Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leress 04-01-08, 01:12 AM	Barrist Trickster http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/fantasy-earth/art-006.jpg "With a flick of the wrist is all that is needed to turn the tide of battle" - Niddion Swant, Gnome Barrist Trickster HD: d8 Skills: Choose ten Skp/level: 6+int Saves: Fort Good, Relfex poor, Will good Bab: Good level, benefit 1 Bonus Feat, Spellcasting, Trickster Knack 2 Summon familiar, Eschew materials 3 Bonus Feat, Ace up the sleeve 4 Magic Scroll, Ranged Expertise 5 Bonus Feat, Tricky Style +2 6 Skill Mastery, Natural Skill 7 Bonus Feat, Gallant Nature 8 Skill Mastery, Forced Swiftness 9 Bonus Feat, Tricky Style +3 10 Skill Mastery, Studious 11 Bonus Feat, Eschew Foci 12 Skill Mastery, Natural Skill 13 Bonus Feat, Tricky Style +4 14 Skill Mastery, Stalwart 15 Bonus Feat, 16 Skill Mastery, Steadfast 17 Bonus Feat, Tricky Style +5 18 Skill Mastery, Natural Skill 19 Bonus Feat, 20 Skill Mastery, Big Joker Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, all armor and all shields (including tower shields) Starting Gold 6d8x10gp Spellcasting: As Adept and add universal spells to the list. Trickster's Knack (Sp): Gain Ghost Sound, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, and Message at will as a swift action. Summon Familiar: as Wizard Bonus Feats:At every level, the BT gains a bonus feat. He can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a general feat. The BT must still meet all the requirements for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums. Ace up the sleeve (su): You can channel divine energy into increasing combat ability. As a swift action, you can "lose" an orison to gain a +3 to damage rolls and +10' enhancement bonus to movement until the start of your next turn. Tricky Style (Ex): In any round when you move 10ft or more, you gain a comptance bonus to Saving throws, AC, spell DC, or Attack equal to your style bonus until the start of your next turn. Skill Mastery: The BT becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a skill. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. Gallant Nature (Ex): At 7th level, a BT has a persuasive way of gaining favors from the aristocracy. A BT can reroll a Diplomacy check once per day, but only when attempting to influence the attitudes of nobility or royalty. A BT must take the result of the re-roll, even if it's worse than the original roll. See Diplomacy on pg. 73 of the Player's Handbook Seduction (Ex): At 6th level, a BT has a lascivious way of acquiring knowledge through less than diplomatic channels. A BT gains an additional use of the Bluff skill called seduce to learn secret. The BT can use charm, flirtation, or seduction to learn a coveted secret that is known by a nonplayer character. In order for this iteration of the Bluff skill to work, the non-player character must find the BT physically attractive and be in a position to actually know the secret in question. There are five kinds of secrets that can be learned with a seduce to learn secret check . The fewer people that know a secret, the greater their loyalty to keep that secret. Secret DC* Example Common 10 Password told to the city guard, known by 16 or more people Uncommon 20 Identity of thieves' guild leader, known by 9 to 16 people Valuable 30 A merchant ship hauling exotic goods, known by 5 to 8 people Deadly 40 Plans to invade a foreign land, known by 3 to 4 people Unutterable 50 The mental disability of a king, known by 3 or less people *The DC assumes that the nonplayer character is indifferent. The Bluff check is modified by -20 if the NPC is hostile, -10 if the NPC is unfriendly, +5 if the NPC is friendly, and +10 if the NPC is helpful. A typical seduce to learn secret check takes 1d4+1 hours and requires seduction. If the check succeeded by 10 or more, the attempt takes 1d4+1x10 minutes and only requires flirtation. If the check succeeded by 20 or more, the attempt takes 1d4+1 minutes and merely requires charm. Retries are not possible as the target becomes too suspicious. At 9th level, a BT gains a +1 bonus on seduce to learn secret checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 13th, 15th, 18th, and 19th level. Magic Scroll: At 4th level you receive a magic scroll. You can scribe any spell from the BT's spell list without spending xp. The scroll only holds one spell at a time. Casting a spell from this scroll gains a +3 CL and +3 DC. Once the scroll is used you must wait a day before you can scribe another spell onto it. If the scroll is lost or destroyed then a new one will appear after 24 hours ready for use. If the old scroll is recovered than the new one disappears. Ranged Expertise: When using an attack action or full attack action with a ranged weapon, the character can take a penalty of as much as –5 on the attack and add the same number (up to +5) to his or her Armor Class against either ranged or melee attacks. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until the character's next action. The bonus to the character's Armor Class is a dodge bonus. Forced Swiftness: You can run when the armor you are wearing or the amount of gear you are carrying normally would prevent you from running. Eschew materials: You gain Eschew materials as a bonus feat ESCHEW Foci: You can cast any spell that has a focus component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes an attack of opportunity as normal). If the spell requires a focus component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the focus component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal. NATURAL SKILL: Choose a skill with Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom as the key ability. You have an innate talent with that skill. You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving that skill and a +3 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws (if Constitution is the key ability), or a +3 bonus on all Reflex saving throws (if Dexterity is the key ability), or a +3 bonus on all Will saving throws (if Wisdom is the key ability). When you gain Natural Skill multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new saving throw. STALWART: You may sleep in heavy armor without becoming fatigued and lessen the armor check penalty of any armor you wear by 1. STEADFAST: You are immune to any effect that causes the dazed condition, but are treated as dazed whenever you would normally be stunned. STUDIOUS: You only need 4 hours of sleep to gain the benefits of a full night's rest, which includes clearing your mind for spells and healing. Big Joker (Ex): Once a day instead of gaining the tricky style bonus for a round you gain it for 1 round/level. Any other tricky styles that are done during this time only last one round. So what do you think?
bkdubs123 04-01-08, 01:45 AM	Is this class based on some sort of video game or anime or cartoon concept(s)? I ask because it is among the most weirdly focused classes I've ever seen. It casts spells, it fights with full BAB and the best proficiencies, it is highly skilled and has a skill list of the player's creation, it then has really odd social interaction bonuses (that seem rather minor), and it also gets tons of bonus feats. WHAT IS IT?! Upon first look it appears to be just way, WAY, WAY too much. It seems to get a feat every level, it has full BAB, full spellcasting, tons of skills and skill points, it casts wearing full armor, and it has a bunch of minor fluff oriented abilities which grant further bonuses in unique situations or in social encounters. Basically it seems like it does EVERYTHING really freaking well. Compared to a Factotum, the BT seems to blow him out of the water in terms of power level and EVEN versatility which is the one place Factotum is supposed to shine brightly. My biggest gripe about the class is that it succeeds in doing everything very well, in being one of the most versatile classes ever, but on top of that it has its own quirky, really specialized abilities which seem to enforce a flavor to it.
ciaran 04-01-08, 02:06 AM	I wondered that too. What is it?
bkdubs123 04-01-08, 02:57 AM	This is what I see: Take 99% of the Fighter class, tack on an Adept's spellcasting, tack on more skills, a much better skill list, and much more skill points, tack on the very handy Ace up the Sleeve and Tricky Style features, and finally tack on a TON of weird elven/fey social grace abilities/feats which make the class better in social situations and evoke an odd flavor of quirky/tricky/sexy style/ancestry. Nothing about the class makes any of its features make sense together (Warrior - Full BAB, best proficiencies + Expert - highly skilled and tricky + Adept - limited spellcasting, with a decent spell list and full caster level). Did I miss anything?
ShadowGuard 04-01-08, 07:20 AM	Hmmmm, Its April and its the First Hmmmmm:confused: This class is great and I hope you have fun balancing it, Great name by the way.:)
StevenO 04-01-08, 01:29 PM	I'm so glad this was posted April 1 so it can easily be written off as a joke.
Leress 04-02-08, 02:09 AM	Is this class based on some sort of video game or anime or cartoon concept(s)? I ask because it is among the most weirdly focused classes I've ever seen. It casts spells, it fights with full BAB and the best proficiencies, it is highly skilled and has a skill list of the player's creation, it then has really odd social interaction bonuses (that seem rather minor), and it also gets tons of bonus feats. No, it is not based on any cartoon, anime, or game. I was something milling around my head for a couple of weeks. WHAT IS IT?! It is a base class that is very eclectic in it's abilities yet isn't too powerful. It is a lot of odds and ends making a class that can hopefully pull little tricks and what not to aid him/her self or the group. Upon first look it appears to be just way, WAY, WAY too much. It seems to get a feat every level, it has full BAB, full spellcasting, tons of skills and skill points, it casts wearing full armor, and it has a bunch of minor fluff oriented abilities which grant further bonuses in unique situations or in social encounters. Basically it seems like it does EVERYTHING really freaking well. Compared to a Factotum, the BT seems to blow him out of the water in terms of power level and EVEN versatility which is the one place Factotum is supposed to shine brightly. Since it has up to 5th level casting and the bonus feats can only go so far, to really take advantage of all of that you would need high numbers in multiple stats. The way it does get crazy is if you start with skill abuse and that is more to with the skill than the class itself. Also if it does blow the Factotum out of the water that is good. My biggest gripe about the class is that it succeeds in doing everything very well, in being one of the most versatile classes ever, but on top of that it has its own quirky, really specialized abilities which seem to enforce a flavor to it. It doesn't do everything well, it is just good at a lot of things. This is what I see: Take 99% of the Fighter class, tack on an Adept's spellcasting, tack on more skills, a much better skill list, and much more skill points, tack on the very handy Ace up the Sleeve and Tricky Style features, and finally tack on a TON of weird elven/fey social grace abilities/feats which make the class better in social situations and evoke an odd flavor of quirky/tricky/sexy style/ancestry. Nothing about the class makes any of its features make sense together (Warrior - Full BAB, best proficiencies + Expert - highly skilled and tricky + Adept - limited spellcasting, with a decent spell list and full caster level). Did I miss anything? Look at it more like this (Warrior + Aristocrat + Expert + Adept + quirky ancestry and social interaction), Mind + Body + Soul, and add a bag of tricks. The problem I see right now is it has a lot of little numbers to keep up with. Hmmmm, Its April and its the First Hmmmmm:confused: yeah bad timing... This class is great and I hope you have fun balancing it, Great name by the way.:)Thanks, but I know it is not perfect. I'm so glad this was posted April 1 so it can easily be written off as a joke. Well it is not a joke
bkdubs123 04-02-08, 03:14 AM	Okay, sorry if I sound overly critical. Let me back up and view this with a wider lens. What exactly are you comparing this class to, in terms of effectiveness? This is what I want to know. What classes do you play with when you play DnD, because this will give me a better understanding of where this class fits in with the power and effectiveness of other classes you play with. After you address that, I finally see the concept, but I feel the execution has come across poorly. The concept really is Adept + Aristocrat + Expert + Warrior = Base Class isn't it? Interesting, but you don't quite get there. The biggest problem comes when you try to make the base class out of it, and this is where you get all the weird tricky fey heritage stuff from. I see the "Design Concept" but where is the "Class Concept?" What kind of fluff can you possibly think up to put all of this stuff together? It seems like the perfect candidate for a Prestige Class to me. What we have is a rich kid with a passing skill with weapons, magic, and social grace, who focuses a lot of his attention on the natural world, specifically elves and fey. It just seems like its WAY too specific in its flavor for a base class. My suggestions would be completely eliminate the heritage type flavor from it, and completely eliminate the Aristocrat nature of the class unless you really want to run with that. You have two very unique features - Ace up the Sleeve and Tricky Style and these should be the focus of the class. What this evokes is a sense of a very tricky sort of character; someone very unpredictable. This sort of tricky spellcastery thing doesn't mesh very well, in my opinion, with a heavily armored warrior type. Having some sort of competency with weapons and armor is fine, but it doesn't seem like it should be the class' strong point. This shouldn't be any sort of Duskblade or Swordsage or Warblade. However, once you strip the class down I feel like it encroaches too easily on the territory of the Factotum (which I assume from your above statement you find to be weak). I'll let you decide what to do with that problem. You have to cut down the feats. Sure, none of us like the Fighter, but you've created a class that gets a bonus feat at every level (actually none on one level and two on another). Its just too many feats - I understand that feats, and the Fighter with them, suck, but c'mon, Leress.
StevenO 04-02-08, 07:02 PM	Well it is not a joke In that case the class is obscene and really not worth comment because most who post classes like this can't admit it is broken. So many hate the fighter but before you even start adding the MOUNTAIN of new stuff (spellcasting plus more things than I care to count) you've already improved on that. In exchange for a step down in HD (-1 hp/level on average) you give the "fighter" a MUCH better skill list at they get to pick ten, plenty of skill points to take advantage of all those custom skills, add a Good WILL save, and free up the Bonus Feat to just about anything. I guess I missed the slight change in awarding Bonus Feats which results in the loss of one but that still doesn't make up for everything else you get for that minor cost. One could go on about the class abilities but the only thing this class is good for is an April Fools joke.
Leress 04-02-08, 10:47 PM	Okay, sorry if I sound overly critical. Let me back up and view this with a wider lens. What exactly are you comparing this class to, in terms of effectiveness? This is what I want to know. What classes do you play with when you play DnD, because this will give me a better understanding of where this class fits in with the power and effectiveness of other classes you play with. The same thing I always say, this class should be able to be fight challenges of the same EL and win about 50-55% of the time. After you address that, I finally see the concept, but I feel the execution has come across poorly. The concept really is Adept + Aristocrat + Expert + Warrior = Base Class isn't it? Interesting, but you don't quite get there. The biggest problem comes when you try to make the base class out of it, and this is where you get all the weird tricky fey heritage stuff from. Most of the quirky things add very little power to the class since they are mostly situtional. I see the "Design Concept" but where is the "Class Concept?" What kind of fluff can you possibly think up to put all of this stuff together? It seems like the perfect candidate for a Prestige Class to me. What we have is a rich kid with a passing skill with weapons, magic, and social grace, who focuses a lot of his attention on the natural world, specifically elves and fey. It just seems like its WAY too specific in its flavor for a base class. The aristocrat part is where the natural social interaction come in even if the person doesn't choose diplomacy or other social skills as class skills. I will get the fluff written so it will make it easier to digest and see how it comes together. My suggestions would be completely eliminate the heritage type flavor from it, and completely eliminate the Aristocrat nature of the class unless you really want to run with that. You have two very unique features - Ace up the Sleeve and Tricky Style and these should be the focus of the class. What this evokes is a sense of a very tricky sort of character; someone very unpredictable. This sort of tricky spellcastery thing doesn't mesh very well, in my opinion, with a heavily armored warrior type. Having some sort of competency with weapons and armor is fine, but it doesn't seem like it should be the class' strong point. This shouldn't be any sort of Duskblade or Swordsage or Warblade. However, once you strip the class down I feel like it encroaches too easily on the territory of the Factotum (which I assume from your above statement you find to be weak). I'll let you decide what to do with that problem. Factotum isn't weak, it is mechanically funky and the way abilities come is like a sine wave. The class has divine casting so it wouldn't really matter if a lowered the armor it would still be wearing heavier armors any way. Also some of the bonus feat would be pointless to give the class. You have to cut down the feats. Sure, none of us like the Fighter, but you've created a class that gets a bonus feat at every level (actually none on one level and two on another). Its just too many feats - I understand that feats, and the Fighter with them, suck, but c'mon, Leress. Okay, is any one reading the line about the bonus feats, it is not like the fighters; only general, metamagic, and item creation. The class only gets 19 feats (9 pre-selected). The fighter is just the victim of the main problem (feats don't equal class features). Being better than the fighter isn't much in the way of looking at class balance. The warrior is just a fighter without all the bonus feats and Improved toughness. In that case the class is obscene and really not worth comment because most who post classes like this can't admit it is broken. ...okay, even though it is not. So many hate the fighter but before you even start adding the MOUNTAIN of new stuff (spellcasting plus more things than I care to count) you've already improved on that. In exchange for a step down in HD (-1 hp/level on average) you give the "fighter" a MUCH better skill list at they get to pick ten, plenty of skill points to take advantage of all those custom skills, add a Good WILL save, and free up the Bonus Feat to just about anything. I guess I missed the slight change in awarding Bonus Feats which results in the loss of one but that still doesn't make up for everything else you get for that minor cost. I was not the one who brought up the fighter, I was using it to help get a picture of what the class concept. The casting is very limited and only using UMD cheese will it get crazy and that is because of the skill itself. I will put this to play-test again and show the results that come up. There are a lot of knee-jerk reactions. One could go on about the class abilities but the only thing this class is good for is an April Fools joke. Well it is not a joke as I said before and if you think that way, well thanks for the critique anyway.
bkdubs123 04-02-08, 11:19 PM	My biggest problem is that it does everything. Its weird to me. I don't care if when ran through the gauntlet it only pulls out 50-55% wins. Right now I see absolutely no class concept. You say yourself that most of the quirky things add very little power and are highly situational. I find it to be true as well - so why are they even there? They only serve to clutter up the table and the class itself with tons of mostly useless abilities/bonus feats. Find the concept. Define it for me. Then work from there. Right now I just see a very unsuccessful Adept + Aristocrat + Expert + Warrior mishmash of concepts that don't work together. To me the concept starts with the Rich Kid. We have a class that is part of a wealthy elite that is taught to be pretty good at everything. It doesn't operate off of "Inspiration" or anything so fickle, it operates off of knowledge and grace. Education and station. Already we have a concept that can accomodate the Adept/Aristocrat/Expert/Warrior gestalt. The trouble comes with the Nature/Elf/Fey and Trickster identities are thrown in. When I said something similar earlier I didn't mean that these things made the class overpowered, I meant that they don't mesh with the concept. Adding a nature and trickster spin to the class makes it a very narrow concept which feels like a Prestige Class. How many Aristocrats are tricky? Some, not all. How many tricky Aristocrats are also closely tied to nature? I would have to argue very very few. Anyway, back to the core concept of just the four NPC classes put together. From this concept we can develop mechanics. This is where I say the trouble with it being too much like the Factotum springs. The only thing this class concept has different from the Factotum is the wealth part and the social grace part. The thing is, it doesn't matter that the class is expected to be good at everything, there is just no realistic way that a person could learn all of the things to the degree of mastery that your original class implies it does. Full BAB, Full proficiencies implies a Warrior's level of martial training, and this is all most men can master. From there however the class also has spellcasting as powerful (probably more powerful than) a Duskblade's. So stopping at Duskblade we already have a conflict on what exactly makes sense for a person to be able to simultaneously master - Sword and Sorcery. Note that I'm not at all talking about power levels, I'm simply appealing to some sense of realism. It is perfectly reasonable that a person could study both martial and magical fighting and be able to combine them. However your class continues from both competent Warrior training and Adept level spellcasting moving into the category of highly skilled Expert. Duskblade manages to master sword and sorcery, but at the expense of other skills. He's simply too focused on his particular style. The Barrist Trickster on the other hand seems to be able to do everything the Duskblade can do, but with time to spare. The Barrist Trickster doesn't focus on anything. Its just good at everything, but without focus. There's a problem with realism there. If a class does a bunch of things but doesn't focus on any of them, it should be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. This is where I think your idea of class design as "The class should just succeed in 50% of encounters of equal CR to its level throughout the day," fails - there should still be some realism to how the class fundamentally operates. I know that having full BAB and all the best proficiencies doesn't automatically mean that you're good at combat, but within the system its supposed to imply that. I know that having a full caster level doesn't automatically mean that you're a good spellcaster - but it definitely doesn't hurt. I know that having lots of skills doesn't make you a Rogue, but it is supposed to represent a certain degree of focus the class has. The problem I have with the Barrist Trickster is that its focus doesn't seem to even be Jack of all Trades, it seems to be the strange Nature/Elf/Fey Trickster abilities which are mostly flavor. The fact that its actually a competent warrior, spellcaster, and troubleshooter seems to be secondary.
Chemus 04-02-08, 11:34 PM	Now, looking at the pure mechanics of the build, I see that it's very much on par with the ranger, but with a lot more feats. The clause that it's metamagic/item creation/general is kinda pointless, since general is in there. Now, switching general to something like reserve feats or some other slender feat category is something I would look into. I really think that this combines too much of what's good about both the ranger and the bard (...good? About the bard?...heh) and then ramps it up. I think that there's too much. If you removed the weapon feats and the nature and elf-y feats, I think that it'd be more focused, and more balanced (not completely, but...)
Flamewarrior 04-04-08, 03:19 PM	I've to admit that it's hard not to take it as an April's; not because of power level or concept - but because of you using Dead Levels articles abilities. :D Anyway: streamline and scale. A lot of the feats you included are absolute crap - write them as abilties, and you'll spare yourself of extraneous text, and of "OMG it's 19 feats !1!". There's a couple of "hey, take a +1 to random stuff" - take'em out (BTW, from the runic knight's abjuration CL too). Make all the random "take 10" into skill mastery, and give it for any single skill every few levels. The adept list has a bunch of save-based stuff that won't work; how about you split the adept list into 9 levels? Finally, you might want a bit of magewright (Eberron Campaign Setting - I can list specifically the relevant stuff if you don't have it) in it.
Leress 04-05-08, 07:09 PM	I've to admit that it's hard not to take it as an April's; not because of power level or concept - but because of you using Dead Levels articles abilities. :D Someone is paying attention. :P Anyway: streamline and scale. A lot of the feats you included are absolute crap - write them as abilties, and you'll spare yourself of extraneous text, and of "OMG it's 19 feats !1!". If I write them as abilities wouldn't they still be crap, just crap that only the Barrist Trickster gets. The "OMG 19 !!1!" is not my problem if some can't look past the number and read the text. There's a couple of "hey, take a +1 to random stuff" - take'em out (BTW, from the runic knight's abjuration CL too). Make all the random "take 10" into skill mastery, and give it for any single skill every few levels. Okay The adept list has a bunch of save-based stuff that won't work; how about you split the adept list into 9 levels? I will work on that. Finally, you might want a bit of magewright (Eberron Campaign Setting - I can list specifically the relevant stuff if you don't have it) in it. Doesn't that class only get spell mastery and some utilitarian spells. Now, looking at the pure mechanics of the build, I see that it's very much on par with the ranger, but with a lot more feats. The clause that it's metamagic/item creation/general is kinda pointless, since general is in there. Now, switching general to something like reserve feats or some other slender feat category is something I would look into. Metamagic and item creation feats are not general feats that is why the caveat is there. I really think that this combines too much of what's good about both the ranger and the bard (...good? About the bard?...heh) and then ramps it up. I think that there's too much. If you removed the weapon feats and the nature and elf-y feats, I think that it'd be more focused, and more balanced (not completely, but...) Okay
Flamewarrior 04-05-08, 07:56 PM	Magewright: yeah, it's said spells I was talking about. Crap: yeah, but the less crap posted to read through, the better - also, some of those actually have good flavor, so spinning them outta the feats could be good. Feat types: I think the issue raised's that fighter feats are general, and you'd said they were different, AFAICT.
bkdubs123 04-05-08, 08:19 PM	I think Flamewarrior has pretty much summed up my ramblings with a short phrase: Streamline and Scale. lol. Wow. I don't know what I was doing, I kept getting carried away and rambling on and on about flavor that doesn't seem to make sense - which it still doesn't to me by the way. However, if you do streamline and scale things I might be able to move on from that. Perhaps the flavor will come together.
Leress 04-05-08, 08:49 PM	I think Flamewarrior has pretty much summed up my ramblings with a short phrase: Streamline and Scale. lol. Wow. I don't know what I was doing, I kept getting carried away and rambling on and on about flavor that doesn't seem to make sense - which it still doesn't to me by the way. However, if you do streamline and scale things I might be able to move on from that. Perhaps the flavor will come together. You were not the only one, the flavor of the class is mutable so it is not as important as the mechanics of the class.
bkdubs123 04-05-08, 08:54 PM	Okay, glad to hear. If you really want the flavor to be mutable you might as well dump any sort of "rich kid/elf specialist/fey-heritage" stuff completely. Focus more on the mechanics - which do appear to be solid once you get to the original stuff you've got.
Leress 04-19-08, 10:36 PM	Bump, Did some adjustments to the abilities. Still working on the spell list.
ClockworkRevenge 04-20-08, 01:52 AM	Bump, Did some adjustments to the abilities. Still working on the spell list. Youre class is utterly broken. Kill it, forget it, start over.
Leress 04-20-08, 02:16 AM	Youre class is utterly broken. Kill it, forget it, start over. Umm... I will not. What exactly would you say makes the class "broken"?
bkdubs123 04-20-08, 02:33 AM	Youre class is utterly broken. Kill it, forget it, start over. Very constructive. Well done. :rolleyes:
ClockworkRevenge 04-20-08, 02:45 AM	Very constructive. Well done. :rolleyes: i like to keep it simple :dancin:
StevenO 04-20-08, 01:36 PM	Umm... I will not. What exactly would you say makes the class "broken"? See my comments in post #9. Some of what I said there maybe should change if the class has changed (I think the spellcasting has become a little more refined) but the general content is the same. You may say the Fighter has no reason to be compared to anything but here you are giving just taking off a hp (d10 down to d8) and trading 11 "fighter feats" for 10 general feats in exchange for a bunch of power ups. Six skill points each level selected from the ten class skills of your choice can push a rogue out of the "skill monkey" role. Hey look, another Good Saving Thrown. After that you get to start looking at the pile of other goodies that keep getting thrown on.
Etiquette_Gnome 04-21-08, 06:38 PM	Have you even thought about how an adept's spellcasting works? Any character can take a feat (Leadership) and not only end up with more powerful spellcasting, but an extra set of actions to use said spellcasting. This isn't even including the fact that their available spells are subpar. In regards to pushing away the rogue from the status of skill-monkey, that is unlikely. This class already suffers from MAD, so it shouldn't put that 16+ into intelligence so as to even reach the rogue in skill points. Even then, the major skill aspects of the rogue is focused towards its Trap Finding, which this class doesn't have anyway. I hope people aren't actually expecting level-appropriate combat power to be coming out of the bonus feats, as we should've learned this from the fighter. It's certainly not coming out of the spellcasting. This looks like a fighter with actual breadth. Actually taking on appropriate challenges is likely to be either digging into a pile of magic gadgets with UMD or a mounted charge build, or through well-planned ropes & pulleys with what spellcasting you do have. This is definitely not a class that will do well when used by some random schmuck, as they could easily end up only as powerful as a ranger. EDIT: Oh, and adding a mountain of stuff to a fighter chassis is actually kind of necessary. The fighter is utter crap in soo many ways, that it needs something like this to function.
sigma999 04-22-08, 09:26 PM	It does seem like an NPC class. I for one would never play it, even in an RP-noncombat-intensive campaign, but I can absolutely vouch for friends that would play it from beginning to end. It does enhance certain aspects of the Bard-like "Red Mage" archetype of jack-of-all-trades. So what's all the fuss over? If anything this is an 'underpowered' class. Edit: Oh and in case anyone forgot (or is just too blunt to factor this) the class has access to the following spells, which in select instances might help the B-Trickster become feasible in combat. Adept Spell List (SRD) Adepts choose their spells from the following list. 0 Level: create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, touch of fatigue. 1st Level: bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep. 2nd Level: aid, animal trance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web. 3rd Level: animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, lightning bolt, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, tongues. 4th Level: cure critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, stoneskin, wall of fire. 5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone. Consider removing access to General feats for the level bonus feats. This class has everything the Fighter has and then some, but with 1 less HP each level.
bkdubs123 04-22-08, 09:38 PM	The fuss is mostly knee-jerk reactions. I just don't like piling a bunch of things onto the class table and making a class out of it. The simpler I can make the concept the better, in my humble opinion, and so as a matter of taste I find many things wrong with it. Is it balanced? It certainly seems so to me.
Leress 04-22-08, 10:07 PM	See my comments in post #9. Some of what I said there maybe should change if the class has changed (I think the spellcasting has become a little more refined) but the general content is the same. I haven't changed the spellcasting You may say the Fighter has no reason to be compared to anything but here you are giving just taking off a hp (d10 down to d8) and trading 11 "fighter feats" for 10 general feats in exchange for a bunch of power ups. Because only just changing the feat type won't do much and the adding to the class brings it up from "just a dip" status. Six skill points each level selected from the ten class skills of your choice can push a rogue out of the "skill monkey" role. Umm...rogues get more skills and skill points, and trapfinding. So how is it pushing the rogue out of its slot. Hey look, another Good Saving Thrown. After that you get to start looking at the pile of other goodies that keep getting thrown on. Having two good saves doesn't really mean all that much.