Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MangleMart 08-08-07, 04:44 AM	In the latest D&D podcast Dave and Mike slam the bards, and mention dreaming of being able to completely re-work them. I've never played a bard in 3rd edition, and I was wondering what the problems with them are. any help?
DM Zoc 08-08-07, 05:01 AM	The bard is really a generalist. They can do anything (sneak, fight, cast, heal), but they can't do anything really well. Because of the nature of ability scores and limited feats, characters are generally much, much more powerful when they can specialize in one thing. For example, rogues try to maximize their Dexterity; that one stat is all they need to be really effective. They can take a feat (Weapon Finesse) so that Dexterity does everything for them: to hit, AC, and most skill checks. Likewise, a wizard can focus entirely on Intelligence, and it increases his number of spells and the save DCs for those spells; he doesn't need Strength, or really Dexterity, and definitely not Wisdom or Charisma. Bards need everything (except possibly Wisdom). They need Strength for damage (no sneak attack to augment this), Dex for AC (no proficiency in heavy armor) and for skills, Con (to make up for the sub-fighter hit die), and Charisma for their spells. Even if they choose to focus on one aspect, like combat or spellcasting, they will still be significantly below par in that task as compared to a class designed for it.
Grogmir 08-08-07, 07:02 AM	DM Zoc – is pretty accurate in his analysis of the problem with Bards. He fails to mention one point though. BARDS ROCK! I must admit that I like the more interesting abilities you get when playing a NWN2 bard. Grogmir.
TheMonk 08-08-07, 07:13 AM	Likewise, a wizard can focus entirely on Wisdom, and it increases his number of spells and the save DCs for those spells; he doesn't need Strength, or really Dexterity, and definitely not Wisdom or Charisma. I believe you mean intelligence. That's the ability score that makes their spells more powerful :)
Errant 08-08-07, 07:25 AM	In my experience bards suffer because most classes focus on combat, leading to most modules/games being combat focused, and the bard is at his best out of combat. You've got to have the right DM, companions and/or adventures to get the most out of them.
Evilclone 08-08-07, 08:01 AM	When you choose to play a bard you also have to choose where to specialize: combat, stealth, spellcasting. You can do pretty well in what you specialize and quite well in the other things, finally you can get a PrC to further improve your specialization. You can't know the bard versatility and power until you play one.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 10:08 AM	I have always thought that a Bard's true strength should be his music. It's the defining ability of this class and this is the only class to get it (non-PrC). The big problem with Bard's is that they have been poorly implemented in D&D and it takes a variety of Feats, Spells, and Items from a stack of different books in order to capitalize on their music. The best example of what I think a Bard should be comes from Everquest. You were always a welcome addition to a party because you could radically boost your groups fighting ability, debuff the enemy, provide elemental protection, and most importantly DECREASE DOWNTIME. Why don't Bards have a decent rejuvination song in their class abilities? A song that provided Fast Healing 1 at low level and increased up to +5 at level 20. Where is the harm in that? IMO, Wizards does need to revamp the class, and one of the first things I would do is get rid of their spell casting and simply focus on their Bardic Music. What an amazing class this could be if they would do that. I would increase the uses/day to make up for the loss of spells and allow song "twisting" (playing more than one song at a time) at higher levels.
rilem 08-08-07, 10:19 AM	In the latest D&D podcast Dave and Mike slam the bards, and mention dreaming of being able to completely re-work them. I've never played a bard in 3rd edition, and I was wondering what the problems with them are. any help? I notice that Dave and Mike couldn't actually come up with any specific problems with the bard. They just seemed to like bashing it. So, despite their WotC credentials, there's no reason to give them any more credence than any other "Bard Sux!" loudmouth on this topic.
CaoSlayer 08-08-07, 10:23 AM	well, while I dont find any trouble with the bard powerwise I would like to have the class redone. The reason is that seems that spells and bardīs songs are the same thing and so I would like to see bards with one feature either spells with a clear music flavor (actually the only thing that hints bard spellcasting to be music based is that cant be silenced) by just removing the bardīs songs and adding them as bard only spells or by having no spellcasting at all but with way more variation of bardic music available, talking about learning a brand new song every level. I also once suggested to turn bardic songs into invocations since warlocks and bards are very alike and makes sense to have unlimited music per day. But I repeat, rulewise bards are fine and ever overpowered like the rest of pure spellcasters. -------- By the way, bards arent less powerful in a 100% dungeon based game since spells like dominate person or suggestion works great on your typical evil minion.
Grogmir 08-08-07, 10:26 AM	Riftweaver I agree – Music all the way. Allow two songs (without the current obseruce feat) remove spells casting and include Aura’s and Songs. In fact The healing ability plus the Damage reduction (ironskin) chant can be seen in the NWN2 Bard which I mentioned before that I like. Still like the current Bard though. Grogmir.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 10:30 AM	The thing is it's not that Bards suck, per se, it's just that there are other classes that do almost everything that they do better than them. The only notable exception to this is their music, which can not be duplicated by any other class. If you want to maximize your spell casting ability, why would you bother playing a Bard? Just play a Wizard or a Beguiler. If you want to deal ranged damage, play a ranger or fighter. If you want to deal mellee damage, play a fighter or barbarian. If you need someone to open locks and search for traps, well you might as well play a rogue. The thing is, you can't play music and swing a sword/fire an arrow/cast a spell at the same time, and since there are really no good songs to play while out of combat, what's the point of playing a Bard unless you are trying to get the most out of their music? Don't get me wrong, I love playing a Bard, they are one of my favorite classes. I always optimize my Inspire Courage (easy to get +4/+3 at 3rd level) and use Diplomacy and Suggestion to my parties advantage. I do feel, however, that the class needs some attention.
rilem 08-08-07, 10:39 AM	The thing is, you can't play music and swing a sword/fire an arrow/cast a spell at the same time Yes, you can. From the SRD: Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. I don't see "swing a sword" or "fire an arrow" on that prohibited list. So some music, like inspire courage, are just fine to use while fighting (as long as you're smart and make a singing bard, not a harp-strumming one). There's also a feat in Complete Mage that lets you cast spells while singing. I think a lot of people who complain about bards really don't understand the rules about them. Do Mike and Dave? It's hard to say, because they didn't provide any details.
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 10:51 AM	There's even a feat, Song of the White Raven, that lets you initiate IC as a swift action, so you can get right to the face-bashing part. Bard with like, 4 or 5 minor allies (Summoned or gained like in Red Hand) is a monster.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 10:59 AM	Your right, I was thinking of the Bard I am currently playing who is optimized for Inspire Courage. I didn't waste any Feats on cambat abilities and I use the best instrument I can get in order to benefit my party. My mistake, singing Bards can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. The Melodic Casting Feat from Complete Mage is definately a must-have Feat for a Bard (kind of like Natural Spell for a druid), but it just serves to emphasize my point that the Bard class needs additional Feats to be viable.
rilem 08-08-07, 11:06 AM	That's true, the bard does need feats to really work — but really, even the druid loses a lot without natural spell (they're still crazy powerful, though). My point would be that these feats are available; the bard has arguably been helped more than any other core class by splatbooks: Devoted Performer, Song of the White Raven, Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance, Virtuoso, Sublime Chord — you can't take all of them, but even a few help a lot.
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 11:13 AM	I would say so as well. Melodic Casting is nice enogh, but it's really not as good as Song of the White Raven if you're an IC kind of bard, since that first round of bashing counts. If you're more of a casting/cover-other-PCs kind of bard, then Melodic Casting is really great, but since you're optimized to cover for others, it shouldn't really surprise anyone that you're not as good as they are. With Magic Item Conpendium niceties like Badge of Valor and Crystal Echoblade, IC-type Bards can really bring on the pain. +16 to hit and 1d8+10 damage plus Mountain Hammer at level 7? Don't mind if I do! Oh, I'm boosting everyone else, too? Well, that's cool...
Jaxgaret 08-08-07, 11:52 AM	Bards are probably the single class that benefits the most from adding non-Core material to your game* - as mentioned above, specialization is the path to combat power in D&D, and the Core Bard is simply too much of a generalist to specialize well. By the by, I love the Bard class. They are (unintentionally) my most frequently used class as I love having the versatility, nigh-free party boosting power, skill array, and decent spellcasting (which gets better with PrCs) that Bards bring to the table. * Note that I am not saying that Bards are the most powerful class when including non-Core material; merely the class that gets the most benefit over their Core incarnation when including non-Core material.
CaoSlayer 08-08-07, 12:13 PM	the truth have been spoken, while the bard by the class entry seems weak each feat you take and every item you craft or buy makes the bard way stronger. The thing is that bards just using core rules can outdamage a fighter thanks to bardic music and buffs like haste, yes, he needs rounds but every round "wasted" is used for buffing his pals so the benefit is inmediate.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 12:23 PM	Don't get me wrong guys, I optimize the heck out of my Bard using whatever splatbooks I have access too. They can be very powerful when you tack on a couple PrCs and a half dozen Feats, but then what class doesn't benefit from that? You are all making my point when you say that: the bard has arguably been helped more than any other core class by splatbooks and Bards are probably the single class that benefits the most from adding non-Core material to your game EXACTLY!!! They benefit the most because they lack the most as a base class. The point of this thread is to discuss the possible revamping of the core Bard class and whether or not it is necessary. While I agree they are fun and they can be powerful if optimized, I still believe that Wizards missed the mark on the core abilities of the Bard. The question is do you feel that the Bard is fine the way they are (not talking about non-core stuff here) or do they need an overhaul? Again, my take is they need to do more with Bardic Music to truly define their place in a party of adventurers and less of a jack-of-all-trades that can be replaced.
rilem 08-08-07, 12:42 PM	EXACTLY!!! They benefit the most because they lack the most as a base class. That's a fine counter-argument, but really that's not altogether true, either. A core-only bard may be a fifth wheel, but it's a REALLY GOOD fifth wheel. They work fine as archers/buffers, occasionally dropping an Irresistible Dance on somebody. After a few levels, I'd prefer to be a Bard than a Monk, for example. And splatbooks and power-boosting feats are part of the game. A druid would have a real hard time being a nightmare without natural spell (which is core, but belongs in a splatbook). Sorcerors badly need splatbooks to prestige-class out of being sorcerors. My splatbook point was that — perhaps because of their perceived shortcomings in core — the splatbooks have been unusually kind to bards. Getting 16+BAB, CHA to nearly everything, 9th level spells without sacrificing bardic staples like music, for example. EDIT: Along the music-improvement lines, I'd be interested in a lore secondary ability akin to the Archivist's Dark Knowledge.
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 12:52 PM	On a purely technical level, I think that Bardic Music and Bardic Magic ought to be unified or given an easier to manage system, but then again, I also think that Turning Undead ought to have been folded into Cleric spellcasting, too.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 12:52 PM	Hehe, ok fine. We agree to dissagree then. I guess that my idea of what a Bard should be is a lot different from yours, I simply don't want to play a generalist. I want the Bard to have their own special role in a party; that of the best party buffing/support you can get.
RealSorceror 08-08-07, 12:54 PM	Besides having some of the sweetest prestige class options evar, there really isn't anything wrong with Bards.
Treantmonklvl20 08-08-07, 12:57 PM	The strength of the Bard depends largely on what you expect it to be able to do. Some will tell you the Bard can do everything OK. Be careful of this. A Bard who wades into melee is likely a dead Bard. Bards do some things fairly well. If you want to play a party buffer, an enchanter, a sage, or a diplomatic character - the Bard is good at all these roles. I would point out that the Bard is not necessarily the BEST at all these roles, but is still a strong choice. I can't think of any other class that does all these things well. The Beguiler is the better enchanter, the Marshal is the better diplomat. But the Bard fills both roles and others. If you want a true specialist - the Bard may not be your best choice. Monte Cook made an alternate Bard that had an interesting feel, but it really did suck. I like the idea of giving Bards abilities similar to invocations - perhaps replacing both songs and spells. Just make the Bard invocations music-based and more enchantment/illusion oriented.
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 01:02 PM	Actually, not true. These days, a Bard CAN walk into a melee just fine. He can use Con boosters to help with the hp and defensive magic like Mirror Image or Blur to further his personal defense, using light armor and a buckler to bump the AC up to average. Previously, it would have been a little pointless to do that, since he could just shoot from range and do about the same or better damage, but with Adepts and Echoblades, that's not true anymore.
Johnny_Angel 08-08-07, 01:10 PM	There seem to be a lot of people who think bards aren't very good. I am not one of those people. The bard gets a lot of skill points and a good selection of skills to spend them one. The bard has good saves. The bard (IIRC) is the only core class which can use arcane magic to heal. To be honest, I'm flabbergasted; I don't even know where to begin to defend the bard. All I can say is that it's hardly an underpowered class; in my opinion, it's a very good class if you know what you're doing. Fascinate/Suggestion can be devestating: "I suggest that you lay down and go to sleep." "Ok, now, barbarian, come over here and coup de grace." Even if you have a dm who doesn't allow things like that, at the very least you can fascinate the opponent and then have the rest of your party perform self-buffs until you're ready to fight. Heck, once you reach epic levels, if you take Music of The Gods, nothing is immune to the mind effects of your music. Like I said, I don't even know where to begin. If you allow splat books, the bard gets even better with some of the PrCs. Seeker of the Song is just one example of what sort of power a bard can have. You want to wade into combat as a bard? I believe you can do that with the War Chanter, IIRC. The bard is more than a generalist; the bard is a generalist, but the bard is also a class that can be a specialist in virtually any facet of adventuring that you want them to specialize in.
Treantmonklvl20 08-08-07, 01:23 PM	Actually, not true. These days, a Bard CAN walk into a melee just fine. He can use Con boosters to help with the hp and defensive magic like Mirror Image or Blur to further his personal defense, using light armor and a buckler to bump the AC up to average. Previously, it would have been a little pointless to do that, since he could just shoot from range and do about the same or better damage, but with Adepts and Echoblades, that's not true anymore. Everybody uses Con boosters - meaning the Bard will still have less HP than the other classes. They can buff themselves and then wade in. However, in practice I've found self-buff characters of less use to the party in dungeon-crawls and the like where the melee characters need to be engaging on round 1. The Bard can still provide meaningful support to combat beyond just buffing - ranged support with arrows or a whip - however, far less effective than characters dedicated to it (as you've pointed out) You can make almost any class melee-worthy with enough spells and magic items - it doesn't make them good at it though.
rilem 08-08-07, 01:37 PM	Everybody uses Con boosters - meaning the Bard will still have less HP than the other classes. In core, I'd probably keep a bard out of melee combat. In non-core, a melee bard is going to have levels in either Paladin (d10 hd, devoted performer) or Warblade (d12 hd) or Crusader (d10 plus auto-healing) and possibly War Chanter (d8, plus Inspire toughness for effective d12). They're certainly no worse off in this regard than a Ranger/Rogue, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
Jaxgaret 08-08-07, 01:37 PM	I want the Bard to have their own special role in a party; that of the best party buffing/support you can get. Bard + War Weaver (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=bard+%22war+weaver%22+site%3Aboards1.w izards.com&btnG=Google+Search)
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 01:40 PM	Treantmonklvl20: I think you're out of date with the splats. Some of those melee Bards pack a mean punch, easily on par with an equal level Fighter.
Ian Demagi 08-08-07, 01:52 PM	Since my group plays mostly core & Completes only, bards are pretty low on the power cycle until we played a game were we had a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Druid, Cleric, and Bard. The bards buffing was unreal! He made eveyone so much better at everything! Since everyone was getting so many swings -all those plus 1 & 2's really started to pay off. We gave him a wand of lightning bolts so he could blast something every now and again with UMD, but mostly he just buffed. With the right groups Bards are awesome! Ian
rilem 08-08-07, 01:55 PM	In core, I'd probably keep a bard out of melee combat. Wait, scratch that. Bard8or10/Bbn2/DragonDisciple8or10 works fairly well as a melee-type. Ten to 12 levels of d12 HD take care of a lot, you get nice stat boosts and 3rd or 4th level spells.
Jaxgaret 08-08-07, 02:52 PM	Wait, scratch that. Bard8or10/Bbn2/DragonDisciple8or10 works fairly well as a melee-type. Ten to 12 levels of d12 HD take care of a lot, you get nice stat boosts and 3rd or 4th level spells. That was one of my previous characters :) Bard4/Barb1/DD
Nephlite 08-08-07, 03:47 PM	Wait, scratch that. Bard8or10/Bbn2/DragonDisciple8or10 works fairly well as a melee-type. Ten to 12 levels of d12 HD take care of a lot, you get nice stat boosts and 3rd or 4th level spells. Why Barbarian? Can't rage and cast. You should try Warblade.
MichaelSomething 08-08-07, 04:04 PM	I'm also a Bard fan. Why did the Podcast had to hate on Bards? Bards can be good if you know how to use them. Not every class can be as powerful as wizards and druids. I don't I would want to play D&D if every class was.
rilem 08-08-07, 04:26 PM	Why Barbarian? Can't rage and cast. You should try Warblade. Not in core-only, I shouldn't. The rage/casting thing isn't a big deal, because you're raging and singing (which you CAN do). (You don't have many rages, anyway.) Casting is for before the fight, or in the first round (for haste or alter self), or to provide you with out-of-combat utility, depending on your choices. Barbarian helps with skills, HP and Fast movement. Fighter2 would also work, but really you can get all the feats you want with just the Barbarian levels, as there aren't that many great feats in core. (I would use a fighter dip for archer-bard builds.)
Mojo_Rat 08-08-07, 05:23 PM	I think part of the problem Is people usually judge class power on its combat ability. Recently i made the decision to play a bard, and so far i am extremely pleased with it. I got around the issue of 'toomany skills' not enogh skill points by deciding I wanted to be social oriented. (so no move silently no tumble no hiding) I found by focusing on diplomacy bluff gather information etc. It allowed me to get every skill i wanted and then some without any problems. I have found so far that while i am the weak link on the totem pole in combat once we get into a city i am the strongest person int he party by far. I dont think the argument that 'others can do the social stuff' better is valid either as Many of the spells the bard gets fully support this style of rp. The recent aquisition of a whip in the campaign also allowed for alot of nice combat assistance to other characters.
CaoSlayer 08-08-07, 05:34 PM	saying that the bard is weak because gains great power from feats is like saying that a cleric or a druid is weak because gains a great power from natural spell or divine metamagic. Good class specific feats is a strong point of a class, not a weakness. about the power of a core featless bard Im going to quote a wise man, myself: Rule nš1 when thinking about bards: Bards dont kill, Bards just make others kill for them. People here can give you lots of builds involving lots of splatbooks and level dipping and I in the other hand I can say you that a level 15 bard alone without picking a single feat can make an Ancient Red Dragon cry: Letīs say that you have a normal bard with starting charisma 16. he raised charisma at levels 4,8 and 12 and brought a cloak of charisma +6 and a tome of charisma +1, so bob the bard have a charisma of 26 for a mod of +8. All these items are must have for bards as we all know. Now, bob the bard have his old masterwork instrument for a +2 to perform, a circle of persuasion and 18 ranks, so his normal perform check is 1d20 +31. Now, letīs see that an ancient red dragon have a will save of +26 so the bard have about a 75% chance of fascinating the dragon. If the bard successfully fascinates the dragon now have the chance to try 15 times the suggestion "cry, dragon", each try with a DC of 25, so the chance of not rolling a one in 15 tries of a dragon is about (19/20)^15=46% being so the chance of rolling at least one one is 54%, No bad chance for making a CR23 dragon cry, now think what can you do your typical oponent with a will save of around 17 (12 + cloak of resistance +5) and with a bartenderīs daughter . ---------- Besides the wonders of fascinate/suggestion you get a spell list full of enchantments and a great charisma. Enchantments means people and charisma means people, a good played bard is the one who have an animal companion with two legs and two arms, you can use old plan charm person and diplomacy for a 100% royal bodyguard, dominate person/monster for a bodyguard ever you can use modify memory and implant memories in a fool to make him believe that you saved his life and he oathed to protect your life and if you are good, you can take leadership; there is not excuse for not recruiting a meat shield for the next adventure. --------------- Now inside how to win a fight directly, look at song of discord and confusion, how you can turn the BBEG minions against their master turning the tide of a battle easily, look how such a lousy level 1 hideous laughter can disable anything, look how a bard with improved invisibility and either zone of silence or sculpt sound can cast spells over and over or use a bow without becoming detectable. And when you reach level 16 you can get one of the most powerful spells in the whole book: Ottoīs irresistible dance, seriously, just spend 52k in a maximize rod and you can just take away for whole 4 rounds anything without mind inmunity, including ancient red dragons, no save and just a touch attack. And everything I said is core without using a single feat or level dip. Imagine what you can do with splatbooks, things like being able to sing and cast a spell, using inspire courage for about +10 to hit and damage, starting bardic music as a swift action, wear mithril full plate armor without ASF, cast level 9 sorcerer spells, add charisma to almost anything and more, much more.
rilem 08-08-07, 05:37 PM	Good, I was hoping somebody would repost that one. Tx.
Mojo_Rat 08-08-07, 05:45 PM	Id like to say that Quote CaoSlayer posted was beautiful. Almost enough to make a red-dragon cry even :P
mrpopstar 08-08-07, 06:55 PM	I see more than one person interested in doing away with the bard's spellcasting. I actually enjoy the spellcasting. The appeal of the bard (in my opinion) is his smattering of capabilities. I like his overall flavor of well-roundedness and the inclusion of crunchy bits from each corner of the game mechanic characterizes his versatility. I do agree that the bard would benefit from a few more core options; not so much a power-boost, but a better definition of being. I would like to see the Bardic Knack optional class feature from PHBII as a core mechanic, in addition to Bardic Knowledge. Bardic Knack is a flavorfull mechanic that truly defines the bard as the jack-of-all-trades the PHB coins him. I have allowed players to use Bardic Knack as well as Bardic Knowledge in more than one game and it has proven to be enriching to the player's gaming experience and did not upset balance at all. I would also like to see more core music options. Feats that allow expenditure of bardic music for fast-healing, maintaining consciousness at negative hit points, etc., would find more use as song options. Also, the masterwork instrument options from CAd should be core.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 07:20 PM	Yes, the quote is good, and it was examples like that one that led me to redefine what I thought a Bard should be. The power of Suggestion can not be denied, and I would never try to. This is one of the features I love about a Bard. As I have stated before, I choose to play my Bard as a non-combatant (if allowed I would definately take the non-combatant Flaw) so Diplomacy, Bluff, and Suggestion are a huge part of my character. I have no arguement that these are powerful. Really my only beef when it comes right down to it is that music takes a back seat to spell casting and melee most of the time. I still think spell casting is for Wizards and Sorcerers, music and song should grant the Bard his magic. I would simply like to see the Bard revamped to expand the scope and power of Bardic Music. I still believe the Bard is a great class, and I will still continue to play them just the way they are, but this thread was discussing what we felt was wrong with the class and what the designers should do if they were to start from scratch (as per the podcast). Is there really anyone out there that wouldn't like to see more songs available to the core Bard?
OneWinged4ngel 08-08-07, 07:23 PM	The old fashioned notion that the Bard is underpowered has long since fallen out of style on the CharOp boards. The Bard has substantial abilities and can be built a variety of different ways, though he does have to focus. If you want a generalist who can do everything, the Bard is not the class for you. Clerics and Druids do everything. Anyways, there's bard builts that outfight the fighters, builds that outcast the sorcerors, and builds as sneaky as a rogue, and of course they can be just as manipulative as a Beguiler. A Bard / Warblade or Bard / Crusader with Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration can start dishing out +12d6 energy damage on all attacks *for all party members* for several rounds as a swift action, and eventually get 9th level maneuvers, and a good 600 damage on a full attack. A bard / paladin can similarly get good melee results while giving a very large boost to the party's attack power. A Bard / Sublime Chord can cast comparably well to a Sorceror, and throw in War Weaver and you have one of the best buffers possible in the game. A standard Bard can cover skilled roles, own social encounters, give very powerful buffs (at level 8 you can dish out a good +8 inspire courage if you know what you're doing), and of course use the ever-frightening Fascinate / suggestion combo! Not to mention, you get a handful of quite useful combat abilities, including the "no save, you just lose" Otto's Irresistable Dance. If anything, Bards can be one of the *most* powerful characters in a party when played right, and *dominate* encounters. In point of fact, the "Top Ten Most Powerful Classes" thread on the CharOp boards had lots of people listing the Bard after things like the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Artificer. As for the bard's spells not being music... eh? If it's got a verbal component, sing the spell! Flavor's up to you.
DungeonMogrii 08-08-07, 07:37 PM	well, while I dont find any trouble with the bard powerwise I would like to have the class redone. The reason is that seems that spells and bardīs songs are the same thing and so I would like to see bards with one feature either spells with a clear music flavor (actually the only thing that hints bard spellcasting to be music based is that cant be silenced) by just removing the bardīs songs and adding them as bard only spells or by having no spellcasting at all but with way more variation of bardic music available, talking about learning a brand new song every level. I also once suggested to turn bardic songs into invocations since warlocks and bards are very alike and makes sense to have unlimited music per day. But I repeat, rulewise bards are fine and ever overpowered like the rest of pure spellcasters. -------- By the way, bards arent less powerful in a 100% dungeon based game since spells like dominate person or suggestion works great on your typical evil minion. The invocations sound very good indeed. Picture the bard as the opposite of the warlock: the warlock has unlimited use of his self-only invocations while bards could work in a very similar way but with group affecting invocations. I must work on this.
Riftweaver 08-08-07, 07:46 PM	Yes. 100%. Hit the nail on the head. Unlimited use, expanded scope to replace the loss of spells, ability to play two songs at once at higher levels. I would even make some songs require the use of instruments to function, sort of like a spell component. I seriously think that Bards need some songs to help the party after combat; Rejuvinating Song (Fast Healing) and Travel Song (+20' movement) for example. How about the songs that grant the whole party Haste? Protection from Elements?
Marcotic 08-08-07, 08:31 PM	Well, if a upgraded bard is to your liking, have a taste o' dis (not that I think the bard is in disparate needs or anything, but I'll be honest I love tinkering (Note, can't make tables, but really don't need one.) Bard-Everything same as PHB 3.5 except where noted Add +1 to spells known as soon as a bard gains access to a new level of spell casting. (or if you prefer, allow a bard to cast any spell on the Bard list any-time beguiler style) At 2nd level gain a bonus feat, It can be chosen from: Precise shot, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise. You must have the requisite ability score. (or if you prefer, any fighter bonus feat, exchanging exotic weapon prof, with martial, and requiring all prerequisites) At 4rth level, choose 2 perform skills, those perform skills have the same amount of ranks as your highest perform skill. At 5th Level, a bard gains the Bardic Knack ability found in PHBII in addition to bardic knowledge. Song of Perseverance Su: A bard of 7th level with 10 ranks in perform, gains the ability to improve your allies capacity to prevent serious injury in combat. Your allies (and yourself) within 30 feet who can see and hear you gain 1 hp per round as long as you are concentrating on the song. You can maintain concentration for a maximum of 5 rounds. The effect stops as the same round that the song ends. Every 3 levels there after (10th 13th 16th 19th) The amount of fast healing improves by one. For purposes of who/what this ability can effect, treat it as if it were the Inspire Courage ability. At 7th level, a bard gains Lingering Song, as the feat described in C adventurer, provided he qualify for it. Dual Song Ex: A bard of 17th level or higher with 20 ranks in perform, gains the ability to maintain 2 bardic songs simultaneously, paying the cost in bardic music as usual.
Jaxgaret 08-08-07, 09:51 PM	The old fashioned notion that the Bard is underpowered has long since fallen out of style on the CharOp boards. The Bard has substantial abilities and can be built a variety of different ways, though he does have to focus. If you want a generalist who can do everything, the Bard is not the class for you. Clerics and Druids do everything. Anyways, there's bard builts that outfight the fighters, builds that outcast the sorcerors, and builds as sneaky as a rogue, and of course they can be just as manipulative as a Beguiler. A Bard / Warblade or Bard / Crusader with Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration can start dishing out +12d6 energy damage on all attacks *for all party members* for several rounds as a swift action, and eventually get 9th level maneuvers, and a good 600 damage on a full attack. A bard / paladin can similarly get good melee results while giving a very large boost to the party's attack power. A Bard / Sublime Chord can cast comparably well to a Sorceror, and throw in War Weaver and you have one of the best buffers possible in the game. A standard Bard can cover skilled roles, own social encounters, give very powerful buffs (at level 8 you can dish out a good +8 inspire courage if you know what you're doing), and of course use the ever-frightening Fascinate / suggestion combo! Not to mention, you get a handful of quite useful combat abilities, including the "no save, you just lose" Otto's Irresistable Dance. If anything, Bards can be one of the *most* powerful characters in a party when played right, and *dominate* encounters. In point of fact, the "Top Ten Most Powerful Classes" thread on the CharOp boards had lots of people listing the Bard after things like the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Artificer. As for the bard's spells not being music... eh? If it's got a verbal component, sing the spell! Flavor's up to you. Very informative post. Everyone who thinks Bards can't be good should read this. Thanks for the backup on Bard/War Weavers being one of the best buffers around. :)
Nimloh 08-09-07, 12:28 AM	I like Bards. The one time I played a Bard was in a campaign where our DM made the sage aspect of the Bard something that could really shine. I had plenty to do, was very active in the development of the campaign, and it was one of the best gaming experiences that I've had. I had to travel a lot to do a lot of research. Our campaign was like a massive mystery that had to be solved and it took us to all corners of the globe. A blast! That being said, it think that a Bard can be a viable class if done right. Although I like the Bard as is, I would be very interested in a redesigned class. Someone mentioned the EQ Bard--I would second that as an interesting direction to go. I would like to try to completely restructure how the Bard, and to what end the Bard, uses music. I'm not sure how I would proceed though. I hope some others will try to redesign the class.
DM Zoc 08-09-07, 01:12 AM	I might be missing something. How exactly does someone use Inspire Courage to give +8 to attack and damage at level 8?
OneWinged4ngel 08-09-07, 01:33 AM	I might be missing something. How exactly does someone use Inspire Courage to give +8 to attack and damage at level 8? Normal Inspire Courage at level 8 is +2. You add a Badge of Valor for a mere 1400 gp for +1, then you take the feat Song of the Heart for +1, then you take the feat Words of Creation to double your Inspire Courage, then you take a masterwork instrument from Complete Adventurer for another +1, then you use the spell Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium for another +1. The downside, of course, is that you end up using the swift action for your next turn as well as the one for the turn you inspire courage. And you take 3d4 nonlethal damage. Everything stacks. If I were going to redo the bard, I'd probably use something structurally similar to the Seeker of the Song (Though, obviously, not as crappily balanced, and with a choice of songs every level)
Robespierre 08-09-07, 02:06 AM	I am not much of a power builder, though I do think that Bards are a bit unappreciated. They are the only core class to cast silence as arcane. Simple. I am not much of a straight out combatant, nor does my character go fully for the social side of the game. My character sneaks. Silence on a crossbow bolt. That silence will hit an enemy and prevent them from calling for backup.
Arcane Guyver 08-09-07, 02:43 AM	From what I heard of the podcast, it sounded more to me like they wanted to redesign the bard, not complaining that it was the weakest thing in the game. And that's understandable; look at what kind of 'class features' they get at 1st level - one use of bardic music, bardic knowledge, and 2 cantrips. Hey, at level two they get one more use of BM, plus an actual 1st-level spell! I posted something along these lines in the House Rules board. Basically it was a suggestion to bump up 1st-level spells so bards get '0' at 1st, and bardic music # of times per day equals half bard level (round down) + Cha modifier. I couldn't help but eliminate bardic knowledge in favor of Lore Song, slapping in Bardic Knack as a freebie at 2nd level.
Riftweaver 08-09-07, 02:08 PM	I don't think anyone posting in this thread thinks Bards are weak at all, quite the contrary. I believe they can be very powerful indeed. I am advocating they change the Bard mechanics entirely, not to make them more powerful (because I don't think they need that), but to give them a better defined roll as a core class. That was what the podcast was about, and what this thread was about, although some people mistook creative suggestions to mean "I think Bards suck and here is why". Unlimited use Bardic Music with a larger variety of songs, no spell casting. Essentially take most of the spells currently on their list and make them into Bardic Music abilities that allow the Bard to provide the benefit of said music (spells) to their party for as long as they choose to sing or play. Throw in songs that require the use of different instruments (material components) to allow for some variety or additional effect bonuses.
Marcotic 08-09-07, 04:08 PM	YOu know, given the newer classes as of late, you know the ones with no Dead levels, I wouldn't be surpised if those podcast guys wanted to redo pretty much everything. Which of course is a good thing, DOWN WITH DEAD LEVELS!!!
OneWinged4ngel 08-09-07, 04:55 PM	YOu know, given the newer classes as of late, you know the ones with no Dead levels, I wouldn't be surpised if those podcast guys wanted to redo pretty much everything. Which of course is a good thing, DOWN WITH DEAD LEVELS!!! Spell levels are not dead levels. In fact, they are such full levels for full casters that it takes a *large amount of powerful special abilities* for anyone to consider losing *1* caster level worthwhile. The problem is that some PrCs get "+1 level of selective group of class features," which is totally a horrible paradigm to work off of.
Wolf_Boy 08-09-07, 06:34 PM	I like bards currently as is. (though I prefer bardic knack to bardic knowledge) However I really like this idea of changing bardic music and magic into a single invocation like ability. I love bardic music, I like music magic, and to be honest I've always pictured the magic of music to be different than the arcane magic of wizards and the divine magic of clerics. Arcane manipulates the magic around us. Divine manipulates the magic of belief and conviction (or Gods depending on how you view it), and bardic music manipulates the magic of the heart, the magic of emotions. I prefer the bards casting style. I also dislike things that make no logical sense (mainly per day abilities) such as bardic musics limitation. If it was music based invocations it would fulfill all of these things and would be I think more flavorful and unique. Crap I may have to work on a version of this myself for my games... I love the idea. Though I may make it different from warlock, kind of like spirit shaman. Like warlock, but sense most of the abilities will be boosters and not as strong give them a form of versatility. Make it so that there are different "songs" that can be switched out each day (like spell memorization.) They could learn new songs from "scrolls" like wizards which adds to their versatility. I think I like this idea...
Riftweaver 08-10-07, 07:11 AM	Another convert! I like your description of "music magic", that's what I imagine it to be as well. Something completely different then arcane and divine casting, something that controls the hearts and minds of it's listeners uplifting the spirit to perform the miraculous. Looking at the Bard spell list I picked out a few that stand out with Bardic Flavor... Cause Fear, Charm Person, Lesser Confusion, Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter, Remove Fear, Sleep Animal Trance, Deafness, Blur, Calm Emotions, Daze Monster, Enthrall, Heroism, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Suggestion, Whispering Wind Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Deep Slumber, Displacement, Fear, Lesser Geas, Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, Sculpt Sound, Slow, Speak with Animals Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster, Modify Memory, Rainbow Pattern, Repel Vermin, Shout, Speak with Plants, Zone of Silence Dream, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Nightmare, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion Mass Charm Monster, Geas/Quest, Irresistable Dance, Greater Shout, Sympathetic Vibration Obviously a lot of these duplicate the same effect, just with greater power. It wouldn't be hard to group these all into similar musical abilities and just increase their effects with a Bards level. I didn't include the Cure Wounds series because I see it more as a Fast Healing/Vigor type ability, refreshing people's spirits in between battles. Also would like to see some protection from the elements in the list as well. Of course, Inspire Courage and the rest would also stay. Also, here is another idea, what about a song that could restore/refresh party members spell slots? A meditative melody that allows them to concentrate or comune with their god/nature for say 1 slot per 30 mins played? Something like that anyway.
bugman1964 08-10-07, 07:43 AM	I agree bards do seem weak at first.The first time I ever played a bard I didnt know what I was getting into.When drawing up the character I tried to make him a ranged attack character using point blank shot and such.But once I got into combat I quickly realized that I had much greater power using my music to influence/buff others,and was out gunned compared to the ranger and barb. IMHO I think the bards spells suck especially low level spells.Once I took a few levels of rogue to help his hide skills and give him a sneak attack the bard really came alive.He was a good diplomat,awsome at scoring gold in town playing at pubs, a good combat buffer and when things got a little shade he would run away(sneak into the shadows and make sure his friends were protected w/back stab) If there was going to be a re-do on the bard I would like to see more bardic music songs.The songs are better at higher levels but some of the low level songs are weak or just to few of them. As mentioned before why would he do his own killing when he could help or get others to do it for him,he's more concerned about sitting back and getting the details for his own epic song.Which if you can get your DM to let you write an epic song and have it give some power that could be a fun aspect of the bard as well.(granted I didnt actually write the lyrics of my adventure down my dm just let me say I was playing my epic song.It was a nice mezmorizing song that made people want to give me thier money.)
Roxlimn 08-10-07, 07:54 AM	"Music Magic" could be something of a cross between spellcasting and Maneuvers and Invocations. They could be unlimited use, but occupy actions. For instance, we could have an IC-like effect that Bards can use to hearten their allies, but it's sustained-effect only. If he wants to use his unlimited fear effect music, he's going to have to drop it for a round. Calm Emotions and Enthrall lends themselves well to this "action cost" mechanic. Stuff like heroism could tend more to the Invocation side of the equation, or the Maneuver side of the equation, or the Spell side of the equation, depending. Having said that, I think that Clerics need more of an overhaul than any other class. They're some of the most powerful guys around and still nobody wants to play them. And what is with that Turn mechanic? Ugh.
MangleMart 08-10-07, 09:44 AM	thanks alot!! :)
nastynate 08-10-07, 10:26 AM	So if we were to rewrite the bard, would we want to make bardic music abilities spell-like abilities (similar to invocations), usable at will, that require verbal components and prerequisite ranks in the Perform skill? These spell-like abilities could encompass both the normal bardic music abilities and their spells to some extent. You could have least bard songs (Perform 4 ranks), lesser bard songs (Perform 9 ranks), greater bard songs (Perform 14 ranks), and dark bard songs (Perform 19 ranks), which would grant more powerful songs at the same rate warlocks get more powerful invocation and at the same rate that warriors gain additional iterative attacks. I suppose songs (with durations longer than 1 round), would prevent the bard from initiating another song simultaneously. Songs with a duration of only 1 round (chords?) could be used over and over again (shattering a glass with a high note). Bard songs would have abilities like enchantments, sonic attacks, inspiring buffs, fast healing (maybe), animating objects, and so on. Keep bardic knowledge, hit die, skill points/skills, and proficiencies, and throw in some fey heritage type stuff, and you have the makings of a flavorful, interesting, and useful class, without the clunkiness, and with a specific focus (music) rather than a broad range of under-specialized abilities. Hmmm...:plotting: I might just have to write something up for this.
bugman1964 08-10-07, 11:01 AM	^ that is an awsome class.. Throw in some good buff songs and maybe a few offensive songs,and the ability to advance his songs by buying sheet music, I think I would play the character as a pure class. Absolutely love it.
Qwicksilver 08-10-07, 12:19 PM	I think that the general sentiment on bards is mainly one of three things: #1 Bards suck, their abilities are underpowered and their focus and role in the party is unknown making their class a suboptimal choice when going with the standard 4 or even 5 man party. Their class features, besides being underpowered in themselves, are combined in a way which provides no greater whole. #2 The concept of the bard is not a problem, it just could use some better implementation. The Bard isn't underpowered, and it's a valid role, but their class has been designed in a way that seems to merely combine disparate parts to create a non-ideal whole. #3 Bards are fine both in their intent and implementation. I would like to think that the Noonan and Mearls were both in the area of #2, but who knows? I personally think that bards as a class are fine now and a great role to play, but there will always be room for improvement. Expanding their bardic abilities, perhaps using a more fluid spell-casting system, introducing bardic feats that will enhance their fighting prowess while utilizing their bardic nature, may all prove to help make a better (not more powered) bard. People often say that bards have an identity crisis as a class, and in some ways it's true. I always thought it was amusing that bards are the only arcane casters who get to heal, and in some ways that is perhaps what people speak of when they say that bards are unfocused. With that, perhaps I would agree that bards seem to go in many different directions. However, I never understood why people hated the Bard's focus on being a generalist, and criticized it for being weak. One can say much the same things about Clerics and Druids, in their ability to play many different party roles, and no one would criticize generalization in that instance to be weak or underpowered. (It will be nice to see how this issue resolves itself in the podcasts to come. I feel that Mearls and Noonan only hinted as to their opinions on bards, and I'm really looking forward to hearing them flesh out their complaints)
Arcane Guyver 08-10-07, 12:47 PM	I'm not too sure I'd be happy with a bard who doesn't cast actual spells...
mrpopstar 08-10-07, 03:54 PM	Yeah, I'm still an avid supporter of bards casting actual spells. I've never been a fan of the "magic music" concept and I like that the RAW is ambiguous enough in respect to the bard's spellcasting that one could flavor his spellcasting as they see fit. Someone mentioned re-tooling the bard's spellcasting to match that of the beguiler; I like that. This would allow the bard access to his entire spell list as spells known. You could flavor this however you see fit; he's casting spells or singing commonly known magic jingles. Would this be unbalancing though? The bard's spell list is potent when considered as a whole, and has far more spells than the beguiler's.
Wolf_Boy 08-10-07, 04:41 PM	It seems to me a lot of people like these alternate bard ideas. However, like I said I like the original bard too. I think our uber music oriented bard has a slightly different feel though, and is definitely worth considering being made as the magic of music has shown up time and time again in fantasy, and I just don't think the bard class captures that feel enough. It's too generalized, and their musical abilities just aren't, ehem, inspiring enough to me. Gives bards as is some alternate class features, maybe a little bit of a overhaul, but keep them as is. However, I'm one who thinks new base classes are a good thing (especially when covering new, different mechanics as prestige take to long to get into and don't have enough levels.) Make another base class who's focus is music, but more music as a magical concept, also incorporate some of our concepts into it. Call it a Minstrel or something. The bard feels like too much of a generalist, and magical abilities feel too restricted and uninspiring.
Qwicksilver 08-11-07, 09:30 PM	Yeah, I'm still an avid supporter of bards casting actual spells. I've never been a fan of the "magic music" concept and I like that the RAW is ambiguous enough in respect to the bard's spellcasting that one could flavor his spellcasting as they see fit. Someone mentioned re-tooling the bard's spellcasting to match that of the beguiler; I like that. This would allow the bard access to his entire spell list as spells known. You could flavor this however you see fit; he's casting spells or singing commonly known magic jingles. Would this be unbalancing though? The bard's spell list is potent when considered as a whole, and has far more spells than the beguiler's. Actually to put my earlier post in better light, I wasn't arguing for the complete dissolution of bards as spell-casters, just a different spell-casting system. As a matter of fact, I'm one of those who doesn't believe a bard must always be using music or verbal components in order to cast a spell. For one thing, it's damn annoying and some spells were clearly not meant to be used with a verbal component. Not to mention that a bard can perform in many nonverbal ways or non-musical ways as well. I think that as a class, bards have to include a large branch of archetypes from the foppish court jester, to the rugged writer and epic chronicler, to the learned performer, even the blind orator as homer was. In terms of spellcasting, I feel bards have a good balance as it currently is, but a system which changes the dynamics of the way bards cast spells would help to bring their spellcasting closer to the rest of their class. Let me explain: the bard archetype has the distinction of being one that flows, adapts, and doesn't confine itself to rigidity. In terms of spellcasting, it means that their spells are less about scholarly study and more about a certain knack or talent that merely flows through them. So clearly they are no vancian spellcasters, that's for sure, certainly not clerics druids or wizards. But does spontaneous casting capture the sense of power through raw talent, or magic that just seems to spring forth from you. I don't know. It's a good enough system, but I think there may be something out there that can give a better sense of that specific kind of magic.
BlackHalfDragon 08-11-07, 10:44 PM	right dnd is supposed to be an RPG not heroquest if you want to pwnerate noobs be a fighter or wizard and if you want to be "7eh 1337 $73L7H N1NJ4" be a rogue but if you want a class that can find out information, be flexable to use a healing scroll when the cleric has croaked it, to be able to pull one trick after another out of a bag then the bard is it. Sure they wont stand toe to toe with a fighter, neither will a mage, but they can cast spells or sing music and have more skills than said fighter they cannot go AS stealthy or sneak attack like a rogue but can sing and have spells they cannot cast spells as well as a sorcerer but they can sneak better, melee better and all round perform.
Riftweaver 08-11-07, 11:01 PM	Bard Pronunciation: 'bärd Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Scottish Gaelic & Irish 1 a : a tribal poet-singer skilled in composing and reciting verses on heroes and their deeds b : a composer, singer, or declaimer of epic or heroic verse I've never been a fan of the "magic music" concept and I like that the RAW is ambiguous enough in respect to the bard's spellcasting that one could flavor his spellcasting as they see fit. I have to point out the definition of the Bard as per Merriam-Webster has no mention of spell casting, but it certainly does mention song, performance, and poetry. Now granted, this is D&D and not english 101, but if you look up wizard, sorcerer, warlock, etc. they coincide quite nicely to what we expect. See the thing is, a lot of you are still stuck on the concept of the Bard as we know it in it's current form. It's comfy, it's familiar, and we are all used to it. But less than a year ago none of us would have conceived of a fighter with maneuvers and stances either, and who here would say the Tomb of Battle hasn't completely changed the way melee is fought for the better? Dungeons and Dragons is a dynamic game, it has undergone massive changes in it's mechanics over the years, and it is still evolving. The Bard has never felt like it's own unique class to me, but a bastardization of several others. In fact, the only thing that is uniquely Bardic is the music, I am only advocating that they capitalize on that and update this class like they have so many others.
Marcotic 08-12-07, 01:31 AM	Spell levels are not dead levels. In fact, they are such full levels for full casters that it takes a *large amount of powerful special abilities* for anyone to consider losing *1* caster level worthwhile. Looking at the newer spell casting classes, those spell casting classes have both a more narrow focus in spell selection, but more class features. Take for example wizard and a beguiler. When it comes to spells, the wizard has many more that he could know, but the Beguiler, since it has a parochial spell focus, has many more class features above and beyond his spell casting. I think that, with a few exceptions, the bard spell list is narrow enough to allow them more class features above and beyond there spell list, like a beguiler, especially considering there inability to truly fulfill the jack of all trades part he was assigned to (namely the job of melee fighting, at least in the "traditional" sense)