Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valis 03-15-06, 04:41 PM	Is it just me or is the core PHB Bard a pretty sucky class. When you look at classes like the Monk or the Druid they get tons of stuff. The druid even gets spell casting and an animal companion. The bard alone gets some spell casting, medium BAB, and some songs that are close to useless. Now I am talking about going from level 1 to 20 not branching off into some cool prestige class like "Seeker of the Song" or what have you. I believe that the Bard should remain a support / roleplay class but should get some more abilities or something. I have reworked the Bard and will edit the "new bard" in later as I currently do not have him with me. What do you guys think? Am I wrong here? Am I missing the point of a Bard?
Puca 03-15-06, 04:51 PM	I dont think the bard needs anything. They will never be the best, but they make everyone around them better, and they can be second-best in so many places. That, and they are pretty fun unless you really want to be the "star."
Seeker95 03-15-06, 04:51 PM	Since I tend to play a not-over-the-top game, with a 28-point buy, core classes and races only, I find the bard to be quite fair and even. It is fun to play. The problem the bard has with most campaigns in which complaints occur is that the class does not scale as easily as most other classes. It doesn't "power up" in a campaign that allows lots of third party and non-core Feats and spells. If you play the game the way it was built, and resist the temptation to throw more more more (bigger badder faster) non-core material at it, the bard stands up just fine.
Valis 03-15-06, 05:00 PM	Don't get me wrong here I don't think that the Bard should be busting down the door here blasting fireballs and stuff. I have never pictured the Bard as a damage dealer (main source, can be back up dmg). I haven't pictured them as a main spell caster either. However, I have pictured them as a perform artist. They use there talents to bolster other party members or dwindle down the enemy. I just believe that the Bard should be able to use his music for other abilities other than facinate, suggestion and minor bonuses. I am not suggesting that the Bard should be giving the party members a +5 to atk and dmg at level 5 or anything like that. I am saying though that the Bard should be a master of perform and use this perform for various reasons. If we are talking about combat reasons than he should get songs that can take out enemies without actually damaging them, possibly coercing them into something. Maybe make the "suggestion" music eventually turn into "dominate person" and then at like 18+ "dominate monster" or something along those lines. I just personally think that the Bard should have more "music" abilities or perform abilites.
ZeronHitaro 03-15-06, 05:07 PM	Our party has a Bard and I never complain due to the boosts their songs give the party. :-P So people who want their fellow party members to survive play a bard to answer the question.
malignor 03-15-06, 05:27 PM	The bard is a... - competent backup finesse fighter (whip, rapier, light armor, etc.; medium BAB) - capable illusionist - fantastic support character (inspire courage, spells) - superior manipulator (charm, suggestion, etc.) - backup healer - interesting mix of combat and support magic (no spell failure in light armor) - backup rogue (many skills, many skillpoints... hide/move silent/tumble/etc) - weak damage dealer (in magic and in combat) - pretty good combatant in controlling the battlefield (illusions, music, debuffs, buffs) - great source of information (knowledge skills, bardic knowledge) I find the biggest weakness for a bard is facing off against stuff like undead, constructs and miscellaneous mindless things like vermin. Their greatest time to shine is when in a big team, as his support role makes a bigger difference with more people... or when going up against rational people he can communicate with, when his manipulation, trickery and illusion powers are their most powerful.
Nialo 03-15-06, 06:27 PM	I've always enjoyed the "Jack of all trades" flavor the bard has had; not so much the performance aspect. It really is a fun class play, it just depends on the campaign. In a social setting the bard is great, or any time you're in a situation where trickery and subterfuge would work best; not to mention that they still can fight fairly well if need be. Unfortunately Bard has a reputation for being an elitist class, in that most of the people who play them seem to have the "I'm playing a sucky class and therefore the best roleplayer ever!" mentality.
Bruunwald 03-15-06, 07:25 PM	The bard is the best example in the PHB of how and why D&D is a roleplaying game, not a miniatures contest. Things like Bardic Knowledge and charms and diplomacy are very important in my game. Battle is only a part of the scenario.
Valis 03-15-06, 07:32 PM	Everybody has there own way of playing D&D. Some people play it for roleplay, some for battle and some for a mix. I am one of those mix kind of guys. I like about 50/50 on battle / roleplay. I like to roleplay stuff but I also like to kill stuff. I do believe that the majority of the game should be plot, roleplay and character development through roleplay means. However, I do also believe that players like to kill stuff, test out there powers (especially if they have recently leveled up). I don't think that this game was "designed" to be a pure roleplay game, otherwise they wouldn't have put in the levels and the game mechanics and all that time to make your character more powerful. If it were a pure roleplay game then it would just give you basic ideas on what you are and how to play. I like the half and half kind of game style. Thats just me though, your way of playing is not wrong in the least as it is a perfectly viable way of playing. In my own opinion, I believe that the Bard (in the 50/50 game style) should be a little different than the few things it has now. By the way, thank you all for your opinions as it has made me think of the Bard in different ways.
Diyon 03-15-06, 07:36 PM	Hey, if the DM is open-minded, creative bards can pull some pretty devastating stuff. Our party's bard once fascinated a chimera that was supposed to be a big obstacle and then suggested "it find out which head is the best." It beat itself up leaving one head left to defeat. Clever suggestions are fun.
Stev Beren 03-15-06, 08:14 PM	I have a bard - and in the game while he is never the BEST in any given subject he is usually the second best there, and rarely is without something to do. Never feel slighted. ALso, am the Charisma monster, in a roleplaying game, so. .
JulesCARV 03-15-06, 08:47 PM	People look at bards as underpowered because they compare them to sorcerors, and say, "look! They lose 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and no paltry improvements in BAB, hit dice, armor, and skills can make up for that." I think it would be just as valid, though, to compare them to rogues. They lose 2 skill points per level, sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, and uncanny dodge, true, but they gain bardic music, bardic knowledge, and spells up to 6th level. Personally, I'm planning on multiclassing my paladin with a bard (I'll use the Devoted Performer feat to overcome alignment restrictions, though I'll skip the whole, "fall from being a paladin, become neutral good, gain a bard level, go back to being lawful good, take devoted performer" deal implied by the RAW, because that makes the Devoted Performer stupidly arduous to do compared with the Devoted Tracker, Devoted Inquisitor, and Ascetic Knight, and just take my first bard level and Devoted Performer simultaneously, even though without alignment shifts, I really have to do both before each other). Update: It occurs to me that some of the basic points about bards -- that on their own, without the rest of the party, they're not very powerful -- could be applied to artificers. Have you seen a low-level artificer trying to fight by dealing direct damage? Not a pretty sight. ("Let's see if I can roll my UMD check high enough to actually cast magic missile from my wand. *roll* Damn. Well, maybe I'll get a 20+ on my UMD check next turn.") Yet a common view on these boards is that the artificer is the most power class in the game.
Pandaemoni 03-15-06, 09:04 PM	I think the bard is very good at what it is supposed to be. The bard is the ultimate "fifth character" for the party. The bard is also the only class that specializes in being the "face" of a party (having Charisma as its primary stat and having all the social skills as class skills as it does). Add to that that its songs are not really useless. In a melee heavy party Inspire Courage can stack into a very nice bonus on top of whatever direct damage the bard does (at least if you add in all the times the party combatants would have *missed* but for the bard's to hit modifiers). Suggestion also is invaluable...and at higher levels has insane DCs. Consider also, that even at, say, fifth level the bard can easily have a +15 or more in Diplomacy (For example, that's (i) 8 ranks, (ii) +3 for his 16 Charisma, (iii) +2 for five ranks in Bluff, and (iv) +2 for his five ranks in Knowledge (nobility)--it can also be higher, in teh extreme you could raise that charisma to 18, and throw in five ranks in sense motive, being half-elven, and the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Diplomatic feats and the bard's bonus to Diplomacy could be as high as 25 as 5th level, without any magical enhancement.) Also not the effect of the glibness spell that is bard only, and what one can theoretically get away with with a +30 to the Bluff roll. Combine Glibness with Memory Modification (both bard only PHB spells) and bards become true powers in getting their way. If your game is heavy on NPC interaction, then bards can be quite powerful. Admittedly, in a combat/non-intelligent-monster heavy game, bards can wind up working as dedicated buffers and back up healers.
Edymnion 03-15-06, 09:28 PM	Basically, I think it boils down to the type of game you're in. If you're in a hack-n-slash heavy game, then stay away from the bard. It can't compete. If you're in a roleplay heavy game, or a game that has a lot of non-combat situations in it, then the Bard quickly becomes a very powerful character, and often the defacto party leader/spokesman. And something else to remember, the bard does not have to sing or play an instrument to get Bardic Music. Just about anything that makes noise is valid as a source for Bardic Music. If you really wanted to, you could take ranks in Preform (Trash Talking) and Inspire Courage in your party members by ragging on the monster's momma.
Another Gnome 03-15-06, 10:19 PM	The lowly +1 morale bonus to attack and damage has been the difference between life and death for my party's collective butts quite enough times for me to have nothing but appreciation for bards. And that was already before they got further boosted themselves in 3.5. Bards are mainly a party-dependent character, but then again, just pit a rogue vs. bard 1-on-1 and see who comes out on top.
Lord_Cabby 03-15-06, 10:22 PM	I love bards. They're my favorite class. If you are in a roleplay heavy campaign (political intrigue, conversing with NPCs, bluffing opponents, etc.) the bard is one of the best classes. And saying the bard is underpowered by comparing it to the druid and monk isn't exactly fair. These two classes are generally considered 'OVERpowered' (not my opinion, but a lot of people on the boards think so). Like JulesCARV said, it's better to compare them to a rogue, a class that is a lot like the bard in flavor and ability. In fact, in my new Eberron campaign, I'm currently playing a gnome bard :w00t:
Rocketboy13 03-15-06, 10:26 PM	Bards?? Who plays a Bard?? Losers, thats who. Losers. :pbbbtt: (They need a Troll emoticon. ;) )
Board_Rider 03-15-06, 10:26 PM	I hate Bards (although with a passion) and never will play one again. I have in the past and playing second fiddle to the other party members is just boring. I will play a Cleric or Favored Soul as a support character. That is all.
VirgilCaine 03-15-06, 11:19 PM	People look at bards as underpowered because they compare them to sorcerors, and say, "look! They lose 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and no paltry improvements in BAB, hit dice, armor, and skills can make up for that." I think it would be just as valid, though, to compare them to rogues. They lose 2 skill points per level, sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, and uncanny dodge, true, but they gain bardic music, bardic knowledge, and spells up to 6th level. I love bards. They get spells--second best healers in the game, no direct damage spells really, but they get decent BAB, two good saves, good skill selection (no traps, no outdoors skills or animal skills, but *everything* else) AND bardic music and bardic knowledge...
bholdr_mage 03-15-06, 11:46 PM	From what I have read and heard, it seems the PHB II will help the bard, as well as other classes tremendously. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I'd look for more options for the bardic music ability, kind of like the customization of the ranger. I'd also look for more fighter only feats, and many other "level substitutions" as they give options to old favorites. The level substitutions have been fairly popular, at least from what I've read here. Also, bards can mix great magic with role-playing. Thay have plenty of skill points and the illusions and enchantments to back up those bluff and diplomacy checks. In a political intrigue kind of game, the bard is the greatest character one can play.
Parker_W 03-15-06, 11:53 PM	In my experience, the Bard is a tricky class to play, mainly because the Bard is the ultimate support character, and is not specialized in an area. The bard can do just about anything, but is great at nothing, so the bard works well when you already have people in your party that are super-specialized (the damage dealer, the tank, etc), or simply just a whole lot or people in your party and everything has been covered. The bard helps round out a party. Also, the Bard is a really good "role-playing" character and can be really fun for a creative player.
Ut-Napishtim 03-16-06, 09:16 AM	Basically, I think it boils down to the type of game you're in. If you're in a hack-n-slash heavy game, then stay away from the bard. It can't compete. If you're in a roleplay heavy game, or a game that has a lot of non-combat situations in it, then the Bard quickly becomes a very powerful character, and often the defacto party leader/spokesman. I agree. Most games are some sort of combination of the two, which allows the Bard to have his moments without dominating the party. Certainly good to have around, especially in smaller groups without all the specialized bases covered.
Aliquid 03-16-06, 11:24 AM	I hate Bards (although with a passion) and never will play one again. I have in the past and playing second fiddle to the other party members is just boring.Second fiddle? Now don't be silly. A bard can easily play filddle better than all the other core classes ;) Seriously though, I see where you are coming from. Although, in a game where role-play politics and intrigue is important, the Bard can easily be the star player from time to time.
OctoberRaven 03-16-06, 11:27 AM	Bards are great support, and are also good for roleplay purposes. The interaction between the metrosexual human bard Cerodale and the somewhat crude halfling rogue Cade led to some of the best dialouge in the early sessions of the campaign.
DragonDeadite 03-16-06, 11:40 AM	Alright... anyone who thinks a Bard is useless, obviously has never been around a well played bard. I'll tell you this right now, there are demons running around in the game I'm playing (Midnight campaign setting) that all have dazed looks and keep saying "Never trust a gnome..." Not only has our bard talked a Shadow Dragon out of eating the entire party, but he has now just talked a demon into aiding us for the rest of our lives, something the demon didn't want to do but is now bound into a contract to do. The bard is the saving point on all of us being able to fight (+2 attack, +2 damage) and is the very CENTER of the party. If we didn't have him, I'm fairly certain most of us would have parished (more than we already have) long ago. A bard can be a most impressive character, and is going to be the face of the party most of the time, so don't sell them short. They have good spell selections, great abilities, and are very capable of making or breaking the entire game. Long live Kerry the Gnome bard!
DMDaddy 03-16-06, 12:11 PM	Bard's are excellent characters, but you have to know how they fit in. My newest Campaign will have Gnome Bard 1/2 elven Paladin Human Fighter
Seeker95 03-16-06, 12:27 PM	talked a demon into aiding us for the rest of our lives, something the demon didn't want to do but is now bound into a contract to do.You know a demon doesn't give a damn about contracts, right?
DragonDeadite 03-16-06, 12:33 PM	You know a demon doesn't give a damn about contracts, right? Yeah, he thought of that too... if the contract is broken we have the means to bind him back to where we're releasing him from... at least we're supposed to have it. :D Also... there was something about a ring of fire they both put their hands into saying "The deal is done" .... still not sure on what that was!
Bruunwald 03-16-06, 12:58 PM	Bards also create great opportunites for the DM to change up the style of his campaign and think of alternative challenges. Currently we have an aasimar bard, an elf paladin, a human rogue and a gnome wizard. We played our first session of the new campaign a couple weeks ago (session number two in two days). This is the first time in 25 years that I have DMed for a PC bard (though I've had NPC bards in the game before). I have always been a history/background/story monger. The introduction of a bard PC has allowed me to use the player and his character to help get background into the game, through Bardic Knowledge, as well as forcing me to think up new challenges for him to face, such as countering ongoing effects, facing off against non-standard spellcasters, etc. The result was a first session very unlike any we've had before. And he held up pretty well in combat, too. He's smart and sticks with a buddy most of the time. That's the way, you know. A smart player can make nearly every character work in combat. You're not a tank? Then flank. Hey! I think I'll sig that.
Board_Rider 03-16-06, 02:03 PM	Alright... anyone who thinks a Bard is useless, obviously has never been around a well played bard. Eh..I have DMed and gamed with many a person who played bards to a very good "T". One went so far as to write his own songs and play guitar during battles. My problem with the Bard is that he is relied upon to be the party diplomat. Okay, thats fine but a Paladin can do that or even a Cleric. Hell, a Rogue can do it. Party buffs? I will use an Archivist or Cleric. I just find that 4 person parties will be better served with someone other than a jack of all trades. If the party consists of 3 people, then, yeah, a Bard is a good choice.
Diet_Sunkist 03-16-06, 02:38 PM	Bards are tricky, but funny. The key is to specialize in something that no one else has. If you have a thief, well, ignore thief skills for your bard. If you have a party of sorcerers and wizards, then you only need magic missile and the bard spells. I had a party of one bard, two sorcerers, and two half orc fighters. Occasionally, the sorcerers would screw up, and I would need to save their butts. This often involved convincing orc that they were able to fly. This led to several hillarious suicides.
Taluron 03-16-06, 02:56 PM	And something else to remember, the bard does not have to sing or play an instrument to get Bardic Music. Just about anything that makes noise is valid as a source for Bardic Music. If you really wanted to, you could take ranks in Preform (Trash Talking) and Inspire Courage in your party members by ragging on the monster's momma. This is my epic level (24th) bards favorite past time. Only he usually points out the inadeqeacies of the monster itself.
Diyon 03-16-06, 06:13 PM	Our bard tends to be a little cowardly(although this helps get out incredible situations sometimes), when he does get down to do something he finds a way to do it well. He has songs like the "Ode to Surrendering" and the "Ode to Running Away." The surrendering one has stuff from encounters he's been in. He always makes encounters fun and memorable, that's worth it right there.
Zombayz1 03-16-06, 09:49 PM	Ok, Bards can be the coolest class ever. If your like me you need killing music during battle. Bards are good for this. Especially if you play drums, and the DM plays Bass. Bodom anyone?
LordHell 03-16-06, 10:09 PM	I'm currently DMing a roleplay heavy, but with a decent amount of combat game. The Bard player is playing his first game of D&D. He designed his bard around social skills, and is all but useless in actual combat power himself. HOWEVER he has been a centric part of the party, and by NO means a '5th wheel' at all. Many 'combat' encounters have been overcome by him with the clever use of some recon (thanks to the Druid) a disguise kit, and glibness. In one upcoming battle, the bard set an entire army against each other through the clever use of message, glibness, and tongues. They can talk their way almost out of anything. Admittadly during combat he does little except sing songs. He could be acting as a backup healer and getting more involved with spells, but he choses not to. And that is only one kind of Bard. You can build fairly effective combat bards if you wanted. They have quite good buffing spells, can wear armour, etc. Really it depends on what kind of game you play. A good DM should make every character feel special in some way. Even if combat orientated modules a bard has the opportunity to do a hasty diplomacy check, provided the party does a careful bit of recon and planning. Bards excel in social skills, they are not '2nd at everything'. They are 1st in those areas. Paladins and Sorcerers simply do not compare in that regard and make poor substitutes to a 9th level Bard that can get in excess of a +50 bluff check with Glibness.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-16-06, 10:14 PM	Please. Bards, if played with the class'es ability in mind, are the combat control characters. If the encounters aren't immune to mind effecting or an ambush, the bard can either decide who's in the fight, or wheither the fight happens at all. In combat, the bard increases tactical advantage, granting bonuses to his allies while tripping, disarming, holding, charming or dominating foes out of the battle. Out of combat, the bard is not only the party face, but a provider of creature comforts, calling on tiny hut or hero's feast to bolster his allies in body and mind. Bards aren't week, people just trick themselves into playing them weak. I would like more spells per day though >_<
Nithendil 03-16-06, 10:35 PM	The problem the bard has with most campaigns in which complaints occur is that the class does not scale as easily as most other classes. It doesn't "power up" in a campaign that allows lots of third party and non-core Feats and spells. Actually I would argue exactly the opposite. The core bard is sort of on the weak side, but still alot of fun. No real good core bard feats (well, improved initiative, but that is good for everyone), only a couple of bard only spells. Bardic music is ok. However, if you incorporate the complete books, the bard gets bumped up a notch. Still not as powerful as the cleric, druid, or wizard/sorcerer IMO, but they get class specific feats and spells that really add flavor, and increase the fun factor IMO. Who could not have a blast casting Puppeteer? Lingering song, subsonics, versatile performer, and inspirational boost (bard can actually outbuff the cleric finally) add a much needed boost without unbalancing anything. I would like more spells per day though >_< I agree. Spells/day 0. Ouch. (yah, I get the 1 bonus spell :( )
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-16-06, 10:47 PM	The problem is that Bards get balanced feats and spells and lackluster PrCs while everyone else gets POWER OVERWHELMING. 'Hey Fighter, what did you get?' 'Well, I got a feat the massively expands my crit range and another that lets me go sword and board with a frick'n greatsword!" "Hey Monk, what's you get?" "I got a feat that makes my touch magically poisonous a bunch of feats the let me overcome my RP crippling multiclass restrictions and a bunch of awesome new unarmed combat maneuvers." "Hey Wizard, Cleric, what'd you get?" Fighter: "They can't hear you, they've acended to godhood. Truly they are the kings of kings." "Hey bard, what'd you get?" "Well, I got all of about 10 spells from the entire Complete Series and I can reasonably increase the power and uses of my bardic music and I can over come a couple of my limitations... oh and now I can multiclass with the most obnoxious class in the game." *The sound of the cleric laughing shatters a number of nearby buildings.*
Puca 03-17-06, 11:01 AM	My problem with the Bard is that he is relied upon to be the party diplomat. Okay, thats fine but a Paladin can do that or even a Cleric. Hell, a Rogue can do it. Party buffs? I will use an Archivist or Cleric. I just find that 4 person parties will be better served with someone other than a jack of all trades. But the beauty of the bard is they dont have to. In my current party, the existence of my bard means that the paladin, who could have taken on the role of party face, didnt have to. He can devote is skills and resources into being a better tank; and the archivist gets to devote more of his spell-slots to buffs because I can fill the healer role pretty well. I dont think it is best for the bard to specialize, but rather for the bard to make specialization possible for the other party members. They could live without me, but they can excel with me there. You do have a point: we have a five-man group. With one fewer person, the bard might not have been the ideal choice. Two fewer and bard might have been the only option.
ManTimeForgot 03-17-06, 11:16 AM	Who plays a bard?? I do, thank you very much. Honestly, I've found that for most people who claim the bard to be sucktastic the concept of a knowledge check is foreign to them. Sure the wizard gets legend lore eventually, but what are you doing before then to cover all the various knowledge checks to find out about stuff. Do your parties really spend hours upon hours making gather info checks when it takes a bard about 3 seconds to tell everyone the answer? And so long as the party is not completely ignorant of the bard's abilities combat should be fine for a bard. When something gets that glazed over look on its face that = don't attack that monster because its not going anywhere fast. Honestly most monsters don't have that high a will save, and even those that do will have trouble dealing with a bard's perform check assuming sufficient ranks and feats have been devoted to the perform skill. MTF
CaoSlayer 03-17-06, 11:20 AM	ummm, no really... Bards get some excelent stuff from splatbooks... *Arcane strike: at least +1 to hit and +1d4 in every fight, works wonders against the former bane of bards: undead and gollems. *Lyric spell:You can get several extra castings by burning non-used bardic music uses *bardic metamagic: if divine metamagic had the same limit, this one would be better. *heart of the song: +1 to hit and damage >> weapon specialization; +1 to hit and damage for everybody >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>weapon specialization. *Vow of non-violence/peace: a +4 to the DC of non deadly spells means a +4 to the DC of every bard spell. *Battle caster: makes the bard able to cast any spell in mithril full plate armor, no lousy feat at all. *Word of creation: the equivalent to divine metamagic on brokeness, combo it with that spell from c.adventurer and song of the heart for insane bonuses, we are talking about a +4 at level 2, a +6 at level 8, a +8 at level 14 and a +10 at level 20 being able to be used several times a day. *Divine performer: spice the most obnoxious class with the triskter class,a bard with 4 levels of paladin opens the doors of the munchkin heaven thanks to feats like adding your charisma to hit and damage. *Disguise spell: The charm the king in a perform. A dont forget that a bard can benefit from most other feats, with great additions like improved toughness, leap attack, sudden spells (a maximized otto dance means instant win unless mindblanked), wizard slayer and a big etc. with complete books, have become posible to make almost any kind of bard posible, tieing in power with the core classes and surpasing them in every other way.
psionichamster 03-17-06, 11:32 AM	bards are the most common character for myself and my co-DM Dan to play. i've seen 15th lvl straight bard, who controls the battlefield utterly, commanding the tactics of the group and getting them out of the situation alive. then UMD'ing a scroll of Heal, or Mass CSW, and everyone's better. i've seen a ~8th lvl bard talk his way into and out of so many IG contracts and agreements, he had to hire a lawyer, simply because he couldn't play the "i make money" and "DnD" games simultaneously. currently there's a 7th lv bard/2nd lvl Wilder in the party, who sings, heals, lies, cheats, steals, and gets the group most of their jobs. she's also the thrall/paramour of the telepath/thrallherd in the party. none of these characters could really excell on their own. (maybe the 15th lvl bard, but who gets to that lvl alone?) they do, however, make for amazingly effective party contributions. Please. Bards, if played with the class'es ability in mind, are the combat control characters. If the encounters aren't immune to mind effecting or an ambush, the bard can either decide who's in the fight, or wheither the fight happens at all. In combat, the bard increases tactical advantage, granting bonuses to his allies while tripping, disarming, holding, charming or dominating foes out of the battle. Out of combat, the bard is not only the party face, but a provider of creature comforts, calling on tiny hut or hero's feast to bolster his allies in body and mind. Bards aren't week, people just trick themselves into playing them weak. I would like more spells per day though >_< this sums up the use of a bard pretty succintly. i agree wholeheartedly. namaste' the hamster
grrrrrr 03-17-06, 11:34 AM	It's strange that most people think of these sorts of "X Class Sucks/Rocks" in terms of a single class. Multiclassing is the way to go with the Bard. I've played a Bard 7/Wizard 14 (from 1st level to epic, quite a ride) and he's awesome. There are lots of other combos that work to boost whatever your play style is. Want to boost your fighting skills, HP, and feats? take levels of fighter. Worried about losing your precious HP in extended combat? choose cure spells from the bard list or take a couple of levels of cleric. Want to generally increase your versatility? take wizard levels (and use your charm to build up your spellbook) Want raw firepower? Take sorcerer levels to get the spells that kill. Lately, there have also been feats and PrCs that provide other ways to use your bard music uses for entirely different purposes (such as boosting spell DCs). If you're concerned that you're going to miss out on gaining more bard music uses because they're class level dependent, then invent your own "whatever class + bard levels stack for the purpose of determining bard music" feat, in line with Ascetic Rogue or Devoted Performer type feats (i think those are examples, i don't have my stuff with me right now). Or tack it onto the new PrC you're going to invent. Left out of much of the discussion is that bards don't necessarily need to be on the front line, or any other line, if the fight never takes place because the bad guy is now your best friend. personally, i loved my Bard/Wizard, because he could do so much. He wasn't getting all the best high level spells or the ultimate power of music, but there wasn't much that he couldn't do fairly well, esp. when he got to higher levels. and he always had the personal charm to get what he didn't have from NPCs who did. Multi-classing with Bards can really increase a character's flexibility. while it's rarely the case, multi-class bards would make excellent solo adventurers for lots of reasons, but having healing spells is priceless. if your bard has brew potion, he can bottle that healing power too.
Lucan_Desmond 03-17-06, 11:57 AM	I've played a bard on 2 seperate occasions and on both occasions I was the most useless person in the room. The problem however did not stem from my class, but rather from the campaigns that all the people I know run. I'll give you a synopsis of the campaign: Dungeon, boss, treasure, dungeon, bigger boss, bigger treasure, pretend to roleplay by haggling with the mayor for more money when we crawl through his dungeon, kill the boss inhabiting it, and collect the treasure~! Most monsters are undead... the others are constructs. I sang during battle and gave everyone their +1 to att. and dmg. and the whole party went: "Thanks... is that all you can do?" Then I tried to deal damage... rapiers don't do much to things with DR and are immune to crits.... and I don't have enough spells to be a dmg dealer like a sorc or wiz. In conclusion: the experience was unfulfilling to say the least. Once again however I would like to point out that it's not because I was a bard, it was because my DM never gave me a chance to play a bard. So I still believe bards are an excellent class, they just have to not be put in a campaign where every other class is a better choice.
Nephlite 03-17-06, 12:21 PM	I've played a bard on 2 seperate occasions and on both occasions I was the most useless person in the room. The problem however did not stem from my class, but rather from the campaigns that all the people I know run. I'll give you a synopsis of the campaign: Dungeon, boss, treasure, dungeon, bigger boss, bigger treasure, pretend to roleplay by haggling with the mayor for more money when we crawl through his dungeon, kill the boss inhabiting it, and collect the treasure~! Most monsters are undead... the others are constructs. I sang during battle and gave everyone their +1 to att. and dmg. and the whole party went: "Thanks... is that all you can do?" Then I tried to deal damage... rapiers don't do much to things with DR and are immune to crits.... and I don't have enough spells to be a dmg dealer like a sorc or wiz. In conclusion: the experience was unfulfilling to say the least. Once again however I would like to point out that it's not because I was a bard, it was because my DM never gave me a chance to play a bard. So I still believe bards are an excellent class, they just have to not be put in a campaign where every other class is a better choice. You should have tried to fascinate the boss. It will rarely make the check unless will save is very high. And since combat doesn't start till party members attack (tell them no) he will do your bidding with a well placed suggestion. Unless boss is immune to it like undead or constructs:were all the bosses not alive?
Thorak 03-17-06, 12:24 PM	Got to agree with Vaal. Even more so, in some cases. A bard, in the right hands, is ridiculously powerful. The problem is that the power isn't flash-bang explosive power, it's subtle. But a Bard can single-handedly defeat entire encounters with a single use of his Bardic Music ability, as long as he gets initiative, and given his illusion spells, this isn't as hard as you might think. Fascinate, with a DC so high nobody saves on less than a 20, and then rapid-fire Suggestions with as high a DC as any character his level can get (it matches the DCs for a Wizard or Cleric's top-level spells at that level). I've posted the math before, but a typical level 20 Bard, without getting anything beyond the DMG's items, has about a 30% chance of defeating a CR 24 Red Dragon. And that's only so low because of the SR. Without it, you'd be looking at 90%+. And considering the cost, here, is a single round and one use of a 20/day ability, it's not a big cost to the Bard, either. Fascinate and Suggestion are so obscenely powerful that I'd give a bard even odds at defeating any similar-level opponent. We had a debate thread on this a while ago, and the guy built a Cleric specifically to defeat a bard, high will saves and all that. And when he realized that he'd still need a 20 to save against the Fascinate, and a 60+% chance of losing to a Suggestion after that (the Suggestion being "Why don't you show me all your cool spells by casting them on that rock over there?"), he just gave up. The last one I recall devolved into the opposing side saying "Well, if I deliberately deafened myself permanently..." And frankly, that's ridiculous. Bards are powerful. Everything else is useless if your mind is screwed up, and that's what bards attack.
Lucan_Desmond 03-17-06, 12:36 PM	You should have tried to fascinate the boss. It will rarely make the check unless will save is very high. And since combat doesn't start till party members attack (tell them no) he will do your bidding with a well placed suggestion. Unless boss is immune to it like undead or constructs:were all the bosses not alive? They were all different types of golems... yea... it was just a bad campaign for a bard.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-17-06, 12:56 PM	We had a debate thread on this a while ago, and the guy built a Cleric specifically to defeat a bard, high will saves and all that. And when he realized that he'd still need a 20 to save against the Fascinate, and a 60+% chance of losing to a Suggestion after that (the Suggestion being "Why don't you show me all your cool spells by casting them on that rock over there?"), he just gave up. The Thread in Question (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4641783&posted=1#post4641783), starting with my laying down my challenge.
RadicalTaoist 03-17-06, 01:13 PM	If you really wanted to, you could take ranks in Preform (Trash Talking) and Inspire Courage in your party members by ragging on the monster's momma. This post wins. Can I see the bard you submitted, Vaal? Did he submit a cleric? (scientific curiousity) To the OP: It's just you. Every party does better with a smartly played bard.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-17-06, 01:40 PM	Can I see the bard you submitted, Vaal? My Bard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4725898&postcount=449) Yade's Cleric (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4725602&postcount=445)
RadicalTaoist 03-17-06, 02:10 PM	And he gave you initiative for free? Bad form. Hell, I could've done better than that. Moot point though: bards are very nice, just right on my balance scale next to psywars. In the meanwhile, Vaal, respond on the Ere Psionics thread on LCC forums.
feartheinvinceblehamster 03-17-06, 02:19 PM	A bard is: "Me pappy always taught me that bards were underpowered" "What are you then?" "I'm a multiclassed fighter/rogue/mage" "that never seemed terribly complicated to you?" "not until now, no" -elan and nale, OotS Seriously though, bards can do anything, just not as well as the person designed for doing it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-17-06, 02:22 PM	And he gave you initiative for free? Bad form. Hell, I could've done better than that. Yup. When you absolutely know your oponent can either pacify you or disappear to attack you at his leisure, initiative is very important. In the meanwhile, Vaal, respond on the Ere Psionics thread on LCC forums. Erk. Sorry, the Angels and Demons article is eating my sole, irionically. I never realised home many of those buggers are in the SRD.
ManTimeForgot 03-17-06, 02:28 PM	Long story short is if a bard catches any class unprepared and its vulnerable to mind affecting abilities, then its screwed. Short end of this is even if you are prepared then only a handful of classes even have a chance of dealing with the bard: those being cleric, wizard, sorceror (assuming he has the right spells to deal with a bard), and a twinked out fighter with awesome initiative, movement speed, and GIGANTIC damage (essentially one of those CO board monstrosities that when it wins initiative nothing really survives). If you can't one round the bard or nullify his abilities, then you are hosed. P.S. I think your bard would have taken his cleric even with the travel domain Vaal. MTF
malignor 03-17-06, 03:29 PM	Someone said that the Bard is only good when a small party exists. I disagree. It's true that a small party makes a bard invaluable (healer, diplomat, buffer, light combat, rogue-ish abilities... jack-of-all-trades covers alot of weaknesses) But in a large party the Bard's support abilities dominate. - Spells: Haste on the party, Rage on the warriors, Good Hope on the party (or inspire courage with Lingering Song feat), Invisibility Sphere, Seeming, Heroes Feats, Mass [fox cunning, cats crace, eagle splendor], Veil. - Songs: The more people, the more that +1/+2/+3 from inspire courage makes a difference. Every time someone just hits, that's you. Every extra point of damage from the song, that's you. Meanwhile you can do any move or free actions while singing (and alot of people forget that), like moving stuff around, loading & readying weapons, and so forth - basically you can be like a squire, prepping & assisting the warriors & casters in combat, while beefing up the damage output of, potentially, a small army of comrades.
Board_Rider 03-17-06, 03:49 PM	Someone said that the Bard is only good when a small party exists. That was me. I meant that statement that a Bard could be better served in a small group as his abilities would shine more. In a 4+ size party many of the Bards "roles" have already been filled by PCs who are more focused in that area. Instead of a Bard I have seen people multiclass to offer a more versatile support character. Rogue/Sorcerers, Ranger/Incarnants, Archivists and even Rogue/Clerics can do what the Bard can do via spells or through the use of items. While I agree that the Bardic music is nice at higher levels, IMO, it simply fizzles. Hell a high level Cleric can burn a Bless if they really need the bonus and can fight better than the BArd can. Of course this only my opinion based upon what I have played and seen played. Any character can be a diplomat or adventurer gatherer.