limited bonus) compare the constant buffing of a dragon shaman's auras? Or a marshal's, for that matter? I don't have my PH in front of me, but at low levels a bard can boost combat effectiveness and skill checks. Dragon Shaman can boost combat effectiveness (better than a bard, IMO) and a few skill checks (presence for social, senses for spot/listen, plus initiative). But how often do you need to boost an odd skill check? Shoot, the bard should probably be MAKING the skill check...he's the one with 6/lvl skill points. Your warrior doesn't need help with skills...he's there to kill stuff. Your cleric doesn't need help with skills...he's there to cast healing spells. Your arcanist doesn't need help with skills...he's there to cast "I win" spells. The only one who needs good skills, most of the time...is the skill monkey. And he should have enough skill points to render the bard's +2 bonus relatively unimportant. AND the bard can only give those +1 or +2 bonuses a limited number of times per day. A shaman's auras are 24/7, unless he's KO'd.The difference between a dragon shaman and a bard is that the dragon shaman's boosts are made one at a time, and they are very narrow in scope. A bard can produce a bonus that has every character within earshot fighting better, damaging better, and making saves better. There are feats that allow a bard to produce such effects while maintaining his ability to cast spells. There are even ways for a bard to maintain one type of bardic music while producing another. Also, instrument selection and various spells maximize the bard's contribution. Your statement that such capability has limited use and limited bonus is supported only by your misunderstanding of the options available to the bard. The question of how often one might need to make an odd skill check and your examples of how select classes are immune to such possible requirments is answered by pointing out the bard's true purpose in an adventuring party. Warriors are there to kill stuff, yes; clerics are there to heal, yes; arcanists are there to blow stuff up, yes; and skill monkeys are there to be effectively skillful, yes. However, there are undeniably situations where each of these specialists needs help; moments where success is the difference between life and death for all involved. That's where the bard comes in. The bard is the "insurance policy". His niche is to guarantee success in all endeavors. As I stated before, he makes his party more effective (by improving capability) and more effecient (by shouldering versatility and freeing his companions to focus on specialty). If your bard is only producing +1 and +2 bonuses a very limited amount of times per day (as stated in your example) then I recommend a review on your build. :) I'll grant you bards fill a single niche...ally boost PLUS social focus. Okay, congrats...but I'd still rather have a dragon shaman...take a totem that gives you Diplomacy and/or Bluff as a class skill, put a decent score in Int. You can then max out Bluff/Diplo/Intimidate, your Cha gives you more (and synergizes nicely with your other class features, like touch of vitality), and your Presence Aura is icing on the cake. I'll put him up against a bard for buffing and social use...AND he's more useful in combat.I maintain my stance that a bard is a stronger social contender, and more adequate buffer than a dragon shaman. In respect to usefulness in combat, a dragon shaman is primarily a melee combatant; thusly he is more effective and efficient in comparison to the bard. However, 'useful' is an ambiguous term here considering the bard is a swiss-army knife of uses (in and out of combat). :)
Howland Reed 07-21-07, 02:41 PM	I'll withdraw my assertions that a bard is weak for his (carefully) defined role, based on the fact that (after a bit of research) I apparently have never encountered a well-optimized bard (though I plead that I do not have Complete Adventurer, Book of Exalted Deeds, or Song and Silence). I reserve my contention that dragon shamans are effective buffers and are more fun to play. :) But to each his own, and I realize that this does not invalidate the bard as a choice. For the OP...a link I found, that may prove useful to you. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-614371 Not to digress the thread, but a few more questions for mrpopstar, if he wouldn't mind expounding (besides, they'd probably be useful to the OP, so they're on topic). What's so powerful about fascinate? You affect a single target at first (increasing every 3 lvls, to 7 targets at 19th) and it simply makes them do nothing. In what way is this useful or powerful? The only options I'm seeing right now are distraction (useful, when you need it) and escape. I'll grant the high save DC makes it almost surefire, but what are it's prime uses? Could I inquire what feats let a bard cast and/or do multiple music effects?
FabulousRex 07-21-07, 02:48 PM	Point #3 had perhaps the best example of what makes Bards awesome in a party. They shoulder the versatility so that the others in the group can focus to become specialists. Nothing is more annoying than having to make your Rogue talk somewhat decently because he's the only one who didn't dump CHA. Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music (Buffing and Mind-Controlling), Bardic Magic (Buffing, Healing, Social, Crowd-Control), Bardic Skills, Bardic weapon and armor proficiencies. It adds up to -far- more than it seems at first glance. True, I wouldn't dare have a party without the 4 basics: Tank, Divine-Beatstick, Skillmonkey, Arcane Caster. However, with all of those roles filled, a well-played Bard can skyrocket a group's potential. It's called a force-multiplier, and smart generals and wargamers have been focusing on multipliers for decades for a reason.
JellyPooga 07-21-07, 02:55 PM	I :inlove: Bards, simply because (IMO) they have some of the best (from a thematic POV) spells in the game...all those Wizards and Sorcerers can keep their Fireball and Power Word :Kill spells, I'll just sit over here casting Insidious Rhythm and Dirge of Dischord...I'd like to see them cast their fancy-pancy "high" magic with those babies floating round the room :P .
CaoSlayer 07-21-07, 02:57 PM	Okay currently I am playing a bard 5th lvl but I keep seeing people complain about how bad they are so far I haven't had a problem with him so what is the big stink? why are they supposed to be a bad choise? My only problem I have had was bad die rolls making him see the light on a few occasions. so again what is the stink on the bard? Show me your feats and your spells. Bards that stinks are those that are build without a clear role but spread all their resources trying to be good at everything, and fails because a bard needs to use feats and spells for being as powerful as another class in one task while keeping the advantage of having other things to do. Also I have to agree that bards start slow, their biggest gun, suggestion cant be used until level 6 and spells dont start to be amazing until level 7 when you can pink stuff like haste, also have few uses per day.
OneWinged4ngel 07-21-07, 03:03 PM	Show me your feats and your spells. Bards that stinks are those that are build without a clear role but spread all their resources trying to be good at everything, and fails because a bard needs to use feats and spells for being as powerful as another class in one task while keeping the advantage of having other things to do. Also I have to agree that bards start slow, their biggest gun, suggestion cant be used until level 6 and spells dont start to be amazing until level 7 when you can pink stuff like haste, also have few uses per day. I dunno, a +2 or 3 Inspire Courage (with Song of the Heart or Inspirational Boost) is a solid start. The melee fighters get to pretend they have 3 more BAB, and do more damage making them even more lethal at low levels.
mrpopstar 07-21-07, 03:09 PM	Howland Reed: To mkill, all right, I'll admit, nobody does all 5 of those like bard. My only question then is why you want/need a single character to do all 5 of those. And I may as well point out again that a brass dragon shaman can do 4 of 5 (no UMD, and counting his healing as support) nearly as well (better sometimes) as a bard, with better combat capability. And a beguiler can handle 4 of the 5 (no buffing) with better spellcasting and utility.You want/need a single character to do all of those things because its fun! Also, because it is most effective and efficient to have a "fifth wheel" character who is adequately capable to fill in should the need arise. You would have us believe that a dragon shaman is much more versatile in effect than is true. The dragon shaman class has the potential capability to excel in specific roles that compare to the bard's, however he does so at the expense of other aspects of his potentiality. The bard maintains effect in respect to his broad potential, this is an inherent strength of the class. The dragon shaman is not buffing comparable to a bard considering those who wish to enjoy the benefit must be within 30ft of him and within line of effect. Bard's are boosting anyone who can hear him. I am confused as to how a dragon shaman contributes supportive spellcasting. A dragon shaman utilizing social skills is only one single example of dragon shaman build whereas most all bards excel at such skills, having focused on them or not. Again, it is only a specific type of dragon shaman who is able to contribute Knowledge and/or Information gathering skills and these are in no way comparable to the bard who has access to all knowledge skills, Bardic Knowledge, and more skill points to spend on such things. Dragon shamans also do not have access to Use Magic Device. The dragon shaman, though effective and efficient in role, does not compare to a bard. The beguiler is a more appropriate comparison for the bard, however, their roles are very different within the group. A bard is insuring success for all involved, and the beguiler is functioning much more like a spellcasting rogue. :) Oh, and I don't think playing support is "weak"...but I don't see why you can't play support and be capable of handling yourself in a fight.The beauty of the bard, and why he is coined a jack-of-all trades, is that he can "handle himself" in most any situation. Pitting a bard against a combatant singly sort of castrates a bard's effectiveness considering his strength is his companions. The weapons of the bard are his inspired fellows. You don't send a warrior into battle without a weapon, a cleric into battle without his god, or an arcanist into battle without prepared spells, so why would you send a bard into battle without his fans? :)
CaoSlayer 07-21-07, 03:25 PM	I dunno, a +2 or 3 Inspire Courage (with Song of the Heart or Inspirational Boost) is a solid start. The melee fighters get to pretend they have 3 more BAB, and do more damage making them even more lethal at low levels. I know the "inspire beast" build but I was just talking about a regular non-optimized bard. The thing we are talking about is how there are many feats and spells able to boost bardic music to ridiculous levels, By level 8 a bard with inspirational boost, words of creation and song of the heart can pull a +6 to hit and damage for everybody and this bonus can be bigger with a masterwork instrument or you can start the song as a swift action with a white raven maneuver and/or you can cast spells while keeping the song going. This is the reason of asking about spells and feats, because just a single feat can boost a bard power by a lot of and most bad bards are those with feats such as weapon focus or combat expertise.
mrpopstar 07-21-07, 03:25 PM	Howland Reed: Not to digress the thread, but a few more questions for mrpopstar, if he wouldn't mind expounding (besides, they'd probably be useful to the OP, so they're on topic).Sorry, I've been trying to remain concise. I'm sitting in a waiting room and playing on my iPhone. :) What's so powerful about fascinate? You affect a single target at first (increasing every 3 lvls, to 7 targets at 19th) and it simply makes them do nothing. In what way is this useful or powerful? The only options I'm seeing right now are distraction (useful, when you need it) and escape. I'll grant the high save DC makes it almost surefire, but what are it's prime uses?What's so powerful about Fascinate? Why, Suggestion of course! :) Could I inquire what feats let a bard cast and/or do multiple music effects?VERSATILE PERFORMER allows a bard to utilize various Perform skills and maintain them at equal measure as he levels and allots skill points. Also, he can accompany one type of performance with another and increase his effectiveness. ARCANE FLOURISH and ARCANE ACCOMPANIMENT allow a bard to expend spells to gain a bonus on his Perform check and extend the duration of a bardic music effect. This allows him to begin another while a former effect is in place. LINGERING SONG extends the length of time Inspire Courage remains in effect after producing the effect, allowing the bard to produce another effect and enjoy the benefits of both. MELODIC CASTING allows a bard to cast spells while using bardic music. It also allows a bard to make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check (insanely powerful). There are many examples. :)
The_Shaman 07-21-07, 03:26 PM	BTW, I am currently planning a Bard/Lyric thaumaturge, probably going into sublime chord later on (with a bit of virtuoso, if I'm feeling cheesy). Can anyone offer some tips? I will probably focus on magic more than on songs or combat (as one can imagine), although I would like to retain as much of those as possible. So far, my idea is Bard 6/LT 3 (or 4, if only that and SChord are allowed) / Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 9. I thought about substituting virtuoso with wild soul, which could yield some interesting results - it is a throw between extra singing power and magic/summoning tricks.
CaoSlayer 07-21-07, 03:39 PM	Fascinate/suggestion is so powerful that allows a bard 10 to make an ancient red dragon cry with a good chance of success. I have no time to show the maths, just calculate the usual perform check of a level 10 bard with just a masterwork instrument and a cloak of charisma +4 (just have items for any bard) and maybe a circle of persuasion and then remember that a bard can try the suggestion ten times, so ever with a slim 10% chance to suggest someone, with 10 tries the chance becomes (1 - (9^10)), about a 70% for making (that fails the suggestion with an 1 or a 2) cry.
mrpopstar 07-21-07, 04:08 PM	Fabulous Rex: Point #3 had perhaps the best example of what makes Bards awesome in a party. They shoulder the versatility so that the others in the group can focus to become specialists. Nothing is more annoying than having to make your Rogue talk somewhat decently because he's the only one who didn't dump CHA. Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music (Buffing and Mind-Controlling), Bardic Magic (Buffing, Healing, Social, Crowd-Control), Bardic Skills, Bardic weapon and armor proficiencies. It adds up to -far- more than it seems at first glance.So true! As I said in my first post, it requires a solid understanding of all aspects of the game (combat, skills, spells) in order to play a bard most effectively. The same can be said of all classes, though it is especially important for the bard considering he functions as a smattering of all different types of effect working in tandem. :)
korcheck 07-21-07, 08:17 PM	Show me your feats and your spells. Bards that stinks are those that are build without a clear role but spread all their resources trying to be good at everything, and fails because a bard needs to use feats and spells for being as powerful as another class in one task while keeping the advantage of having other things to do. Also I have to agree that bards start slow, their biggest gun, suggestion cant be used until level 6 and spells dont start to be amazing until level 7 when you can pink stuff like haste, also have few uses per day. this character is being played in eberron and is right now a human 5lvl bard and 2lvl aberrant heir (this game about in game and was not originally planned) his feats are as follows Improved Init., extra music, least abberant mark (produce flame), and song of the heart. He is the groups buff bot, back up healer, (the other is a rogue/druid goblin don't ask) and knowledge bank. his spells which up to now have been forced to be more utility spells are goin to change if I can convince the DM, now that we have a wizard i want to focus my spell more towards the mental ie scare and hold person and illusion ie mirror image route.
navar100 07-21-07, 08:34 PM	They were intended to rule the social arena. The classes you chose for comparison are inappropriate considering they exhibit strength mostely within combat. It would better exemplify your point to compare bards to charismatic rogues or specialist enchanters. I do caution that such comparison would discredit you however. :) Take 1 warlock. Add in a dash of Beguiling Influence. Season with a feat to make Diplomacy a class skill. Voila: A better social character than the bard.
Irving 07-21-07, 08:45 PM	If you think that high Diplomacy is the be-all end-all of a social character, you've got another thing coming. There are at least three other skills you need to make that one work.
CaoSlayer 07-21-07, 08:52 PM	If you think that high Diplomacy is the be-all end-all of a social character, you've got another thing coming. There are at least three other skills you need to make that one work. There is also two other social skills for a bard named charm person and glibness. Charm person + diplomacy is a nice combo because while charm person turns someone attitude to helpful with diplomacy you can turn him into a fanatic follower with a lower check. And when the spell wears off the will be still your friend. With charm, diplomacy, dominate, geas and leadership available, a bard who is alone is a badly played bard, a bard isnt a class that kills people, it is a class that makes others to kill for him.
Lotus Crane 07-21-07, 10:25 PM	Bards are actually quite good, but their advantages are sometimes difficult to measure, at least in a traditional sense. Still, there are some things to keep in mind. 1) Bards actually contribute more than their fair share of damage to combat, if you give them credit for the extra damage their buffs allow allies to deal. The next time you run a combat, keep a damage tally, except that every time a buffed ally hits, any extra damage is added to the bard's score instead of the ally's, and if the ally only actually hit because of the bard's buff, add all the damage to the bard's score. For example, Bob the bard uses inspire courage +2, so when Frank the fighter hits an enemy for 20 damage, 18 points are credited to Frank, and 2 points are credited to Bob. If Frank hits an enemy AC exactly, or by only 1 point higher, then because he would have missed without inspire courage, at least half (if not all) of the damage the fighter deals should be credited to the bard instead. 2) Read the actual rules for a bard's fascinate and suggestion abilities. The save DC for those is much higher than ever possible for equivalent spells, so a bard is actually still better at manipulating people than a beguiler (though beguilers are admittedly better at stealth). Bards also get glibness for +30 Bluff, which basically means that they can convince any NPC of any lie at any time, just in case they're shielded against the mind effects of fascinate and suggestion. 3) Bards are quite possibly the best magic item users in the game (their only real competion are warlocks and artificers, neither of which are core). Use Magic Device is a class skill for them, Charisma is their primary ability score, and because they have actual spellcasting ability (unlike a rogue), there are lots of items they can either use without a check, and items for which they have an easier time emulating requirements. Finally, it's important to keep in mind that even though bards are billed as "jacks of all trades," they still work better if you build one around a specialized strength. The typical builds are: 1) Fight-better-than-a-fighter-bard, which uses Arcane Strike (CWar) and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) for insane personal attack and damage bonuses, and usually takes levels in Warchanter (CWar), Dragonslayer (Draconomicon), Abjurant Champion (CMag), and the like. 2) Cast-better-than-a-sorcerer bard, which uses Captivating Melody (CMag) and Melodic Casting (CMag), as well as some combination of Sublime Chord (CArc) and Lyric Thaumaturge (CMag). There are also dual-caster builds that will take druid for Fochlucan Lyrist (CAdv), or wizard for Ultimate Magus (CMag), but these are generally ineffective and impractical unless the game actually starts at double-digit levels. The veil of allure (MIC) isn't a bad idea if you want to focus on enchantments. (IMHO, the biggest reason for Sublime Chord being so good is that because you still gain Otto's irresistible dance as a 6th level spell, even though you can cast it with 6th-9th level spell slots. Against single opponents, including BBEG's several levels higher than the party, Otto spells "GAME OVER" for them.) 3) The-classic-ultimate-buffing-bard, which uses Song of the Heart (EberronCS), Words of Creation (BoED), and the vest of legends (DMG II) to produce songs which can literally double the offensive capabilities of a party (we're talking +10 attack and damage for the party, among other things). You usually take straight bard 20 for this. Trying to mix roles will usually stretch you too thin, and turn you into the stereotypically-useless-bard-which-most-uninformed-people-on-these-boards-think-it-is.
Khan the Destroyer 07-21-07, 10:34 PM	A few other notes on the bard... A player that wants to have his bard 'handle himself' in combat can do so. Note that a bard's musical inspiration (with the exception of Inspire Competence) affects himself as well. An optimized Inspire Courage can give the bard the same to-hit and damage as a fighter at lower levels (maybe even higher). At 9th level, an optimized Inspire Greatness can give the bard more hit points than the party fighter (though not the barbarian). Spells such as Displacement and Mirror Image can reduce the chances of getting hit in combat drastically. Assuming the bard doesn't stall combat in the first place through social interaction or Fascinate/Suggestion, he has the means to bolster himself up. In regards to offensive capabilities, the bard begins with proficiency in the whip. Someone interested in combat can invest in Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm/Trip. Remember that your Disarm attempt is an attack roll, so your optimized Inspire Courage will be put to good use. For tripping, the bard can use his Inspiration spell to add luck bonuses to his check. Against larger enemies or those that have no manufactured weapons, offset the cost of Combat Expertise with your Inspire Courage for more AC without hurting your to-hit. Sundering is another possible option for bards with optimized Inspire Courage, since they get bonuses to both attack and damage, the bread and butter of sunder attempts. On top of all of this, the bard may be one of the most fun classes to play in the sense that the player should always have something to contribute. Whether it be in regards to magic, healing, combat, skills, or helping someone else, the player playing the bard should have an option most of the time.
Khan the Destroyer 07-21-07, 11:22 PM	Finally, it's important to keep in mind that even though bards are billed as "jacks of all trades," they still work better if you build one around a specialized strength. I think even the jack of all trades bard can give a specialized character a run for his money. Silverbrow Human Bard 20 (Bardic Knack variant) 1. Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration 3. Song of the Heart 6. Words of Creation 9. ??? 12. ??? 15. ??? 18. ??? Really, this build focuses on combat and skills, with Inspirational Boost and Improvisation as the notable spells. Your bardic music is optimized for your party, but for you as well. At level 6, we're looking at a bonus of +6/+6 to-hit and damage. Throw on your BAB of 4, a masterwork weapon, and your strength modifier, and you should be rivaling the fighter, if not surpassing him. Now, you fight as well (at the minimum) as a regular fighter, and the fighter in your party fights even better, as does everyone else (in regards to chances of hitting and dealing damage). At level 9, your Inspire Greatness will add 6 bonus d10 HD with Words of Creation. This will bring your HP (82 with 12 constitution) to what the average 9th level fighter has (81 with 16 constitution), as well as boost your fortitude save by 4 points and your attack modifier by 6 points. If time is allowed, throw in Displacement to take 1/2 as many hits as any other party member. Or go for Mirror Image, to reduce the chance of even getting attacked dramatically. In regards to skills, you can use Inspire Competence to add +6 to someone's roll. (And I disagree with the notion that other classes do not need to roll skill checks. They do, they just suck at them usually. The bard can negate armor check penalties, negative ability modifiers, and the like.) The bard himself however, ends up being a better skill monkey than the rogue. Bardic Knack substitutes half of the bard's level for any ranks in the skill he may have. Improvisation allows him to add a luck bonus equal to half his level to any skill check. This means that the bard can have a bonus to any skill check equal to his character level plus his relevant ability modifier. This is pretty huge. Max several key skills, but make sure you put 1 rank in the ones you want to use but cannot be used untrained. The rogue has the most skill points, but this bard combo gives the bard many many more virtual and magical skill points, allowing him to do more than the rogue, and to do it just as well or better. For this to work even better, invest in Rings of Wizardry (Level 1) as soon as possible, so that you have more Improvisation spells to draw on. We now have a bard that can dramatically improve the party's combat potential, as well as his own. We also have a bard that can improve a character's skill check by 6 points (which is substantial considering set DC's), as well as make virtually any skill check as if he had max ranks in the skill. This bard can also outdamage the rogue. With Dragonfire Inspiration, you can forgo the bonus to attack from Inspire Courage to effectively triple the damage bonus by converting each damage bonus into a d6 worth of damage instead. That same bard at level 6 can instead add 6d6 points of cold damage to everyone's attacks. Now... Compare that to the rogue's sneak attack damage at level 6, which is half as much (3d6). Realize that the bard adds this damage to his attacks, as well as everyone else's attacks, unlike the rogue, who is the only one dealing sneak attack damage. Understand that this damage is much easier to deal since it does not require special circumstances, and far fewer creatures are immune to it relative to sneak attack damage. Assuming he's the 5th PC, the bard is bringing 30d6 points of damage to the table just for singing, assuming everyone hits once. And this... at level 6. The rogue... 3d6. I haven't even touched upon his other bardic music, particularly Fascinate and Suggestion, or most of his spells, or which skills are even maxed, or even those last four feat slots that are open. I find this bard build to be rather verstile so far, while remaining competitive with the other party members. Remember, this bard can still heal, dominate the social scene, and cast arcane spells, as well as Use Magic Device.
psionichamster 07-21-07, 11:48 PM	sure, the bard is super fun to play sure, theres all kind of game mechanics to support being the "behind the party" kind of guy (words of creation RAWKS!, i need to get my DM to allow BoED just for that) but the appeal, allure, and downright sexiness of the bard is simple: you get to be the freaking rock star. simple enough, for me (and i have indeed played a beguiler from the ground up...they are cool and all, and being able to pop off haste's and invisibilities like there's no tomorrow is nice, but you're essentially a spellcasting rogue, who don't stab in the backlike) -the hamster
CaoSlayer 07-22-07, 02:42 AM	If time is allowed, throw in Displacement to take 1/2 as many hits as any other party member. Or go for Mirror Image, to reduce the chance of even getting attacked dramatically. If you lacks time you can use greater mirror image that have a casting time of immediate.
mrpopstar 07-22-07, 04:30 AM	navar100: Take 1 warlock. Add in a dash of Beguiling Influence. Season with a feat to make Diplomacy a class skill. Voila: A better social character than the bard.Having an advantage in a single skill for a single level, at the cost of a feat slot and required use of an invocation, considers you a competitor stronger than one who will maintain advantage, in an effective and efficient manner, in said skill for the vast majority of his levels?
Elana 07-22-07, 04:41 AM	the stink on bards comes from how they d onot keep pace at higher levels. that said, use sublime chord and you will keep up at least, if not excell. Hm, strange, in epic level they get better in epic spellcasting than wizards or druids. (At least by the Epic levelhandbook) Sure, you have to waste 3 feats on improved spell capacity, to be able to cast 9th level spells and so even qualify for epic spellcasting. But the Bards feat list includes epic spell focus, while that of the wizard doesn't This allows the bard to increase his spellcraft rank by 23 every 3 levels, while the wizard can only increase it by 13. After level 35 they begin to surpass the wizard, with the gap constantly increasing after that.
mrpopstar 07-22-07, 03:39 PM	navar100: Take 1 warlock. Add in a dash of Beguiling Influence. Season with a feat to make Diplomacy a class skill. Voila: A better social character than the bard.After checking back on this thread I couldn't help but get stumped by this a second time. Please expound upon your logic because I fail to see how you reached this conclusion. The skills requisite to having “social” effect are Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and to a lesser degree Intimidate and Gather Information. Without feat selection (such as SKILL FOCUS, NEGOTIATOR or PERSUASIVE, which are all very reasonable feats for a bard to select), a bard with a 10 in each stat could effortlessly max Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Local), and Sense Motive, which are all synergistic with each other. By level two the bard is playing with Bluff +7, Diplomacy +11, Gather Information +2, Intimidate +2, and Sense Motive +5. After burning a feat on SKILL KNOWLEDGE: Diplomacy (which lends little to his overall effect, dilutes his efficiency, and confuses his focus), a warlock with a 10 in each stat could max only Bluff and Diplomacy, which would be the most intelligible skills to focus on in order to enjoy synergy in support of our “social” build. By level two the warlock is playing with Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Gather Information +0, Intimidate +2, and Sense Motive +0. With a feat to spare, the bard is superior to the warlock by Bluff +2, Diplomacy +4, Gather Information +2, and Sense Motive +5. Take note that the ranks in Knowledge (Local) also finds synergy with the bard’s Bardic Knowledge class ability, highlighting such a selection as an effective and efficient expenditure of skill points. After considering the warlock’s use of a class ability, he is superior to the bard by Bluff +4, Diplomacy +2, and Intimidate +6; inferior to the bard by Gather Information +2 and Sense Motive +5. Take note that the warlock’s lead is subject to disruption, dispelling, and suppression. Also, he has burned a feat and found little synergy with/support for his other potential capabilities. You have mindfully built a warlock to excel at what I have casually crafted a bard to produce. Your warlock is narrow in focus whereas my bard is broad in his effect, supportive of his other potential capabilities, and efficient in his selection of skills and feats. Basically it took you all of your skill points, a feat, and a class ability to overcome a simply attained, skill-based capability of the bard. The warlock is a better social character how?
mrpopstar 07-22-07, 03:48 PM	navar100: May it also be noted it took a non-core class from one splatbook and a non-core feat from another to even touch what is capable with little effort straight out of the PHB. :)
CaoSlayer 07-22-07, 04:17 PM	navar100: Take 1 warlock. Add in a dash of Beguiling Influence. Season with a feat to make Diplomacy a class skill. Voila: A better social character than the bard. I have a better idea, get a regular bard and take a level of warlock with beguiling influence. Voila: A better social character that any other class with a level of warlock... Or even better, be a bard and take a level marshall for doubling his charisma bonus to social skills AND use magic device... or do both things and take improvisation spell. If you start talking about level dips then the bard should be able to level dip too.
mrpopstar 07-23-07, 02:04 AM	CaoSlayer: I have a better idea, get a regular bard and take a level of warlock with beguiling influence. Voila: A better social character that any other class with a level of warlock...I assumed this such an obvious response that I opted for a more comparative study. Navar100's mention of taking SKILL KNOWLEDGE: Diplomacy lead me to believe the point being made was a class capability comparison and not a level dip. :) Or even better, be a bard and take a level marshall for doubling his charisma bonus to social skills AND use magic device... or do both things and take improvisation spell. If you start talking about level dips then the bard should be able to level dip too.Very good points. :)